cyqx-mpto

[givmi]

Hi guys,

I'm scheduled for a trip from CYQX (Gander) to MPTO (Tocumen/Panama) and back.

Since I haven't been down in that region for a longer period of time I need some clarification:

The oceanic clearance for the leg (CYQX-MPTO) it will be given to you by domestic...you do not have to request it on a delivery frequency like you do on an east-west NAT crossing!?

For the return (MPTO-CYQX) where and from whom will you get the oceanic clearance?

Any other pertinent info worth knowing?

Thanks!

[eckhard]

Here's some pertinent info: CYQX is Gander and CYHZ is Halifax!

Seriously though, I'm sure that was just a typo.

For the southbound leg, you may need to get your Oceanic Clearance before take-off, as the distance to the boundary is quite short. Otherwise you could try Gander radio on 122.37. During the busy night period, you could try Gander Delivery on 128.45 or 119.42.

Northbound, my understanding is that your 'normal' ATC clearance will take you from Panama all the way through the WATRS area and you won't need an Oceanic Clearance until you cross 38 30.0N (the boundary between WATRS and NAT MNPS). You will get this from NY Oceanic (ARINC).

Remember, you need MNPS approval for the NAT airspace and RNP10 for WATRS, as well as an HF radio.

Good luck!

Eck.

[givmi]

Sorry you're right...typo! has been corrected!...guess I better catch some sleep ;)

Thanks again for your help Eck!

[givmi]

Hey Eck...are you sure you get the southbound oceanic clearance from Gander and not from New York? Do you have to call them or will they advise you. thx

[galaxy flyer]

There is no oceanic clearance, CYQX will clear you to the destination and fly it. The WATRS, under New York OAC, does not have a separate "oceanic" clearance procedure, unlike the NATS. You will need RNP 10 and HF, however.

You will relay position reports thru New York ARINC, however. In my experience, the only place I have ever seen an oceanic clearance is in NAT airspace.

GF

[eckhard]

Well I guess it depends on the routing, but on my chart the direct line between CYQX and MPTO goes through a fair chunk of NY Oceanic (NAT not WATRS) airspace. About 240nm between FOCUS and SELIM to be exact.

You will definitely need an Oceanic Clearance to fly on that route.

If, however, you routed further west, via VITOL or WHALE, you could avoid the western extremities of NAT airspace and remain within the Gander (domestic), Moncton and Boston FIRs. Then you would enter the WATRS at MARIG or SAVIK.

Alternatively, you could avoid all 'offshore' airspace structures and route entirely within domestic airspace until Miami, then hop across Havana and Kingston FIRs to Panama. This would add several hundred miles to the route, unfortunately.

As far as getting the southbound clearance is concerned, you will get it from Gander, because you must be in possession of the clearance BEFORE you enter NY NAT airspace. Northbound, you get the clearance from NY while you are in the WATRS, again BEFORE you enter NY NAT airspace.

Capisch?

[galaxy flyer]

I've flown that route, NY didn't give us an oceanic clearance. No harm in asking, but I don't think NY gives oceanic clearance in their airspace for flights transiting their airspace.

In the same way, you don't get a oceanic clearance between KBOS and KNYC do not need clearances to eastern Caribbean and eastern South America.

GF

[eckhard]

Hi GF,

I've flown that route (many times) and was always given an Oceanic Clearance! I think the difference is that we were starting from Miami/Orlando and finishing in London so maybe New York included the clearance through their airspace (with the Gander and Shanwick Oceanic clearances) because we were overflying YQX airport and not landing there?

Anyway, these ATC procedures do change from time to time and it's a few months since I was last down there, so I bow to your more recent experience. Also, I haven't actually taken off from Gander and flown down to the Caribbean, nor flown up from there and landed in Gander. I have only overflown Gander in each direction to and from Florida and Mexico so maybe the procedure varies depending on your final destination/origin (Europe in my case).

I notice that the airways and fixes were revised last summer, so maybe they changed the ATC clearance procedure at the same time.

Bottom line: If you're not sure, ask ATC!