Reclining Seats - Why?

[Gazeem]

Why do charter airlines insist on having reclining seats?

I thought the airlines were trying to prevent air rage?

Do they not realise that the inconsiderate neanderthal in front of you who insists in ramming his seat back in to your knees is going to cause air rage?

why? Why? WHy? WHY?

[justapax]

.. and not just charter airlines either. Any short-haul.

If any European airline is planning to install a few clevis pins in the appropriate places, to make seats non-reclineable, please tell me. It's definitely something I would take into account when choosing who gets my custom. I already *do* take into account seat pitch... and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

[Avman]

Quite right! Of course, reclining seats came to be at a time when even in Economy one enjoyed 34-36 inches (I'm talking scheduled piston props here). It's got tighter and tighter over the years and, indeed, if airlines are going to insist packing them in they should eliminate the recline option.

On the other hand, one could argue that if you want to pay rock bottom prices, you shouldn't expect too much in terms of comfort either. In my opinion we are slowly going back to three (even four) class cabins in a sort of 1st, 2nd, 3rd (and 4th) class system.

1st = FIRST
2nd = BUSINESS
3rd = SUPER ECONOMY
4th = DISCOUNTED ECONOMY (cattle class)

Maybe they should rename them: LUXURY, EXECUTIVE, REGULAR and DISCOUNT?

[justapax]

I think a lotapax would settle for sensibly priced flights from regionals.

Currently the choice is generally a packed flight from an airport located in a knot of traffic at 50p (for the flight) plus £ 50 airport tax, or a roomier one at triple the price from a regional. Why are the latter so expensive? Monopolistic practices did I hear someone whisper?

Maybe one airline will be brave enough to price regional/BRU (as an example) at £ 20 over the cost of their LHR/BRU, and see if it suddenly becomes popular. Easy access to airport, cheaper parking, quicker check-in etc.... These things are worth £ 20, to me at least, but not £ 100 each leg.

I doubt we'd complain if they flew us in older planes with bigger seat pitches, and consequently a more realistic chance of getting the carry-on luggage into the overhead lockers.

Maybe.

We can dream....

[TinnedSardine]

And I thought I was the only miserable sucker who always winds up behind the jerk who puts his seat back through the whole flight! The last two times I flew from SFO to LHR, the £@!!! in front reclined the seat immediately after we levelled off--TEN HOURS of having the seat in front of me jammed in my face--no room to even put down the tray! I could understand it a few hours into the flight, after the meal...But even during the meal?! What really got me was the creep was leaning forward a lot of the time, trying to reach his tray. Why does anyone do this? Is it some selfish desire to have a few extra inches at the expense of the guy behind? Next time it happens, I think I might just be provoked to air rage! People just have no sense of respect for anyone else around them. I would LOVE nonreclinable seats!

[Self Loading Freight]

I agree completely -- reclining seats in Y class or on charters are an absolute pain. Yes, I've had the berk in front who puts the seat back from the very microsecond it's allowed to the moment it's not (and beyond). No, I've never been that berk.

Why we can't be given the choice, I don't know. You want a reclining seat? Then pay for it in a class that's got enough room to allow it. They wouldn't put veal calves in the sort of space left to us after knobfeatures in front has pressed the button. Time to invent some sort of medical condition -- vertical claustrophobia? -- that puts the carriers in mortal fear of a class action lawsuit. That's the only sort of language these people understand...

R

[justapax]

Nice one SLF, excellent idea!

[lalapanzi]

Well I've been, how did you put it, one of those berks. http://smilecwm.tripod.com/net6/wave.gif

And why shouldn't I. Is it my fault the airline wishes to operate with reclining seats. Is it my fault you're the berk behind.

If you want more legroom pay the premiums and move closer to the front, but then you're probably British, and will suffer in silence for the duration of the flight, then complain to all your mates afterwards - very BRITISH. http://smilecwm.tripod.com/net6/thefinger_red.gif

[leftwingdownabit]

Well I suppose SLF could have asked you Mr Berk to move the seat off of his patella to allow him to eat his meal. However this may have been met with a **** off why should I, and possible aggravation and air rage, so he chooses to suffer in silence. Unfortunately there are too many people who have no common courtesy at all and refuse to think about the wishes of others. The only way to stop these narrow minded self-opinionated people is for the airlines to make non-reclining seats in cattle class. Until that time, do as someone suggested on another thread and devise a home made anti-recline device. Or ask for the jumpseat perhaps :)

[This message has been edited by leftwingdownabit (edited 25 August 2000).]

[lalapanzi]

http://smilecwm.tripod.com/net6/nono.gif
So I'm right then it's the airlines fault not mine for reclining seats.

Yes you could always ask me to move my seat to the upright position whilst you eat, because like you I also like to have my own seat in that position for meals,, saves on the drycleaning. http://smilecwm.tripod.com/net6/walksmil.gif

[Self Loading Freight]

It's not just during the meal, Lala. It's for the entire flight. The meal is just the worst part.

I choose not to recline, because in my opinion a flight with someone else's seatback in your face is unbearable, far outweighing the moderate increase in comfort for the recliner -- and why should I inflict something on someone else that I can't stand myself? Doesn't seem fair...

R

(but I do sometimes fart in public, for the joy of it. Just call me inconsistent ;))

[lalapanzi]

http://smilecwm.tripod.com/net6/moon.gif Where does fair come into the issue. I pay for a seat - the airline when purchasing their fleet have seats that recline - why - so that I may sit in comfort during my travels http://smilecwm.tripod.com/cwm/eek2.gif

Now don't get me wrong if all airline seats did not recline I would still travel, but as they do I feel I am entitled to excerise my right to relax. http://smilecwm.tripod.com/net7/biggthumpup.gif

[TinnedSardine]

So, I guess I was right then. It is willful selfishness at the expense of the person behind you. On my last flight, even the flight attendant took pity on me and, seeing as I didn't even have room to put my tray down to eat, was nice enough to ask the neanderthal in front if he would put his seat up so that she could put my food down. He grunted and grudgingly moved up a barely noticeable inch or so. He then ate his meal looking uncomfortable, leaning forward at an awkward angle in order to reach HIS food. Better that, I suppose, than to allow the sucker sitting behind you to be able to eat (or breathe) in anything other than misery and discomfort. On a ten hour flight! We're all animals here, ready to gouge each other's eyes out for an extra inch or two.

[ExSimGuy]

How about the HORIZONTALS?

I find it just as annoying when some guy gets seated next to me who can barely get his @ss between the arm-rests. That same guy usually has no concept of keeping his paravanes tucked into his sides when using knife and fork. I end up leaning half-way into the aisle to try to get clearance to eat my own meal without his elbows knocking my food off the fork and into my lap! http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/confused.gif

How about a guage like the one used to check cabin baggage for size, but designed to ensure that pax who travel in economy can actually fit into an economy seat! If they don't fit, then either make them pay for an upgrade to a seat they do fit, or seat them beside another similarly "girth enhanced" pax so the rest of us don't suffer! :rolleyes: :)



------------------
Through hardship to the bars

[lalapanzi]

think you will find it's called discrimination :)

[ExSimGuy]

Probably - but if it means I can eat my meal without it going all over my lap - I'm all for discrimination!! ;)

[Self Loading Freight]

Lala--

I'm entitled to do a lot of things. I know my rights. But a society built from people who behave as if the only thing that matters is that they can do what the hell they like to the limits of the rules, regardless of how it affects others, is a pain in the backside.

There's more to living in a community than the solipsitic exercise of one's rights. Behaving with consideration towards others might seem antiquated, but it really does end up with everyone having a better time of things (curiously, you can even prove this with maths -- if you're interested, go and look up the Prisoner's Dilemma). On an a/c, where we are locked into a tiny space with hundreds of others for hours without respite, it's even more important to behave with a degree of respect for others.

Let's say that you decide to slap your seat back for a nice relaxing stretch for the duration of the eleven hour flight to LA or wherever. The bloke behind you is drunk, desperate for a fag, claustrophobic, having problems with the tax people, his girlfriend... he's really, really stressed, and being pinned into his seat for the flight is one step too far. Bang. He goes postal, lashes out at all and sundry, has to be restrained, the flight diverts...

Air rage. You are a contributory factor. "But I've paid for this seat, it reclines, I'm quite within my rights" you say. Which you are, but by choosing to exercise those rights you're making things far worse for everyone and endangering the flight. It's not your fault -- the bloke who goes nuts has that responsibility -- but you are part of the problem.

If you *knew* that the above scenario was going to happen before you pressed the button, would you still recline? Or would you choose not to exercise your right?

I'm really interested to hear your reply, and your reasoning.

R

[Vortex Wake]

Seems we are getting close to computer rage http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/redface.gif
Unless the seat in front is well out of your way seats should NOT recline http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif as your comfort is at the directly at the expense of someone else (esp cheapo class)
I find the worst thing is being so close next to a stranger.

[lalapanzi]

Simple, given your senario the self-respecting drunk would not have been on the flight in the first place - can't stand drunks & if I see one about to get on my flight ensure he's off-loaded.......danger to himself & all around him.

No-one has told me why airlines have reclining seats if it's so against the interests of the travelling public.

I'm tired attended numerous meeting, made loadsa cash for my company, having to airline home - prospect of more meetings next day - I need some sleep - find I'm not related to Dracula and unable to sleep in the upright position - so use the aids supplied to me by the airline.

Now if that annoys other passengers take it up the airline concerned. I'm a reasonable person - well to a point. I'll even help you eat your meal if you ask me nicely. http://smilecwm.tripod.com/net/deg.gif

[BRUpax]

SLF, I can fully comprehend your points and I don't disagree. however, don't take it out on LALPANZI & his Reclining Band; they are not to blame. They are given the option to recline by the airline. The blame lies squarely with the airlines. They have reduced seat pitches to unacceptable levels of comfort and yet continue to provide the recline option. It's time for an enterprizing American lawyer to start a class action. we need a Minimum Comfort law.

[Self Loading Freight]

Lala--

OK, pretend he's not drunk but just stressed to the point of breaking. Would you recline?


BRUpax--

I'm not 'taking it out' on Lala et al, but I am interested in his perception of his actions and their repercussions. The debate I'm hoping to have should explore some of these issues.

As for the airlines providing reclining seats in the first place at a pitch where such things are ludicrous, it's clear that this isn't in the interests of the travelling public but it's also obvious how we got there and why the problem continues... but I do think we as individuals have some responsibility for militating against the worst excesses visited upon us by corporate thoughtlessness.

R

[TinnedSardine]

Thank you, SLF. Brilliantly put. Some of the comments on this thread remind me of my neighbor. Her teenage kid used to do something horrible and loud and jarring, over and over and over again, usually all day, every day. When I begged her to ask him to stop, she became quite indignant and said that it was HIS RIGHT, and that it was the principle of it--he should be allowed to do whatever he wants, as long as he gets pleasure out of it! It's legal! That sort of inconsiderate thinking translated to the confines of a very crowded, very uncomfortable airplane can make for a very miserable experience. It's honestly amazing to me that more people don't become air rage statistics on planes. And, yes, part of the problem is with the people who design planes with all of the comfort of a factory farm chicken operation. At a certain point you'd think that perhaps it shouldn't be legal. Isn't it a safety issue, if you are so pinned into your seat that you can't move?!

[lalapanzi]

SLF
At the end of the day we are all victims of circumstance. If we must travel long distance from A to B in the shortist possible time then flying offers the answer.

It does amaze me the number of people that appear stressed when they fly :) If it scares the hell out of them that much then don't.

How many of these stressed passengers are smokers?

The ecomonics unfortunately are the major player with the airlines. Reducing seat pitch has allowed them to carry more passengers. Seats appear narrower or are we larger! :eek

And yes the stressed passenger would have to ask me to move my seat further upright if he/she was finding it a problem. Lets be honest how would I know the person behind me is stressed, unless of course everyone on the flight is stressed!!

I haven't the time to get stressed decided a long time along it just not good for you ;)

[Cyrano]

At 6'3" I've folded myself into cattle-class seats on several occasions only to have the passenger in front attempt to recline their seat. Neither my patella nor my femur is particularly compressible and I've found that after a few seconds of murmurs from them to their neighbour of "It doesn't seem to want to go back...", I can lean forward and explain apologetically that I am already pinned into my seat and it won't be possible for them to recline theirs. Usually this works OK. Of course, if I've had the misfortune to be stretching my legs out into the aisle to get the blood circulating again at the moment when the person in front reclines his (or her) seat, I'm in trouble and have to fight a rearguard action... (as it were).

Eternal vigilance, that's what's needed.

Oh, and trying to avoid this situation in the first place by always, ALWAYS asking for an exit row seat.

[Self Loading Freight]

Lala--

Thanks for your reply, although it wasn't really answering the question. Doesn't matter how you knew, and assume that the bloke behind isn't going to ask you nicely to put your seat up before blowing his top. People don't always behave logically under stress.

So, if you *knew* beforehand that reclining your seat would cause a problem, would you do it?

Tinned--

Yes, I think it's a safety issue, and one that isn't discussed enough. People would never think of just taking a stool from somebody else's table in a pub without asking, yet do consider it entirely appropriate to slap their seat back on a plane without so much as a murmur. Which of these two actions is the more invasive? Why does nobody even ask first?

R

[lalapanzi]

SLF
sorry not avoiding the issue, just don't see how this senario is possible, but to answer your question if I realise that the person behind is in distress I would not add to it.

I would however see what other options are possible to help our rather stressed out fellow passenger - I have a mean left hook http://smilecwm.tripod.com/net5/bongsmi.gif

[lalapanzi]

SLF
obviously couldn't come up with an answer.

Here's another senario for you to ponder.

Pax in front of you is stressed to breaking. Reclines his seat into your meal. Do you ask him to place the seat upright? ;)

[justapax]

This thread certainly seems to have hit a nerve. Possibly the one which conveys a sensation of pain from the skin immediately in front of the knee.

I understand from some of the Professional Pilots (as distinct from us Permanent Pax) that this forum is read by the airlines and given serious consideration when considering passengers' needs and desires. Keep it coming, chaps and chapesses!

As most airlines' response to anything without an immediate effect on the bottom line brings to mind the expression 'vaster than empires and more slow', and given the lengthy period of time before SLF's class action on vertical claustrophobia nets him a cool million, I will shortly be marketing the justapax (registered trademark) anti-recline mechanism. As described in another thread, this consists of a leg of a photographer's tripod, (available for a few pence, broken or otherwise inadequate for the design purpose, from a car boot sale near you). About 30 cm long or less in your hand-baggage, this when extended and fitted between the armrest of your seat and the back of the seat in front, prevents the 3-year-old in front of you from reclining his, her or its seat in your face.

The other anti-air-rage precaution I carry with me is earplugs. These two accessories do not fix every airborne nightmare situation, but they help alleviate the two worst.

Let me take this opportunity to bark again about my perennial gripe, namely the reluctance to use ground services to air-condition aircraft before the jets spool up (and often long after). A safety card to fan the face is *not* an adequate substitute. An honourable mention goes to Loftleidhir, who on a hot, muggy day recently had the cabin cool and crisp as the wind off a glacier even as we were boarding.

Enjoy your flight....

[whisperer]

leg room, whats that..
as one of the `longer` folks out there, well over 6 foot of me, i know what you all mean about the goon in front, I have developed my own methods to prevent this...I lock the seat in front with my knees, they usually get the hint....

On the same subject, what about the gits who insist on filling the space under the seat with assorted junk that belongs in the hold or overhead bins..they only manage to take away your already limited leg room :)

[ExSimGuy]

They should be filling the space for their own leg-room with their junk - not yours!

and the reason is that the overheads are already filled to bursting with two jumbo-sized suitcases, a bag from the duty-free shop, fold-up trolleys (because the jumbo suitcases are too heavy to carry onto the ship) and a bag of "essential items for carry-on"

Why can't the crew confiscate excess carry-on at the ramp, have it stowed in the hold, and tag it "deliver last to baggage belt". Then we may see pax being sensible about what they struggle down the aisle carrying! :mad: :mad:

------------------
Through hardship to the bars

[TinnedSardine]

I've been the person in front of the tall guy whose knees were jammed into the small of my back (without reclining my seat). The guy in front of me reclined his seat, and there was someone next to me who was about seven foot and double wide, half hanging over onto my seat. I feel sorry for tall people with no room, but having someone's knees jammed into the small of my back like two hard boulders is PAINFUL! This on a transatlantic flight to the US West Coast. This particular flight was one of the most unbearable I've ever had to endure. I spent a lot of the flight standing near the toilets. It was just too painful to sit in my seat. I still shudder to think of that particular flight (although elements of it have occured on others). It has put me off of flying that particular airline, although I suppose any of them in steerage class has the potential to be as bad.

[ozy_rotorhead]

Lalapanzi
I hope you sit in front of me one day and try to recline your seat. At 6'3" tall my knees hit the seat in front and it is impossible to recline the seat in front of me. Occaisionally people try and I politely explain the problem to them and they usually cooperate. Rarely, but it does happen, they don't care and push their seat back as hard as possible, which is very uncomfortable to me. I usually ask politely again and if that doesnt work, i start kicking and tapping their seat every five seconds until they get the idea.

[lalapanzi]

ozy - now now there's no need to take that line. Just because you're vertically challenged and need additional o2 doesn't give you the right to inflict this on your fellow travellers. http://smilecwm.tripod.com/ruinkai/FLIPA.gif

It is unlikely our paths will cross, but in the event they do - you are welcome to try http://smilecwm.tripod.com/legionxs/crucified.gif

[Self Loading Freight]

Lalapanzi--

Sorry for not replying earlier, but contemplating this thread caused me to lose the will to live.

Anyway. Now we know that you will, under some circumstances, take into account the feelings of your fellow passengers, the question is how much? Looking at your later replies, where (unless I'm mistaken) you imply that you'd use violence if it pleased you, I guess not very. Although I guess that if you do act in such a way, your future travel options will be very much restricted.

You ask if I'd ask the person in front of me to put their seat upright... the answer to that depends on who that person is and what the circumstances are. It's all to do with having a thoughtful and aware attitude to one's surroundings, which is especially important in the very crowded environment at the back of the a/c. If the person in front was behaving as you behave on here, I doubt I would -- unless it was a member of my family that was suffering as a result, in which case I definitely would. But I'd be nice about it. Works better, especially if it escalates.

How about you? You're at the back of the bus, in a seat that can't recline. The person in front shoves back. What do you do?

R

[lalapanzi]

SLF

I can understand your point of view. Sorry to say I have not taken any of this seriously enough - hence the replies. http://smilecwm.tripod.com/net7/beerchug.gif

I do find it annoying to be wearing the seat in front, and feel it is about time airlines considered those that pay for them to be in business in the first place.

If the travelling public demonstrated their feelings by having a 'non-travelling in cattle class day'and boycotted the airlines - do you think they would get the message?
http://smilecwm.tripod.com/net6/nono.gif

[simitra]

I've read this debate with great interest and agree with many of the arguments put forward by SLF. I often travel with a disabled relative and this problem has arisen, such that she is caused distress. I do not hesitate to explain the problem to the offending pax, and ask him/her to keep their seat in upright position as they are causing distress to a disabled person. So far they have always done so. However, I would not hesitate to enlist help of cabin crew if necessary. Naming and shaming is a very powerful weapon.

[TinnedSardine]

In my experience, I haven't asked the person in front to put their seat up, even when they were causing me distress. It makes me very uncomfortable to have to confront/approach a stranger/fellow pax like that, especially if it's someone who seems to be so clueless as to put their seat all the way back the very second the seatbelt sign goes off, ten minutes into a ten hour flight. I have had the flight attendant ask on my behalf--at mealtimes when there was no room to put my tray down so that I could eat. On the last occasion when this happened, the kindly helpful fellow traveller in front put his chair up about an inch, and this after the flight attendant asked him to put his seat up because there was no room for my food. I was feeling in deep distress, and feeling claustrophobic, and had to have my meal with his greasy hair in my face. If he wouldn't put the seat up even after being politely asked by the flight crew, why would such a person listen to me? It is very unnerving to have to approach a stranger on a plane who is doing something that is driving you crazy. I have found that asking someone to stop doing something awful on a plane, no matter how politely and respectfully the request is phrased, usually results in the other person becoming defensive and nasty and determined not to be nice about it.

[Self Loading Freight]

Lalapanzi--

I'm not sure that a boycott would work: when and where one flies is normally a decision that involves factors outside one's immediate control.

It may be worth trying to find out if there are any health and safety regulations that might be applied -- what is the minimum volume that the carriers are required by law to provide? There are also fears that lack of legroom may lead to thrombosis, so perhaps that might be an area to investigate.

In the end, only legislation will force the carriers to do better, and that normally follows either a major incident, undeniable research or a large and prolonged campaign.

R

[lalapanzi]

SLF

As much as it would be nice to see something done, the Bureaucrats in BRU are more concerned with the shape of banana's. http://smilecwm.tripod.com/dvv/cwmjitter.gif

They tried it with 'dump the pump', the French seem to have more success with the way they are forcing the Government to lower fuel prices. http://smilecwm.tripod.com/monsieurboo/francais.gif

So how about the travelling public go for something like 'incline the recline' day?
No-one travelling reclines their seat for that day and see what a difference it makes. :)

[simitra]

Tinnedsardine-

The pax in front may be insensitive but he is not psychic. If you suffer in silence and say nothing then you are denying him the right/duty to take responsibility for his own behaviour. Do assertiveness training and you will learn a set of techniques for approaching people (including strangers) and stating your own needs in a positive way. Perhaps there is a gender aspect to this because I am female. Therefore a polite but assertive 'request' will come across as less threatening to that fragile neandrathal ego than if the same were uttered by a man. There are ways of putting moral pressure upon people such that you make it very difficult for them to refuse and not lose face.

[justapax]

Asking another pax to put his/her seat forward *is* difficult. People are often hostile - when packed in so tightly next to strangers, people's need for some privacy seems to expand. Therefore, however politely expressed a request might be, normally even the act of looking in someone's direction and talking to them produces an aggressive reaction. Of couse there are honourable exceptions, thankfully many of them.

This is especially the case when the recline-perpetrator is female, (or the recline-perpetrator is a child and you are addressing yourself to its mother). A male stranger is perceived as a threat (if you don't smile) or cheesy (if you do).

Unless the recline-perpetrator has spoken, you don't know what language he or she speaks, if any. Perhaps they just grunt. If you don't have a language in common, it's going to be difficult to get your message across. The effort is likely to increase hostility, and when you summon the help of cabin crew (if they have any better language skills than you) the atmosphere is already heated.

So, let's not make this conditional on pax's linguistic skills, gender, size, and persuasiveness. Just lock the blóody seats upright. There's plenty of built-in recline in this position already.

[Gazeem]

From the discussion it is clear,

that unless you are playing Devil's advocate,

that putting your seat back into the reclined position is

unfair

unkind

and probably some kind of arrogant 'it's my right' demonstation by the small mind in front

next time I fly I will make that scene

AIRLINES TAKE NOTE http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/tongue.gif

airlines stop the small minded

[teeteringhead]

It's more than a little sad to hear all this talk of "rights".

It was a few years ago that I was at school, but was always taught (and I hope I usually remember) that "rights" go hand-in-hand with "responsibilities", in this case to the comfort of your co-travellers.

If you don't accept the "responsibilities", then you shouldn't insist on the "rights".

------------------
tee-head

[121decimal5]

Well what about the midgets (and small children) that occupy the emergency exit seats while those of use over 6' have to make do with our feat trapped under the seat in front.

I'm 6'5" and I've only once sat in an emergency exit seat (Ta very much Emirates).

Who takes these seats, even if you phone before hand to book them there always taken!!

Even worse are the check in staff that don't know about the aircraft and put you in the centre aisle of the Emergency exit row that is *right* infront of the toilet block with *less* leg-room ***and*** people think it's alright to walk on you to get to the other side of the a/c, then the toilet leaks everywhere! (Mentioning no names, but I was flying to Islamabad on a non British carrier!!)

I'm not bitter! :)

If the seats didn't recline a bit then I really wouldn't be able to sit in them!


[This message has been edited by 121decimal5 (edited 08 September 2000).]

[The Guvnor]

It's a major no-no for kids to be sat in any exit row (includes all rows where there are main doors as well as emergency exits - centre section on widebodies excluded, btw - endangers the lives of those on board and is covered under bothe JAA and FAA rules. If you see something like that, you should IMMEDIATELY complain to cabin crew and demand that they be moved. If they refuse, take their name and report them to their airline and aviation authority.

Primary reason for this? Parents are more likely to be concerned about their kids than getting exit open for other pax. Logical, really. Pax sitting in exit rows are required to be over 16, fit, healthy, able to read and hear instructions, and have no dependents.

------------------
:) Happiness is a warm L1011 :)

[121decimal5]

Cheers Guvnor,
But how do these kids get booked into them in the first place??? Surely the check-in staff know they aren't allowed there?

[bigseat]

I've been watching this one evolve recently, and have to agree with those who suffer at the hands of those 'asserting their right to recline'. 121decimal5 has my genuine symapthy and support.

The CAA in conjunction with some eurocrats is at present re-evaluating the minimum seat pitch/width requirements, in light of the fact that people on average are much taller than they were when said limits were introduced. The re-evaluation, I undertand, is looking only from a safety perspective, and not from a comfort viewpoint.

However, there is a very real health threat that is well established medically, that being the risk of deep vein thrombosis. This can develop (and has) when passengers sit with legs pinned stationary for many hours in economy. This is medical fact. The result may be that you feel unwell after 12-24 hours, and can die (blood clots move to lungs etc.. It does not happen often, but I do think this needs considered by CAA et.al.

The Airlines know that passengers despise the lack of room in economy, but where they must compete on price, and their is no regulatory limit (current CAA pitch minimum is 26" I think) then leg room is a casualty.

Their is light on the horizon, at present American Airlines are reversing the trend and changing their aircraft so that coach class (economy) has more legroom. I dont know of any others, but lets keep hoping that someone else will see the light.

If you knowingly recline your seat to someone elses discomfort then you should be asked to leave (at 34,000 feet)!

[simitra]

Teeter -

I agree to a point. I was brought up to give up my seat on public transport/help people less able than myself, etc. And I frequently still do. So what are my 'responsibilities' towards someone who is causing me or the person I am travelling with, physical and mental distress? I also have responsibilities to myself and the people I travel with, and would despise myself if I just put up and shut up.

I agree with SLF about the seats but that is going to be a long time coming. In the meantime ....?

[TinnedSardine]

Simitra--I have in the past asked people, as kindly as possible, to stop doing things on board planes that were driving me crazy...and was met with utter and complete hostility, and an intensification of the problem behavior. I have found that people on planes are often like animals crowded too intensively in cages--they are desperately protective of what little space they have, and often are very defensive of whatever it is they are doing. Let's face it, a long flight in economy is miserably uncomfortable, and nobody likes being told to stop doing something that they view as an activity that is increasing their pathetic "comfort" level. On a long-term level, I fervently hope that change is forced to come about, maybe somehow through the health and safety angle. It's amazing more people don't suffer serious adverse health affects from being pinned immobile into their seats for hours. Not to mention the emergency evacuation implications of being jammed into your seat, unable to move, pinned against the wall...

[Next Generation PSR]

As a Purser for a charter airline, I do agree that reclining seats, along with that other emotive subject - smoking - is the cause of much consternation and altercation amongst customers on board.

However lets be sensible about this and be objective.

1) Although a recline button is there and allows people to have a 'little' more comfort, can you imagine for example being forced to sit litterally bolt upright for as much as 11-26 hours i.e LGW-MCO, LGW-CUN or worst example LGW-BAH-SIN-SYD. I'm sure there would still be whingers over that one.
"I was forced to sit for 24 hrs unable to recline my seat" (Yes I know some seats are fixed at bulkheads and exits).

2) The facility and does actually allow for a little relief in the lower back, I know what I'm talking about I'm 6'2.

3) So much of the niggly things on board with tact and diplomacy can help, some people cause problems for themselves.
If the person in front does not comply with a polite request to bring their seat upright during a meal service, then ask the cabin crew in the galley area away from the offending customer to mediate. Don't start a scene in the cabin, you'll lose sympathy from everyone. That's what we're there for, to solve your problems. Ask straight away if there are spare seats available, we know which ones are. Grab them straight after take off, but ask the cabin crew.

4) You have got a mouth, use it. Don't suffer in silence, the guy in front is not telepathic. Say something like 'Can you do me a big favour just while I'm eating, could you please bring your seatback upright, then put it back afterwards' - I did this recently and met no problems.

5) The recline button is in everyone's seat,
It's there to provide you with a bit more comfort, no matter how little. I always say to people "why don't you put yours back too,
that's what it's there for" However during a meal service unless someone is spark out asleep I insist they bring their seat upright.

6)Don't bring too much hand luggage that you need to put under the seat infront, stow items in the overhead if suitable. Being able to stretch legs under seats, alleviates the knees in back of seat in front syndrome.
Albeit to a lesser degree on charters.

7) And at all times be polite and don't antagonise the situation by blatantly pushing a reclined seat and it's occupant forwards, no matter how tempting. It could make for many tense hours.

The only situation I encountered recently was where the upper deck of a B747-200 I was on, only had narrow side compartments below windows and no lockers and this caused many problems with comfort with everyone of the 30 "in the lump" having to juggle with bags, jackets, blankets and pillows. I think some people with big coats and big hand bagage may have opted for main deck if they had known.

Finally get to know the aircraft you are flying on, ask for seatplans, check in early, and if you find a seat which you like ask for it or one similar.

I found BA ground/cabin crew suprisingly helpful on the days I flew with them recently.

[I'd rather]

Rather depressed that so many people don't have the innate courtesy and consideration not to recline their chairs when the meal is served.

Last week on an overnight transatlantic flight, the woman in front my other half had her seat reclined right from the beginning - affected not to hear our request to put it up for the meal, but did so when asked by the FA. In my experience very few people refuse to put their seat up if the FA asks them.

Which suggests a possible solution: how aboout an announcement at the end of the safety demonstration requesting passengers not to recline their seats until after the meal service is complete? I think most people would comply, and it would send out a message that it's socially unacceptable to recline your seat when the poor sod behind you is trying to eat.

I'm not in favour of a ban altogether - was happy to recline my seat later in the flight to try and get some sleep - though I checked the person behind me was asleep (and also reclined) before doing so. That said, it was on a elderly L1011, so quite roomy - some of the charter planes nowadays are so cramped I'm not sure it's feasible.

Any cabin crew out there who would care to share their views? It must be an issue for you too, as you have to sort out the disputes between passengers.

[SLF]

This year I’ve noticed BA asking passengers (individually) to put their seatbacks upright as the grub is served. Seems sensible to me, and most pax get the idea when they overhear someone else being asked.

I’ve perfected using my toes to push the pax in front’s shoes back out – why do they think they can store then under their seat?

Personally, I recline when the bloke in front does.

Have to agree on shorthaul – no need to have reclining seats at all

Went to LHR-JFK horizontally in June (upgrade!), now THAT’s the way to fly!

(Sorry about the name, Self L...)


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29A please!

[deepee]

Upgrade or ask for Bulkhead,if unsuccessful book on the following flight ,hit the bar and lubricate all limbs well.

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"I don't suffer from stress.I'm a carrier".

[Goldie]

I will tolerate the seat back to an extent, what really gives me the sh*ts are the pigs that belch & fart during meal service.

Put these and those who take their shoes off and stink th eplane out in the hold with the other livestock

[ANOpax]

Er, Goldie

It's well known that your feet swell in flight and I for one always remove my shoes on long haul. As for the noxious smells, that's what the over-socks are for. If you're unfortunate enough to be in economy (no over-socks), you'll find that the dessicating atmosphere will quickly dry out any malodourous footwear, rendering it inoffensive.