Wrong frequency maybe?

[vecvechookattack]

Does anyone know why this may have happened?


Silence is Deadly - Why Pilots Won't Talk | Terror_alert | RAF | Typhoons | Frontline Blog | Sky News Blogs (http://blogs.news.sky.com/frontlineblog/Post:cd00139b-b8ba-4ec4-b458-792a165849ce?)

[cornish-stormrider]

Errr, so there was a bit of a snafu wrt the magic wiggly boxes?

[Jabba_TG12]

What, you mean the launch or the nutter on board or the lack of air to air comms?

God knows why the launch. Taking it a bit too far if we're going to scramble Q for every p*ssed up nutter on a transatlantic flight...

As for what the article says about why cant they open a comms channel directly between the typh's and the airliner... they can cant they? Whats wrong with talking to them on Guard?

Or is there a difference between the Guard frequency used by US civil airliners and that used by NATO?? I'm sure there isnt. There must have been a reason why everything ended up being relayed through air traffic, if thats what really happened.

Wouldnt be surprised if Sky had got it a bit distorted somehow.

I dunno... tv news.... Give 'em a one off sniff of a CRC Ops room and they think they're Keith Park every time an AD incident happens.... :E

[Charlie Time]

Guard is an emergency frequency, not for chit chat even if it is QRA.

[vecvechookattack]

It was an emergency. An American Airlines Boeing 767-300, registration N376AN performing flight AA-78 from Dallas Ft. Worth,TX (USA) to London Heathrow,EN (UK) with 161 passengers and 12 crew, was enroute over the Atlantic having passed N54 W30 at FL330, when the crew reported an unruly passenger trying to gain access to the cockpit and requested law enforcement to be present for landing in Heathrow. The airplane descended to FL250 and flew across Ireland and the UK at that level accompanied by two Royal Air Force fighter jets and continued for a safe landing in Heathrow. The passenger was taken into custody by UK police.

American Airlines reported, that a female passenger became distressed during the flight and attempted to gain access to the cockpit. The passenger was calmed by cabin crew, the flight crew requested a priority landing as a precaution. The airplane was met by police upon arrival.

[tarantonight]

Jabba TG12

I was aware of this incident (V) Early Doors. I think you'll find the comms issue is fairly accurate, although to cover my ar*e in this Blame Society, I stand to be fully corrected at a later stage. Maybe.

[Mad_Mark]

Or is there a difference between the Guard frequency used by US civil airliners and that used by NATO?? I'm sure there isnt.

Well actually, yes there is. Civilian guard frequncy is VHF, 121.5 whereas the NATO guard frequency is UHF, 243.0.

However, if you were asking if there was a difference between the civilian guard (VHF) frequencies between the US and the rest of the NATO nations, or the rest of the world, then the answer would indeed be no. 121.5 is the International Civil Aviation Authority (ICAO) guard frequency.

MadMark!!! :mad:

[Pontius Navigator]

Consider this:

The Tiffy is a single seat fighter. It has only one communications device* and that would be used to talk with the other aircraft and remain in contact with its opauth.

Now would you have it change channels to 121.5 and lose contact with the air defence commander?




Only a thought on a rumour network.
* by that I mean the pilot!

[Jabba_TG12]

Mark:
Yeah, I knew that (121.5 as against 243, I mean!), that wasn't specifically what I was referring to, but never mind, I see your point.

PN: Surely there must be dual channels, in this day and age? Hasnt every interceptor since the Phantom (if not earlier) been equipped with dual channels for air to air and air to ground comms? I appreciate, theres only one jockey in the thing, but... hang on, hang on, the reports refer to "fighters", plural not singular.... implying that (durrr) a pair were launched. Surely one of them could have... oh it doesnt matter. Its all after the event anyway, the distressed pax is no doubt examining the nice padded wallpaper, the Air To Air missile stocks remain undepleted and at least the decision chain never got as far as Jonah Brown. All's well that ends well.

Tarantonight: Intriguing. I suppose coming from an old cold warrior, launching for something like this seems a tad odd (ie so long as the cockpit is secure, what do they reasonably expect Q to be able to do? I can understand the twitchiness of any civair crew at someone trying to kick the cockpit door in and I'm not going to criticise them for calling it an Emergency. If the passenger was subsequently calmed by cabin crew, I wonder at what point that was acheived in the sequence of events - ie, were Q wheels up and ENR at this point or what and figured well, now we're airborne we may as well continue? Sledgehammers and walnuts?

Post 9/11, I guess, AD is a different world these days.

....It all seemed so much simpler when we were sending Phantoms all over the Iceland/Faeroes gap chasing retreating Bear D's at two o clock in the morning... :}

[RODF3]

The Tiffy is a single seat fighter. It has only one communications device* and that would be used to talk with the other aircraft and remain in contact with its opauth.


I would hope this modern wonder jet has the ability to listen to more than one radio, whilst talking on another and therefore not lose comms everytime it has to change freq.

[airborne_artist]

Now would you have it change channels to 121.5 and lose contact with the air defence commander?Many years ago I was trained as the commander of a CVRW (Fox) - we had two nets (troop and squadron, normally), and heard one in each ear, and a switch on the mike sometimes meant we'd speak on the correct net.

[incubus]

Having "Electronic Counter Measure (ECM) resistant [communications] with secure and non-secure UHF and VHF dual redundancy"* (which I translate as "2 radios") will let the single pilot operate on multiple frequencies and talk to the intercepted aircraft whilst remaining in communication with the military agencies.

I would expect that procedural limitations of the task/situation may mean that making direct communications with the problem aircraft aren't a high priority.

*source: Eurofighter Typhoon - Navigation (http://www.eurofighter.com/et_as_sf_na.asp)

[MATELO]

"God knows why the launch. Taking it a bit too far if we're going to scramble Q for every p*ssed up nutter on a transatlantic flight..."

If the pilot deems the risk necessary then he squawks 7500. Is this still an automatic launch of the QRA if it happens within the UK boundries or aircraft heading for them.

Do we know if the pilot did actually squawk 7500??

[Pontius Navigator]

I was not suggesting that they could not monitor guard and ops - but that they might not have wanted to chop about if it was not necessary to talk with the civvie.

It also raises the question - two-channel or three? We are talking 2 guard channels and the A-A or to Opauth. While they can undoubtedly dial up 121.5 can they monitor it as a guard channel or is guard limited to the UHF one?

If they can only dial up 121.5 then it would have involved one aircraft going off-freak.

[sitigeltfel]

God knows why the launch. Taking it a bit too far if we're going to scramble Q for every p*ssed up nutter on a transatlantic flight...Back in the days of fighters with over and under engines Q would occasionally be launched for training purposes. This would usually occur when one of the duty crews had been brought up to readiness in the face of a perceived threat and then the threat level rescinded. 11 Group would authorise the launch and everyone, ground and air, would get something to ease the boredom. The original threat was used as the training target, but without close intercept.

[Gainesy]

Tch. Guard over the Pond is for Murrican Football and Rounders scores.

[Geehovah]

"Guard is an emergency frequency, not for chit chat even if it is QRA."

So a QRA jet pulling alongside is not an emergency?

When I did that stuff I was fired up enough to believe it. Try a launch from asleep to airborne on 5 minutes readiness...............

[Clockwork Mouse]

In the 1970s in a Sioux we could listen to 3 radios and the intercom. Suspect things in a Typhoon in 2010 are a trifle more advanced.

[Pontius Navigator]

In the 1970s in a Sioux we could listen to 3 radios and the intercom. Suspect things in a Typhoon in 2010 are a trifle more advanced.

we could listen to 3 radios

There is a clue there, not sure what it is though :}

At the same time, in the mighty hunter, we could listen to 4 or more. Only problem was we hadn't a clue what freak someone was on when they called us. We wised up and allocated radios to the 4 of us 1-2, 2-4, 3-1, 4-3

[Gaz ED]

Wonder jet have 8.33 KHz spacing in Civilian VHF?

Or does it still do 25 KHz?

[vecvechookattack]

Isn't everyone using 8.33 Khz spacing nowadays ?

[kiwi grey]

8.33KHz spacing - only in aviation.
Most ground and marine sets use a 12.5KHz spacing * :ugh:

Or so my Spectrum Manager explained to me, all the while shaking his head sadly.
And of course, different national authorities reserve different portions of the same band for different purposes. So please don't use your US radio set, say, anywhere in East or South-East Asia or in Australasia 'coz you'll be all over other people's frequency allocations.

* BTW, that's respectively one-third and one-half the original 25MHz spacing

[tucumseh]

* BTW, that's respectively one-third and one-half the original 25MHz spacing

Older gits will remember, for example, pre-ASR889 50kHz spacing, and designers warning us that yes, you can get a 25kHz modification at great cost, but when you want 8.33/12.5 you better make sure there's money for new radios.

And then OR telling us in '96 that under no circumstances would any military aircraft get 8.33. The result is that, when the penny drops, the cost is borne by chopping some other project that has had the foresight to get it right. Ironic, on the day our glorious leader told Chilcott MoD had enough money and he never refused a request.

[Dengue_Dude]

Hell's Bells, what a non-thread this is.

Out.