F/A Falls from Qantas Aircraft at Uluru

[Bankstown]

It certainly sounds like it could have been worse, landing head first!
Flight attendant falls from plane on tarmac | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/travel/news/flight-attendant-falls-from-plane-on-tarmac/story-e6frfq80-1225837302751)

[The Green Goblin]

Thats got to be worth some coin!

[flitegirl]

She really is so lucky that she only had minor injuries! One must presume she was a Qantaslink (B717) crew memeber because on the 737s the ground staff close the door while the stairs are still in place.

[empty kitchen]

Qantaslink are turned around by same Qantas ground crew as 737, and usually with stairs in place too..

[flitegirl]

It will be interesting from a safety/learning perspective to hear how this accident therefore occurred.

Why was the door left open with no stairs/catering truck in place and why was the flight attendant closing the door on her own?

[Jabawocky]

Lucky compared to the woman who fell here in Brisbane a year or two back who died.

[neville_nobody]

She is very lucky if it is only minor injuries......

[YPJT]

If it was fwd left door that the crew member fell from they you have to ask why the stairs were pulled away with the door still open. My understanding of the ground handler SOPs is that the stairs remain against the aircraft until the door is closed and the handle turned to the locked position.

[beaver_rotate]

The stairs are not to be removed until the #1 CC (B717) closes the door. Seems as though they were training in the rock. She is very lucky; it is a fair height to fall from.

[RENURPP]

Why was the door left open with no stairs/catering truck in place and why was the flight attendant closing the door on her own?

It would be more interesting to hear why the stairs were removed while the door was still opened.
The Cabin Crew always close the door on the 717.

[dizzylizzy]

717 Door ops require the F/A to open & close the door, not ground staff. 737 Door ops, F/A cracks door and ground staff complete door opening. Door closure require ground staff to move door to cracked position and F/A then completes door closure.

Looks like there may be change of procedures for the 717 crew.

[YPJT]

DizzyLizzy, would you agree though that this would not occur if the stairs hadn't been pulled away prior to the door being closed?

Doesn't need a change of procedure. If the current procedure was followed we wouldn't be having this conversation.

[nitpicker330]

At CX doors are ALWAYS opened ( and closed ) by the ground staff from the outside.

Opening the doors from the inside while armed will blow the slide ( obviously )
Opening from the outside will disarm the slide if left armed and thus prevent and accidental activation.

The cabin crew give the ground staff a thumbs up via the door viewing window to confirm the door is in Manual. Before fully opening the ground staff ( if possible ) visually check the girt bar is not attached at the bottom of the door sill ( by cracking the door a little ) and on the Airbus check the warning light is not on.

This seems to work ok with CX.

The only time the door can be opened from the inside is with the Captains permission under exceptional circumstances and generally most Captains brief the ISM to do the opening. ( or indeed he does it himself )

[ditch handle]

The same policies are in place at QF.

Perhaps the SOPs were not followed.

[Capn Bloggs]

Nitpicker,
Opening from the outside will disarm the slide if left armed and thus prevent and accidental activation.

Not on the aircraft it question it won't. :=

[carpe_jugulum]

Nitpicker - Doesn't CX trust the CC to operate a door - and 'cracking' a door to check the girt bar from the outside is the dumbest thing I have heard of. Have seen this activate a slide with disastrous consequences.

If the CC can't operate a door, they shouldn't be out in public.........:E

As Bloggs says, this procedure won't work on a 717.

Dizzy Lizzy - no change required to procedure, just staff required to obey current policy.....:O

[ditzyboy]

The same policies are in place at QF. Perhaps the SOPs were not followed.

NJS/Cobham have very different door opening and closing procedures, as mentioned by dizzylizzy. Apparently, for door closing, the ground staff are required to keep the stairs in place until completed. This did not occur.

[nitpicker330]

1/ ground staff knock on door
2/ cabin crew give thumbs up that door is disarmed
3/ ground staff move the handle part way and once the bottom flap of the door moves inwards ( 744 777 ) they can see clearly the girt bar is not connected to the floor. As yet the door hasn't opened enough to pull the slide out.
4/ they then open the door fully and if all the above fail to happen the door should disarm anyway

there is a lot of redundancy in place to try and prevent the Swiss cheese holes lining up.

You may say cracking the door a bit is silly but it is a Boeing recommended proceedure and IT WORKS FINE.

[nitpicker330]

And no, CX doesn't trust the CC to open or close the door for the simple reason it adds one more barrier to prevent people accidentally activating slides AND FALLING OUT!!

[RENURPP]

SOP's were followed by the COBHAM cabin Crew
SOP's were NOT followed by QANTAS groundstaff.

Simple

[oil additive]

"Opening the doors from the inside while armed will blow the slide ( obviously )
Opening from the outside will disarm the slide if left armed and thus prevent and accidental activation."

Hey Nitpicker330... better learn your door systems buddy. Opening the 717 door from the outside does not disarm the slide and many other airliners are the same ;)

[nitpicker330]

Yeah I was talking about big planes, not those Tonka Toyz you boys drive!!

Still, if they left the door opening and closing to the ground staff the FA wouldn't have fallen out would she?

Mmm

[Capn Bloggs]

I was talking about big planes, not those Tonka Toyz you boys drive!!

At least we do drive them...:E

[High-Bypass]

Yeah I was talking about big planes, not those Tonka Toyz you boys drive!!

and here I was thinking the B737 was same cat as 717??

And atm if anyone wants to go to AYQ, they got no choice but to go QF/NJS. Good to see you guys are operating unity....or not.

P.S. Nitpicker, if I worked @ QF, I would put my size 12 fair dinkum where the sun don't shine when it comes to your attitude.

[QSK?]

High-bypass

...if anyone wants to go to AYQ, they got no choice but to go QF/NJS

Not any more; the rumour is VB is starting a daily SYD-AYQ service in August.

[oil additive]

Hey Nitpicker, I was playing nicely, but you're obviously a tosser!

FYI - I don't fly em, I fix em and I've fixed everything up to and including 747's

I reckon you should get yourself into Air Safety Investigation... you're a natural :}

[nitpicker330]

Hey settle it was meant tongue in cheek................sorry if I offended.:ok:

I'd actually like to fly a 717 or 73 around Oz again, I think you've got a nice gig and given half a chance I'd swap jobs any day. Although multple 5 sector days might wear a little thin after a while.:)

back to the topic now.........

[hongkongfooey]

Careful Nit, those charter boys are a bit sensitive :}

[RENURPP]

5 sector days

I haven't ever done one of those.
3 is the normal maximum with 2 being standard 9 -11 days a month.

[YPJT]

Regardless of anything else - DON'T BLOODY MOVE THE STAIRS UNTIL THE DOOR IS CLOSED!

[bush mechanics]

Its not Uluru,Its Farking AYERS ROCK.!!!!!!politicly sensitve wa%^$#s

[ampclamp]

qf policy not to open a door without correct stand or steps in place.
No guarantee the stairs were correct/serviceable and the door could not be closed wthout moving them.Hard enough to get correct equipment in YSSY let alone in the boonies.Maybe just an honest mistake.

I hope the FA is ok, anyone heard lately?

[RENURPP]

The stairs were 100% serviceable.
The door wasn't opened until the stairs were in place, although the 717 is not operated by QF so their policy has little relevance to what the CC did, however QF policy certainly would be reflected in COBHAM policy.
QF policy should have been followd by groundstaff. The stairs were removed whilst the door was still open, it really is quite simple. It was a mistake.

The CC is OK considering. More tests to determine the longer term outcome.

[ampclamp]

thanks renurpp for the background info.Glad the f/a is ok.Could have been much worse.

[Icarus2001]

DON'T BLOODY MOVE THE STAIRS UNTIL THE DOOR IS CLOSED!

On some aircraft the door CANNOT be closed until the steps are moved.

Some steps require that they are moved to allow the door to be closed.

[YPJT]

Some steps require that they are moved to allow the door to be closed Yes and for those types, specific SOPs are also in place. We are talking about a B-717 though. I agree with RENURPP in that it was a simple mistake that I have also witnessed on occasion but this time with the unfortunate result that the established procedures were designed to prevent.

[Capn Bloggs]

And as experience levels continue to decline, it is even more essential that SOPs be followed to prevent this sort of thing. I wonder how many times this has occurred (stairs being removed prematurely) before the incident, and if so why didn't anybody say "hey, what are you doing"?

I suspect though that yet another rule will be created to "fix" the problem. :hmm:

[YPJT]

I suspect though that yet another rule will be created to "fix" the problem Spot on Bloggsie!
I just read an Qantas safety notice that says the ground crew member is to be on the top of the platform or stairs and witness the door being closed. What they couldn't do that just as easily from the bottom of the stairs?:ugh:
This blameless culture sucks. Everything is at fault except the individual/s that caused the problem.

[Capt Claret]

This blameless culture sucks. Everything is at fault except the individual/s that caused the problem.

I'm not privy to any details as to how this accident happened, or who is at fault.

My experience both within and without the aviation industry is that with most cock-ups the individual at the end of the chain is in the spotlight, and this focus is used to absolve those higher up the chain from any shared responsibility, or from doing anything meaningful to prevent a reoccurrence. :sad:

[Keg]

QF doesn't have a 'no blame' framework, we have a 'just culture' framework. There is a subtle but significant difference.

Was this a 737 or a 717? If it was the latter will it be Cobham that looks at how this went pear shaped or will QF safety get involved?

[Capn Bloggs]

It was a 717 but QF staff do the ground handling.

[ditzyboy]

Just an observation... When base in PER in 2006 I observed NJS 717s with the R1 door open without a catering vehicle in sight. Is that SOP?

When I worked for an airline where the cabin crew were responsible for door closure we were forbidden to place our feet outside the aircraft (onto the stairs) whilst closing the door. What is Cobham's policy in relation to this?

[dizzylizzy]

ditzyboy: I believe it is an SOP of theirs and then put up the safety barrier. Also the L1 door closure if completed by cabincrew as there is a 'squeeze to release' handle the crew need to use to release the bayonett which anchors the door to the aircraft. Correct me if i'm wrong.

[ampclamp]

will QF safety get involved?

Gawd help them if so!! There'll be 10 eq online safety courses for them. :yuk:
I know qf dont want to hurt people but I get the distinct feeling its more about lessening their liability.
Recently got a new type of 737 tow bar.Safety group recommended some changes.Nah, qf pass around a bit of paper saying you've been trained & been warned about the numerous safety issues and sign it.Bl00dy things still can crush your foot but if you do its your fault.

[Worrals in the wilds]

Those of you who work at a particular major airport may fondly remember the 'safe stair climbing' course. I still treasure the certificate that states I am competent to use stairs. :}

[Pinky the pilot]

'safe stair climbing' course

Worrals; You're not joking either, are you?:confused:

May one enquire as to the content of this 'course,' and its benefits?

I think I shall have another glass of good Aussie Red.:ok:

[Worrals in the wilds]

Pinky, sadly no, I never do... :E

The content involved a two hour classroom session (complete with powerpoint) followed by several hours of climbing up and down aerobridge stairs in various aircraft configurations while being assessed from below by the accredited stair trainer. One of the participants was rather unfit and nearly passed out after the fourth configuration, which possibly would have made him Australia's first safety course related fatality.

The benefits were to absolve the stair owner of liability in the event of someone doing something unapproved. There had been an incident where a person had been seriously injured on said stairs (due, unfortunately, to their own ineptitude) and the owner was worried about future lawsuits. The siren, flashing light and big sign saying 'do not use when stairs are in motion' were not considered sufficient warning.

Cheers to your red! Mine's Italiano tonight, but the sentiment's the same. :}

(P.S. I do not want to make light of this F/A's accident and I'm very glad she's not more seriously injured. If safety procedures need to be tightened up then so be it. I just get tired of OH&S for its own sake, as IMO it's become a self perpetuating industry).