De-icing costs - typical rates?

[controlx]

Seems to be big variation in de-icing charges around, what are typical rates, light to mid-size jet and costs for fluid used?

Every time you get stung it makes overnight hangarage seem sensible

[roljoe]

Hello,

quite impossible to give a average amount, so many difference regarding the place, their "green policy", type of fluid..etc..

For ex, it cost me 250 € for a single de-icing (type1 fluid 40%)in Helsinki

in Belgrade about 2000€ for a type 4 fluid 75% ..and this for a LJ45 bird..

Our policy is always to compare Hangar fees (even for 1 hour period) against de-icing fees...The main problem is to consider the actual weather conditions (still snowing)...and the pax arrival time..
So this is one of the funny part of the game...Assessing and nothing else..

[learjet50]

sAs Roljoe said


De Icing charges are a nightmare.

At Manchester for instance the Call out Charge is Approx £100.00 thats before they start to de Ice you.

From then on its something like £7 if you have the weak stuff.

To Put 200 Litres on a Biz Jet is not unusal (In fact more the Norm) so thers another £140.00 So Far £240.00.

Hangarage is the obvious Answer if you can get it and you dont get your A/C covered in gue.

Re late Pax etc its worth warning them if you get hangarage you will not retrieve the Aircraft from the Hanger until they arrrive that way you get a nice warm Aeroplane fro the Pax. It May delay them 10 mins but if you order De Icing when they arrive that could take 30 mins to organize

If your told you cannot have hangarage a Quick £20 to the guy in charge usually changes his decision.


We once were charged at Manchester £3500 to de Ice a HS125 which far outweighed the Hanger costs but the Captain knew better (As Usual)

He kept insisting more de icng fluid put on a/c every 20-30 mins as pax kept delaying his departure time,Was offered Hanger but said pax would not want to wait once they arrived to be de-Iced.


A Rather expensive decision I Fear (so did the captain when he got the Bill
Tried to argue with the de icer Man but with a De Ice Rig in front of his A/C he had no choice.


Must say the Captain was a Total Kxxb which did not help


Best of luck




Regards

[DA50driver]

I know someone that was charged 17,000.00 USD to de-ice a Gulfstream 450 a few weeks ago.

[4HolerPoler]

Paid around € 3,000 for just over 750 liters of Type 1 at Luton last week. Big money. Normal honky white day in Luton (I'm learning) - got us in the de-ice queue while I was till having breakfast in the hotel. Handler (OS) did a great job of pestering them to pitch but it was almost 4 hours from request to spray and we got out in the nick of time.

[frontlefthamster]

Hmmm,

I really hope that no-one here is confusing de-icing and anti-icing.

De-icing is to do with removing deposits from the aircraft; anti-icing is to do with protecting the aircraft until it gets airborne.

Putting an aircraft in the hangar is fine if your aircraft is perfectly clean and there will be a short spell of snow which will stop before your departure time, for example, as it eliminates the need for de-icing.

However, if you want to depart in any type of low-temperature precipitation (your ops manual should define this for you), including active frost, you must anti-ice. To do otherwise risks, if you're lucky, the ridicule of your colleagues, and accusations of gross negligence and reckless endangerment. It may also involve a sufficiently early departure from this world to the next, relieving you of the opportunity to answer those accusations...

Hangarage is not an acceptable alternative to anti-icing under any circumstances.

[roljoe]

Don't worry about that..I'm sure everybody here is aware about the difference (when, why, how..) between de-icing and anti-icing..
But let's return to the initial subject which is the cost of the service whatever the kind, de-icing and/or anti-icing..

regards

[frontlefthamster]

roljoe, I did think carefully before applying slight drift to the thread, but I was a little concerned for example that if a captain kept insisting more de icng fluid put on a/c every 20-30 mins , then that suggests to me he needed anti-icing and was being careful to get it... The comments about his action make me worry much more about learjet 50 than 'captain kn*b'.

In strict answer to the OP, I don't know what we pay because if we need it, we order it, it happpens, and the Ops department settle the bill.

The cost is never questioned, and that, in my view, is just as it should be.

[silverknapper]

Roljoe

Would you mind me asking where in HEL that was? Fantastic price and way below anything we were ever charged there. PM me it if more convenient.

The cost is never questioned, and that, in my view, is just as it should be
Hamster that is great in theory, and I do agree with you in an ideal world. However I have seen certain handlers view de-icing/anti icing as a very potent revenue stream. We operated a light Turboprop in Scandinavia, which normally received 100-200 litres on average of type 1 to eradicate a light frost formed in the late evening. Several times invoices came to be signed off for 800 litres. Always the same Captain, and nothing extraordinary about the weather.
Similarly if the anti ice team was let loose with type 4 to their hearts content the amount they used meant the aircraft was bleeding the stuff from every joint for days after. I feel a spot of diligence can lead to much more reasonable bills. BUT it is a touchy subject.
To answer the original question generally have found around €100 call out plus €2 a litre for diluted type 1 and €4 a litre for type 2/4.

[frontlefthamster]

...and that's why we spend time and money giving proper training in de-icing procedures to all pilots. Your 800 litre captain is a training and discipline problem, not a de-icing one.

De-icing and anti-icing services are expensive, for reasons we don't need to rehearse here, but there are certainly premiums charged to operators other than airlines, for whom these services are usually contracted - often at very keen prices - as part of a much larger ground handling agreement.

[TheChiefPilot]

Guy's, Girls

If there is a Hanger then use it but if we need to De Ice then we do and sod the cost.

Safety can not be a cost saving its an expence that saves lives.

Take a look t the figures for accidents and see how many were due to Ice.

Say No More.

Pay and be safe

Happy Landings :ok::ok::ok:

TCP

[hawker750]

From one Chief Pilot to another

Absolutely correct do not compromise on de-icing. I once saw a notice on the wall of an African Country's landing fee office..."If you think safety is expensive try having an accident" I think of this every time I see a de-icing bill.

Not withstanding that there are things that the GA pilot can do to mitigate the costs.
1/ If possible sweep loose snow off the wings and fuselage other wise 100's of litres
of expensive fluid will be used to simply blow off this loose stuff

2/ Ask the company to use the fluid sparingly, use only enough so you are happy.
I think some de-ice companies just splosh it on knowing it is making them lots
of money.

3/ Our de-icing costs are always extra to the charter cost. If it is early morning frost
and the sun is up ask the client if he wants an hour's delay or £1,000 on the bill,
suprising how often an on time departure becomes not so necessary.

4/ On the Hawker the flight manual alows a small amount of frost from super cooled
fuel underneath the wing. Know your airplane's limititations. (do not try this in a
Challenger!)

[specialbrew]

$17,000 in Aspen last year for large biz jet!

[learjet50]

Specialbrew

Hi N

What were they
using SPECIAL BREW ?

Bet the de icing company had a Party That night

Regards to All



Gerry

[silverknapper]

Your 800 litre captain is a training and discipline problem, not a de-icing one.

I completely agree hamster. However he had under gone the usual in depth winter ops brief for this base, and had been prompted several times about these figures. Prompted being the operative word as I feel a small nudge is all one can do when it comes to addressing a sensitive issue such as this.
But it always came back to what my original point was, which I may not have made clear. ie that de icing is an issue that is sometimes perhaps tip toed around, as anyone who ever queries the amounts certain people use can be wide open to the accusation that cost is not a question, with safety first. Which I totally agree with 100%. I just personally feel that it is a very thorny issue to broach, but sometimes addressing it is justified. It can be worth remembering that too much thickened fluid can be detrimental to safety too, with the re hydration problems associated with them if they remain on the airframe and reach control surfaces.
Totally agree with Hawker, a broom for the loose stuff is the way ahead. Not only saves a lot of cash but if it negates the need for de icing totally it saves fluid being trampled into the carpets!
Not a very clear post I must admit!

[Cecco]

Citation CJ1+,
Kosice:500€ (de-icing)
Belgrade:490€ (de-icing)
Nurnberg: 870€ (de- and anti-icing)

Cheers,
Cecco