First Officer flies 13 years without license

[MathFox]

Authorities at Amsterdam Schiphol airport arrested a 41yo Swedish first officer with a falsified licence certificate. The pilot admitted that he had flown for 13 years without proper papers. At the moment of his arrest he was preparing to fly a 737 with 101 passengers to Ankara.

Fuller story (in Dutch): Co-piloot vliegt 13 jaar zonder brevet | nu.nl/buitenland | Het laatste nieuws het eerst op nu.nl (http://www.nu.nl/buitenland/2197443/co-piloot-vliegt-13-jaar-zonder-brevet.html)

[er340790]

Just one word...

HOW? :rolleyes:

[Agaricus bisporus]

Well, he can't be too much of a dummy if he's bamboozled colleagues and passed sim rides, type conversions all that time.

Interesting to know the airline involved though.

[zerotohero]

I guess after 13 years and that amount of commitment he would have been a better choice to fly the aircraft than some SSTR guys out there! :ok:

Let him through :=

[MathFox]

He has (had) some pilot licenses, but not the appropriate commercial license. Somehow he obtained an imitation of the official license papers... (crafted one himself?)

So far it seems a case of "capable but not qualified", but I have seen no proof of his capacities. :E

Edit: there were two flights to Ankara on 2/3: TK 1958 and CAI 0202; I don't know which of the two flights was involved.

[Doug the Head]

Question: when the issuance of a license costs many hundred €'s/£'s/¥'s, why don't most of these pilot's licenses have any advanced anti-fraud characteristics like for example a photo (duh!) and a much harder to fake hologram etc?

CAA's around this globe are raking in millions in "fees" and what we pilots get in return is a lousy piece of paper that any high school kid with a scanner can fake!

Even the average ID card, driver's license or credit card have better anti-fraud measures in place... :eek:

[Doug the Head]

p.s. what's really hilarious IMHO is that when you do your yearly license renewal that the TRE can just sign your license.

Who on earth is ever going to verify (for example during a ramp check or job application) that this "TRE" really is a TRE and that you really did pass that sim check? :confused:

[Juud]

Agaricus, looks like a code share between Turkish Airlines and something called Corendon (http://www.iaca.be/index.cfm?FC519FDB-BDBE-2776-002D-3C5967C3BC7F).

Schiphol departures yesterday. (http://www.schiphol.nl/Travellers/FlightInformation.htm?typeofflight=departures&tab=vertrek&day=yesterday&to=Ankara&number=&society=&time=0%3A00&submit=4)

[ironbutt57]

The better one was the Eastern Airlines Captain...same idea, even faked his way into an Air National Guard Unit flying fighters...it happens...

[protectthehornet]

Dudley

did he have a scar on his chin/cheek?

[bearfoil]

"Badges? BADGES??? I don' need to sho no steenkeen badges!!"

[Sam Crow]

p.s. what's really hilarious IMHO is that when you do your yearly license renewal that the TRE can just sign your license.

The TRE signs the lcense but doesn't the paperwork go to the Regulatory Authourity of the issuing country.

Competent but not qualified, better than the other way around.

Some day they will make a film about his life.:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[MathFox]

Link to English language article: Dutch authorities arrest Boeing 737 pilot who had no valid pilot license (http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/world/dutch-authorities-arrest-boeing-737-pilot-who-had-no-valid-pilot-license-2_100329347.html)

[Roddenty]

Authorities at Amsterdam Schiphol airport arrested a 41yo Swedish first officer with a falsified licence certificate.

I understand that the 'first officer' was actually a training captain with a Turkish airline.

[Andorra]

Dutch news now confirms that the company is Corendon.

edit -

CAI 0202 , Boeing 737-400 / TCTJC

[Roddenty]

Dutch news now confirms that the company is Corendon.


What was the UK airline he flew for??

[Doug the Head]

The TRE signs the lcense but doesn't the paperwork go to the Regulatory Authourity of the issuing country.Of course the paperwork goes to the responsible CAA, but does anybody actually verify this? I don't think so... so basically anybody with a photocopier and half a clue to what goes on inside a cockpit can bluff his/her way into a job.

The only thing that gets checked thoroughly is the National Disclosure stuff (because "we can't let the terrorists win" :} ) but I guess that this can be circumvented by giving bankrupt airlines (plenty of those around!) as past employers! ;)

[luvly jubbly]

Doug The Head.... I have been recently laid off by a bankrupted airline, and am in the process of applying for an airport ID.

You can't even fool them like that. I had to get a letter from HMRC confirming the start & end dates of my employment with GSM!:eek:

This guy must have had forged documentation, surely....

LJ

[AnthonyGA]

Question: when the issuance of a license costs many hundred €'s/£'s/¥'s, why don't most of these pilot's licenses have any advanced anti-fraud characteristics like for example a photo (duh!) and a much harder to fake hologram etc?

Not necessary. At least in the U.S., you can check whether or not a person has a pilot's license (and the exact type held, with restrictions and current medical) in a few seconds on the Web, because that data is public information. In fact, the whole idea of making the information publicly available in a database is to avoid this type of scenario. Licenses cannot be forged because anyone can see if the license matches the FAA database in a few seconds.

Of course, this assumes that an employer actually takes the time to look the data up, instead of just glancing at what looks like a license and accepting it at face value.

It's different with something like a banknote, which you have to evaluate on its own merits. But with a license, assuming you have positive identification of the individual to which it refers, and with access to an online database, you can see if the license is real in a few seconds. The license could be scrawled on tissue paper and it would still be just as secure, as long as you have the person's ID and the database. But you do have to take the time to actually check that database.

[captplaystation]

That will be the same Corendon that didn't take any applicants recently from the two agencies offering a "normal" contract salary, but left their ad active with the dodgy one offering the same job for 1000€ a month less.
Guess if you insist on paying less than normal you can't expect guys to "actually" have a licence :ok:

Would love to know who this guy was, having operated in companies in all of the countries mentioned in the report, I feel sure I must know of him.
Anyway, just goes to show. . .paperwork Phaw ! ! := it's ability that counts :D

Just as well he never had a whoopsy, that would have been a difficult one with the insurance companies.

[DOVES]

At least he was not captain any more (I am sure that's the same guy):
http://www.pprune.org/italian-forum/229443-scandalo-ap.html
Fly safe
DOVES

[Bomber Harris]

Doug,

Sam is right. Your TRE signature is valid immediatly. But the paperwork goes to the issuing authority and it is checked there. So in practice, if the TRE amkes a serious paperwork error, you could get a call in 2 weeks saying your rating is not valid....and it happens.

the system is based on the fact that the TRE is probably a real TRE and he didn't make any mistakes. If you look at the opposite type of system....well it would be hell for us....having to wait until your paperwrok is rubber stamped by 10 departments in your CAA and then you go to the belgrano to collect your license after queueing for half a day!!! I think we have it 'sensible' where it's at....don't knock it

BH

[Chronus]

Must have been inspired by the Hollywood film and thought I too can be a Leonardo Di Caprio.

[Oyindo]

Catch me if you can!!!!!

[BILGROM]

The pilot arrested in Amsterdam was the AMS Base Captain and was a ex Air One captain (after being promoted frm F/O.

[act700]

I don't see the big deal.

An MCC or this?! What's the difference?

[Fubaar]

Quite some years ago now, I flew with (and trained - or tried to) a captain who was eventually (after three *** years!!!) "let go", who every other pilot (including the trainers!) in the airline, except to the chief pilot, (who was a friend and who'd employed him over the phone), was sure had a cooked logbook, if not licence.

He came in as a DEC, and if he really had been a captain before, God help us all. Everyone in the airline thought he'd been an FE at most in his previous airline. He eventually got chopped when he transferred to another fleet - (after three years of scaring his crews senseless on the previous fleet) - and really scared a training captain on the new type during line training.

As far as I know, he returned to his home country (that big one north of Mexico) and continued to fly.

In a similar vein, three DECs arrived at a very well known major South East Asian airline some years ago and aced in their sim training, but once out on the line, had major difficulties dealing with enroute weather and even moreso, all those little pre-departure problems that a captain has to deal with before engine start.

Turned out they'd been sim instructors on the type they came to their new airline as DECs - but actually flew the line for a couple of weeks before that became obvious and they were terminated.

[greenfield]

Facts..
He was a Captain with Corendon, and the AMS base Captain
He was promoted in Air One about 1997-1998
He left Air One and flew briefly for a Leeds-based low-cost carrier, based in BFS
He has been a Captain with Corendon since 2008
I have worked with him and alongside him in all 3 airlines
He was extremely proficient in handling the B737, had training as TRI, and never had any problem with checks

[grumpyoldgeek]

Dudley

did he have a scar on his chin/cheek?

LOL. You known your flying literature.

[Andorra]

What was the UK airline he flew for??

Jet2.com

He flew also for : Air One, Air Sweden and Apollo Airlines.

[Re-Heat]

You would have thought by that time he would have covered his tracks by ensuring a valid licence somewhere when he changed jobs and doing a necessary conversion exam, while hoping the original licensing authority's incompetence continued to that point.

Mad.

[Roger Dixon]

He walked the walk, he talked the talk, he simmed the sim; now let him fly the damned plane.

[SDFlyer]

Doug The Head: " ... but I guess that this can be circumvented by giving bankrupt airlines (plenty of those around!) as past employers! http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif "

hmmm, I would never have thought of that. Thanks a bunch.

All I need now are the right threads ....

[nishant chander]

THAT REMINDS ME OF LEONARDO DO CAPRIO...in the movie " CATCH ME IF YOU CAN":):)

[Dylsexlic]

Are we heading for the same scenario with aircrew as we have with car drivers - you know - technically fine, but don't have the right papers like license, insurance, MOT etc etc?

It is very difficult to become a commercial pilot and costs loadsamoney so, er, why bother? This guy has opened up a whole can of worms, IMHO. How many more are there?

I feel a "due diligence" docs check coming on.....:ok:

[BristolScout]

Flapassym and others.

Don't let your impatience with due process blind you to the fact that this guy broke the law and, more importantly, broke the contract of faith with his employers (granted they should have been more diligent) and the passengers he carried. Would you really want your teeth drilled by someone with a faked dentist's qualification?

He will doubtless be prosecuted and,I would hope, have his fitness to hold a licence in the future assessed. Leave the romantic idealism to Ernest K Gann's characters.

[Chuck Canuck]

You ain't seen nothing yet!; wait till someone delve deeply into pilots at Korean. The hordes of fella with dodgy flying hours, ratings and " claimed experience ".

The recent massive recruitment exercise has attracted a great many adventurers with glib tongues and computerized log book entries, easily fooling the Korean flight admin and TREs/TRIs. Some are showed up during training with foreign LIPs who chose to maintain " expat solidarity " and cleared those con artists through the hoops.

[J.O.]

Can't help wondering if those who would let him go with a slap on the wrists would feel the same if this discovery had been made following a fatal accident with him at the controls. :=

[porridge]

It's just the tip of the iceberg anyway. According to a friend of mine who was flying in West Africa - he said he'd flown with people who hadn't a clue. Not the locals mind, but nationals from the Asian sub continent and former Eastern Bloc countries. Fictional logbooks of course are already "de riguer", so the license is logical next step. Take people who have lost the licenses for various reasons, new ID, new license, still can walk the walk and talk the talk. Money buys you anything, if you can get a vitually perfect forged passport why not a license?

[clunckdriver]

Ventus, well said! The last captain who lapsed into a coma over this way had a very experienced F/O with him, a good thing as the weather was typical Canadian winter crap, it just stuns me that we fly our little corporate aircraft with two high time pilots , but share the sky with outfits run by bean counters, however the public just dont seem to understand the underlying reason behind some of the latest cases of bent tin.{speed back to 85kts in a 37 and nobody does a friggin thing?}

[oxenos]

Sh1t. You mean I should have had a licence all those years? I thought it was like riding a bicycle, if you could do it you could do it. Never got asked for licence riding a bike.
O Xenos

[wings1011]

As said Im shocked about this since I thought I know this person fairly well. I have had several meetings with at the same hotelbar during last year in Amsterdam. And everybody I have talked to at their airline have previously always that he is an absolute exelent pilot and teacher. I know that his background is flying fighters in the swedish airforce so defenetly he did know how to fly.I just do not understand anything !
Lets wait and see what will come out. Its gotta be something strange about this though

Regards

Wings 1011

[secret agent 86]

I too know this person having been his roommate for 6 months. I can honestly say he was an irritating prat and no one should feel sorry for him. His skill as a pilot was mediocre at best (although he would rattle on endlessly how good he was) and he was arrogant both in and out of the flight deck. I was duped by him financially so shame on me, but what he has done is inexcusable and I wish him nothing but the worst.

[dwarfhunter]

AMSTERDAM (Reuters) - A Swedish pilot with a fake commercial license was arrested in his cockpit at Amsterdam's Schiphol airport as he prepared to fly 101 passengers on a Boeing 737 to Turkey, Dutch police said Wednesday.

The 41 year-old Swede, who was at the helm of a jet bound for Ankara, had been flying for 13 years and logged more than 10,000 flight hours using forged documents for airlines in Belgium, Britain and Italy, authorities said.

The pilot, whose name was not disclosed, was said to have expressed relief when confronted and taken off his pilot's stripes.

[Jabawocky]

Apart from naughty actions with fake doc's.....he can't have been too bad to keep flying that long! :)

The bit of Ned Kelly in me says...Top Job Bloke :ok:

Amazing!

[Tiger35]

Ansett had a pilot caught out with fake docs in the 90's.

He failed his RAAF pilots course and then faked tons of Macchi hours in his logbook and eventually got accepted by Ansett.

He was caught out after current airline pilots, who were on his RAAF course, saw him in Ansett uniform and reported his history to them.

Bye-bye was the end result, and a few years before Ansett said bye-bye too.

[CHITIRI]

His name was all over the media as the Turkish aviation industry was shocked to hear it happening in their own backyard for the past 2 years.

The culperates name declared in the media was: Thomas SALME

You can also go to this link and see his picture also being posted;

??TE O SKANDAL P?LOT - AirportHaber (http://www.airporthaber.com/v3/readnews.php?newid=21751)

Its amazing to see how many loopholes our industry has and there are those whom take advantage of these and causing a major flight safety risk for us all.:D:ugh:

[Pointer]

Greenfield: you have worked with him in three airlines, he was detested by most people he got in contact, Puts undue stress on all of us, etc etc..

what does that say about you?? did you know and look the otherway? he is a total idiot, he has "learned" an attitude which he mistakenly thought to be the way we legitemate pilots act and behave...

Or did you just want to be on his good side, since he was the protege of the DFO, and the Base Captain??? :D

Butt i guess if you are just stating facts its ok, right? :E

[On the beach]

You'd think after 9/11 the airlines and, come to that, the aviation authorities would have put fairly stringent checks in place to make sure nobody got to be in control of an aircraft that shouldn't be.

13 years of fooling the airlines and the authorities with fake documentation in 3 different countries says to me that there is a major security breakdown that needs addressing rather urgently.

It makes you wonder how many more "fake" pilots there are out there.

Sounds like a job for a young investigative reporter to cut their teeth on.

You might even want to check the credentials of the chap sitting next to you if you've never flown with him before. Or, even if you have flown with him before.

On the beach

[totempole]

Chuck........you will probably open up barrels of worms if you can to investigate the credentials of all the foreign gijangnims in KAL!

Some of the so called adventurers were caught if the happen to meet with a sharp local Korean LIP ( not many, believe me! ). Those lucky enough to be " trained " by expay LIPs get through with a lot of " advice " on how to fool the system or fool the Korean checkers! There you have it, easy as ABC.

[Pugilistic Animus]

Yep he got'em,...:}

...adds to the lore and the mystery of this story...."this story"= this business=Aviation:ok:

PA:)

[latetonite]

I think those occurrences are rare though. But I am still more scared for some guys with a genuine license..

[Airbus Girl]

Interesting that 3 airlines that employed him never checked that he had a valid licence. And surely when his LPC checks were done by TRE, a copy goes to the relevant CAA? I am presuming here that it is not just held by the airline? If the CAA got a copy then do they not do a basic check - like put the date of the current LPC on the pilot's record?

I am amazed that all those airlines never bothered to check that a new pilot had the correct documentation!

As for whether it was OK for him to fly because he managed it for 13 years, and some stuff in the ground exams is not relevant, well, surely the job of airline pilot involves honesty, trust and integrity too? What else has might he have faked/ covered up?

And how come he changed jobs so often? Were they on to him?

[Pugilistic Animus]

AirbusGirl life is but a show,...this one ended well:}

sit back and learn to enjoy the show,...anyways you all know what causes most of the world's actual problems:)


Problems with ....


Transportation:ooh:


enjoy the show....
YouTube - Gene Krupa- Sing, Sing, Sing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9J5Zt2Obko)

[camel]

:ugh:you only paid $20 for your ticket ...you expect to have a 'real' pilot sitting up there in the lhs ?

cmon people get real !

evidently the dutch had been concerned about this guy for some time ..kept lining up on the actual runway itself...hmmm

[Pugilistic Animus]

Camel you sound like an old fashioned fool:ok:


Yeah because we all know when ordered by ATC to land:rolleyes:

that if we can not see the runway due to something like white out condition flat lighting or slush and snow cover we cannot Go missed without FMC/sops permission and we can not GA either,...because we'd be sacked for an 'unstable approach':{,...but we can get sooo much extra performance on TO with EFATO cancel the DERATE all the time blindly and ignorantly ....it is 'new idea' floating around for about 20/30 some odd years now:} instead we can't just give it the "Ol' Boeing Push," [if applicable]....and we can jus' drag her on in:)

great post

PA

[captplaystation]

P.A. WTF are you on about ? :confused:

[camel]

give me pint of it too !:ok:

[blaireau]

And another one who wasn't caught out, but I now know to have falsified his CV.

Once a given carrier signs them up, they are effectively legalised. Some reluctance on the part of those duped, to admit their oversight, is perhaps understandable.

[Enzo 391]

Corendon is an airline that is selling flight time to unexperienced FO:s
and to put a brand new FO (250 hours) together with a "Captain" without licence must be hard to explain for the DFO.

[Slats One]

As two previous posters have noted, this has been going on for decades- 'Dudley' 'Scar on cheek'.

Fate is the Hunter. Ernest Gann.

Nothing is new under the sun....

[Agaricus bisporus]

I suspect that we may find that he only had one fake (forged) licence in fact, and that the others were real.

In the days when a national licence was a requirement these were often issued quite readily on production of another "acceptable" licence. Thus if he forged his Swedish licence he mightn well have been spotted by return paperwork from his Sim rides because he had no CAA records in Sweden, but once the Belgians or Italians or whoever had issued their licence or validation on the basis of that then he was pretty much in the clear as those licences were perfectly genuine. He only had to rely on the issuing state not checking with the original CAA - and I bet no one does that.

Just a theorey that might explain things.

Still should be strung up by the balls though. Imagine th stink when a doctor does this? Do the medical profession aplaud him as a "Ned Kelly" (SHAME!)

I find it hard to believe that so many people here are willing to applaud this fraudster who is no more than an unqualified job-thief when they have sweated blood and £000s to achieve a licence, and this prick has cheated, stolen work and endangered tens of thousands of lives.(because he wasn't always as good an operator as he is now)

Doesn't say much for our self-esteem, and quite a lot of other things too, does it?

:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[First.officer]

Well, IMHO, regardless of how competent, good etc.,etc. you may or may not have been over a number of months/years/decades, without the correct licence and validations, exams etc. i feel that you shouldn't be out there doing the job.

Of course, some will disagree - personally i think i would make a great gynaecologist having spent the last 24 years.....actually, i'll stop right there as i don't have the relevant paperwork.......you could argue i have the experience though.......heheh

F/O

[Pointer]

The Fraudster was Blacklisted by Agency's and being "wanted" by the Swedisch CAA for 7... yes SEVEN years allready, and guys like Greenfield keep on defending this dangerous fool (that he was) and protecting him, He should be nailed to the wall for all to see.


.. so there, don't beleive a minute that T.S. was safe... at all!!!!!!

[pee]

The captain with no licence? I'll tell you something equally frightening. Earlier this year we were shocked by the news of three false doctors acting here in Finland as GP's. Two of them were medical students halfway through the studies, but the third was a totally lay person, with no medical education at all. Would you believe it? Well, they did suspect something, but the third mentioned managed to work several months before it came out. Generally you believe your doctor, don't you?

Asked "why did you do it" the man said: "Doctors' earnings are good enough" :eek:

[LeadSled]

Not all that uncommon. Anyone remember the Australian who went on to fly with a major airline on the sub continent with forged licences and log book entries? Caught out by a good bit of detective work and duly prosecuted as I recall.

Folks,
And I know of at least one ---- who got a post 1989 job in Au., and continued to retirement. Plus two "SIM Captains" (different airlines) who bluffed their way into real flying jobs around the Indian Ocean.

There are still at least two African countries where you can get a license by mail, for US$$$$$ --- and despite the fact the countries are not Level 1 countries, quite a number of kosher countries still accept the license to issue a local validation ---- having verified with the "national authority" in said African country that the license was "valid".

Don't you just love "process'.

Tootle pip!!

[cerfont]

Yes indeed is the scarface pilot:rolleyes:

[Dengue_Dude]

I remember when on Airtours, a first officer was being investigated for an over-imaginative logbook.

There were a number of characters whose ring pieces were going sixpence - dinner plate. Some of them were exactly the type of characters you'd expect, some weren't.

Personally, I think there is a lot more going round than people realise - tip of the iceberg.

It will continue until 'we' decide to use the laws that are already in place. A dose of the 'Voltaire' treatment would be good.

[silverware]

At last, some positive news about the Dutch in aviation!
After being bashed on this forum over the fact they had a "underwear bomber" slipping through and certain airlines taking off from taxiways at SPL my fellow countrymen make me proud :D

[Fantome]

Well, IMHO, regardless of how competent, good etc.,etc. you may or may not have been over a number of months/years/decades, without the correct licence and validations, exams etc. i feel that you shouldn't be out there doing the job.

Of course, some will disagree - personally i think i would make a great gynaecologist having spent the last 24 years.....actually, i'll stop right there as i don't have the relevant paperwork.......you could argue i have the experience though.......heheh

F/O

Are you advancing the debate one iota with this post? First para., pretty fatuous, the second, reminiscent of the comic who couldn't.


Leave the romantic idealism to Ernest K Gann's characters.



Have another read and reassess the horrifically immoral and criminal Dudley.

Dengue - does the Voltaire treatment involve syphilis, rampant in 'Candide'?

[captplaystation]

And are you advancing it with yours ? :hmm: As they say, we spend 9mths trying to get outa there, and the rest of our life trying to get back in ;)

As regards the thread subject, I think too a certain wry sense of humour is called for here.
All the self-important "regulators" Ha :D with their recognitions/validations /own little hierarchy . . . and this guy rides roughshod like a bull in a china shop over the whole lot & does his own thing undetected for 13 years :rolleyes:

As well as the deadly serious side vis a vis insurance cover if there had been an accident, and his "official" never mind practical abilities, I can't also help smiling a little here.

If the story about him being known about for 7yrs is true, then some heads should roll even further than his IMHO.

[First.officer]

I do apologise Fantome - just stating my opinion - didn't mean to be "fatuous" (i had to go look that one up on Google, didn't want to just assume you were putting me down ! hehe)

I guess what i was trying to do, albeit in a slightly unorthodox fashion (and as it turns out, totally un-funny way :{) was to say that just because we do something for a number of months/years/decades, means absolutely nothing if the legal requirements are not satisfied for the relevant authorities - just an opinion i'm voicing, feel free to disagree at will - and i believed it relevant to the thread topic Fantome ?

And i know for sure i wouldn't be a good gyno., regardless of paperwork i still desperately need some good quality hours in the saddle - oh, how i love gaining the experience :E

F/O

[Pointer]

captplaystation, a little correction; he did not do his work for 13 years undetected, he fled from several jobs, only to use his cunning deceit in an other country, he was on the wanted list with the Swedes, for 7 years, he has been tossed by more airlines, he fled from some..

Some people keep this Robin-hood image alive, like no one noticed..? every time someone did notice!, and then he fled.. until he ran in to this DFO, who did not look further than his nose is long, only to cheat other pilots in the business. So T.S. was being happy because he found his counterpart, somewhere he could hide, play the boss, so the Farce could stay alive. i hope the Truly Honest and fine gentleman who runs Corendon Vliegvakanties will read this because its a shame that his company gets damaged by such idiots!!

Many excellent people work at Corendon Vliegvakanties and Corendon Airlines..

[Fantome]

Thanks f.o, silly to get side tracked, bogged down in semantics, especially when the crux of this affair is so ably revealed by those who have first hand knowledge of the scoundrel. So here we are just being picky, as no doubt I am maintaining that what you have said in effect and repeated is simply the obvious, that whatever our experience, we must have earned the right to hold our qualifications if we wish to qualify, in our own eyes, in the eyes of the world and, of course, the eyes of the law. Can we just call that 'a given', please?

[Agaricus bisporus]

Dengue, was the Airtours miscreant a particularly unpleasant female by any chance - and tried to sue them for sexual discrimination too?

Fantome, the Voltaire reference is undoubtably "...por encourager les autres."

[Dengue_Dude]

It was a man . . . and since I have no proof either way, I'll comment no further.

Fantome, the Voltaire reference is undoubtably "...por encourager les autres."

Mais oui, c'est ca

[Ballymoss]

was the Airtours miscreant a particularly unpleasant female by any chance - and tried to sue them for sexual discrimination too?



Nah, the ex busdriver (leyland National, Bristol VR etc..) just couldn't fly.

The ex RAF chap refered to is a rather more interesting case.

Rgds
The Moss:ok:

[Dan Winterland]

From the British Guardian newspaper, Wednesday 28 March 2001.


A British airline pilot has been suspended amid claims that some of his qualifications may have been faked, it emerged yesterday.
Irregularities were allegedly found in the logbook of Airtours first officer Sxxxxx Gxxxxxx, 30, when he applied for a promotion.

The civil aviation authority (CAA) has launched an investigation which will look back over the career of Mr Gxxxxxx, who is believed to have served in the RAF before joining Airtours.

If the allegations are proved Mr Gxxxxxx, who flew mainly Airbus 320s, could be charged under article 83 of the air navigation order. If guilty he could receive a two-year jail term and/or an unlimited fine.

Mr Gxxxxx began working for Airtours in 1999. His logbook, a record of his whole career, seemed to indicate that he had appropriate qualifications and experience.

The irregularities were discovered only when the airline invited its more junior pilots to apply for command posts. After Mr Gxxxxx applied for promotion, a routine check of his logbook was made and concern raised over the accuracy of some entries. It is believed the investigation will look at the number of hours Mr Gxxxxx claimed to have flown before joining Airtours.

The CAA's safety regulation group is responsible for setting commercial aviation standards in Britain. This role includes ensuring that pilots are adequately trained and that their flying hours are regulated. Maintaining a logbook is the responsibility of a pilot but is subject to spot checks by the CAA.

A spokesman said: "The CAA is investigating a pilot for a British airline in connection with alleged irregularities relating to a pilot licence application."

Mr Gxxxxxx was not available for comment.


He had been in the RAF and had an RAF logbook with enough hours to get a license. Except that he hadn't been an pilot in the RAF, he had fabricated the whole logbook. He was found out when someone who was actually on one of the Squadrons his logbook claimed he was on couldn't remeber him.

To falsify an RAF logbook is very adventurous. Each months' entries have to be countersigned by at least one, but usually two executives on the unit and each end of year there is a countersigned summary which matched the official RAF records. It's fraud on a grand scale.

Name obscured by me, because incredibly - he's now got his licences back and is flying again!

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

A number of interesting points have come out of this and similar incidents - a number of which have already been referred to. It is worth noting that deliberate falsification on qualifications is by no means exclusive to the aviation industry. There have been many well documented cases of dentists and doctors performing complex surgical procedures on patients without any formal qualifications in their field. It is actually reasonably straight forward to acquire the basic skills required to pretend to be someone you are not if you work in the right sphere. For example, if you are an experienced theatre technician, you can pick up masses of practical tips and then take a chance on getting the experience you need once you have your surgeon's job. Similarly, if you are good as a pilot and a bit of a chancer you can talk your way into anything. In both cases, there has been a generally-accepted belief that you only turn up to an interview with the necessary qualifications.

There are a number of issues here. First of all, to knowingly defraud your airline and your passengers in this way is outrageous. It must be severely punished in order for passengers to retain confidence in the system which governs pilot qualification and recruitment. Without that there is no airline industry. The second issue is that this individual is robbing every professional pilot who has chosen to do it right. They have done the work, proven themselves at every stage of training and been found worthy to have that coveted airline job. I have zero sympathy for this guy, as he is a thief who has robbed every concientious young pilot aspiring to this job. It is my belief that jail is the only appropriate disposal of the case as a warning to others. This is simply intolerable and any loophole in the licensing sytem that permits this must be tidied-up pronto.

[Pugilistic Animus]

Name obscured by me, because incredibly - he's now got his licences back and is flying again!

and no one even enjoyed the show:}

[Roddenty]

According to this article, the Walt was actually a photographer.
Swedish pilot flew 13 years without licence - The Local (http://www.thelocal.se/25330/20100303/)

His portfolio.
Portfolio (http://www.hasselblad.se/hoc/photographers/thomas-salme.aspx)

[MathFox]

Mr. N.S. Fletcher, I appreciate your contribution and agree with you that this pilot should be punished for his fraud. OTOH, I think it is good to take one step back and look at the holes in other parts of the system that were abused so that Mr. Fake could land his flying job.

The first (obvious) hole that was abused was insufficient verification of the pilot license. Several airlines accepted a "home made" piece of paper (or maybe just the pilot's word) for a real license. Off course one could make the certificate harder to fake, but tell me how often you see an Icelandic or Maltese pilot license... is that enough to spot a falsification? In these days of internet connectivity it should be pretty easy for a CAA to set up a web site where one can validate a license: Enter a license number
and you get a web page with the details of the license. (No need to provide current address of the pilot, name and date of birth should be enough.)

One can ask some other data, like "issue date" to prevent access by people just trying license numbers.

[Enzo 391]

Pointer is correct somebody must take the responsibility for employing this "pilot" and on top of that making him Base Captain,but as usual the
DFO will not admit any mistake at all and keep his job.

[Pointer]

:ugh: Flapassym and Roddenty :D ever heard of PM?

Enzo, its up to the Court to decide on Capt. Fake and up to the CEO's to decide on Capt. Fake's Accomplish...

lets hope All are enlightened enough to deal with this case.

[68+iou1]

Apparently, he was a fake TRI as well.
What happens to the licences/type ratings that have his signature on the paperwork?

[Pointer]

The latest: Capt.Fåke :\ will remain in custody atleast 2 more weeks, the court has stated.

[itwasme]

More on the Airtours chap:

Express.co.uk - Home of the Daily and Sunday Express | UK News :: Cheating pilot’s new career is flying high (http://www.dailyexpress.co.uk/posts/view/51398)

[J.O.]

He should have stayed with photography. His work is pretty good, and no licensing issues. :cool:

Then again, he may have become addicted to the adrenaline rush that came with his continuing deception. :suspect:

[eastern wiseguy]

ITWASME

More on the Airtours chap:

Express.co.uk - Home of the Daily and Sunday Express | UK News :: Cheating pilot’s new career is flying high

Which leads to....


Now, seven years later, he has taken a job with Scottish airline flyglobespan after properly passing his pilot exams.

didn't they stop trading?.....

[Pointer]

Eastern "not so" := Wiseguy; check the date of the article.. "Monday July 7,2008" :hmm:

just kidding, could have overlooked that as well... Not :E

[Roddenty]

J.O.
He should have stayed with photography. His work is pretty good, and no licensing issues.

But are they his photos? Copyright issues?

That's the trouble with Walts...

[silverstrata]

Interesting thread.

But if this guy worked in England, then he must have been through that 'tight' security check they call 'Scotland' (why?), so why did 'Scotland' not write to Sweden and find out?

[Roddenty]

Silverstrata:

But if this guy worked in England, then he must have been through that 'tight' security check they call 'Scotland'.


Good point - you mean Disclosure Scotland, the UK's security agency.

Disclosure Scotland (http://www.disclosurescotland.co.uk/)

Yes, what is the point of Disclosure Scotland, and all the time and money it takes from us, if it cannot discover a fake licence?

In fact, has Disclosure Scotland ever prevented any 'bad apples' from getting airside? - or is the entire department a complete waste of space?

[Dengue_Dude]

I cannot help but 'feel' that these people are, for some unfathomable reason, protected.

A two year sentence (potentially) - wow, that should deter them. Can you imagine the company's insurance bill if there is an accident and it turns out a Walt is in control - it beggars belief.

I also surmise based upon unproven hearsay, but knowing the characters who responded in the most 'twitchy' fashion during the Airtours investigations, I can believe, this is merely the tip of the iceberg.

One 'slimboy fat' springs to mind all these years later. He was even phoning around looking for moral support for Heavensake.

I mean, who checks when an employee says they have a degree for instance?

[Sepp]

Disclosure Scotland is a load of tripe. I am in the middle of a (long-running) battle with them. They claim I have provided "false details" about where I've lived. Strangely, the various credit checking agencies seem to know where I was, and when - as does the Child Support Agency. As their record of dates/places agree with mine, I am apparently not (totally) mad. Sadly, though, DS cannot discuss which bits of information are in dispute for "security reasons", but they are keen to stress that their information "cannot" be wrong.

Anyhoo, they do at least agree that I must have been living at my current address since the start of this charade - as they've successfully been in contact with me since then - so, only four months to go and I'll pass the test having then lived here for five years.... so all will be safe and well again. :ugh:

Unless, of course, I'm not me at all but someone claiming to be me, at this address.

Typical useless UK claptrap. :yuk:

[manxcat]

More on the Airtours chap:

Express.co.uk - Home of the Daily and Sunday Express | UK News :: Cheating pilot’s new career is flying high

I thought someone with a criminal conviction couldn't obtain an airside pass?

A suspended prison sentence of more than six months isn't classed as 'spent' for 10 years from conviction. In this case 2011. Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 (http://www.lawontheweb.co.uk/rehabact.htm)

Surely, Disclosure Scotland's Basic Disclosure would have highlighted this?

Maybe I'm wrong...

[captplaystation]

No , you are right, but only some offences are "disqualifying", like , for instance leaving the filling station and forgetting to pay at 4 in the morning because you were totally knackered after a night Tenerife.

Strangely enough, fraud involving "fixing" your log book doesn't feature on the list, whilst any number of relatively benign offences do.

The list doesn't really give the impression of having in any way been influenced by anyone who knows cack-all about aviation, seems to have been drawn up at the "chief constables ball" :hmm:

[Slickster]

Also, don't forget that DS can only uncover convictions in the UK, and yet any EU national has the right to live and work in the UK, and could have any number of convictions in other countries. Strangely enough they won't have any in the UK, because they've never lived here, so will be deemed "clean" by DS. What a joke.

[Hansard]

I've lived in the UK all my life. My airside pass for a UK airport took 12 weeks to come through. Four pilots from overseas, who had never lived a day in the UK, joined the company at the same time and got their passes in 3 weeks.

[Private jet]

I think that this kind of thing goes on more than we realise. Personally i knew someone that had a genuine license but it was issued on the basis of a lot of fake entries in his logbook. In fact he fabricated an entire flying career in the RAF! He got a job with an airline in the UK and it was 3 years before he was rumbled. This was only by chance as he was on a conversion course and a fellow trainee on said course had actually been on so and so squadron at the same time as this character was supposedly there. Of course the facts didnt fit. All that said however he passed every test, course, check etc he did and was to all intents and purposes a competent pilot. Safety was not an issue, just cheating the honest people. This is an extreme example but i have also known loads of people "round up" logbook entries, or make an "error" adding the times up!

[MathFox]

Private jet, the issue is one of competence versus certification; I rather have a competent uncertified pilot in the driver seat than an incompetent certified one. It you're complaining about rounding up logbook entries, you fail to see the forest for the trees. Flight time shows experience, which might breed competence... it is only during a test when one gets to demonstrate one's competence to an (hopefully honest) examiner. I think the airline practice of sim and line checks is more important for safety than the certification system.

BTW, I don't mind when onece in a while a pilot gets convicted for "logbook fraud"; aviation authorities may draw their conclusions from such a conviction too, but what conclusions are fair I would not know: scratching out thousands of proven flight hours, backed by airline files would be unfair.

[Private jet]

Mathfox i agree with you but what i was trying to say is that he cheated someone who had done things honestly out of a job. Are you saying that the authorities should continue to turn a blind eye to this kind of activity purely because, fortunately, they get found out without any incidents occuring where people get injured or lose their lives? Also if a degree of "fiddling" is permisable i.e padding logbook entries right thru to faking licenses where does it end? More and more pilots eager to advance their prospects and careers will fake it more and more. Its human nature i'm afraid. Yes, my example shows that experience is not everything and i'm definately of the thought that with modern aircraft the current training system of using light aircraft to get qualified is woefully out of date (MPL is progress it seems to me) but cheating is cheating whichever way you look at it and thats what needs to be stamped on and stamped on hard or it will be the thin end of the wedge. Many poor sods have worked extremely hard, made personal sacrifices and accumulated vast financial debts to get qualified, but hey just fake your license and bypass that!

[S76Heavy]

If one is prepared to cheat and lie about flying hours, what else is one prepared to lie about? Could be unrecorded safety critical information...

I agree, if found out to have been cheating, one should be disqualified from holding a professional licence for having demonstrated a massive lack of integrity. And one of the characteristics certainly a captain should posess, is integrity. Probably a very oldfashioned view in todays industry..

[White Ghost]

I know that Brazilian Licenses are Credit Card like and come with holograms, Safe and Trusty!:ok:

[Avenger]

The whole global checking system is flawed, Disclosure Scotland..out of xxx years ago we had a Chinese cabin attendant, name you could not pronounce, lived in China most of her life but spoke good English. She applied to Disclosure using an "adopted name" in fact her course nick name, for instance "Jenny" Believe it or not she got a disclosure certificate even though "Jenny Fung " did not actually exist.. and she got a full airside pass. She then moved to XXX where Proteus did a full check..yep you guessed it..another pass. In her case she saw nothing wrong with "westernising" herself and was qualified to do the job and properly trained, however, the point is unless they have reason to look deeper they probably wont and where documents are in a strange script they wont translate them but rely on the application form. Companies only tend to dig back in history enough to rubber stamp the applications, allbeit aircrew or cabin crew and rely on the prima facie evidence, which, if " professionally" presented provides little clues to foul play. Of course, for flight crew, a good sim check or knowledge bank just serves to reinforce the story, and it is easy to see how these events occur and even easier to see how difficult they are to stop. Thankfully many authorities now issue letters of authentication for licence holders directly to prospective employers. Fake TRI?, even a genuine TRI can't sign a licence, has to be a TRE, however,if the "fake TRI" did sim sessions as part of a Type Rating course it would not count, summary, the course would have not complied and the rating would not be valid.

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

MathFox - I do not agree with your analysis here. I suspect that from what you are written, you are not a professional pilot. That is absolutely fine but most pilots would completely disagree with you. If an individual has obtained 'real' hours by lying and deception, as was the case with the Airtours guy, then he should not be rewarded for doing so. In my judjement he has disqualified himself from future employment as a commercial pilot at any time in the future. The key thing here is that not only must there be punishment of the individual but also warning for others not to do the same thing. There are many thousands of young people who are submitting themselves to the rigours of professional examinations and selection against their peers for the relatively small numbers of jobs available. Someone with, for example, a military fast jet background is much more likely to gain employment than someone without. If that experience turns out to be falsified then the indiviudal has gained a totally unfair advantage. He must not be seen to profit in any way from such deceit. It is no different from employing a surgeon who never really was one, but who actually carried out dozens of appendix removals on the grounds that he actually now has a lot of experience. We simply cannot have such people around our industry to avoid any possible encouragement to others who would contemplate such dishonesty.

[manxcat]

In my judjement he has disqualified himself from future employment as a commercial pilot at any time in the future.

NSF,

The scary thing is - he hasn't!

According to the 2008 Daily Mail article,

Now, seven years later, he has taken a job with Scottish airline flyglobespan after properly passing his pilot exams.

it appeared the former bogus pilot had rehabilitated himself, after convincing bosses at the Edinburgh-based airline to employ him.

a flyglobespan insider said: “Professional pilots must possess two character traits – strength of character and integrity. :ugh:

I am working slowly but surely, spending hard earned money to legitimately obtain my CPL/IR. I've wanted to fly professionally from being a kid but not once has the thought crossed my mind to invent my hours or experience.

As you rightly said, if he pretended to be a doctor then he woudn't get a second chance to make a comeback. Impersonating a medical professional is a serious offence. Why should this not apply to aviation?

[rottenray]

... it were a pilot's market for employment instead of an airline's market for employment.

-----

The guy is prolly a good pilot - he would have been weeded out or had a major incident / accident under his belt by now if he weren't...

But with so many good, 100% legit pilots out of work at the moment, I hope they give him a stiff penalty.

He's been occupying a seat which should have been filled with someone who not only wanted to be a pro pilot (as he did) but who had planned his / her life around it and took the significant, costly, sometimes-socially-punitive steps to make his / her career a reality.

Book 'im, Danno!

[Dan Winterland]

''I am working slowly but surely, spending hard earned money to legitimately obtain my CPL/IR. I've wanted to fly professionally from being a kid but not once has the thought crossed my mind to invent my hours or experience.''


Unfortunately manxcat, not everyone has the same integrity as you. This industry is perceived as being romantic and glamourous and although it tends to attract the dreamers and Walter Mitty types which generally are harmless, it also attracts the dishonest and unscrupulous who will do anything to get ahead and try and beat the system. These people are a danger. It's not for no good reason that the system requires high levels of experience and licensing. Someone has already mentioned the character Dudley from Ernest Gann's autoibiography, ''Fate is the Hunter". Dudley go into a position of trust with a forged licence and logbook and eventually ended up killing some of his passengers.

I have only experienced two people with forged hours and in both cases they were sumarily dissmissed on being found out. But I have heard of others and some who even boast of their "P51'' hours - that's Parker 51 and not Mustang. In these cases. I would have no compunction in reporting them. Not only are they licenced beyond their ability, they are untrustworthy and dishonest. If they show such a lack of integrity with something so important, how are they going to behave in other circumstances which they may decide aren't so important as to warrent their full honesty.

As for the fake RAF Pilot, I'm amased he found further employment. I know my company wouldn't take him. What does it say for the airlines that have?

[Global Warrior]

There's also an insurance issue. If you know of someone that has falsified their records and it is later proved that you knew and didnt do anything about it, you are making yourself and your company insurers jointly liable in case that person does have an incident.

GW

[silverstrata]

Mathfox:
Private jet, the issue is one of competence versus certification; I rather have a competent uncertified pilot in the driver seat than an incompetent certified one.

So you would be happy to wake up after an operation, and find out that your surgeon was actually a bricklayer - but that they were 'good with their hands'?

I think you misunderstand why we have ATPL courses and licences that demonstrate we have taken those courses.

[silverstrata]

Sepp:
Disclosure Scotland is a load of tripe. I am in the middle of a (long-running) battle with them. They claim I have provided "false details" about where I've lived.

They are box-tickers, like so much of modern government, with no thought for doing a proper job.

A buddy was knocked back by Scotland because he had a gap in his record - walkabout in Oz. They would not accept that he had no address for this period - so he invented one - a photoshoped hotel record.

He knew it was a lie, Scotland knew it was a lie, but Scotland was now happy, a box had been ticked.

[Coopz67]

......He just had enough of being refered to as SLF instead of a customer who pays your wages or maybe an irritating geek who flies online for a virtual airline, who "knows nothing about real flying".

I say job well done for putting some really odious "special" people on this site in their place for proving it ain't that special.
Insulting remarks on a thread here coming soon.
Off now to fly my computer...Hang on don't they fly planes nowadays.....Oh!

:O:O:O:O:O:O

[MathFox]

silverstrata:
MathFox:
Private jet, the issue is one of competence versus certification; I rather have a competent uncertified pilot in the driver seat than an incompetent certified one. So you would be happy to wake up after an operation, and find out that your surgeon was actually a bricklayer - but that they were 'good with their hands'?In this case it appeared that the "photographer" held a CPL once and got several months of type training... Would compare to a bricklayer that passed most of the exams in medical school.

[Tediek]

He got released from detention yesterday awaiting his trial...

[Enzo 391]

Sorry MathFox the "photographer" had only a PPL+IR that had expired years ago.He was also wanted by the police but they did not "find" him as he was hiding in Corendon protected by the DFO.He was flying around with new FO:s that were buying flight hours on the Boeing 737 from the company and now i think that this FO:s can log it as PIC hours.
Who employed him in the first place and who checked his references?
I think he is more dangerous than a bricklayer and now that he is out again he might go to Africa for a new contract.He have done that before!:*

[paulomarko]

It happens in othe professions too! Read this link about a doctor in New Zealand : Doctor desperate when he forged certificate - Yahoo!Xtra News (http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/6956385/doctor-desperate-when-he-forged-certificate/)

There are bogus dentists, engineers, lawyers, psychiatrists..........the list goes on. What is amazing are the lack of due diligence by employers and regulators in not spotting these people sooner!

[mr Q]

Reports say the man was relieved his long deception was uncovered and tore off his pilot's stripes in the cockpit.
BBC report

[maxred]

Following on the DS thread, it may have changed, but until very recently,if a person gave their employer a false NI number, the employer paid against that, and the NI computer 'created' a new reference - i.e. no tie up to the person who was actually employed. Benefit cheats used this for many years. The whole system was totally chaotic. Secondly with the influx of Europeans, all they require to do in the UK is arrive, visit our Benefit agency, get an 'employers address', this allows a new NI identity, bank account, and armed with all that, presto, a new UK life. Is it any wonder that individuals, with a modicom of common sense, be what they want to be. Evidently this 'pilot' managed to co-erse countless agencies and people. The tick box scenario:*.

[Bill G Kerr]

Maybe Peter Burkill should be reading this thread .....

[cTcPilot]

This is Shocking! How on earth did the guy get away with for so long!!
Saying that, I know of a source( JAA state) for €15,000 will issue you with a very real but fake JAA CPL/ MEIR/ MCC & TR.
For this €15,000 you will actually get a REAL FAA PPL A, a couple hours flying IFR rules in a small twin and a few hours sitting in a Citation!

This stuff goes on all over the world im affraid!

Go on the black market, you can by yourself almost any PHd out there and even a ATPL!!!!!!!

[Green Guard]

Saying that, I know of a source( JAA state) for €15,000 will issue you with a very real but fake JAA CPL/ MEIR/ MCC & TR.

Seeeeee....... even you are protecting these pirates....

Why not name that JAA state ?

PS. They may get boost in their dirty business, but in the same time they may have to give some answers to the rest of world...

[julie marshall]

OK HERES AN INTERESTING QUESTION

PILOT HAS BRITISH JAA ATPL LICENCE, HE HAS NOT HOWEVER RENEWED HIS LPC (SAY FOR HIS 737) WITHIN HIS JAA LICENCE FOR TWO OR THREE YEARS. HE THEN HAS A SIM RIDE BY A CHECK PILOT FROM ANOTHER COUNTRY, (MIDDLE EAST, ASIA, AFRICA etc) THEN THE GOVERNMENT OF THAT COUNTRY GIVE HIM A VALIDATION (SCRATTY BIT OF PAPER) SAYING "ISSUED ON THE BASIS OF HIS UK ATPL AND IN ACCORDANCE WITH ICAO ANNEX 1 AND CURRENT RULES AND REGULATIONS OF TIMBUKTOO CAA" WITH A PROVISO THAT THE VALIDATION ONLY ALLOWS HIM TO 'EXCERCISE THE PRIVILEGES OF HIS UK ATPL ON TIMBUKTOO REGISTERED AIRCRAFT' AND THEN HE LANDS A 737 AT LONDON HEATHROW.


HE HAS A VALIDATION BASED ON THE PRIVILEGES OF HIS BRITISH JAA LICECE WHICH I BELIEVE IS NOT CURRENT AS HIS JAA LPC (RATING -CERTIFICATE OF REVALIDATION) HAS NOT BEEN SIGNED BY A UK OR JAA APPROVED EXAMINER FOR SEVERAL YEARS

QUESTION IS:

WILL BRITISH CAA DURING A RAMP CHECK, STOP THIS PILOT FROM OPERATING IN BRITISH AIRSPACE ?

I WOULD BE GLAD TO READ INFORMED REPLIES.

[captplaystation]

If the scrap of paper is issued on the back of an effectively expired license I would say the scrap of paper is even more worthless than is usually the case.
Effectively he is flying unlicensed, and could and indeed should be prevented from commanding an aircraft in UK airspace if this lapse comes to the appropriate authorities attention, whether it is the home country of the licence or A.N.OTHER.

Of course "could" and "should" are not the same as "will".

One of the mysteries of this whole story is how the guy managed to get a Turkish (UK too when with Jet2? ) validation without either of these, and possibly other authorities, cross checking with the Swedes that his ATPL and B737 rating actually existed.
For me , that is perhaps even more scandalous than the actions of the individual concerned. Finally, if no one checks, why do they bother giving you a validation anyhow. . . dog licence ? T.V. licence ? fishing permit ? Yeah Yeah any of those will be fine :ugh:

[CAPTAINNIC]

as one colleague put right beforehand: that is only the tip of the iceberg:

there are pilots in AI, KAL and alike who faked their hours on type ( B777 ) as to get the job.
ok they might be rated on type but did not actually have the required hours on type...

and the honest guys are automatically in the disadvantage...

sad but true..

[Roddenty]

WILL BRITISH CAA DURING A RAMP CHECK, STOP THIS PILOT FROM OPERATING IN BRITISH AIRSPACE ?


Sounds angry. Ex husband, by any chance?? :ok::ok::ok:

[captplaystation]

Well, that is a really strongly worded warning to the rest of us :rolleyes:

I think he should be very grateful they finally caught up with him in the "liberal" :8 Netherlands, may not have been so pretty in Turkey for example.


Anyway, just popping out to post my application for a 777 job, 737 rating should just about do it Eh :D

[NG_Kaptain]

why is julie SHOUTING?

[Tediek]

Unbelievable that the guy gets off with such a LIGHT penalty. Thats nothing.

[fox niner]

It may seem a light sentence, but a conviction like this will not help in his next job application. I reckon he will never fly again.

[Brenoch]

The sentence is similar to what I once got for speeding in my car. :ugh:

[captplaystation]

fox niner,

Strange this, but maybe less of a problem than you think.
In the UK (don't know about other countries) only certain offences are disqualifying for the issue of an airside pass.
AFAIK fraud (or whatever he was finally charged with) does not appear to be one of them, and the fact that he didn't receive a jail sentence makes it even less serious in this respect.

Of course he would have to get a licence, and probably change his name, but compared to what he has done so far that isn't so much of a problem.

My betting is that aviation hasn't seen the end of this guy.

[Roddenty]

Unbelievable that the guy gets off with such a LIGHT penalty. Thats nothing.


Hmm.

JAA ATPL - €100,000 and three years.

Pronto Print ATPL - €2,000 and one afternoon.

Sounds like a no-brainer to me.

[MathFox]

In other reports it is mentioned that the pilot also was banned from flying for a year... That would mean a serious loss of income, loss of currency and such.

[S76Heavy]

seeing as his entire income earned as a pilot was the result of a fraudulent act (probably more than one), I could not care less about his income situation. In fact, as the Netherlands have a law that makes it possible to strip assets acquired by illegal means from convicted felons, I wonder if anyone in the legal system would be prepared to go after his estate to make it clear that it is NOT a worthwhile option to commit fraud to gain employment in this industry.

If not, then would any company be willing to sue in a civil case for damages?

I would be most unhappy if this clown just walks away with a 2000 euro fine and a book contract..

[Hot Rod]

MathFox: Ehhh... Are you joking??? The guy does not even have a license.

Banned from flying for a year when he has been flying illegal for 13 years...

That sentence is a big big joke... Why bother with a license?

[non iron]

Lost count of the people with a licence who can`t fly, and, in fact are dangerous, l`ve flown with over the years and l find it a hoot that the situation has been reversed.

Bye the bye, how many people pontificating here have a current atpl ?

30% ? same thing really l respectfully submit.

Also, with reference to chickens and eggs, l really don`t think that "instructors" came first.

The whole thing is brilliant !

[captplaystation]

I understand he was a de facto "line trainer".

Where does that leave his trainees ?

[non iron]

apparently competent.

[Optimistic-aviator]

I remember the chap caught at the UK airline years ago, he was a very competent, nice guy. How he got the licence is another matter. He had a valid UK licence when he joined the company. The CAA issued his licence and one assumes went through his log book as they did at that time and I assume still do. As far as I am aware his references checked out etc. As I recall he only got caught because he told everyone he flew with the RAF. He one day mentioned a Squadron and date to the wrong person who did not remember him from his own time with the same Squadron, he had been on the squadron during the same period as this gentleman claimed to have been there. Questions were asked and the rest is history.

These things can and do happen from time to time. I remember being told by some friends who had been flying in the US many years ago that they watched a chap taxi in and park leaving his aircraft with it's engine running on the flight line. He then walked in to the restaurant and ordered breakfast. After a short while they decided to mention to the chap that he had left his engine running thinking perhaps he was just a little absent minded. They were a little shocked by his reply, he smiled politely and said he was building hours! He was logging his hours on the Hobbs meter. His flying was apparently being paid for by his national airline!

I guess this sort of fraud happens in all walks of life one way or another, telling fibs about academic qualifications or experience etc. I seem to remember the wife of a UK politician was accused of doing this recently.

A friend who runs a computer company sets a practical test for new engineers as he has been caught before by such practices.

If someone is good at their job and has got in to that position by lying about qualifications they will only be found out if they give you a reason to look more closely at their history. One would like to think with all the checks these days in our industry it is very unlikely someone could get away with it now.

[JW411]

I have come across this sort of subterfuge twice in my career.

The first incident was quickly sorted out. The person concerned was claiming seniority and promotion based upon his flying time in the RAF. Sadly for him, the 5,000 hours or so that he was claiming was not earned while sitting in a seat that had a window view.

The second one was a real Walter Mitty character who ended up as an LTC on the DC-10. He would regale us all down the route (especially the girls) with stories of how he ferried Hunters to the Far East in the RAF which must have been a particularly clever trick since he had never been a pilot in the RAF.

The interesting thing is that he would continue to recite these yarns even after I (and many others) had pointed out the above to him.

I am sure that it is a total coincidence but both of them had been navigators.

[Optimistic-aviator]

JW411

Aviation is full of characters :)

[Wirbelsturm]

There was also the chap, back in the 'old days' when Singapore 'hosted' applicants and their families, who applied for a 747 post with SA.

He turned up with licence and log book, complete with current 747 rating, stepped into the simulator at Changi and promptly stalled it on take off.

Lots of head scratching by the Training Captain and the sim engineers who concluded that it must have been a sim fault. Sent said applicant away for a couple of days full board in Singapore whilst the sim was checked. Second attempt resulted in the same outcome as the first.

During the stunned silence the applicant threw his hands up and admitted that he had forged all the documents and just wanted some free time in Singapore!

How true the story is I will leave up to you but it does make a good yarn!

:}

[RadAlt2010]

Fake Swedish pilot flies passenger jets for 13 years without a licence... and is fined just £1,700

Read more: Fake Swedish pilot Thomas Salme flies Air One jets for 13 years | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1279083/Fake-Swedish-pilot-Thomas-Salme-flies-Air-One-jets-13-years.html#ixzz0oCeeJ7GZ)

[pilot999]

did he keep his job:)

[anvil79]

In this neck of the wood there were a few folk that had very 'creative' logbooks when accruing time for a CPL. there were various ways, go to the US lose your logbook swear an affidavit saying it had 10k hrs in it when you lost it (how and if the CAA fell for this I don't know), Go to the US and 2 or three share some cheap time - all logging it as P1. Glider towing etc ...who knows how many hours you really did.

All good clean fun!:E

[mohamed arab]

dear sir
dont you thing that some one should check all the pilots of that airlines for saftey reason because during 13 years it could be more pilot without lic.:confused::ok::=

[lexxie747]

lefel 4 inglis profitzient?

[PLovett]

I find it quite remarkable that this chap was able to pass all sim checks etc for 13 years with, as I understand, only some self-taught time in a simulator and then had an unremarkable career flying in some of the most crowded sky with some of the foulest weather.

Makes me think I'd rather have him up front than some licensed aircrew given their failings, as revealed in the crash reports being published lately.

[BarbiesBoyfriend]

Oh Lordy!

The truth at last, spoken.

Someone who can do the job v. someone with a license who cannot.:ooh:

[S76Heavy]

Flying is about aptitude as well as attitude.

He has demonstrated his aptitude but with that lack if integrity is sadly failing in the attitude department.