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sea oxen
1st Mar 2010, 13:28
I have just been advised by Mrs SO that she was admonished by a steward on a long-haul evening Qantas flight that her request for two wee (6 oz) bottles of wine represented 'irresponsible drinking'. Mrs SO had asked for two as she was travelling in Z class and did not know whether a refill would be forthcoming.

After ten years together, I've a fair idea of her character. She's educated, demure and quiet - not what you'd call a party girl. That's one of the reasons that I love her. It would come as an immense shock to learn that Mrs SO was inebriated - this is a girl who buys ludicrously expensive half-bottles of wine because "that's all I want".

It is perfectly reasonable for cabin crew to moderate the alcohol consumption of their passengers. I'm sure I'm not alone having had the company of noisy, raucous drunks on a flight, and wishing them dead. The CC's job must be onerous when they need to do this; arguing with drunks is seldom pleasant. At least at the pub you can take them into the car park and give them a good shoeing.

What I do object to is the public humiliation to which Mrs SO was subjected; this ticking-off was done in such a way that everyone in her vicinity heard every word and knew that she was the culprit. She cried for the rest of the flight.

As you can appreciate, I am emotionally entangled here, so does anyone think that this is worth a letter of complaint or should sleeping dogs be left to lie? I reiterate; Mrs SO is not some oafish sot. She's just a late-thirties lady who felt like a second glass of wine when the opportunity was there.

SO
(and in case you think "while the cat's away" - no.)

Avman
1st Mar 2010, 14:36
I recently travelled QF in Business Class. I lost count how many times they tried to refill my glass! Double standards or just a job's worth CC?

I would most definitely register a complaint. However, unless she had a witness or witnesses it will be her word against his and you will most probably not receive a satisfactory closure. But I personally would still register the complaint just for the record. Be sure to include flight and seat details. You never know, perhaps there have been other complaints made about that particular CC.

My own experience with QF was a good one. All airlines have the odd bad apple unfortunately.

radeng
1st Mar 2010, 15:45
There was me with a nasty cynical mind figuring that the airlines were trying to economise even further by being mean with drinks as well as everything else!

Two-Tone-Blue
1st Mar 2010, 16:38
i understand the dilemma ... i often wonder whether to ask for two bottles to save the CC extra leg-work getting me a refill, and whether that then makes me look like a drunkard. The pre-dinner glass of wine often means that there's none left when the meal arrives, and the last thing I want to do i ask for another bottle in the middle of meal service.

As Avman noted, sometimes they can't stop offering refills on some carriers. I used to have to stop MaxJet trying to get me unfit to drive on arrival!! ;)

fincastle84
1st Mar 2010, 16:48
Sounds like you've been stuffed by a TT antipodean. He/she must be the only one in the world. Your wife was just very unlucky.

TD15
1st Mar 2010, 17:02
It depends what you want to receive from your complaint... If you would just like an apology then complain. But the apology will not come from that particular crew member but from a standardised letter from someone in customer services. Is that really then an apology? Crew are advised to be cautious with the amount of alcohol given, and maybe the crewmember in question had a bad incident and is more cautious than most.. So many reasons but no it doesnt justify embarrasment of a customer.. the best way to deal with it.. fly with another airline!

Capetonian
1st Mar 2010, 17:04
Sounds like you've been stuffed by a TT antipodean

The steward has every right to be a teetotaller, in fact it's probably a good attribute. He has no right whatsoever to attempt to impose his teetotallism (sp?) on a passenger. Otherwise perhaps he should go and work for Saudia Arabian, Royal Brunei, or some other dry airline. Aussie .... teetotal .... hello!!!

Scumbag O'Riley
1st Mar 2010, 17:14
One hates to be a party pooper, but two wee (6 oz) bottles of winecontain in excess of the current recommended daily alcohol intake for a female. Now I would be happy to take this advice from my GP/Practice Nurse in the privacy of a surgery, not sure from a flight attendent in a economy class cabin where they fit as many people per square metre as possible.

But anyway.

Times have changed from the qantas I used to know and love. On flights full of lads on trips down under to watch the cricket the trolleys would have been drained of all booze by the time we left European airspace. The only way the cabin crew could keep any control was to crack open the duty free stores and come round with the litre bottles of gin and free pour. Don't remember any trouble on board, but then I wouldn't, would I ?

sea oxen
1st Mar 2010, 19:47
Scumbag O'Riley

Quite. Mrs SO has an honours degree in Science and is a nurse to boot. I don't think that a lecture on the dangers of drink was necessary. She abstained completely for forty days, beginning Jan 1, something I could never do. I am at a loss to understand why she requires assistance in understanding her alcohol intake from some parvenu.

TD15
You're right. I do not want a complimentary flight or some sort of freebie. Mrs SO, for reasons of her own, chose to travel in Z. As Avman points out, the experience can be different when you get towards the sharp end of the aircraft, and about six months ago, I was lauding QF PE in this forum. A cut above.

Right now, I would like five minutes alone in a cage with the person who made Mrs SO cry. I suspect that Qantas won't go along with that.

Thank you for your supportive messages. I shall write a letter of grievance once my sunshine is back.

I sympathise with the cabin staff who deal with unruly drunkards. This is at best unpleasant and at worst extremely dangerous.

SO

parabellum
1st Mar 2010, 20:56
When you write your letter, (as you must), address it to the MD by name and register it to the company HQ, other wise it will just be directed to a minion in Customer Services.

ulxima
1st Mar 2010, 22:04
address it to the MD by name and register it to the company HQ


I wish I were Qantas MD ..... and received this letter :E

PAXboy
1st Mar 2010, 22:31
It seems, SO, that you know the routine of a good complaint:
Write it whilst the blood is hot (makes you feel better!) then put it away for a week.
Meanwhile, check the facts with Mrs SO and research the airline website. This has two purposes, firstly to get the right name and address. Secondly, to cull from it any statements about customer service that you can legitimately ask about. Check this page I found About Qantas - Our Company - Qantas Centre of Service Excellence (http://www.qantas.com.au/travel/airlines/excellence/global/en)So it appears they are making an effort and you can lament the one case that failed. But (I hear you say!) each case is special and a fully trained nurse is likely to know her own mind.
Then re-write the letter so that it is cool, polite and factual.
Cast no insults just ask "Why do you think this member of staff spoke to Mrs SO in this way - in front of all the other passengers?"
Do not ask for any compensation - if they fail you can demand that later! Simply ask for an explanation.
If you and Mrs SO have ever travelled with them before in any cabin, try to find positive statements about that. If you have travelled in the premium cabins and had the opposite kind of service, as others here have stated, then detail it.If this is teaching my grandfather how to $û¢k èççs (attempt at humour) then please ignore. :8

frequentflyer2
1st Mar 2010, 22:47
This is just another example of how some of those employed in today's aviation industry seem to believe they have a god given right to humiliate fare paying passengers at every opportunity.
As I explained on this forum last September two members of ground staff at BFS really took the shine off a short break to Amsterdam for Mrs. FF and me.
One, at check-in spoke to me as if I was some kind of wayward primary school pupil. The other, at the gate, employed truly nasty sarcasm.
I wrote a detailed letter to Airport MD Mr. John Doran outlining exactly what happened. Six months later I've yet to receive even a reply.
I fully support the rights of those working in the airline industry not be subjected to abuse from the travelling public.
Unfortunately, a few of these people seem to believe this gives them the right to treat passengers like dirt.

tezzer
2nd Mar 2010, 07:14
Scandalous behaviour, but I wish the Thai CC in first when Mrs Tezzer and I came back from Bangkok a couple of years ago had cut off my supply of the JW Blue label before I got to LHR. It would have saved me from my free-fall down the escalator at Kings Cross underground station !

sea oxen
2nd Mar 2010, 08:31
Thank you again for all for your advice (which I'll take), and I'll single out PAXBoy for evidently dedicating considerable time and thought to his posting.

I will cool my heels for a few days, and I will subtly discover from Mrs SO whether she had been drinking beforehand. She'd have been in the air for almost twenty hours. She was dry when I took her to LHR, I presume she had wine with supper, slept fitfully before breakfast, lunch and refuelling (the aircraft, not her :) ) in SIN. She is too stingy to drink in the airport (I have access to the J lounge but was stuck here), so she must have dried up for the final flight.

It would have been wholly out of character for Mrs SO to be legless, but before taking any action, I'll get it from the horse's mouth, so to speak. I do not want to falsely accuse someone of a transgression. If I proceed or not, I'll let you know the outcome. I've been a Qantas Club member for many years so that might give me some leverage.

For the record: QF treated me extremely well in J when I used to travel around SEA, frequently letting me onto the FD during the exciting bits. More recently, their PE LHR-SYD was exceptionally good, and I intend to take that service again this year.

frequentflyer2
That sucks. These 'values' that are 'enshrined' are what used to pass as common courtesy. O tempora, o mores! Have you tried writing again?

SO

The late XV105
2nd Mar 2010, 09:09
BA long haul flight in WT+.

Asked for a single bottle of the Merlot to go with my beef.
Was proffered two along with a smile and "we've a lot more serving in front of us so it'll be a long time before we come round again".

TVM :ok:

Two-Tone-Blue
2nd Mar 2010, 10:25
@ XV105 ... that's frequently been my experience as well. Not so easy for the CC when they're refilling your glass from a proper bottle, though ;)

parabellum
2nd Mar 2010, 19:47
Was proffered two along with a smile


Exactly what happened to my wife on QANTAS, SIN-MEL, so what happened to Mrs. Sea Oxen would not appear to be company policy.

It is a shame Mrs SO didn't listen to his tirade and then ask him for his views on Birth Control!

sea oxen
2nd Mar 2010, 21:03
XV105

Indeed, although I found WT+ far inferior to QF PE. These people did make you feel special. Let's keep it our little secret, though.

parabellum

I think the crux here is whether the CC had the right to address Mrs SO in that fashion. I could understand this if she was some of bogan, but she's not. I understand that cabin staff must deal with a wide variety of people, and I do not envy their position.

Mrs SO is meek, except when I am at the receiving end, I've only got 11" and 70lbs over her! :E

SO

lowcostdolly
3rd Mar 2010, 11:10
Seaoxen As CC who is regularly encouraged by my company to sell two bottles of wine instead of one and offer double measures on spirits I will add my two cents here.

It would be interesting to know if the CC gave/sold Mrs SO one bottle of wine along with her lecture on the perils of drink?

You see if Mrs SO appeared intoxicated she should not have been given anything alcoholic by the CC.....end of.

If she didn't then 2 bottles of wine IMHO is a reasonable first request for drinks and should have been granted.

I think what Mrs SO was subjected to here (assuming she didn't look under the influence) was an over zealous newbie or an experienced jobsworth both of which need to brush up on their pax handling skills.

No representative of any airline has the right to make a pax feel so humliated they cry.

Write to Qantas.......I don't think they would be very happy re the actions of their front line representatives here.

Pontius Navigator
3rd Mar 2010, 13:14
LCD, first still waiting for a response from your company :)

Secondly, flying a superSLF on a charter we were amazed to witness the amount of free booze being delivered. A rather frightful 'champagne' before take-off (they said it was champagne but it was frightfully red) and then the CC continued to dispense on an individual basis, except for the pax in row 1. They just gave them a couple of bottles, one gin, one rose, and both emptied on the 9 hour flight between the 3 of them.

All Ahead Full
3rd Mar 2010, 15:06
Just to add my thoughts this does sound slightly ridiculous, but having travelled in all cabins, it is certainly true, that on the long haul flights, at the pointy end they will happily re-fill your glass as long as you let them really.

Never had a problem at the back, but often need to go back to the Gallery to ask for more, to stop pressing the old call bell, and also good for stretching the legs when 'at the back'

My view is as long as your not drinking too excess, it's a good aid to sleep and does help pass the time... :O

lowcostdolly
3rd Mar 2010, 15:58
All Ahead Full I'm so going to have to forget I'm CC when I come into this forum. "Pointy end" to me means the flight deck and when I read your post on refills at the pointy end it was initially :eek::eek::eek:!!!

Then I realised that pointy end to you is 1st or premium......phew :D:D

As someone who enjoys my wine when paxing I totally agree with you. It's OK in moderation. I think the way Mrs Seaoxen was treated totally inappropriate.......as long as she wasn't tiddly when placing her order.

Even then there are more sensitive ways of handling the situation. There is a difference between handling a lady who may have had a little too much (I'm not saying that was the case here) than clamping down on the rowdy lads/gals on the night Ibiza. A different approach is required but in both cases it should always be professional and not involve humiliation.

PN Given that your complaint involved safety concerns I think it unlikely that you would have a response to these by now to these as they would need to be investigated.

I would have thourght though you should have had acknowledgement from one of our "Customer Services Champions" (:ugh:) at least, especially as the complaint also involved servisair.......EZY's representatives at Paphos Airport.

If that is not the case please PM me and I can give you our CEO's email address free of charge as we are pals now ;) Don't tell him LCD gave it though as otherwise :uhoh:

He always responds to emails personally. At least that is my experience :ok:

Two-Tone-Blue
3rd Mar 2010, 17:21
@ LCD ... I don't envy you the challenges of measuring and judging who has had too much. It's such a subjective area to to deal with. It is true that on 'certain sectors' you have to deal with pax who start the holiday at check-in. What that does to safety factors is scary, to say the least.

All Ahead Full
4th Mar 2010, 06:14
LCD, sorry for the confusion there, that would indeed be interesting if the people steering the ship were having their glasses refilled.

Saying that the only time I've been to the pointy end in the true sense of the word, was about 12 years ago coming back from Bangkok, where I was invited to the flight deck, expecting to see a hive of activity.

Imagine my surprise that when the door was opened to the flight deck, I was greeted with a big cloud of smoke, to find all the flight crew happily playing cards, with not one of them enjoying the fantastic view.

AAF

lowcostdolly
6th Mar 2010, 10:41
TTB it can be a bit of a nightmare sometimes but dealing with it comes with experience. I have zero tolerance to drunks on a flight.

The sectors where the party has started at check in (and often before) are often the easiest to deal with from my point of view. Certain flights have this pax profile and we know what to look out for on boarding and what to ask the gate agent. Their return journey to LGW often starts at this point with or without Police involvement.

In flight we also know what to look out for. A gang of lads ordering 10 coke's is very :suspect: as they are probably adding their own spirits......they think we are stupid when they deny this :rolleyes:

I would never sell, or allow my crew to sell, two at a time of anything on these flights despite the company incentives. I am responsible for, and report to the Captain directly, re safety in the cabin. However somebody like Mrs Seaoxen having 2 bottles of wine should not be an issue IMHO.

I know there are some pax who have posted in this forum that safety is not the number one priority for airlines. I can honestly say that for the front line crew it always is. I don't do drunks for safety reasons. The Captain's have always supported any offloads I have done and so have my company.

AAF I've yet to see a "hive of activity" in the flight deck in all my years of flying :oh: Sorry Pilots!! In a sunny cruise it reclining seats, sun shades down, on tap meals/drinks and newspapers scrounged on turnaround from the CC.....all the time quietly monitoring the aircraft and ATC.

I've also been on flights where things have moved up several notches due to a technical problem or otherwise. Even then focused professionalism at all times by the Guys whatever might be happening.

On your Bangkok flight all was well as long as the cloud of smoke wasn't from the wacky baccy that went with their refills ;)

bunkrest
6th Mar 2010, 16:39
I'm sorry that your wife had to endure that kind of ticking off. From my own experience a little common sense goes a long way. A friendly, sober lady asking for 2 bottles is very diferent from a roudy stag party asking for 2.

To be on the safe side I always made a mental note of who had asked for 2 and would not serve a third if they polished them off in the first 20 minutes and were up for thirds and fourths. I cetainly wouldn't be reading the riot act to a sober passenger and embarrasing them infront of the entire economy section!

Intrestingly I had the passenger perspective on overzealous Qantas cc who gave me the third degree on use of the overwing exit when I was on a trip from Singapore...I respect thoroughness but this woman had a manic glint in her eye as she asked me SEP intensity questions regarding when/where/how/when not to use the thing....she seemed very crestfallen when I rattled off the answers....Having said that I do like Qantas and I'm sure, like your experience, it was a rogue bad apple.

radeng
6th Mar 2010, 18:16
The only time I've seen people off loaded is when they were genuinely ill - as I was when it happened to me.

ampclamp
7th Mar 2010, 09:48
Let that one go through to the keeper...

I've only got 11" and 70lbs over her!

Oxen indeed.:cool:

PAXboy
7th Mar 2010, 13:44
ampclamp, that thought had indeed gone through my mind :ooh: But, has he always been an Ox or does he have children? :E

OK.OK. it's Sunday afternoon, I'll go and put the kettle on...

IJM
7th Mar 2010, 23:58
In contrast to Mrs Sea Oxen on Qantas, Horizon Air were very generous to me on a short flight Portland (Oregon) to Seattle recently.

The CC had opened a largish bottle of microbrewery ale (bottle about 3/4 size of a typical wine bottle?) to serve to passengers, but there had not been many takers. As they came round a second time they offered me the rest of the bottle, as there were not many others sampling this particular brew. I ended up getting easily at least 3/4 of a large bottle of a fine Portland brew - many thanks Horizon! :ok:

I must have come across as a fairly sensible individual though, as that amount of a fairly strong beer would probably have an effect on someone who was already tipsy.

It appears that Qantas were rough on Mrs SO though, I hope they can acknowledge that they handled it badly.

flyergirl
8th Mar 2010, 03:19
Just to clarify, from the ops manual, the responsible service of alcohol policy states that multiples of drinks are not to be served. HOWEVER, common sense would dictate as has already been stated, that you would use your JUDGEMENT in a case like Mrs SO. Unfortunately, some CC lack this, but if they thought there was an issue they should have gone to their supervisor.

That aside, no one should be publicly humilitated and subtlety is the key.I am sorry for her bad experience.

BTW regarding the exit row briefing, sounds perfect to me. I would however be very HAPPY that all the answers were known, and think of that person should an emergency arise....

BEagle
8th Mar 2010, 08:06
A story told to me by an Oz chum years ago still makes me chuckle:

Chum was travelling somewhere by QANTAS. A large, amiable Ozmate was sitting across the aisle looking rather annoyed at being ignored by a couple of, errm, 'nice' stewards who were nattering with eachother in the front galley. Eventually he got fed up and pressed the call button several times, before calling out "Oi, Flossie! Would you and your bloody girlfriend stop bloody yakking and bring me a bloody beer. Now!!" The rest of the passengers thought this was hilarious, but the puce-faced steward who flounced down the aisle clearly didn't....

Seriously, if someone treated Mrs SO in the way you describe, he deserves to be disciplined and Mrs SO should be given some compensation and a sincere apology.

sea oxen
9th Mar 2010, 18:51
Thanks are again in order, especially for LCD and Bunkrest.I found flyergirl's explanation of the policy very elucidating - and predictably, the policy is aimed at the lowest common denominator.

ampclamp
I could fold it in half...

Well, it seems that Mrs SO was not under the influence and it was her only tipple during the nine-hour flight. She explained that she was too embarrassed to request a second bottle later, when the second round with the drinks trolley took place. I received a bit of a kicking for even having enquired, as she's not touched anything since she arrived in Australia, ten days ago.

I have some writing to do, it seems. This 'Befehl ist Befehl' culture is a way of life now, isn't it?

Beagle
If you want a demonstration of an uncouth Australian yob making CC sob (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/australiaandthepacific/australia/5102496/Kevin-Rudd-made-flight-attendant-cry.html)! :mad:

SO

indamiddle
10th Mar 2010, 00:11
re alcohol service on qantas there are two types of crew. the first is the crew who have been flying 10 years or longer before the requirement to hold a 'responsible service of alcohol' certificate before applying for the job. training also emphasises the 'one drink at a time'. there are different ways of saying "no" to two drinks and a lecture is certainly a waste of everyones' time. crew who have been flying longer than 10 years mostly will provide an extra drink during the first service as, with the reduction in crew numbers, SLF can often be waiting for their first drink for more than an hour after take-off. however even the oldies are loath to give two drinks at a time further into the flight. with regard to the lecture your wife received, i apologise and hope that it is not repeated.
responsible service of alcohol gets discussed occasionally in the galley. some years ago a senior member of crew (30 years flying) was asked what he thought 'responsible service of alcohol' meant. his reply; "don't spill it on the passengers"!

bunkrest
15th Mar 2010, 11:55
flyergirl

I didn't want to infer that the exit briefing was wrong, infact I believe the quality of the questions were absolutely spot on (and far better than some of the ' this is the exit, these are the instructions off you go' variety I've come across on my travels...

It was just I recognised the world weary, final sector, last day, annoyance that was written across her face and blazed in her body language. I understood that she was probably exhausted and no doubt annoyed that umpteen previous pax had not taken her questions seriously,so, understandably, she just let the professionalism slip sligtly. (As I'm sure I have when sleep deprivation and jet lag shortens the fuse by a few metres!)


I just wanted to say that I was really very impressed with the quality and professionalism of the Qantas crews - and that level of questioning is absolutely correct - it was just how it was delivered by this one lady ... I hope I haven't offended anyone!:O