Opening turbine oil cans properly?

[Jon Starr]

Hi everyone, hope no-one minds a quick (sort-of aviation related) question.

I've got a number of gas turbines I run as a hobby (M701C-500, WR27-1 and GTD-350), and I'm not sure if I'm opening the metal 1 quart oil cans the correct way.

I've just been popping a very sharp flat-head screwdriver through the lids so far, but yesterday somebody pointed out "won't you get flakes of metal in the oil?"...hmmm, didn't think of that!

So, what's the normal method that's used? Should I move to using a can-opener or might that make even more chance of generating swarf?

[spannersatcx]

I use a leatherman.

or try a search can opener (http://www.pprune.org/engineers-technicians/238400-oil-can-openers.html)

[BigJoeRice]

I punched the tops of millions of cans of Mobil Jet 2 for Pratt and Whitneys finest products using a regular can opener or a Nr 3 flat blade screwdriver. Don't forget your engine is generating microscopic bits of metal as it wears, which is why they have oil filters.

[Dr Illitout]

Hold the edge of your GS (Screw driver) with your left hand onto the lid of the can right by the edge of the lid. Then administer a sharp blow to the top of the GS with your right hand. Works every time, been doing it that way for thirty years. The person who showed me the way had been doing it that way for years previously. Never had a problem with metal flakes.
I don't think that any metal particals that you might introduce into the oil will be anything to worry about. The filters will catch them anyway.
Some of the guys I work with hold the can with the left hand and then stab the can lid with the screw driver:eek:

Rgds Dr I

[Jon Starr]

Thanks a lot for the tips. Thanks for the link as well spannersatcx, I did use the search but didn't get any results for some reason.

Glad I'm not doing something that will contaminate the oil as it's damn expensive to fill the two big engines up.

[Saint Jack]

Jon, There's more to opening a can of oil than is mentioned here. First and foremost, you must remember that modern aviation oils, both mineral and synthetic, have a number of additives in them that settle to the bottom during storage (just like a can of paint). Therefore, before attempting to open the can it's very important to turn it upside-down and shake it a few times to properly mix these additives. Then wipe the bottom of the can to ensure it's clean and take your opener and open the bottom end. Pour into the oil tank and the outgoing flow from the can will carry any remaining additives with the oil.

Metal slivers from improperly opened oil cans are regularly found in oil systems during strip-down and have some have been known to be the 'cause-for-removal'.

So what is the best way to open a can? Everyone has their own method but the best is to get hold of an old beer can opener, the lever type with a triangular head having a very sharp point. One of these was included in every case of canned beer before the advent of rip-tops and, with the beer logo on them, were collectors items. I still have a couple of 'Tiger' openers in my tool box. These are very effective, after all who wants metal slivers in their beer?

Whatever method you use, please ensure that the initial puncture is made with a single sharp point to minimise the possibility of slivers. An interesting hobby you have there!

[oil additive]

To Saint Jack... well said that man :D

[Dodo56]

St Jack thanks for an interesting contribution but I wonder if you aren't being a touch over cautious here. Firstly I have some doubts that modern oils need to be shaken to mix up the additives. The whole point of additives is they are in solution in the oil not a sludge at the bottom surely? Can you substantiate your view?

I'm also surprised at the assertion that engine failure have been traced to oil can debris. Debris perhaps, but specific to oil cans? Really? Oil cans are made from rolled sheet which is in a heat treated state to be soft rather than brittle. The action of piercing it tears the metal rather than splintering it, and provided it is done with a single action there should be nothing to generate swarf.

Your suggestion for using a purpose designed can opener is a good one, we can certainly agree on that. And something that avoids the situation of not being able to open a beer bottle/can if normal methods fail as well!

http://zenstoves.net/Supplies/Holes/ChurchKeys.jpg

[Saint Jack]

'oil additive' - Probably not, but it does seem that we attended the same school.

'dodo56' - My practice of shaking a can of oil before opening it goes back some 40 years to the time I got a smack on the back of the head from my first Chief Engineer (in commercial aviation) for not doing so when doing an oil change. He explained the bit about additives settling in the bottom of the can and it made perfect sense to me. I've been doing and teaching it ever since. Perhaps back then the oil we were using did require this procedure and perhaps modern oils don't - but old habits die hard don't they.

Actually, I have seen it written somewhere (shaking the can) but can't quite put my finger on it at the moment. If I come across it I'll come back to this thread. Can anyone help with this?

"...I'm also surprised at the assertion that engine failure have been traced to oil can debris". Please read my second paragragh again - carefully. The remark (not really an 'assertion') referred to oil systems - not engines. When I wrote this I had helicopter drive-trains in mind, apologies for the confusion. I am aware of a number of occasions where a helicopter transmission, gearbox etc. has been rejected for metal contamination traced to oil can material - you're going to have to believe me on this one. Neverthelees, I suppose this has occurred with an engine sometime, somewhere.

This 'metal can' material contamination is substantiated by my memory of a Technical Memo issued by Bristow Helicopters many, many years ago highlighting that 'metal can' debris had been found in oil systems and cautioning engineers about improper can opening. It was this same Technical Memo that recommended the use of beer can opener. For those not sure what a 'beer can opener' is, they're the second and third items from the left in Dodo56's picture.

'Dr Illitout' - "....I don't think that any metal particals that you might introduce into the oil will be anything to worry about. The filters will catch them anyway." No comment, but please don't ever come to me asking for a job.

'BigJoeRice' - ".... which is why they have oil filters". Ditto.

[allosaurus]

Lineys bite them open:}

[ericferret]

The comments on engine rejection are in my view fairly accurate. If I find a lump of metal on a chip plug or in an engine filter which is beyond the laid down limits in size I cannot assume it comes from an oil can!!!!

Today there would be 2 options. Getting the metal analysed resulting in loss of use for a few days, expensive, or rejecting the engine even more expensive.

Some engines e.g the Allison 250 have the oil pump before the filter so the metal will have possibly damaged the pump and been distorted so to be no longer recognisable as a can sliver.

Engine failure probably would not result from a can sliver, but the costs of a maintenance rejection could be nearly as high.

A number of years ago an American company supplied a can sized cap which had an opener built in. It opened the can, sealed it and had a strainer built into the spout. The spout had a cap to keep dirt out once the can was opened. I wish I could get a few of these.

[muduckace]

Ahh HogWash!! Any way you can, I say. I have known guys to cut and drill a conventional can opener to fit on a keychain. Known a guy who had a self piercing spout which was probably the offical way as it was provided by the oil manufacturer. I myself have allways been partial to the quick violent puncture of a leatherman stabbing 2 holes, one to pour and one to vent into the can.

This nonsence about one method over another better in preventing metal flakes is just that, nonsence. There is no way to prevent it from happening and if it was a big deal there would be a mandated procedure out there that would be well known world-wide. The best way to prevent engine contamination is to keep your cans covered at all times. I believe we enter far more contamination pouring out of a can that has a layer of dirt on top that has been sitting exposed to the elements for weeks on hand...

Maybe we need oil cans to evolve in the manner that beer cans did, hey we get all worked up about the oil can in the engine, what about eating a can of veggies. I would be more concerned about eating metal slivers than pouring them into a engine.

[the rim]

all good info here and i have used all of these methods in the last 40 years....but i do remember P&W putting out a line maint news letter[in the days of hard copy info]telling all about the dangers of using screw drivers to open oil cans,as they cause slivers of metal,P&W advised all to use sharp pointed can openers or the self opening spouts that mobil used to give away with cartons of oil...most guys will remember the spout pourers used to wear after about opening a dozen cans and oil would pour out the sides and we would try to repair them,and the rubber seal would swell and not seal.....aahhhh them were the days MJ2 all over the place

[Dan Winterland]

And don't forget that the anti-wear additive in turbine oil is often Tricesyl Phosphate, an organophosphate whch is very very toxic. Don't open the can with your teeth!

[blackhand]

Metal slivers from improperly opened oil cans are regularly found in oil systems during strip-down and have some have been known to be the 'cause-for-removal'.

The was several incidents in the Australian Military where jet engines and turboshaft engines were removed for excess chips in oil filters. They were traced to chrome hardening off the screwdrivers used to puncture the can, not the can its self.

Synthetic oils are agitated prior to using to ensure the anti foaming agent is mixed.
Not having enough agent causes the oil to "froth", especially in gearboxes and transmissions, with the resultant fluctuations in oil pressure.

I find it intriguing that an argument is taking place because some believe that St Jack is doing "too much" - for f sake it takes less than a second to invert the can and shake it.:ok:

Cheers
BH

[oil additive]

I've witnessed an oil change on a PT6 where the apprentice wasn't briefed in time about shaking the tins before pouring the oil in... result was when you looked through the contents sight glass after engine shutdown it was extremely frothy (resembling a milk shake).

I learned about shaking oil tins 25 years ago from an old air-force sumpy with lots of years of experience and like blackhand said, it takes less than a second to invert a can and shake it.

Oh, unlike Tricesyl Phosphate this Oil Additive is not very very toxic... I'm quite lovable really :}

[Jon Starr]

Wow, thank you everyone for all the great info.

I've sent TheCanKey people a request for a place to buy it in the UK, failing that I'll just buy 10 off them directly and hand them out to friends.

I'm very interested in what's being said about shaking the can to ensure the anti-foam agent is dispersed. I have had foaming issues in my WR27-1 (as oil additive said it looked like milkshake behind the sight glass after shutdown) and put it down to the modern BP 2380 I was using being not quite right for the engine. I have just bought a load of AeroShell 500 for it and the GTD-350 so will make damn sure to shake the hell out of the cans this time in case that was the real problem.

[boeing_eng]

ASFKAP......The tool in your picture may have been modified in the last year or so, but we found them useless!

Any trace of oil on the tool caused it to slip and the piercing edge quickly became blunt!

[punk666]

When I was filling up the IDG oil on a CFM56, I was told to pierce three holes next to each other then one hole on the opposite side.

I was told this was to help the oil flow out of the can :)

[blackhand]

Jon
Changing oil from BP2380 to Aeroshell 500
Refer to the applicable engine maintenance manual for procedure for changing engine oil type.

May cause issues with oil seals, and can dislodge carbon already formed thus blocking oil nozzles.

Not recommended for high time engines.

Cheers

BH

[Jon Starr]

Hi Blackhand, thanks for the warning. AeroShell 500 is the manufacturers recommended oil for the GTD-350, so it should be entirely suitable with any luck.

For the Williams WR27-1 the Navy only specified that the oil must meet MIL-PRF-23699 which both AeroShell 500 and BPTO 2380 do, so again hopefully everything should be ok.

It would be nice if I knew what the actual oil the Navy used in the WR27-1 was and could get hold of that I agree. All I know is that the original oil smelt like a farmyard and gave me a cracking headache.

[Coriolis]

Jon, to echo and hopefully clarify Blackhand's good warning, the issue isn't whether this oil or that is the right spec, but I've had first-hand experience of changing from one oil to another (both the right/same specification) during a period of service, and it's a very real possibility that the second oil may dislodge carbon which was deposited with the first oil. This subsequently blocks small oilways and bang goes the donk :{

If you're paying for your own repairs, I'd strongly recommend staying with the oil the engine is running on, and if you're determined to change brands OR specs (even within what's approved for the engine), ONLY put the different oil in immediately after strip/rebuild has guaranteed all the old residues have been cleaned out - not usually possible to be certain of this until full overhaul strip.

You might be lucky and get away with it, but I wouldn't risk my own hard-earned....

[Jon Starr]

Ah, I see what you guys mean. So should I have really used the older AeroShell 500 in the Williams to begin with then? Or is it not so much that the newer formulations have more of a detergent action just that they are slightly different and any difference at all can cause problems?

Edit: To clarify what I mean, when I buy an engine they are usualy in need of a lot of TLC and all have the oil systems drained. So would it be best (if the manual doesn't make a clear recommendation so you can be fairly sure what had been used) to find the oldest generation oil that meets the specification in the manual, or instead find the newest. Or are you simply inviting problems whatever you choose :(

I'll guess I'll stick with the BPTO 2380 in the Williams as that's what it's been using since I got it, hopefully as it seems to be performing well there was no damage to the oil system. It will be interesting to see if it foams still after properly shaking the cans.

I'm a little bit worried about the GTD-350 now, I got the engine fully drained of oil with no paperwork so have no idea what was in it. The manual clearly states that AeroShell 500 is the manufacturers recomended oil so hopefully that's what they were using.

[stevef]

I'd suggest that if the oil was supposed to be shaken before pouring, it would say so on the side of the tin. Let's see some hard evidence about this, not unsubstantiated passed-on advice.
Puts me in mind of the adage about not turning a piston engine over backwards by hand because it will destroy the vacuum pump vanes. Absolute nonsense - I've got it in writing from Parker Hannefin, who make the things...

[billynospares]

Personally being a herc man i have always used a fire axe for can opening and a wise old man once said to me "pour from the top wont spill a drop " :ok:

[TURIN]

Right. I am now thoroughly depressed. I, and every line mech/tech/eng I have ever met always opens a can with a GS or Leatherman type tool. Never seen anyone give it a good shake either, or witnessed 'frothing' in the sight glass, whether it be RR, GE, PW, IAE or CFM. (Not saying it doesn't happen).
For nearly 30 years I have been doing it wrong!

Apparently. :suspect:

If anyone has documented reference material that can be used to back up some of the above statements I promise to change my 'practice'. In the meantime I won't be applying for a job on helicopters run by one of ex-Bristows finest. :ok: :E

[Jon Starr]

TURIN, I have just rung Shell lubricants tech line (to see if they had a piece of paper on the matter) and the word from them is that as long as the oil has been stored at the correct temperature and is in-date that the additives should not separate. They did say that shaking or rotating the can before use is perfectly fine and will have no detrimental effect on the oil, so anyone that wants to can do so :)

For my part as I have seen frothing I'll give it a good shake this time just to eliminate any possibility of that being the cause.

She doesn't think that they have any guidance at all on how to open the metal cans, and had never been asked that question before. Guess it may be a liability thing if they give any advice.

[Dodo56]

When I was filling up the IDG oil on a CFM56, I was told to pierce three holes next to each other then one hole on the opposite side.

I was told this was to help the oil flow out of the can http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif


Air flows a lot easier than oil, so you pour from 2-3 holes and have a single vent on t'other side. Speeds up the pour and helps stop "glugging" (technical term?)

Good gen on the shaking/piercing background, I agree it shouldn't be necessary to skake modern oils after proper storage, though as the man says it won't do any harm either. And the point about flakes of chrome plate from screwdrivers rings true also. Again, I just couldn't see flakes coming from the cans themselves.

[EGT Redline]

What is all this nonsense about opening oil cans correctly? Why waste your money on some fancy new tool when you can simply gather up and use the already opened half empty cans that have been left in the racks of the line vans. Failing that, you could go to the zipper and grab a couple of used tins that have been rolling around in the back. A bit of water sloshing around in them won't do no harm, it's all liquid at the end of the day.

[blackhand]

If anyone has documented reference material that can be used to back up some of the above statements I promise to change my 'practice'From Bell 407 Maintenance manual Chapter 12.

If the oil pressure fluctuates and oil foams,
drain the engine oil system (Paragraph 12-
15) and replace the oil with new oil.
If you use oil stored in small containers,
shake the container to mix the additives
before you pour the oil in the engine oil
tank.Is in every turbine engine maintenance manual that I have used.

SteveF - using an ad hominem in this argument is adds nothing.

Cheers
BH

[TURIN]

Thanks for that blackhand. I'll have a look and see if the manuals I use concur. :ok:

[stevef]

SteveF - using an ad hominem in this argument is adds nothing.

You're quite right, Blackhand - ads aren't allowed on Pprune threads. :)

[blackhand]

SteveF for your edification -

ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument toward the person" or "argument against the person"), is an argument which links the validity of a premise to a characteristic or belief of the person advocating the premise.To wit - your linking of rotating a piston engine against the DOR and effect on airpump carbon rotors. to the current discussion on oil cans.

Cheers
BH

[Jon Starr]

Just to get back on the topic of opening the cans, I have 10 CanKeys in the post at the momment.
As I only need one one for myself and couple for friends there are quite a few spare.

If anyone would like one gratis then please PM me with your address and I'll stick one in the post. Or if you live near Brize Norton camp then feel free to come grab one and I can bore you with my engine collection ;)

[stevef]

Thanks, Blackhand, I'm quite aware of the meaning of ad hominem - it was a feeble attempt at humour regarding web advertisement policy. ;)
I stick by my earlier comment that if it was necessary to agitate the can's content, it would be endorsed on the container. Of interest, I searched the web regarding the subject and no turbine oil supplier stated that it was necessary to do so prior to replenishment.
I rather think that they're the experts on constituents in suspension.
I've no problem with being proved wrong but it's equally important to question dubious theories, hence my comment regarding vacuum pumps. So, where's the evidence from lubrication manufacturers?
:confused:

[Avtrician]

I remember the incident as did Blackhand, We stopped using chromed screwdrivers (RAAF) Also the oil spouts were banned as they were chrome plated and it sometimes chipped off.

Thes days, I recall the tendency is to use a 1/4 " sharpened Stainless spike fitted with a nurled 2" Brass handle. Two quick pops and you are done. The Marlin spike on a good knife works well too.

[Runaround Valve]

Back in the early 60`s at the company that I worked for we opened one litre oil cans with a combination piercer and pourer. Told to stop using them as plating on the opener was getting into the oil. So we then opened them with any handy screwdriver without any adverse problems.
So we then later had about a twenty gallon oil dolly that we pulled about to use, this was refilled as needed from fourty four gallon oil drums.
One of us asked why did the pipe on the pump on the oil drum was short of the bottom of by some five gallons or so. Why not lower it so as to get all of the oil out out of the drum.
I forget what the answer was, there was some reason, the pipe was not ever lowered. But re shaking a one litre can before using, seems strange you have to shake a one litre, but we never shaked the twenty gallon oil dolly or the fourty four gallon oil drum.
A canditate for Snopes ??? Urban legend ???

[Tinwacker]

I have read with great interest a long thread on how to open an oil can:ok:
Almost as long as a previous report on pilots pay...

40+ years was I doing it correctly??
Did I inadvertantly seize an engine ah will never know!!
Should I change my habits, too late probably:hmm:
but always learning so please teach this old dog a new trick.

When I was filling up the IDG oil on a CFM56, I was told to pierce three holes next to each other then one hole on the opposite side.
I was told this was to help the oil flow out of the can

Why have I always used an IDG oil gun?
Simply clamping the oil can and with one central push of a striker pierced the can.
If any metal was detached from the can it would be stopped by the inbuilt filter element contained in the IDG gun.

Still wondering about pouring the oil into the IDG... how much ended on the ground me thinks...

To late for TW:p

[mitzy69]

company I worked for 'penny wise pound foolish one' supplied hydraulic oil can opener which was painted yellow, and the yellow paint used to flake off nicely from opener and go into the oil
about chrome plating coming off and going into to oil, I used to get the chrome plating flaking off spanners and imbedding into my hand I think the nice black industrial spanners are better but do not shine as well.

[GAZIN]

I must admit to being slightly relieved at the way this thread has developed, for the last 30+ years I have never consciously shaken an oil can & have used a variety of methods to open the cans. I mainly used a screw driver until progressing to the can opener tool on a leatherman in recent years.
I have NEVER seen an idg or csd gravity filled though!:ooh:

[Peter Fanelli]

OK, after wading through this thread I am forced to ask....

Just how many mechanics does it take to open a can of oil and add it to an engine?
:E

Real engines require a 5 gallon drum to be carried out on the wing for top up.


Puts me in mind of the adage about not turning a piston engine over backwards by hand because it will destroy the vacuum pump vanes. Absolute nonsense - I've got it in writing from Parker Hannefin, who make the things...


And the more that get broken the more they sell.

[blackhand]

Gazin.ASKAP, Tinwacker and others:

I ask you the following:
Is opening an oil can with the correct tool an unsafe workshop practice?
Do you consider inverting oil cans before opening an unsafe workshop practice?

It behooves us as senior maintenance personnel to impart high maintenance standards to those we supervise and advise.

Using a screwdriver to open oil cans shows less than professional standards, or perhaps incorrect instruction on the use of hand tools at the base trade level. There are also OHS issue if one is using palm of the hand to strike the screwdriver.

To shake or not to shake. Appears from the posts here, to be a matter of personal experience, those that have seen frothing of the oil and those that haven't.

Those that have experienced oil foaming/frothing of turbine oil - mobil jet11 and Aeroshell 555 in my case, will err on the side of safety and shake the can. Is it akin to saying a prayer?

Peter Fanelli
Real engines require a 5 gallon drum to be carried out on the wing for top up.
And 23 inches at idle:ok:

Hi mate, I had to laugh about PH service bulletin when it came out several or more years ago, just after I had a pilot break two on an Islander, he wound the props through several times ADOR - less than 50 hours TIS.

Cheers
BH

[Krystal n chips]

" Using a screwdriver to open oil cans shows less than professional standards, or perhaps incorrect instruction on the use of hand tools at the base trade level. There are also OHS issue if one is using palm of the hand to strike the screwdriver."............:ooh:

I was mortified to learn that, over the years, I ( and numerous colleagues )have clearly been guilty of such flagrant acts. I am thus indebted for this advice. Indeed, with regard to workshop practices, clearly the instructors at Halton (many years ago now) were mere amateurs with little or no experience in this area.

I hate to use the old adage "never check, always assume"...cough....but do I take it you have never actually worked in a Line environment ( Mil or Civil ) and are thus more office engineering orientated shall we say ?.

Just curious though as to where your organisation, Air Utopia, operates from........:E

[Runaround Valve]

Over the years I opened many Esso TJ15, Esso 2380 amd Mobil Jet 2 oil cans. You would think that if it was necessary to shake the cans before opening, that it would be written on them.

[flame_bringer]

I wonder why most engineers are stingy to buy a can's opener and prefer using flat head screw drivers to open them .
Its only for about 1 buck ..

[Kiwiconehead]

I wonder why most engineers are stingy to buy a can's opener and prefer using flat head screw drivers to open them

Probably the fact that theres only so much crap you can carry around on your belt or in your pocket on the the line, flat blade opens cowls, removes panels, pokes things in the cabin, levers things and opens cans. Can openers just open cans.

[SeldomFixit]

Fer Christ's sake - does it say shake before opening on the bloody can ? The manufacturer would add that if needed :mad:

[TURIN]

I wonder why most engineers are stingy to buy a can's opener and prefer using flat head screw drivers to open them .
Its only for about 1 buck ..

Yup, most line mechs/techs/engs have purchased these very expensive can openers called leathermans, (other multitools are available but that's a whole new thread) Sixty-odd quid gets you a shiny Victorinox Swisstool. So far from being stingy, they are actually a bit flash with the cash and will do anything to save a trip back to the van for the correct tool. :}
The GS is old hat now unless opening cowlings or, gawd forbid, actually undoing a large screw!:eek:

[Blacksheep]

One never opens oil cans. One has a chap to do that. ;)

[blackhand]

Hey Jon
Have you had an opportunity to refill the oil and ground run/test fly?

Cheers
BH

[Jon Starr]

Hey blackhand, nope haven't filled the engines up yet. I'm waiting for my CanKeys to arrive.

The GTD-350 will be filled this coming weekend, although it's not quite ready for a full run yet (need to do some welding work on the exhaust deflectors) so it'll just be an oil pressure test on the starter.

The Williams needs some hydraulic work and I sheared a bolt on the rear turbine housing on Sunday, so that's probably a month and a lot of swearing before I can refill that one.

I've taken your advice (and that of the people who PM'd me!) to not change the oil on the Williams, so it will get BPTO 2380 again when I do fill it.


If you're interested what I'm up to I have all of my engine work online at http://www.cursorkeys.com (http://www.cursorkeys.com/), thanks again to you and everyone else for all the help and tips.

[lordofthewings]

New a bloke that use to open oil cans with a an old valve stem sharpened to a point...Good area for knocking it with the palm of your hand...
Personally i use a flat blade, mainly due to convenience....never can find a can opener when you trying to do theright thing...

[blackhand]

Just curious though as to where your organisation, Air Utopia, operates from.Some technicians require only a blade screwdriver, two size shifting spanners and a large hammer to carry out complex aircraft maintenance tasks:}

Meanwhile, here at Air Utopia, technicians are paid to use the correct tool for each task.:ok:

Air Utopia's Engineer Trainer:E:E, has identified the flat blade screwdriver as the tool to be used for .......(wait for it) screwing slotted screws. At times people have tried to use it for phillip headed screws, pry bar, tooth pick, haemorrhoid probe, and to short starter motor terminals - he is still adamant that is for slotted screws.

Is like old saying from my russian friend - when all you have is hammer treat all problem like nail.
But we are not Russian Peasants, we are Aircraft Maintenance Engineers and as much as possible are REQUIRED to carry out tasks with the correct tools.

Mr Krystal and chips, I doubt very much that you are a trainer of engineers as you claim in your profile.

Cheers
BH

[Krystal n chips]

" Some technicians require only a blade screwdriver, two size shifting spanners and a large hammer to carry out complex aircraft maintenance tasks"

Alas, not quite........a rag and a pen are also required. The horse hair shirt is, presumably, standard working dress in Air Utopia. :rolleyes:.....otherwise, sums up my tools nicely.

But thanks for your comments. I can use them as a feature of my Flight Safety lessons to demonstrate to students the dangers of myopic egocentricity within a maintenance environment. :E

[Dodo56]

Just a suggestion to go easy on the syllables in your lessons there Krystal, should you be teaching folks who prefer to improvise than use the right tools for the job ;)

[TURIN]

Just a suggestion to go easy on the syllables in your lessons there Krystal, should you be teaching folks who prefer to improvise than use the right tools for the job

Quite right. Big words tend to confuse people. You should concentrate on the Syllabus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syllabus) too. :8;)

[Dodo56]

Quite right. Big words tend to confuse people. You should concentrate on the Syllabus (http://redirectingat.com/?id=42X487496&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FSyllabus) too. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/nerd.gifhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif

Definitely, and never confuse "syllabus" with "syllables (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syllable)" :p

[Krystal n chips]

Dodo,

You can relax.....I have long subscribed to the K.I.S.S principle...:)...even when teaching baby engs the fabled "best practice"....as one always does.....albeit with some practical engineering of course.....such as how to open oil cans ( various ) for example.....;):E

[Swannecker]

4 pages referenced to opening a bloody tin of oil.....quality :D

[Nopax,thanx]

We ain't started yet :ok: I've got a couple of combined opener/spout thingys that I got in the local hardware shop years ago. Just plunge into said can and you have a nice curvy spout to pour with. Keeps your hands clean for more important stuff like bacon sarnies. Very Gucci :cool:

[Dodo56]

Just you wait until someone starts a "best bacon sarnie" thread. 16 pages, guaranteed.

[Dr Illitout]

Some body will tell you that you and the rest of humanity have been eating them wrong.

Rgds Dr I

[TURIN]

For Example...

Tomato ketchup on a bacon sarnie is an ABOMINATION!!!

Just my opinion of course. :O

[Flightmech]

So, when servicing the oil on a 747-100 with PW JT9's, are you telling me it's not best practice to open the oil cans with a can opener with "Greene King" stamped on it, obtained from your local when you were an apprentice, not invert, then pour the oil cans into said Homebase watering can with self made quart markings on the side and add to oil tank until such tank is full without said frothing, thus saving time.:eek::ok:

[TURIN]

That reminds me, Flightmech of a supervisor who used to belt hell out of the tins to get them into the right shape, allowing the full contents to be poured into the neck of the filler instead of down the inside of the cowlings. JT9s, dontcha just love em.

Now I think about it, his action would have certainly shaken the contents. :hmm:

[Dr Illitout]

USING A BEER CAN OPENER TO SERVICE AN AIRCRAFT ENGINE!!!!!!!!
You will NEVER get a job with Air Utopia.
It's un professionable and the action of using it is a health and safety issue!!!

TURIN.
Bacon should be crispy, No sauce and on brown bread.

Rgds Dr I

[Exup]

Using a perfectly good beer can opener to open oil cans is just wrong & should be discouraged if not made illegal. Use it for what its is designed for BEER.

[blackhand]

USING A BEER CAN OPENER TO SERVICE AN AIRCRAFT ENGINE!!!!!!!!
You will NEVER get a job with Air Utopia.
It's un professionable and the action of using it is a health and safety issue!!!

Here at Air Utopia, we find that most Newbie Engineers have no problems lifting their standards to the exacting standards displayed by existing staff. :)

Air Utopia's SMS allows for the use of oil can opener as beer can opener only after it has been licked clean.

Bacon sangers must be safety checked by Chief Engineer or his delegate.

BH

[Krystal n chips]

Remiss of me I know, but there is one tool that deserves a mention due to it's versatile uses.......the Ice Pick !.....invaluable I find for equalising the flow when pouring oil from cans for example.....and as rigging pin.....and essential for changing the door damper cable on the 737.....

[nodrama]

Ask a technical question on this forum, and you're lucky if you get 10 replies.......

Ask what's the best way to open an oil can, 78 posts to date!!

Aren't we a strange breed? :)

[Dr Illitout]

"Aren't we a strange breed?"

We are Engineers, the strangest of breeds:E

Notice that there is a lot of things we were all taught waaaay back too.
"Flight International" coined a phrase about pilots once, "ARIA" Always Remembered Instructors Advice. looks like it applies to us aswell.
Now, were's my GS?

Rgds Dr I

[tristar 500]

Who are all these namby pamby`s who use can openers on oil tins??

In my day we used a GS screwdriver & a sharp bang on the handle with the flat of the hand!! It still went down the inside of the cowling though!!!

tristar 500 :ok:

[flame_bringer]

Kiwiconehead (http://www.pprune.org/members/18185-kiwiconehead)

The engineers that i work with use the flat head screw driver for everything they intend to do , even at times for opening philips screws :p
And one time i was working with some engineer and he was asked to service the hydraulics and i went up with him to assist him but anyways, as he had to open the skydrol can , he pulled out his magical flat head screw driver and kept striking the can from the top untill he pierced it and since it was a mighty hot day that time ( 40 C :ooh: ) as he pierced it the skydrol splashed onto his face and on me due to diffrential pressure of the air inside the can and outside .It was quite terrible :bored:
Albiet he regreted it a big time that day, he kept doing it even after that story and up till today he still opens skydrol cans with flat head screw drivers .:\

[lordofthewings]

That would be why you hold a rag around the end of the screwdriver :ok:
Think the diff pressure thing is funny though...

[blackhand]

That would be why you hold a rag around the end of the screwdriver

Or may be a subtle hint that you are using the incorrect tool.:O

This is the danger of teaching "bush" maintenance to new engineers, the improvised methods become the norm.

Cheers
BH

[MrMark757]

Reminds me of the way to get the whole can into a DC9/MD80 APU oil tank.

[NutLoose]

My preferred method is to get someone else to do it......


Bacon is loverly jubberly done in a Microwave...... Marco Pierre White came up with that little tip :) 2 slices about 2 to 3 mins

[kingstonboy]

And what has the "A" license system ever done for me ? stopped me pouring bl***y oil after some 25 + years what progress ! incidentally the fact that all the cans are bounced all around the airfield in the vans must at least slightly mix the contents ?(cant comment on hangar chaps though) you cant beat a sturdy can opener and two holes 180 apart, using the GS too bl***y painful ,as you will be only too aware if you have ever oiled the venerable JT9

[stevef]

Scenario: B747 parked up for a couple of days...
Pilot: 'Good morning! I'll just sign the Tech Log and then we'll be off.'
Engineer (sucks through teeth): 'Sorry, mate - I'll have to drain the oils and give 'em a good shake first. Come back this afternoon.' :)

[NutLoose]

Lol. The use by dates always got me, I had someone say this tin is out of date by a day, No probs I will get you a new one, but remember it will still be a few hundred thousand years old at least :)

[ricardian]

The use by dates always got me, I had someone say this tin is out of date by a day, No probs I will get you a new one, but remember it will still be a few hundred thousand years old at least
A bit like the bottles of water that have been filler with crystal-clear water from an aquifer where the water has lain for thousands of years - yet there's a sell-by date on every bottle!

[Stiffco]

From post # 6

Therefore, before attempting to open the can it's very important to turn it upside-down and shake it a few times to properly mix these additives. Then wipe the bottom of the can to ensure it's clean and take your opener and open the bottom end.

Could explain why some of my colleagues return to the crew room in such a state ... :ooh:

[onetrack]

Regarding the additives to oil; there has to be an understanding as to the two separate methods of adding additives to a solution such as oil.
There are additives that chemically bond to the molecular structure of the oil, and there are additives that can be finely powdered additives that are reliant on suspension in the oil, by their fine particle size.

The former will never settle out in the oil; the latter will, eventually. Oil companies rely on regular turnover of stocks of everything they produce. They never store production items for long periods.
Thus, any additives added, have to be stable, both as regards chemical degradation, and as regards separation from the oil... within a reasonable, expected time frame, of useage.

Thus, in most corporate and constant-use operations, the issue of oil additive separation is of no consequence, as the oil is produced and turned over rapidly, and never gets to sit around for long.

However, in a situation where low useage and low turnover arises, whereby the oil may be held in storage for lengthy periods of time (> 12 months)... it IS likely that SOME separation, of the finely divided additives that are held in suspension, will occur.

Thus, if the oil you are using has been stored without movement for a period of more than 12 mths, an inversion and shake will be of benefit in making sure that the finely-dispersed additives in suspension are properly dispersed.
For most operators, there is no need to even remotely consider this angle, as turnover of oil stocks is rapid, and there is inadequate time for any form of oil degradation to take place.

[grounded27]

you cant beat a sturdy can opener and two holes 180 apart, using the GS too bl***y painful ,as you will be only too aware if you have ever oiled the venerable JT9

Yeah we had a system down, 2 men and a lift truck, full case of oil on the back, one drove and opened 3 holes (2 for pouring one to vent) and the other guy never got off the lift until all 4 engines were full. You could pretty much bet on a quart an hour per engine on the -a's through J's. The "Q" seemed to tighten up a bit.

[Ricktye]

Not sure about other models, but the Bell 206 Series and 407 Maintenance Manuals make specific mention of always well shaking the oil cans before adding oil to either the power train or engine. But hey, what would an aircraft developer, manufacture know? Not like they did any research or anything..........

R...

[satmstr]

So should i start shaking my skydrol cans as well now...:p

[blackhand]

So should i start shaking my skydrol cans as well now...:p

Only if you are putting it in an engine - :p

BH