Question for all ye, pilots and controllers...

[P Poon]

Hi, i'm kinda new here, nice to talk to you all.
I am pretty puzzled these days as i've once heard a senior member of CAD (HK) saying, Quote"No offense here, but quite frankly ATC is mere simple 手作仔 (Allow my poor english here to translate it as handcraft for i couldn't find a better term to express it as my englich vocabulary is very limited as the conversation was done in cantonese.). No matter how good you perform, it is of no use." Unquote.
The thing is, if this senior member only said it to encourage us staff to enhance ourselves other than simply working ATC, i'm afraid that member had given it a wrong approach... If it is otherwise, i am speechless, i am afraid it would not do any good to all us controllers as the morale is not high already these days. It is indeed very discouraging. What do you guys reckon?
Back in a couple of years ago, the aforementioned personnel had a group gathering with the then junior staff, namely speaking, student ATCO and ATCO III, the whole gathering went well except the following conversation, Quote "Any of you being dog owners? Training an ATCO is like dog training, you give dogs treats and they do tricks...." Unquote

This is a very bad comparison, I have nothing against dog but is there a better way to talk to junior staff that would be carrying out OJT later on? Is that personnel trying to imply SOMETHING?

That's all now my folks, thanks for bearing my poorly, long-winded type-written post. I couldn't care less now since i am just a mere factory worker who couldn't think properly. As long as i am getting paid, i really dare not ask for anything more...

Wish you could throw some light upon the stubborn me!

Once again thanks for paying attention.

Love you all

P Poon

[Ex Cathedra]

Well, if I understand correctly, it seems CX's human resources management methods have rubbed off on the CAD. It would make sense, old couples always end up sharing bad habits.
Although they still have some way to go to be as subtly and insiduously cynical in their insulting methods as our dear leaders.

[yat.kin.fat.choy]

手作仔 = DIY = Hand-Wage-earners :E

[Cafe City]

Well, with the greatest of respect guys, you gotta start handling us better through Murry if you don't want to be referred to as basket weavers.

[Guava Tree]

Sorry Poon about your management.
Please believe me when I say that you ATC Guys and Girls are highly valued by us pilots. You stop us crashing into each other. That is the major thing. Our passengers benefit from this too!
If it is any consolation for you, our simulator instructor used to refer to us pilots as "Trained Monkeys".

[gweiloairline]

all mickey mouse play to me if a boy can be allowed to
direct ATC at JFK and pilots are amused by it

[On the beach]

Cafe City,

Hey, we used to be BAKER weavers. If you think MURRY is bad you should have seen the old arrivals thru BAKER from SIKOU and that other place, er, what was it called, er, SIERA with 200, er kms, or was it nms to touchdown? Either that or the SIERA "slam dunk" arrival, where the aircraft arrived minus the pax.

There's no pleasin' some folk.

On the beach :ok:

[Mooseflyer]

I'd prefer a good job, I enjoy good food, and most of all I'd like a good paycheck.
But if you try to pat me on the head I'll take your f### hand off!!!

[heartless]

Shorty who was a failed controller and through luck lick his way to what he is has always the habit of taking a cheap shot at the people who knew how useless he was. This has happen to different people at various times. For management to belittle the staff for no other than selfish ego hunting just when one feel like it reflects how pitiful the whole workplace has become when the leadership is so sadly lacking in integrity and professionalism. Mark my words, this will not be the last time and it will be more bitter the next time.

[mephisto88]

Well considering how little you seem to be appreciated by your own bosses in ATC, the same can not be said for the feeling of us pilots who call HK our home.
In general, we feel relieved to be back in HK airspace having done battle with either the American 'How good are we' controllers,
or the neurotic Indian 'if you dont do what I say I'm going to shout more' controllers,
to the Indonesian'do what you want and we dont care if you cant understand us' controllers,
to the Australian 'just confirm you are 1/2 mile right of track, and read it back verbatim' controllers.
So yes, we breath a sigh of relief when we get back into the FIR, so thanks for staying professional despite your less than appreciative management.

[Mountain Top]

Who is Shorty?

[heartless]

Shorty is the current headboy of the department who runs the cad with his inflated ego and who has no time for people who does not agree with him. His 'i am better than you' mentality is a sad reflection of his inferiority complex. Like many things in life, luck places a big part in putting him where he is - far more capable people migrating, opening up of new positions just when he was ready to walk into it. Now he uses every opportunity to pull rank on his peers and is never liked amongst controllers.

[throw a dyce]

I remember an episode that really summed some in upper management in CAD/ATMD.
Single rwy CLK,and a 747 departs blowing tyres and leaves bits of undercarrage all over the runway.The runway was closed to clear debris.Then it came back in,so same situation.Then they had to close it again for emergency repairs.So we had a hell of a backlog because it was now about midday.
I ended up in Tower co-ordinator,and luckily had a lot of experience with snow clearing,runway closures etc.I had everything sorted for re-opening in 15 minutes,when a local appeared in the Tower screaming,''Where's the Tower co-ordinator,bring them in, bring them in ''.All the other locals were hiding behind the desk.So I said are you looking for me.
''Bring them in '' he screamed.So I said if you bring them in,then they will just come straight back out the other side,because the runway is CLOSED for emergency repairs,and who the F:mad:k are you:and just stared him right out.It was the boss of ATMD who I had never met.:rolleyes:The was a long pause,and he said nothing,and just ran back down the stairs.One of my friends said he thought I was going to give him a Glasgow kiss.:ugh: I heard later that this was a favourite trick of his in Kai Tak,but no-one had ever answered back.However he never appeared in CLK tower again because of the biggg loss of face.
He became big boss of CAD,probably retired now on a vast fortune.

One of the celtic dogs had a bite back.:}:}

[gweiloairline]

you are one big trumpet blower

[mephisto88]

He may be blowing a trumpet - so what.
I'd rather have had someone like him organizing how to get the strip useable again, than some paper pusher who rarely appears except when its time to show how to really stuff things up.
Sometimes ya just gotta grab the bull by the horns:}
Nice work dyce :ok:

[Cafe City]

I wasn't complaining about the recent welcome change to the procedures, what I was commenting on was the haphazard handling we seem to be getting regularly. After almost 6 months I would have thought it would have been sorted by now. We can come in from sikou without a word from either of the first 2 frequencies we talk to only to be hit with some significant vectoring on approach control. Sometimes to the east for 20 miles and then almost back to where we started. How does that happen? Don't you have someone who has the overall picture and can start to slow us earlier? I mean, I understand we often may need a bit of a tweek here and there once we call approach, but to such a drastic degree?? It makes it very difficult to manage our proflile sometimes. Perhaps you can enlighten me. If we're given such long vectors should we reduce our descent rate or are you looking for us to keep coming down and put on more power to drag it in from low level?

[lepsep]

Cafe,
Agree with you. No, it should not happen but it boils down to this
1 A useless FLOW machine
2 inexperienced flow director
3 a lot of new rated locals,
4 supervisors with their head in the sand,not watching exactly what is really going on .
5 lot of BIG egos that side of the room.
6 extremely poor management.
So, put that all together or maybe only a couple of them and you get exactly what you are referring to. My advice.... complain ,call in and ask to speak to hopefully a sympathetic supervisor who is not afraid of losing face and may even apologise, but don't hold your breath. Good luck.

[MercuryRising]

CC, Your discussion obviously refers to RWY07 where we merge two inbound flows together south of LIMES.

APP's problem lies in the groundspeed differentials between traffic inbound through MURRY which usually has a higher groundspeed vs the other sequence inbound through GUAVA. Accordingly, there are ATCs that will make the MURRY traffic number first and will slow and bend the downwind traffic ten or twenty degrees left to fit in behind. The only problem with this is that it takes nerves of titanium as the number one guy turns over SILVA and conflicts with the downwind guy. The other option available is the one you're ( in my opinion, rightly ) complaining about. FYI, we need you to be about 4000' at LIMES, so yes please, dive and drive.

However, this is off topic: maybe the HKATCA should invite this manager, in terms he cannot refuse, to get an APP rating, I'm sure that will be interesting.

[lepsep]

Cafe... agree with you .
mercury... There is one simple answer to this DAILY occurrence- a flow controller who do his job .Unfortunately there are very few who can, so problem boils down to incompetence.SIMPLE.

[gweiloairline]

If you such an experienced ace as you say you are - get things "sorted out" in 15 min without having yourself to go out there with a brush and a broom, then
your boss is right to order you to "bring them in";

Coz it would take your AMAN flow to get those in the holding stacks "sorted out"
and started feeding to the inept lepsep to send them round in circuits 50nm wide

[lepsep]

gweilo.... Pity you such fool. First,throw.... not work in H.K. ,HE fired many years since. And Lepsep,I not flow controller.So both cannot fix problem.

[throw a dyce]

Gweilo,
Well last time I looked at the job description of Tower Co-ordinator,then I seemed to be doing that job.Sweeping the runway wasn't on it.Neither was filling the holes with tarmac.Anway the first inbound was on 10 mile final when the runway re-opened,so I lay down my trombone at that.:8

[QUERTY-bored]

Staff morale is very low in CAD these days. Many controllers have given up trying hard thinking it is pointless. Unlike a few years ago, there is no feeling of being in it together. Many controllers do an absolute minimum most of the time and their main objective is to stay clean and “get of there” a.s.a.p. Shame, but one must ask oneself: why is this?

Consider the following:
Our current head of department makes no attempt to hide his dislike of controllers. He once made the statement that “controllers are good for nothing other than vectoring airplanes.” He may not have intended this remark for a bigger forum but statements like that tend to travel like bush fire. Downgrading your own staff like that surely is not a clever thing to do and it is bound to demoralize controllers.
The irony is that he himself failed several times as a controller back in the Kai Tak days with one quarter of today’s traffic levels. He in fact only got his Tower rating in the end because he was destined for bigger things. Payback time, is it?

More than a year ago, CSB were doing a pay scale review and invited one of our 4 floor bosses to justify the controllers request to avoid a pay cut like other essential forces. However, the cool, cruel Cole man’s pension was just around the corner and he did not want to rock the boat. So he simply told the representatives of CSB “no need”. CSB walked away not believing their luck. Over the years, this decision will cost every controller hundreds of thousands of dollars in salary, gratuity and pensions. Nice man!

During a recent "Safety Meeting" our COP made the statement that Rocket science is not............wait for it!…………...ROCKET SCIENCE!


And you wonder why staff morale in HKATC is low? A brain & a good attitude is vital for controllers as well as for ATC management.

[gweiloairline]

Throw A dyce - so are you now throwing dices in Macau? A job that befits you more as Poon says "handcraft" men!

Lepsep - of course you cant do flow; from my girlfriend still in hkatc, only the best are put in Approach, the not so good in Tower, and the LS in area, i.e. one of you

[brother4]

No more replies to the Thread Starter but noises only.

[throw a dyce]

Gweilo,
It the way you tell 'em.:ok:
Laugh, I thought I'd never stop.:D
Oh I'm late for the casino,better fly.:p

[MercuryRising]

Yeah I agree B4, get back on topic or start a new thread.

[LapSap]

Nice posts gweiloairline. Keep believing what your girlfriend tells you. Good to hear you have a handle on things in HK ATC.
Any chance you could get back to the thread instead of bagging the crap out of people you supposedly don't know? (or maybe you are still in ATC here?)

Without wishing to take his side here, any chance that the person in question's comment was taken out of context? Whether you like it or not our jobs are becoming more proceduralised by the guys on the 4th floor, and we look like a production line in a factory. It may not have meant to be derogatory- just a factual observation!

[On the beach]

Glad you like the SIKOU reversal, only took 7 years from planning to implementation. Can't really comment on the lack of talk on the first 2 freqs. inbound but sounds like things were going smoothly.

The problem with sequencing into HK is that there are basically 7 streams of inbound traffic being integrated into 1 via 3 intermediate stages - ABBEY, BAKER and MURRY. The first 2 are relatively easy to set-up with an in-trail spacing (10nm for a single feed, 20nm for a dual feed). The third MURRY has its own problem in that traffic via SIERA can't be integrated into this neat in-trail scenario until it hits SIERA. That's where the trouble is, in that with 3 gate feeds the spacing needs to be 30nm in-trail through each one. Ideally, if HK had control of the SIERA traffic from top of descent then it could be integrated into the other 2 streams more smoothly.

Why 10nm/20nm/30nm? Well, the average speed through ABBEY/BAKER/SIERA should be reducing to about 280kts which then compresses down to about half that speed on short final as does the spacing. The aim being to have about 5nm spacing on final. HK has the overall picture but it doesn't have the overall control of all the inbound traffic until the SIERA arrivals join the fray. This is where rapid integration has to take place and will invariably lead to what may seem like a chaotic string of instructions. Unfortunately, things are unlikely to change until the whole Pearl River Delta traffic situation is rationalised and HK gets to control SIERA traffic a lot earlier.

If you can, I would urge you to pay a visit to the ATC centre and see the whole picture for yourself. Then, I think you will be able to see exactly what I'm on about and the guys there will certainly be able to explain it better than my attempts here.

On the beach

ps. I like the moniker

[RRSM]

Meanwhile we must all keep in mind that this is - after all - not rocket science!

[LapSap]

http://www.lechatnoirboutique.com/prodimages/Coffee%20Mug%20-%20Far%20Side%20Rocket%20Scientists.jpg
(image copywrite Gary Larson)

Looks a bit like my vectoring.:ok:

[throw a dyce]

The real Gweilo Airlines,(The CLK boys) branch out into space travel.Get there in worse shape,if you ever get off the ground at all.:)
''Looks like a good way to have a short career'' Jim Lovell Apollo 8 and 13.

[Nut.Nut]

The Rocket looks like out die.rector.

[heartless]

Our spineless Association President wrote a letter supposedly on the behalf of controllers asking for an explanation of the factory worker comment but it was addressed to another spineless dog - our section chief only who is not even a controller. He was put there because shorty cannot stand anyone else. The figure head chief never even dare to come to talk to us in the centre, but on the 4th floor, he barks at all his hanger ons and only shut up when shorty turns up, then it is yes sir to every whisper. P Lok and A Lam must be rolling with laughter in their graves although it is through there lack of vision that shorty get to where he is.

[SuzieWong]

Yes the letter on the notice board.
Why it is the president feels the need to write in this style? soooo weak. He makes the apology or excuse. what a useless Association we have. nothing more than an extention of Management. Always telling us how good it is to work hand in hand with them. Pathetic. Start fighting for US! We don't care about shiney new centre, we don't care about shiney new radar system, we don't care about shiney new chairs! Get our pay cut back! Get our roster fixed! Get our leave system fixed!:mad:

[RX-78]

can't agree more:D
i used to love my job as an atc very much but now, sorry boys and girls coming in and out of hk, i am not as helpful and efficient as before simply because i am not being respected by our lovely management at all, so don't complain excessive vectoring or delayed climb and decent....:=
by the way, you won't expect your assembly line worker, like me, to work efficiently and intelligently, will you??

[A-GPS]

I am curious to know the content of the letter and its reply. Would you extract the contents?? :confused:

[gweiloairline]

So will someone in the know pray tell me : Is it still safe to fly over HK?

There we have local Cathay pilots which Captain Parker says are not up to par
care only for $$$$$$$$$ and have never flown the Tiger Moth before;
Here we have mixed controllers with very very low morale belittled by their local boss.

Things changed since Throw a Dyce left ???

[Lemon Drop]

Is it safe to fly?

[A-GPS]

I think it is here very safe to fly. It might be just some trouble makers there. I like the atc people here in hk, they are very good professional. thank you for giving us good service.

[RRSM]

What do you mean it might just be some trouble makers here? What are you trying to say?

[Nut.Nut]

A..hinted you are the trouble maker
:8:}

[heartless]

A-GPS -The story so far - The ATC Association President complaint to ATC Chief that the Director told the supervisors that they are no different from factory line workers in his eyes. Most controllers felt that this was a demeaning remark and the director should explain himself. The ATC chief reply on his boss's behalf with a 'dog serving his master' letter saying that director is supporting ATC in terms of resources all the time and he want us to learn more. Let's be honest, the letter only infuriates us more - simply two faced management ploy- ATC is the department's only drawcard in the public eyes, does he dare to limit resources despite not unliking us - this is not the first time we were slighted openly, even with all the so called support and his gratefulness etc, everything he actually do has this who is the boss reflection and all he wanted is for us to shutup to limit the damage to him in front of the governement.

[Nut.Nut]

I do not believe the one who said atc is a factory worker job can receive a first class recognition from french government. it cannot be true! :ugh::ugh::ugh:

If we are factory worker then he must be a very poor boss and those working in the office must be the elite class.

"see" we are "yat duk see".

[QUERTY-bored]

Correct - our DGCA was awarded some Mickey Mouse aviation distinction by the French government. He was paraded like a prize monkey in France and no one should feel surprised if the French get the lucrative deal supplying radar equipment for the new ATCX in return.
Everybody now knows his comments about controllers and even the association raised its concern in writing. The reply was written by one of his subordinates and was only hot air full of praise of controllers. Why did the reply not come from the horses mouth? Why did he not address the controllers himself in order to regain at least a bit of their respect? Now nobody respects him at all.



To tell the truth if the head of a big organization makes this kind of comments he would normally be forced to apologize personally to the people he insulted and most likely he would be sacked. Can’t see that happening here though. Meanwhile, we all get a warm fuzzy feeling thinking about the new runway we’ll get in 10 years time and a possible 5 minute change in our shuttle bus schedule from Tung Chung so we can arrive at work on time and relieve our tired colleagues who have worked all night.

Expect the beatings to continue until morale improves. AMAN!

[gweiloairline]

Querty

So you are the trouble-maker, have you made enough noises??!!

Now put your nose back to the grindstone before brother 4 catches you

good luck

[By-stander]

Don't worry, brother 4 will be history in a few months.

[BBQ12345]

Love you guys. You are still naive enough to complain about stupid remarks by bosses. Perhaps you have been in the tower too long and didn't realize that the world has changed. You don't normally get praised for what you have done good. You are more likely to get chastised when others "think" you r not up to their standards (although their standards can be questionable). Feel sorry for anyone suffering from bad bosses but don't let bad bosses turn into excuse for failing in services that you are paid to delivered. Taxpayers care less about what kind of boss you have.

[Nut.Nut]

.....Brother4 will be history in a few months??

Not really! That dirty c:mad:unt will metamorphose into another post and continue his womaniser business. That bi:mad::mad:tch hardly forgets your skills in 4s. :ok:

He'll soon work in EatU and run his old business there with his brother Josy who always tansits offices doing harassing business. They will wear the same trousers. Rat is rat, things of the same kind come together :8:}

[gweiloairline]

Have you got no nuts?
Why do you changed your original post?

[gweiloairline]

me think its time you delete this thread

my girlfriend SuzieWong tells me your Asso has beaten a retreat,
with tail hanging down between two tiny balls

Once again bro 4 has won, no more noises from anyone

close it now

[SuzieWong]

my girlfriend SuzieWong tells me your Asso has beaten a retreat

I did? :confused::confused::confused:

[brother4]

How come this thread becomes girlfriend, brothers matters? Focus!

[gweiloairline]

Are you kosher?

GO FLY A KITE

[Factory Worker]

Yaa, boring thread.
Time to go back to the factory to finish off my handicraft.

:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[atfso]

What Are We If They Are Factory Worker!

[LapSap]

I think your question will be answered in 2013 when we go to the new centre.

[HKAforever]

Factory Workers? Come on, I've lost count of the number of times we are slandered with the term "glorified bus drivers". Demeaning and derogatory remarks are the norm these days. The unpleasant truth is that no one gives a #$%^ about us, unless we remind them of our value once in a while. Like that A330 incident. Then again, don't you think it's sad that it's only when things don't go according to plan that people actually noticed us in a good way?

[Nut.Nut]

What do you think who you are?! :confused: Ask Jacky! or Chow Yun Fat "See, you are yat duk see."

You guys always make noise at the corner in the centre giggling on shopping, dressing, gossip,.........one of you I remember keep talking talking from takeover to end watch two hours non-stop all about social topics!! Glad to see you all be terminated by 2013. In my point of view, half of them can be erased now, can't imagine some rubbish are still there! your check officers must be handicapped and made of rubber.

Wasting taxpayer's money on hiring these people.

[EX-COLLEAGUE]

Not sure what people talking about here but I think this is the right place to post this ads. Can anyone tell me how to contact Anthony Cheng? He must be very senior now. Leave means of contact in my mailbox please. THANK YOU.