Look at what BA are up to....

[D 7]

....Has anyone booked a BA flight lately? I did today and am absolutely disgusted at what I saw.......

After booking a longhaul flight I went to choose our seats. They are charging £20 per person per sector to CHOOSE WHERE TO SIT!! So thats £80 for two people on a return flight to....CHOOSE WHERE TO SIT!!

I kid you not!

How long has this been going on for?! Its simply daylight robbery. I'd expect this on a loco and almost understand it. But the UK flag carrier-BA, charging to choose seats, thats just plain awful.

Why is this any different to the dirty/cheap tactics that Easy or Ryanair use? Why is it that Easy and especially Ryanair are slagged off so much about ruining the airline industry, when this is just as bad if not worse...as the last time I looked-BA was not a locost carrier.

So next time anyone wants to start bitching about the usual suspects ruining our profession and industry, please include BA in your rants.

[Oceanic815]

Before you get too excited D7 this is just because you are trying to book your seats more than 24 hrs before departure!!!

If you wait until 24 hrs to go you can pick your seat for free!

Don't Panic!!!

[Capetonian]

There was a lengthy thread about this, roughly September last year I think. Most people felt the the same about the matter as you do, myself included, but then I've boycotted BA for years anyway because of their high-handed and arrogant attitude of which this is just one more indication.

[ETOPS]

D 7

You do realise that it is free to choose your seat?

When online check in opens 24hrs before departure you can select your seat at no cost. If you want to reserve a seat before that there is a charge.....just like other operators.

[Capetonian]

When online check in opens 24hrs before departure you can select your seat at no cost

.... by which time all the decent ones have been taken. And this is not just an opinion, I can prove it.

[Dit]

Actually, Ryanair do not do this. Specific seats can not be booked in any way, shape or form. Even 'Priority Boarding' doesn't book a seat, it simply allows earlier boarding, thus a greater choice of seats on the day.

[fincastle84]

As the majority of pax don't want to pay an extra charge to reserve a seat you will have plenty of choice if you check in for free 24 hours before take off.

I also agree that this thread should be moved.

[raffele]

This is old news - the new seating policy was introduced last October.

The full policy is here - British Airways - Seating guide (http://www.britishairways.com/travel/mmbseatingpolicy/public/en_gb)

As previously mentioned, it's still free to choose a seat. Simply do it at check in. If you want greater choice and flexibility with regard to where you sit, then there is now a small charge for the privilege.

To be honest, whilst it may seem like a total outrage, it's not. Particularly in comparison to, say, the restrictive baggage allowances to USA now. And BA need to get some pennies in the bank at the moment. Which would you prefer - a small charge to choose exactly where you sit, or that convenient flight you want to book not available because it's been taken off the schedule?

If you don't like it, then don't pay and wait till check in!

[Avman]

What next? Charging to use the toilets like Ryanair

Not a RYR fan at all, but just for the record they don't charge for the loo (yet)!

[PAXboy]

Sorry to be harsh D7, especially as you've only just learnt this old news but - you can always choose not to book BA again.

[groundbum]

all this upset about being charged to book your seats online etc.

Until several years ago you just turned up at the airport and those at the front of checkin got a better choice, so it's not like something has been taken away, just gone back a few steps!

And whereas it is annoying to see all these little charges, being a rose tinted person I do think the base fare hopefully came down without all the little charges, and hopefully enough fools pay for all the extras so that people like me don't have to bother and the bean counters are happy and keep base fares down etc..

G

[Scumbag O'Riley]

The company is seriously broke and seems incapable/unwilling to cut costs so what else can it do except try to increase revenue? I'd be annoyed if I was a silver/gold card holder as it's going to devalue their alleged benefits. Far cheaper to spend £20 to choose your seat >24hrs out than spend the money to be silver and choose your seat >24 hrs out.

[The SSK]

It’s called unbundling and almost all airlines are doing it, to a greater or lesser extent. Or you could call it flying a la carte, the airline provides you with a basic service at a basic price and you choose the add-ons.

Clearly, the ability to reserve a seat has a certain value for you (or you wouldn’t be bitching about it). It costs the airline *something* to supply this service. Should the passenger who couldn’t care less where he sits be expected to cross-subsidise the one who does care?

The trick is choosing which products to unbundled, and what to charge for them. While not advocating the Ryanair approach, there’s nothing intrinsically wrong about charging to go to the loo. It costs the airline money to install toilets, both actually and in terms of foregone revenue; some passengers use them for free while others don’t but still pay a share of the cost of providing them.

[PAXboy]

By the time another generation has come in, they will be amazed to learn of 'full service'. It will be ancient history, just like a boat taking six week to reach Australia and the crew falling sick due to poor food preservation. No, it's not nice to see things change from how they have been - but that's how humans have come to dominate the planet.

Don't fret too much about BA, it's into the 'home straight' now ... (and to repeat, I say that with no joy, as it will be horrible for a lot of people when it crosses the line.)

[simfly]

Hang on.... Unless you were on a more expensive booking code or silver / gold card holder, you couldn't always pick your seats in advance anyway. I flew to BKK just before this new thing was introduced and couldn't pick seats until check in. For me, the introduction of this paying to pick your seats is really just something added for those who did want to pick their exact seats. If you wanna pay for it then do, if you don't then don't, it's nos as bad as everyone keeps making out.

[sea oxen]

In the past, I've had to make two mercy flights from FRA-SYD. When I checked in, I asked for somewhere quiet. BA gave me a whole row to myself. By doing that, they bought my custom for many years. Those days are gone.

If I can bung them £50 for an exit seat on a 744, I'll happily hand it over. If they want £750 for an upgrade from PE to J at check-in, that's great - even better if they'll haggle.

As other posters have said, hark back to the days when you checked in as soon as you could in order to secure your seat. How much is an hour of your life worth?

The OP might reflect for a moment on the 'green' taxes he's paying when he flies. The seat selection stuff, as The SSK points out, is compartmentalisation of costs. It's transparent and it opens things up to the market.

SO

[Two-Tone-Blue]

IIRC, BA Gold members can check in on-line and pick their seats 3 days before departure. The rest of BA Club members, and indeed the Rest of the World, have to wait until the magical 24-hour moment, when they fight for what's left.

Do BA Gold pax deserve better treatment? I believe they do, because they shovel money into BA big-time. The rest of us, the "Less Frequent Shovellers", or "LFS" [anag] ;) inevitably take second place.

HOWEVER, if Seat 62K is something that means a lot to you, feel free to spend the extra ££ and bounce a Gold member.

Does that seat make that much difference? Probably not.
Will the concept make money for BA? Probably not.
But it might upset some of those Gold members who keep BA afloat - which IMO makes it a rather strange PR/marketing exercise.

[fincastle84]

62 K won't be made available for pre purchase on most routes. In my experience the Upper Deck is reserved for full fare payers & Gold card carriers.

I tried before well before our Christmas flight to CPT & although there were empty seats upstairs they wouldn't allocate one. When the strike was called & I brought our flight forward by a couple of days in order to avoid the IA I was suddenly allowed access to a couple of Upper Deck seats, even thought J was full.

Basically it's a very complex situation.

[Jarvy]

Gold members can choose a seat when booking exept the seats with the fold down baby thing. These are held back for passengers with babies.
As someone said earlier you haven't been able to choose a seat till check in as a normal punter.
Seats are allocated on booking so you are only ever changing them anyway. So if you book together then you sould be allocated seats together.

[Two-Tone-Blue]

@ fincastle84 ... complex is absolutely right.

The last time we paid full fare in J on a 744, we got 63A/B which is as good as you get for a couple.

On a BA Club Miles upgrade from PE on a 744, we get 'given' 20 E/F ... which is fine. Not as 'cute' as being upstairs, but WTF. The seats are reasonable, and so is the food and service and IFE.

Frankly, the whole thing is 7-8 hours out of my life. As long as I'm comfortable, I can cope. I spent far too much of my life commuting 3 hours a DAY to MoD on the Underground to get over-excited ... although The Queen did pay my train fare. Spending a few £k to get to the USA ... I guess it would be nice if it was perfect, but I get what I pay for [some of the time].

[PAXboy]

JarvySeats are allocated on booking so you are only ever changing them anyway.I think this varies with carrier? I recall a discussion about seat allocation in here some months ago - pre-dating the current announcement, I think.

One BA member of staff stated that seats were allocated the day before and described the task. Now, this may well have been SH only but they spoke about the problems of it in some detail. It was stated that - up to that point, they are all seat requests, not reservations. I sit to be corrected.

[Jarvy]

I am just talking about BA as I know when I go onto the web site before flying I am only ever moving us not adding, so was assuming the seat are pre allocated.

[fincastle84]

I agree with you whole heartedly. I enjoy the easier check in, the privacy of the lounges & the luxury of being able to park my 6' 3" frame in comfort. The position of my seat, apart from being flat:ok:, is of little importance.

Hopefully I'll be testing it out this time on Thursday en route TPA. Please be nice to us all you wonderful BA CC employees:O.

[PAXboy]

That is true, Jarvy, that they are pre-allocated but, as I understand it, they are only allocated just before the online check-in opens and not when booked. I believe some carriers use an automated system to populate the seating plan, based on requests but BA seem to use a manual allocation based on requests. It must be a real jig saw with so many 'special pleadings', families, singles, window/aisle requests, Silver/Gold etc.

[SLF3b]

I have had a gold card (genrally 2500 tier points) for over ten years. This year, 40 tier points. Heres why, from a long haul family trip last week:

Go to empty check in desk with seven (yes, seven) staff behind it. They stop their conversation long enough to tell me it is closed.
Go to lounge: tea, stale cakes - nothing (and I mean nothing) else except compulsory television in arabic. Leave, sit in quiet, sunny terminal.
Upgraded. Think, 'how nice, they have upgraded me because I have a Gold Card'. Read boarding card: 'Involuntary Upgrade due Overbooking'.
Check in at Heathrow. Elderly person in front has 23.4 kg bag. Wait in line while he protests, then searches for his keys, drops them, finds them, struggles with the lock, spills his luggage over the floor, re-packs his bag, zips it up, searches for keys, locks bag - and transfers 0.4 kg to his (empty) carry-on. Bored staff find this highly amusing.
Enjoy the T5 experience - more exercise than I have had in weeks, and I enjoy zoos.
Get to Club lounge - Saturday afternoon, it is empty. Am travelling with wife and 14 year old son. Ask (politely, as a favour) if they will let him in the lounge. Get a lecture on how many people try to blag their way into empty lounges. All three retreat vowing (yet again) never to fly BA...They have stopped trying, I have stopped buying.

[Final 3 Greens]

Go to lounge: tea, stale cakes - nothing (and I mean nothing) else except compulsory television in arabic. Leave, sit in quiet, sunny terminal.

Ah, the famous Terminal 2 lounge?

[Two-Tone-Blue]

All imminent travellers will be watching this page for their post-trip reports, I suspect. I have just 7 weeks to go before launching myself and Mrs TTB into the air with BA - be assured I shall provide a full report ;)

[sea oxen]

Enjoy the T5 experience - more exercise than I have had in weeks, and I enjoy zoos

Aargh! Aargh! Aargh!

Mummy, when will these nightmares stop?

SO

[Two-Tone-Blue]

Personally I found the T5 experience quite 'agreeable'.

Lots of up and down, and over there ... in the distance.
Lots of good exercise before being confined for >8 hours.
Lots of almost invisible/inequate signage [I remember a documentary on TV where they were apparently addressing that - shame it didn't work out in reality!
Lots of lovely retail outlets that I don't need, but enjoying the 'people watching' of those who just have to buy that last item from Harrods!

BUT - still the best Terminal that LHR has to offer.

And the conjoined Sofitel is excellent. It's a shame it's at least half a mile from the hotel to the Club check-in. But the exercise can prevent DVT - perhaps the medics advised on that aspect?

[sea oxen]

TTB

Depends how you get there. I could have sharpened my pencil in my bottom when I learned that it was a 15-minute wait to take the amazingly slow shuttle.

Once in there, the lifts were swamped. As I'm still reasonably fit and strong, I took the escalators. This was a new world of horror. Sure, I was alone, but there was no one else so psychotically inclined.

Still, mustn't grumble. SYD is still awaiting new adjectives to describe its awfulness, and as for the new BKK...:yuk:

The downstairs BA lounge at FRA has gone, but the JAL lounge replacing it is top hole. They finally disposed of that absurd checkpoint where even the Nigels were given the thrice-over.

SO

[fincastle84]

After booking a longhaul flight I went to choose our seats. They are charging £20 per person per sector to CHOOSE WHERE TO SIT!! So thats £80 for two people on a return flight to....CHOOSE WHERE TO SIT!!


I've just checked in 2 x J pax for LGW-TPA tomorrow, 4 March. 90% of seats available so plenty of choice. There are only 6 seats unsold.

[Two-Tone-Blue]

I've just checked in 2 x J pax for LGW-TPA tomorrow, 4 March. 90% of seats available so plenty of choice. There are only 6 seats unsold.

Confused there .. 90% available, only 6 unsold? That means the cabin holds ... 7? Were you really a Nav? Doing sums?

Have a great trip. :ok:

[fincastle84]

You are a regular a*** hole! 90 % of the seats were available for me to choose where I wanted to place our bottoms. BA had managed to sell all but 6 seats. QED they have sold 30 out of 36 seats.

WW gave a very good chat today. I think BA are going to have a very successful future without being dragged down by the 'you know which union members'!

Have a good trip mate.:ok:

[Two-Tone-Blue]

Ahhh ... there were some spare seats. Understood now!

Good trip to you too, mate.
Is it the hurricane season? :}

Have a great one.

[fincastle84]

No it's not the hurricane season, that's why it's so bloody cold over there. It's 20 F below normal, all due to the El Nino which has dragged the jet stream about 1,500 miles south .................yawn:cool:

[wowzz]

Just returned from 4 weeks staying 50 miles or so North of Tampa, and you're right - much colder than normal and when the sun did shine the wind was cold. Hope the weather improves for your trip.
One piece of advice, although I would imagine you don't need it: although the BA flight was the only international flight arriving, there were only 3 immigration desks open and some pax must have spent at least 30/45 minutes waiting to be processed. Therefore the nearer the front of the plane you can sit [and therefore the quicker you can get to the immigration queue] the less time you will need to wait.
Have a good trip.

[apaddyinuk]

Im still LOST as to all the people who complain about the walking in T5!

I have just flown for the first time in ages out of t3....the walk from the checkin to I think it was gate 36 or something WAS PHENOMINAL! Longer then ANYTHING in T5 and it wasnt even the longest walk according to the gate information screens!

And several times a week I flight out of T1 using the Rep Of Ireland gates 77-90! The walk from Security to the gates is one of the most convoluted journeys you could ever make at an airport!

T5 is a breeze!

[JayPee28bpr]

And several times a week I flight out of T1 using the Rep Of Ireland gates 77-90! The walk from Security to the gates is one of the most convoluted journeys you could ever make at an airport!


Closely followed by the trek to/from the gates at Pier D in Dublin airport!

[Final 3 Greens]

Im still LOST as to all the people who complain about the walking in T5!

Look through the eyes of a pax who has paid several thousand for a Club World ticket.

You clear security, but cannot turn right and go through the white door to the Concorde room unless you have a gold card.

You therefore turn left and walk to an escalator, which takes you down a floor.

You then have top walk back under where you cam from, through loads of shops and take an escalator back up.

You then have to wal back down in the direction of security to find another escalator that takes you up to where you enter the lounge.

Which is physically not too far from the exit from security.

This is extremely irritating and not a good use of time, which is often tight.

One of the main reasons business travellers pay a premium is for convenience, another is to save time (fast track, reduced check in times etc.)

I agree that T3 has some long walks, but it does not poke a stick in the eye of the business customer.

BA should never had agreed to this ludicrous situation.

[Skipness One Echo]

white door to the Concorde room unless you have a gold card.


Dear God I assumed you were a Gold card holder. Dear me.

[Haven't a clue]

white door to the Concorde room unless you have a gold card

Erm...no. You have to be travelling in F or (from the BA site)

Previously issued by invitation only, the Concorde Room Card will now be offered to Gold Executive Club members who earn 5,000 Tier Points.

But you do get to be ignored by a nicer class of people.

[Final 3 Greens]

As I specified a J class pax, they won't be travelling F.

So that means even a J class pax with a gold card, but less than 5,000 tier points, has to take the hike.

And if that passenger is travelling on a flexible ticket to Tokyo, they will have have paid £6,449 for the privilege.

It's ludicrous, isn't it?

At the other airports I use, the lounges are placed for the convenience of the pax, not the shops.

[Two-Tone-Blue]

@ F3G ... thanks for that route plan; a useful reminder.

As a humble J, I really thought I'd got lost by the time I'd done the "long walk" to reach the Galleries Lounge. You're quite right: "Concorde" has set a new standard in putting J-pax in the place an making them walk the extra mile [almost literally]. Did someone actually design this? Or is it like the kid controlling at JFK, who got to pencil in where the J-pax can't get access?

Anyway, next trip we're heading straight to the Galleries Lounge above our Gate in T5b [which never seems to get mentioned by either BA or BAA]. I only found it by accident once we'd done the journey to T5b to get ready to board.

Why do BA/BAA spend so much money on providing these facilities, and then make them so difficult to access?
Why do BA spend so much time pi55ing off J-pax?

[PS - don't even get me started on the "Priority Security" channel]

[Jarvy]

Mrs. J often flys in J class and she has never been pissed off with BA. Alot of her colleagues also travel in J and they have never been pissed off.
We have in the past had some bad experiences on other airlines and have voted with our money, we still to this day refuse to use 2 airlines due to very poor service. So if you don't like the product don't use it simples.

[Final 3 Greens]

Maybe they have lower expectations than some of us?

Possibly because we travel on the best airlines in the world, as well?

[Jarvy]

Maybe or perhaps they have been luckier.
The fact still remains if you don't like the product don't use it. If you can get better value elsewhere do so.

[Two-Tone-Blue]

@ Jarvy ... which sort of brings us back to where the thread is supposed to be.

People pay a lot of beans to fly up front, and they expect something for their money other than just a bigger seat. Most people here, I guess, are British, and naturally expect British Airways to deliver a quality product.

AIRLINE QUALITY (http://www.airlinequality.com/)

Feel free to explore how wonderful US airlines are. I won't even think of flying one across the Atlantic. :cool:

[Jarvy]

No I don't want to fly across the pond with an american airline. There are only 2 british airlines that fly on the route I choose (bos-lhr). I fly mostly down the back so the two are pretty much the same exept that from my point of view T5 is much better than T3.
Mrs J flies further up the plane and prefers the red airline but it costs more so she goes with BA which from her view offer better value. The company she works for get a better deal with American but that is going a bit too far.
To finish off, myself and F3G will never agree on BA or T5.

[Two-Tone-Blue]

@ Jarvy ... Interesting comment from you on pricing with BA/VS. Booking from this side of the pond [LHR-IAD] they always come up with the same cost [+- about £5].

However ... down the back, I agree VS and BA are fairly similar, I recall.
Up front it's a question of style/comfort/service.

T5 is not great, but better than T3. At least my overnight stop is in a hotel attached to T5. Cheaper hotels exist outside the perimeter, but then the cab fare to the Terminal quickly eliminates the difference!

[Jarvy]

Funny about pricing but maybe company discounts come into play in favour of BA.
Going back to the begining of this thread, we had booked to fly WT and because Mrs J is gold we were giving exit row seats on booking.
I also think T5 is better than T4 and better than either at Gatwick.

[Final 3 Greens]

To finish off, myself and F3G will never agree on BA or T5.

That is not true, for example

T5 is much better than T3.

I agree with. Then again, it should be, as one is a brand new design and the other is nearly 50 years old, landed with an old fashioned design and added to in an ad hoc manner over the intervening period.

I would also choose BA over the US carriers on the BOS-LHR routing, in fact I would choose BA over VS.

I repeat, as I have said on other threads, I have never had a bad experience with BA aloft. The service is acceptable or better.

On the other hand the ground service is often diabolical; e.g. I had to spend 20 minutes speaking to my credit card company yesterday (international call), because BA did not know whether they had charged me for some flights I booked for later in the year and called me to ask whether I knew.

Their system had confirmed payment had been taken, but they could not find the payment.

When I called back to tell them the money had not been debited, their finance section decided to wait for two days before re-debiting, 'just in case we have a hold over the funds.'

That is just crass.

With the very greatest of respect, I travel frequently in business class and have very high expectations of the product/service - I would admit to being very critical.

I make no apologies for this and apply the same standard to my own performance (I run a micro service business, where our clients are also hyper critical - quite rightly for the fees they pay.)

If I was travelling economy (and I do sometimes, on leisure) I would be much less critical as my perception of value for money changes considerably.

Finally, I don't know if you are American or an expat Brit, but I want British Airways to be a strong player. It's good for me as a traveller and as a British citizen I want to take pride in our largest national carrier.

Those who have been on PPrune for a long time will know that I was a very strong supporter of BA until about 2005, when a combination of threatened strikes and the GG fiasco made me step back and question my loyalty.

Sadly, the past 5 years have seen a further decline, IMHO.

Over my 32 years of business travel, BA started off as 'Best Avoided', then improved dramatically to be my airline of choice from the mid 90's to 2005 and now, sadly, are returning to their former status.

The sad aspect is that BA does have some very good individuals working for it (I think of some cabin crew and also the operational research people I knew), but has suffered from poor leadership and management for a long time. In particular, the company has seriously lost its way in managing its relationship with independent premium passengers, who are not hampered by corporate travel policies and will switch carrier if mishandled.

Paxboy has opined several times about the decline of BA and saldy I tend to agree with his call.

If you take a look at this webpage Understanding the Corporate Lifecycle | Adizes (http://www.adizes.com/corporate_lifecycle.html) it may be interesting to take a view where BA is on it's corporate lifecycle.

[Haven't a clue]

F3G:

In particular, the company has seriously lost its way in managing its relationship with independent premium passengers, who are not hampered by corporate travel policies and will switch carrier if mishandled.

I couldn't agree more. And what really niggles me is the nagging suspicion that the flexi F fare that I pay is artificially hiked to allow the corporate customer a substantial "discount". Which I effectively subsidise. It would be nice to know I am wrong.

[Final 3 Greens]

Not just corporates, but staff as well.

[Jarvy]

I am a brit who has lived out here for only 18 months and its nice to find some things we agree on.
We can all look at things and say how it could be better. I can only comment on the things in my little world. We have only travelled with with a few airlines so can only comment on those. You agree that from Boston to London my options are limited and BA is the better one.I could increase my options if I used any of the New York airports but I won't as I like Boston Logan.
We do get some of the older aircraft of the BA fleet and I also understand that its not a popular route with the crews.
We have also in the past used BA on european routes (Mrs. J spent 18 months comuting between the UK, Germany and Portugal).
I will agree that overall standards have dropped but I think this has happened across the board. Early Easyjet flights were much better than todays, the same applies to Virgin. I flew with Virgin to Miami in the early 90's and service was much better than current flights.
Why sould this be so?
I believe the answer to that not just one thing but many and varied, and if I knew the whole answer I could be a very wealthy man. I know where to start and that is customer satisfaction first and foremost.

[Two-Tone-Blue]

@ Jarvy ... you said:
We do get some of the older aircraft of the BA fleet and I also understand that its not a popular route with the crews.

... which, i hope, is one of the aspects that BA will be addressing.

Frankly, at the risk of being banned from this Forum [I've been denied access to the "Private" CC Forum for a couple of weeks now], this is where the whole BA operation starts to go down the tubes.

I pay my fare and I expect to receive what I pay for. In the nicest possible way, I really [U]don't care whether the CC enjoy flying that route or not. I gather the same applies to BA flying to IAD. Hey, people, sorry about the lack of the white sandy beach. They don't do those in MA or VA. Live with it, or work with an airline that only does long stop-overs at somewhere with a nice beach/hotel. Please don't blame the pax for flying to a destination you don't like.

@ F3G ... I have never had a bad experience with BA aloft. The service is acceptable or better. Is that Premium service that is acceptable? Whatever happened to 'excellence'? Remember the "World's Favourite Airline"? Do BA believe that 'acceptable' is good enough in a competitive marketplace?

@ British Airways ... please, when the current nausea has subsided, resume offering a superior product to your Premium pax. "Acceptable" isn't going to recover the thousands of pax who have deserted BA in recent months.

@ BA Cabin Crew ... I honestly, and with sincerity, do NOT tar you all with the same brush. Most of those who i have encountered have been excellent, especially on European and Domestic sectors. The unfortunate exception is some of those who work LHR-IAD.

Does that minor rant get anyone anywhere? Probably not. Sorry. :hmm:

[PAXboy]

Remember the "World's Favourite Airline"?If I recall correctly, that was based on international pax carried NOT how the pax felt about the carrier!!! It was always acknowledged that AA carry more pax but do so within the USA. BA found this fact about their number of international pax and went with it, i.e. Simply because we are a small country, BA could claim to be big! It was a very successful pitch.

F3G Thanks for the link to Adizes, I have often sketched that for folks so it's very nice to have a fully 'Flashed' version of it. My response is 'Bureaucracy'. How near the start of that phase, depends on how benevolent you feel. There are a number of other companies in the UK and USA that are in a similar position, such as most of the motor-car manufacturers. I won't start on other airlines ...

For the record (again for new joiners of this forum) it gives me no pleasure to say this about BA and I shall not see them eventually close and get taken over with any joy - but it will happen, it's only how and when. As with F3G, I have had wonderful flights with BA and they only stopped being my first choice in long haul after the Dirty Tricks affair.

[Final 3 Greens]

TTB

Is that Premium service that is acceptable? Whatever happened to 'excellence'?

When you read the CC forum, the feeling is the BA people really believe that they are providing 'excellence', when in fact they are providing something that is really mid range.

To be fair, the cutbacks imposed by management have degraded the product, but the service compenent is usually acceptable to good.

On the other hand there are other carriers who are good to excellent.

There was a discussion on here, not so long ago, about why BA ask people to close the overhead bins.

That summed it up for me. The people explaining this were not being sarcastic, but the detachment from reality was quite tangible.

This policy was putting the needs of CC before passengers and I have not encountered another airline who expects this.

Small point, perhaps, but a significant indicator of mindset I would say.

I was lucky enough to start travelling at the end of the era of the BOAC 'Sergeant Major', who were unbelievably good at what they did.

[aaaabbbbcccc1111]

As a customer, when you say you are flying BA, it is still met with approval by your peers, that you are flying with the best. Professionally as an Air Traffic Controller, BA pilots are great to work with. I am flying with BA long haul on Thursday after flying with Virgin last year. I have got to say, I will be flying with Virgin next time. I cannot believe that BA would stoop so low as to charge to book a seat. As a family of 4, it will cost me £80, and it is less to do with the money, but more to do with principle, that I will not pay this ridiculous charge. It feels like I am traveling with Ryanair. I have been allocated seats as I have a child, well 2 actually but one is over 12, but we are not all in the same row, so I will have to wake up early from my nightshift, to check in and try and change my seats. I actually work the flight I am going on every day, and usually met with the question, "any chance of this and that " and if I can I accommodate. I just phoned BA and asked any chance of moving one seat so we are in the same row and it is an inconvenience to check in tomorrow, and they said I would have to pay this silly charge. (and I didn't name drop, I just asked as a favour to a customer who has spent over £2000 for a flight)

[radeng]

I was told (by BA ground staff) that internally and informally, the Concorde door is referred to as the 'million pound door', as BA have to pay an extortionate amount to BAA to have that door and not have F class pax walk past the shops.

BAA really is the pits and the economies they make on T5 are silly. No paper towels in toilets - does it never occur to these dimwits that people may want to wash their face? Lack of moving walkways on arrival - one can go on and on. Public flogging and execution of the top three levels of BAA management would be a good start - 'pour encourager les autres'.

[BAAlltheway]

I was told (by BA ground staff) that internally and informally, the Concorde door is referred to as the 'million pound door', as BA have to pay an extortionate amount to BAA to have that door and not have F class pax walk past the shops.


Pretty much true. When T5 was being designed, the briefed BA requirement for the Galleries was for entrance at the same level as security. BAA disregarded this, and provided the entrance on the gate level as they wanted the BA premium customers with lots of cash (in their eyes) to walk past all the shops. That is why its all the posh shops going down that end towards the Galleries. On many occasions before opening BAA were approached again and asked if they would reconsider. Sometimes the answer was a flat no. Sometimes they said yes, but with a hefty price tag. And a million£per year is underestimating it by a long way. Eventually they agreed to having "the million pound door" but on the proviso that it really was only for use into the Concorde Lounge so they don't lose too much shopping revenue. And again a million £ price tag is a bit stingy as an estimate of what that is costing.

[Capetonian]

I called BA on behalf of a close friend who for compassionate reasons (genuine) needed to change the inbound sector on a Premium Economy long haul. These are people who as a family have spent over £50,000 per annum with the airline over the last few years and two of whom are Gold Card holders.

Because it was discounted (a published fare, not a special offer, consolidator, or ID ticket) the fare rule stated that the fare had to be recalculated at the full applicable fare from the point of origin. As it happens the outbound portion was a full 'W' class fare, but they chose to apply the most restrictive condition from origin to destination, even though the rule didn't state that this had to be the case (some do) and they could have used discretion and appplied it only to the inbound leg.

My request to speak to a supervisor was met with an obstructiveness and arrogance bordering on rudeness and only through being tenacious was I able to do so. He was as unyielding and unsympathetic as his underling.

This time, they've got their few hundred pounds. There won't be any more going their way. When I told the supervisor this I was told that 'that is a choice that you are entitled to make'.

[JayPee28bpr]

I've had very similar experiences to you on BA, not to mention their near perfect record when it comes to not loading passengers and bags onto the same flight.

BA are actually no different to virtually every other western airline, "full service" or "LoCo", in that they simply do not care about their customers. I guess a 41% share of slots at LHR pretty much means they don't need to.

WW is at least honest enough to admit that BA isn't Ryanair, and cannot match that airline for punctuality or lost bags stats.

[Griff]

Reading these threads about the deterioration in service levels at British Airways makes me feel very sad.

It makes me sad because I am old enough to remember when the airline went out of its way to help passengers and make sure they were well looked after.

Yes there were rules and yes there were inflexible tickets but ground staff had discretion and I found that if you were nice and polite then BA ground staff would often do all in their power to help you out.

Many years ago now I booked a trip to JFK - out economy and back on Concorde. (yes I did say it was a long time ago!) It was in the days of those rectangular paper tickets and the words 'Non END/REF' had pride of place to show no changes were permitted.

As it happened the outbound Concorde never made it to New York so my return flight was obviously cancelled.

BA said I could either fly back First Class or book onto another Concorde flight at a date of my choosing.

I wanted to fly Concorde so I opted to change my return flight for one a month or so later but this left me with the problem of having to buy another ticket to fly home.

Obviously a last minute, one-way ticket, bought at JFK, just hours before I wanted to fly was going to cost me a small fortune.

The ticket agent quoted me the price, saw me turn white, checked his screen again and found that whichever flight he booked me on that evening all the prices would be about the same.

Then he did something he didn't have to do and which I have never forgotten.

He said: "I suppose it is our fault that your original flight was cancelled so let's see if I can do anything about your flight home today."

He then set to work on the keyboard, smiled, and came up with a fare which was a fraction of the earlier price.

I asked him what he had done and he told me he had calculated what the fare would have been had I booked it at the time I originally purchased my ticket.

"Can you do that?"I asked.

"I certainly can sir. Have a great flight!" he replied.

BA has my airline of choice since then but over the years the airline has become less and less likely to help out when a passenger has a problem.

Maybe the time is rapidly approaching when I check out the competition when making my long-haul travel plans.

Griff.

[Capetonian]

Griff : The good old days when passengers were ladies and gentlemen, not scruffy arrogant yobs, and airline counters were staffed by ladies and gentlemen and not automatons pushing buttons.

[Skipness One Echo]

Or to put it another way, more people fly more often. People don't stay in a job for life anymore, loyalty to one's employer is not what it was and the attitude to customers and staff has changed right across the economy.

It's not BA's fault, everyone's at it. Few companies could find the right people for the right wage in the UK talent pool to fill the jobs with the discretion required. There's too many flights, hence rules and procedures to maintain operations that impact upon discretion. It also removed the ability of staff to muck about with revenue.

In the UK we don't have a single airport that was built from scratch with the 21st century long haul / short haul / legacy / loco mix in mind. Next week I fly through T3 LHR built for the 707 and DC8, one can't help but notice it now looks like the Trafford Centre with an immigration centre attached. I think the problem runs WAY deeper than BA.

Indeed if they brought back all the little touches that were great back in the day, I'd be paying a comparable price that used to leave me skint for a month after booking. In short, they'd go bust remarkably quickly, BASSA notwithstanding.

[manintheback]

Ever since Eddington came on board BA seem to have become spectacularly good at alienating its best premium passengers, for me its now just one of a number of airlines I look at where once it was BA wherever possible.

Just a couple of examples of the stupidity
Old days a very high usage Gold Car holder - something like £100k a year spend if I recall - you got a freebie silver card for the wife/partner. Everytime my wife flew to see me at personal cost so in the back - of course she used BA. Cost to BA a cup of coffee in the lounge. Benefit withdrawn. Started flying other carries depending on schedule.

High usage Gold Car holder - 2 free upgrades. Cost to BA, effectively zero.Then made it almost impossible to use the damn things irrespective of seat availability or not. Result - holiday flights and personal cost flights - booked on best available airline.

Expecting a passenger who has just spent over £3 grand on a biz class flight to fork out another £120 to choose a seat at time of booking. Companies pay for the flight but they wont pay to book a seat in advance. Result, other carrier used.

[Haven't a clue]

By way of contrast, and to show that some companies still value their customers.

Booked IOM to LGW then LHR to HKG; IOM flight cancelled due to ash cloud. Called the HK hotel with which I had a booking with a 48 hour cancelation period. Explained that I couldn't fly from IOM to get my LHR flight because of volcano, that I needed to cancel my reservation, and that I knew I was in for the no show penalty. She asked me to repeat the bit about the volcano (I'm sure that news of it's activities could not have reached HK by that time as only the north of England had beed shut down). I was asked to send her an email relating the circumstances which she would pass to her revenue manager, to see whether the penalty might be waived.

I didn't ask for this, but I was polite etc when telling the tale.

Shortly after my email was sent I received a reply for the revenue manager advising that no penalty would be sought.

I had stayed with this hotel a few times before, and I have stayed several times since. It is now my hotel of choice in HK and I happily recommend it whenever the opportunity arrises.

Customer service does still exist. In Asia.

[Ancient Observer]

I wouldadd my thoughts here, but it isn't worth it as those in BA who could do something about it don't read this stuff, and if they do, they don't care.
We just upset JSL, GG and Tira.

[crewmeal]

Customer service does still exist. In Asia.

As demonstrated by Cathy Pacific recently when there was that fire at LHR and no catering could be loaded.

BA's answer would be 'tough' not our problem

[Juan Tugoh]

All this moaning. What are you doing about it? Have you written to BA? or are you just blowing off steam?

Ultimately the market will dictate whether or not this is just a standard internet forum whine or whether there is really anything in it. If you are all correct BA will soon go bust due to it's customers leaving in droves. The converse is that if your expectations have been too high, then BA will continue serenely on without you.

For a more balanced view of BA and its strengths and weaknesses as a full service airline from the perspective of it's frequent flyers go to flyertalk.com

JT

[Ancient Observer]

Juan,
you, you are right. :D

As I said above, continuation of all the negativity here just upsets the good guys & girls, although F3Gs' battles against poor service are always worth a read!
However, the problem with flyertalk is that it has a disproportionate number of premium pax commenting on BA.

[PAXboy]

JT I should like to think that is true but my experience of living and working in Britain (as an adult) for 35 years says otherwise. I have seen a very considerable number of companies systematically reduce their customer service in the name of profit and BA is but one of the many.

The contra-intuitive way of getting out of a black hole does not occur to the herd mentality that is engendered by the daily examination of the share price. From the days when people invested for the long term, to the days when too many (post 1986) look upon the FTSE as a slot machine, have contributed to the running of PLCs.

There is enough evidence to show that BA has not been listening for many years and I suggest, they are not going to listen now. They have chosen a path and are following it. Good luck to them. If they do (as I have said before) sink lower in the global rankings, it does not matter as new services and carriers will overtake them. Sad? Yes. But it happens all the time. It's called survival of the fittest. In terms of a company it is now thought the survival of the financially fittest but if the service is not there, then the finance will fade.

Over the years I've been participating in this forum, I could not begin to imagine how many sorry tales we have heard of BA responding to complaints with standard letters or no letter. If you write to a company and point out the problem and they do not respond - why do it again? Why keep buying from them?

BA have not been my first choice of carrier for 20 years but I know from the times when I have used them that their service is great. But they went for Dirty Tricks and it's been downhill since. I feel very sorry for the engineering staff and the flight/cabin crew but they will be defeated by their management.

[ExXB]

Juan, IMHO you are wrong.

Writing to BA is a waste of time. I have written three times in the last weeks with a complaint, and a small monetary claim, over a flight cancellation on day 1 of the recent strike when the only option I was given was to return from my holiday a day early. Soon afterwards the cancelled the day before's flight (I suspect to use the slot to get chartered aircraft on the ground at LHR) and left us standing by at LHR going from gate to gate trying to get home. Frankly nobody could give a XXXX, it must have been our fault.

I have yet to have even an acknowledgement. It is also impossible to use e-mail to get in touch.

I'm ex-gold, but I won't travel BA unless there is no other option.

Flyertalk has many BA staff 'on-board' who enjoy bullying anyone who doesn't love BA to pieces. It is not impartial.

[Juan Tugoh]

Writing to BA is a waste of time

But moaning on an internet forum works for you? It gets results? BA change their service because of it? The only way BA will change is if they get enough letters from enough customers to show that their service is not up to standard. A single complaint may not change things but as part of many it may. But if on the other hand you feel you will get better results by moaning here, please carry on.

@Paxboy, we seem to be making the same point, when I referred to the market, I was talking about the wider market, not the stock market. If the demand for your service is falling due to poor product then you either adapt or go out of business. The world of business is Darwinistic - evolve or die. If BA do not evolve they will die. Customer service is never perfect, sometimes companies get it wrong, and if they do that they need to be told.

[cavortingcheetah]

I once wrote BA a polysyllabic pirouette of protest when Concord was six hours late out of London to collect two of us in Barbados. It worked quite well and BA very kindly sent me three First Class returns to Bridgetown as a compensation for the inconvenience of arriving into Heathrow later than the usual supersonic civilised time. I have no idea why the airline's largesse extended to three tickets. It did however involve me in considerable expense in that I had to fund another hotel stay in Barbados in order to use the tickets so kindly supplied by BA. So yes indeed, writing to an airline can work. It takes only a little time to politely tell them how irritated you are. And if you do receive apologetic consolation it is very gratifying if only because of its apparent rarity value.

[Lotpax]

It is a shame to read the comments on here about BA service deteriorating.

I used to think (about 15 years ago) that it was one of the best airlines in the world.

However, it is now quite some time since I have flown with the airline and I would be loathe to do so anytime soon due to the industrial action - at least until management and unions demonstrate that they can work together like adults for a sustained period of time.

[Capetonian]

When something goes wrong I write to the organisation concerned, and I tell them what require and why. My request is usually reasonable (in my view!).

When they send back a standard cut and paste bull**** reply I escalate the matter. I continue to do so until I get what I want - which is often more than I asked for at the outset. Persistence is the name of the game.

Having a good old bitch on internet forums is a relief valve and I suspect that many of us who post on such forums hope that their comments are read by senior PR staff at the airlines.

[Timothy Claypole]

I called BA on behalf of a close friend who for compassionate reasons (genuine) needed to change the inbound sector on a Premium Economy long haul. These are people who as a family have spent over £50,000 per annum with the airline over the last few years and two of whom are Gold Card holders.

Unfortunately, the cold, dispassionate reality is that BA (and no doubt every other major airline) receive multiple requests for compassionate ticket changes every day. I've known of a number of genuine requests supported by documentary evidence (bereavement or sudden hospitalisation of a family member for example) be actioned swiftly with BA pulling out all the stops to help. In contrast there are plenty of requests which are unsupported and are likely to be an attempt to avoid the change fee on a highly-discounted non-flexible fare. These requests come from the full range of customers. How is BA to tell the difference?

[ExXB]

But moaning on an internet forum works for you? It gets results? BA change their service because of it?
My 'moan' was in response to your suggestion that this is how I should handle the situation. I don't expect BA will change their service because of my comments.

I'm not holding out any hope of the situation improving. Which is why I won't travel BA unless I have no other option. And I'm not the only one.

I see a lot of comments from others who are saying, if you allow me to paraphrase. BA used to be really good but they are failing badly now, I sure hope they return to their glory, soon! Well I see no signs of that.

If you are BA staff, can I suggest you pass along my 'moan'? Rather than treat me as a whiner, you should consider me to be a 'canary'. I could care less if my particular issue is dealt with, but you should.

[Capetonian]

Timothy Claypole

How is BA to tell the difference? Fair comment, but in the old days they had staff who were empowered to use discretion and, if appropriate, ask for supporting documentation. In the case I cited, evidence was available (in fact, they would only have had to have seen a newspaper) and I offered it, but they were quite blatantly disinterested and not even prepared to discuss it.

I've worked for airlines for long enough to know that there are chancers by the million out there, and that there are millionaires who are too mean to pay a £10 amendment fee.

Sorry, but however you look at it BA have failed miserably in their duty of care to their most loyal and valuable customers.

[Basil]

BA, not to mention their near perfect record when it comes to not loading passengers and bags onto the same flight
What absolute tosh!
Over 37 years my baggage has been delayed once.

Unfortunately, the cold, dispassionate reality is that BA (and no doubt every other major airline) receive multiple requests for compassionate ticket changes every day.
People do come up with excuses, e.g.:
Sitting in exit seats on LoCo for which we'd paid extra, pax boards, looks at our seats and begins to complain about 'bad legs, have to sit on exit seat' etc. Hostie, who'd heard it all before, smiled and directed aforementioned pax to allocated seat.
Sob story from pax on my flight. Heavy crew (two of us) gave up rest seats to pax. Subsequently discovered all was not quite as related to CSD.:*

[JayPee28bpr]

Check BA's bag stats over the years - very poor. You've been very lucky. By way of example of the opposite extreme, BA managed to not transport my bags with me on three successive trips to Scotland. Bad enough in and of itself, but made worse by what was clearly a lack of interest that the problem actually existed. The attitude is fostered by knowing that the person actually suffering is locked in by virtue of corporate travel policies that they don't control, and hence threats to go elsewhere are empty ones. Like I say, 41% of slots at LHR is the real problem, and one that no government has any appetite or incentive to resolve.

[Capetonian]

We stopped flying BA about 8 years ago. I do remember that on three consecutive single sector trips they lost my son's pushchair.

The second time it happened, when we gave the lady our address for it to be delivered, it turned out that she lived round the corner from us. She took it upon herself to drive round, after her duty finished, with one from her own household which she lent us until ours arrived. I wrote to BA as I wanted her thoughtfulness and kindness to be on record. I never even got a reply.

Unfortunately the other two events were handled with a total lack of interest and sympathy.

[PAXboy]

These mixed reports of good and bad from BA are typical of what I have heard over the last years. The question will be whether they can move towards more good than bad. Since they have moved from lots of good to a fair bit of bad - the likelihood is that they are moving down the scale.

On the other hand, they could defy all other large corporations that have gone before and resuscitate their service and sales.

[Basil]

JayPee28bpr and Capetonian,

I'm sorry to have dismissed your complaint in a cavalier manner and agree that it is particularly unacceptable to treat disadvantaged passengers in an offhand way.

When I was in BA there was a company policy of 'Service recovery', that is to say that errors should be handled in a manner which would leave the offended passenger with a higher opinion of the company than they would have had even if no error had occurred in the first place.
Back then I carried overburdened ladies coats, fixed the vacuum toilets on the B744 (not nice) etc.

I regret the changes since then which you describe.

Bas.

[Capetonian]

When I was in BA there was a company policy of 'Service recovery', that is to say that errors should be handled in a manner which would leave the offended passenger with a higher opinion of the company than they would have had even if no error had occurred in the first place.

the lady ........ took it upon herself to drive round, after her duty finished, with one from her own household which she lent us until ours arrived. I wrote to BA as I wanted her thoughtfulness and kindness to be on record. I never even got a reply.

Exactly, but sadly this is very much something of the past.

[radeng]

As far as I can make out, the problem is not the staff, but the management/bean counters who have removed all the capability of staff being able to use their initiative. For example, in the First Class Lounge in T5, apparently they can no longer do changes to tickets which they used to be able to do. It seems that BA staff are increasingly frustrated by this removal of their ability to help customers.

As far as BA bags stats are concerned, my wife did have a problem some years back, and got £150 voucher after complaining. My biggest problems have been in transfers between an internal flight and BA at CDG. Even with 4-1/2 hours, they couldn't manage it - and I don't blame BA for that. So far, I've flown BA 28 times this year so far, and not lost a bag yet.....Yes, this is aksing for trouble!

[Tiramisu]

Posted by Basil
When I was in BA there was a company policy of 'Service recovery', that is to say that errors should be handled in a manner which would leave the offended passenger with a higher opinion of the company than they would have had even if no error had occurred in the first place.

There still is.
We as in charge crew members used to be able to offer 'Service Recovery' in the form of a gift from our inflight sales but that has now ceased for various reasons.
However, I have arranged for a gift to be sent directly to the customer by contacting Customer Relations by way of an apology on a few occasions in the past, where the customer has had the experiences related here. This used to be anything from airmiles, bottles of wine, and flowers. The same I believe, still apllies on the ground.
If I felt as a SCCM that a customer has been mishandled, I still do it and of course there is always the facility to upgrade the customer with the consent of the Captain and only for a commercial reason.

Capetonian,
Some of us still go 'beyond the call' of duty for our customers, within the line of duty.:)

[Capetonian]

Some of us still go 'beyond the call' of duty for our customers, within the line of duty

I am glad to hear that, unfortunately I've not had the pleasure of experiencing this since I've only flown once with BA in the last 8 years or so and the reports I'm hearing do not make me inclined to increase that frequency.

I do feel sorry for people like you, and many of my friends who work for BA, who clearly do care, but there are too many who don't.

[Tiramisu]

Capetonian,
I am truly sorry for the experiences you've had with us re-your son's lost pushchair. It was nice of you to write and thank the member of ground staff who was incredibly kind to do what she did. Equally, it would also have been nice for her to have seen the nice gesture from yourself in taking the time to write.
Perhaps in the future, it may be an idea to write to Willie Walsh himself in extreme and exceptional cases. Based on personal experience where a customer on one of my flights wrote to him directly very recently, he does read the letters which do get then get a response as well.

Now please don't all rush to write to Willie Wash at once!

[JayPee28bpr]

I'd just add to Capetonian's points that I've never had a bad experience with BA staff in the air, where service levels have ranged from satisfactory to "above and beyond". Problems begin and end on the ground. This includes flight booking, eg totally unrealistic transfer times between terminals assumed, meaning that to get a realistic one it is necessary to book BA long haul and non-BA operated (but BA code shares) connecting flights separately, lost bags (very much a "not our problem" attitude), and rude check in staff (though I only ever experienced that at JFK where rudeness appears to be a general job requirement).

[Ancient Observer]

Tiramasu,
thanks for that.
Anyone from BA groundstaff got some facts to add to this? Are you now prevented from doing "service recovery"??

[Impress to inflate]

Last year I flew from Brisbane to Norway for a simulator trip. Went Bris-Sing-Frank with Qaintass. Eurowing to Stavanger. On the way home I went via Heathrow T4 as I was code share with BA. As a gold card with OneWorld I went to the T4 lounge. CRAP ! It was a awful, like something from a communist state in the 70's, tatty carpet, no food or drinks and nothing to watch read. There was only 4 of us in there. To be far to BA, I did get an upgrade to Biss for the leg to Singapore, great flight, great service on board far better than Qaintass.

I am flying to Scotland in Dec with the kids with BA rather than Qaintass for most of the legs because I prefer BA longhaul.