KC-X RFP Mk II (merged)

[BEagle]

Looks like Ol' Bubba is going to be out of pocket over the Frankentanker already:

The Boeing Company is projected to exceed its cost ceiling by as much as $300 million (about 6 percent) on the initial contract to develop and build U.S. Air Force aerial refueling tankers, according to US government officials.....:eek:

See Boeing Projects About $300 Million Overrun on Tanker Contract - Bloomberg (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-06-24/boeing-projects-about-300-million-overrun-on-tanker-contract.html?cmpid=msnmoney)

:ooh:

[Modern Elmo]

Those grapes are sour, aren't they, Beagie?

[DADDY-OH!]

BEagle

Can't wait to see that A330 MRTT trying to cope with those notorious Falklands winds & rotors...

What IS the X-wind limit of the new toy???

[Dan Winterland]

32 Knots, 4 more than the VC10 - the current FI tanker. And there's no reason why it shouldn't cope. We operate 330s successfully out of Hong Kong where a strong southerly in a typhoon is worse than anything I have experienced in many flights from MPA.

[BEagle]

Those grapes are sour, aren't they, Beagie?

Not at all! If the Spams are so totally stupid as to believe Ol' Bubba's bull$hit, they deserve all they get. But I doubt whether the shareholders will be overjoyed at the fact that the Frankentanker programme is already over budget....

As for the Vag....Voyager operating from Base Aerea Gringo, as Dan says - no great problem. But I would have thought that an A400M would be a better in-theatre tanker for the Malvinas - if con-tricks, sorry, contracts allowed....:rolleyes:

There is one othr snag though - the Timmy hangar is about 1 m narrower than the 330's wingspan (as I reported 10 years ago) and snow and ice are not unknown in the sun-washed jewel of the South Atlantic...:uhoh:

[brakedwell]

As for the Vag....Voyager operating from Base Aerea Gringo, as Dan says - no great problem. But I would have thought that an A400M would be a better in-theatre tanker for the Malvinas - if con-tricks, sorry, contracts allowed....

There is one othr snag though - the Timmy hangar is about 1 m narrower than the 330's wingspan (as I reported 10 years ago) and snow and ice are not unknown in the sun-washed jewel of the South Atlantic...



It would be far cheaper to give the Malvinisti a million smackers each and cede Costa del Sur Atlantico to Argentina :cool:

[ORAC]

I think Boeing probably hope to make their money back on the support contract...... :E

Leaked Audit: Boeing Overcharged Army Up to 177,000 Percent on Helicopter Spare Parts (http://www.pogo.org/pogo-files/alerts/national-security/ns-sp-20110623-2.html)

[glad rag]

Muhahahahahahahaha :hmm::hmm:

[BEagle]

What were those lines in Independence Day?

President Thomas Whitmore: I don't understand, where does all this come from? How do you get funding for something like this?

Julius Levinson: You don't actually think they spend $20,000.00 on a hammer, $30,000.00 on a toilet seat do you?

Obviously Ol' Bubba Boeing must have been involved.......

[typerated]

Cost of Boeing’s US Air Force contract could overrun: report | Air Force News at DefenseTalk (http://www.defencetalk.com/cost-of-boeings-us-air-force-contract-could-overrun-report-35677/)

You would imagine the people at Airbus would be smiling so much it would hurt as the septic air force is getting an inferior product (and much later than they wanted) and those jolly helpful folks in Seattle will be losing a lot of money to make it happen (or will that just be US tax payers money that is lost in the end)?

On second thoughts I think Airbus will be too busy counting all the $s they are likely to receive to really care. Both in Airframe numbers ordered and associated $s, Paris Airshow was a thumping win for Airbus.

From the outside it was amusing to watch the USAF competition rules having to be so so slanted that the 767 could win. Funnily enough airlines do not typically suffer from politics induced handicapping – they just buy on quality and price and there is only one winner there.

Still, I find it comforting there seems to be a bit of natural justice in the world!

TR

[BEagle]

Ol' Bubba is going to be rather more out of pocket than that!

From Bloomberg:

Boeing Co. (BA) may be required to absorb more than $700 million and the Air Force another $600 million in overruns if projections of cost increases on the KC-46 tanker program materialize, according to newly released U.S. Air Force figures.

Boeing’s $700 million cost is a combination of a previously reported $300 million and another $432 million the Air Force disclosed today (12 July), putting Boeing’s profit from the tanker contract in jeopardy if the contract exceeds its $4.9 billion ceiling.

The Air Force and Boeing split 60/40 any dollar increase between a target cost of $3.9 billion to the contract ceiling -- a $600 million share for the service and $400 million for Boeing.

“It’s a part of the contract,” Air Force acquisition head David Van Buren said in an interview today. “That’s the geometry of the contract.”

“If they come in” over $3.9 billion, the Air Force pays its share until the $4.9 billion ceiling is reached, Air Force KC-46 program manager Major General-select Christopher Bogdon said. “If they get to $4.9 billion, they get zero profit,” Bogdon said.

“We made an aggressive yet responsible bid to win the contract. This is a win for the Air Force and a win for the taxpayer in that they will receive the best tanker at the best price,” said Conrad Chun, a Boeing spokesman.

Boeing Shares

Chicago-based Boeing declined $1.72, or 2.3 percent, to $73.35 at 4:15 p.m. in New York Stock Exchange Composite trading (on 12 July).

“Based on the present estimate to complete that Boeing has given to us, they will spend up to the ceiling price, so yes, we would share the difference between target cost and up to the ceiling. But anything over $4.9 billion is completely the responsibility of Boeing,” Pentagon director of pricing Shay Assad said in an interview.

“That wasn’t a surprise to us because we evaluated the contracts and we have properly budgeted for it,” Assad said.

The Pentagon evaluated the Boeing bid with the understanding it was “possible” the ceiling would be breached, Assad said.

Now, Boeing has told the Pentagon it expects to exceed the ceiling, Assad said.

“We will have to see how they actually perform but that’s what they’ve informed us of.”

But hey, oo-rah, it's a 'murrkan product for the 'murrkan 'warfighter' - so that's OK then....:\

[typerated]

UK's Voyager tanker to start Typhoon trials in October (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2011/07/19/359598/uks-voyager-tanker-to-start-typhoon-trials-in-october.html)

While Boeing are trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear the RAF is about to start tanking trials with something much more capable.

Shame it is a very expensive contract though.

[Flyt3est]

ORAC - I think Boeing probably hope to make their money back on the support contract......

Nail.. Head.. Hit.

The support section of this contract is hideously open to never ending and spiralling costs.. The money that Boeing will lose on the Development aircraft will be a drop in the ocean compared to the profit Boeing will make on through life support. American taxpayers, you have an American plane, now empty your wallets because you sure as hell are going to pay for it.. :ugh:

[BEagle]

American taxpayers, you have an American plane, now empty your wallets because you sure as hell are going to pay for it..

If the 'murrkan debt crisis isn't addressed sharpish, those wallets are going to be pretty empty....:(

[airsound]

Just seen this - it seems to add another layer of unpleasantness to the whole sorry saga.

(My bold)

Boeing to exit struggling Wichita cluster by 2014

By: Stephen Trimble (http://www.flightglobal.com/landingpage/stephen%20trimble.html) Washington DC
07:25 4 Jan 2012
Source: http://www.flightglobal.com/images/articlesources/flightinternational.png (http://www.qssweb.co.uk/rbpsubs/default.aspx?title=fin&entry=new&subtype=a&prom=1469)
Boeing today announced the closure of all defence and space operations in Wichita, Kansas, within two years, a decision instantly criticised by local politicans as an act of betrayal.

Boeing decided to close its 82-year-old Wichita base and lay-off or transfer 2,160 employees after a "thorough study" launched in the third quarter last year. The study showed that Boeing's aircraft repair and upgrade work in Wichita was no longer competitive and should be merged with San Antonio, said Mark Bass, a Boeing vice president.

Over the next two years, Boeing will transfer Wichita's three major programmes - KC-46A tankers, B-52H bombers and executive military aircraft - to other sites. A portion of the engineering workforce on the bombers and executive transports will move to Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. Meanwhile, some of the machinists will be transferred to San Antonio.

But the most controversial move was Boeing's decision to transfer the work of finishing the KC-46A from Wichita to the Seattle area. Only a few years ago, Boeing enticed Kansas' elected officials to support the company's bid for the US Air Force tanker contract with promises of planting thousands of jobs in Wichita.
"It is a confession that it will not honor its commitment to Kansas," said Representative Mike Pompeo. "Boeing's statement confirms that it will indeed break years and years of promises."

Boeing emphasised that despite the closure of dedicated facilities in Wichita the company will still spend heavily on its Kansas supply chain. Last year, the company invested more than $3.2 billion on local companies.

But that did not satisfy state and local elected officials.
"Do not be fooled by Boeing's announcement that it will continue to rely on sub-supplier work in Kansas," Pompeo said. "That work in no way substitutes for the decade of promises made by [Boeing] with regard to defense work on the KC-46A tanker at the Boeing-Wichita facility."

A few years, Boeing's pledge to finish KC-46As in Wichita was a timely boost to the city's crippled aviation cluster, which promotes itself as the "air capital of the world".

airsound

[ORAC]

Singapore Issues RFI For Six Tankers (http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_generic.jsp?channel=defense&id=news/asd/2012/02/22/02.xml&headline=Singapore Issues RFI For Six Tankers)

Singapore – Singapore has moved ahead with plans to order aerial refueling tankers to replace its Boeing KC-135Rs.

Industry sources say Singapore has issued a request for information (RFI) for six tankers. One source says a request for proposals (RFP) may be issued by midyear.

The Southeast Asian nation has four Boeing KC-135R aerial refueling tankers, the first of which the island nation received in late 1999. These aircraft are in fact A-model KC-135s that Boeing upgraded to R-model by re-engining the aircraft with new CFM International CFM-56 power plants.

Industry sources say new aerial refueling tankers are a top priority for the Singapore Air Force, which has been complaining about the cost and difficulty involved in maintaining the KC-135R. This tanker is based on the Boeing 707 commercial platform.

One source says the reason Singapore’s KC-135Rs may be difficult and costly to maintain is because the aircraft are a lower block standard than the U.S. Air Force’s.

At the recent Singapore Airshow, Airbus Military displayed a U.K. Royal Air Force A330MRTT. Israel Aircraft Industries was also at the show promoting its 767 Multi-Mission Tanker Transport, and Boeing was promoting its KC-46 aerial refueling tanker.

Boeing would ordinarily be the front runner in the competition because of Singapore’s close ties with the U.S. But the KC-46 is still in development. Boeing is already committed to deliver 18 KC-46As to the U.S. Air Force by 2017, leaving no early delivery slots for foreign customers. The earliest Boeing can delivery KC-46s to international customers is 2018, and that may be too late for Singapore.

[BEagle]

Quite an unusual photo on the Airbus press site:

It's copyright, so see Airbus Military A330 MRTTs fly in formation | Airbus Press release (http://www.airbus.com/presscentre/pressreleases/press-release-detail/detail/airbus-military-a330-mrtts-fly-in-formation/)

Hopefully 10 Sqn might be able to put up rather a better formation one of these days? But no prodding or being poked by the boom though....:\

[ORAC]

It would be handy for the Singapore bid as well as for India...

DefenseNews: Sixth Tanker for Australia? (http://www.defensenews.com/article/20120301/DEFREG03/303010010/Sixth-Tanker-Australia-?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE)

MELBOURNE — At the recent Singapore Airshow, Airbus Military Chief Domingo Ureña Raso revealed his company has submitted a proposal for a sixth KC-30 Multi Role Tanker Transport to the Australian government. Australia has four KC-30As and will take delivery of its fifth, and last, later this year. Speaking with Australian journalists at the show, Ureña said the offer was made in January, but there had yet to be a response from the commonwealth. “We have made the unsolicited offer at a very attractive price for the Australian government,” Ureña said.

The matter is to be discussed at the Australian government’s National Security Council meeting in April.

Four of Australia’s aircraft have been converted locally by Qantas Defence Services (QDS) and the completion of the last aircraft in June will likely result in the loss of jobs and skills at its Brisbane facility. Airbus Military was hopeful of winning an order for at least six aircraft for the Indian Air Force, but the Indian government’s requirement for early delivery means it may not be possible to set up an in-country conversion line in time. With Airbus’ other conversion facilities also fully booked in the near-term, Ureña said the sixth aircraft for Australia would provide continuity for the Brisbane facility until it was able to begin work on some of the Indian aircraft, should Airbus Military win the competition. “Although the intellectual property remains with Qantas Defence Services, it will be very expensive to ramp the workforce up again,” said Scott Harris, Head of QDS. “A sixth aircraft would provide a degree of continuity in the medium term.”

Ureña said one idea was to use one of the two airframes built for the failed U.S. KC-X bid, due to their similar age, but should the proposal be accepted it will now likely be based on a new-build aircraft.

[BEagle]

Oh dear, oh dear - it seems that Ol' Bubba Boeing's KC-46A Frankentanker ain't doin' so good:

From Reuters:

Boeing KC-46 tanker may be delayed -GAO report | Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/03/27/boeing-tanker-idUSL2E8EQJ1720120327?feedType=RSS&feedName=marketsNews)

It also raised concerns about the plane's weight, which is already near its limit....

An overweight American? Whatever next. But if the weight issue is indeed as serious as it sounds, it may limit the ZFW and/or max fuel capability. Would the Frankentanker then be able to meet its payload / range figures...:hmm:

Should've gone to Airbus, Uncle Spam! KC-45A - you know it makes sense!!

Mind you, if I was the President, I'd say to Ol' Bubba "Your ass, my office, now". "43 years ago we managed to put men on the moon and yet you're telling me you cannot even build something as simple as an air refueling tanker within budget, time and even weight constraints? YGBSM - now get it sorted. The government won't be paying a dime over the agreed price, so if you want to stay in business you'd better get over to the factories and start kicking backsides!". "Are you still here?"........

[cornish-stormrider]

Beags - well said, that one quote has cheered up a positively ****e day.

[Doctor Cruces]

having read this thread, I am reminded of a conclusion I came to many years ago whilst working at one of the RAF bombing ranges, Holbeach to be exact.

For the spams, being in the game is not enough. They will lie, cheat, make false promises and give enormous backhanders to WIN.

The number of occasions we had telephone calls from so called "Officers and Gentlemen" offering us beer, stickers, badges, their younger sister's virginity (see false promises, above) or anything else we could think of so that we would change a bomb score from "You missed by HOW much?" to an acceptable score were numerous.

Given that lots of people in politics and the aerospace industry over there started in the military is anyone really surprised at these developments? I'm surely not.

:ugh::\

[ftrplt]

Should've gone to Airbus, Uncle Spam! KC-45A - you know it makes sense!!

would be funny except Airbus Military aren't exactly kicking a lot of goals with KC30

[BEagle]

Doctor Cruces, I'm frankly astonished that anyone would try to cheat in the manner you describe.

I thought that the USAF followed the much-vaunted 'Honor Code' - "We Will Not Lie, Steal Or Cheat, Nor Tolerate Among Us Anyone Who Does"

ftrplt, sorry to hear that you're having issues with the KC-30A.

[Caspian237]

Meanwhile the Pentagon reneges on a contract signed with a Brazilian aircraft manufacturer to provide 20 light aircraft for the fledgling Afghan airforce. This follows a legal challenge from a rival US company. Now the bidding process has been restarted

U.S. to Reopen Bidding on Troubled Afghan Aircraft Deal | Defense News | defensenews.com (http://www.defensenews.com/article/20120323/DEFREG02/303230005/U-S-Reopen-Bidding-Troubled-Afghan-Aircraft-Deal)

Quite small fry in comparison to the KC-X competition but with eerily similiar themes. This time however the Brazilian government have a major bargaining chip in that they are currently shopping for new combat aircraft, with Boeing's Super Hornet in the running along with Dassault and Saab.

[Doctor Cruces]

Ah, but Beags, they didn't see it as cheating, just as a way to prevent a check ride with an instructor!!!
Just like Jim Kirk in "Star Trek". Fixing the paramaters of the Kobyashi Maru test at Starfleet acadamy wasn't cheating, it was merely making it more likely that you would win. It's seen as noble and worthy of honour and great reward, hence his being promoted from Cadet straight to Captain of the Enterprise without going through all the annoying in between bits.

Sort of levelling their end of the playing field whilst putting a one in three slope on the other end. It's deep in the spam psyche (it HAS to be if it's made "Star Trek") and so they will see nothing wrong in it. Therefore their code of honour will not be sullied!

Simples

:)

[500N]

"Therefore their code of honour will not be sullied!"

Maybe not but fudging the bombing scores at Holbeach might get them a tick
in the box but what happens when they need to drop real bombs close to their own troops - and they are not accurate ?

Maybe that's why LGB were designed !

[Doctor Cruces]

That was kinda my point, 500. We didn't, by the way!
:ok:

[ORAC]

Defense News: Sequestration Threatens Tanker Deal: USAF Official (http://www.defensenews.com/article/20120918/DEFREG02/309180010/Sequestration-Threatens-Tanker-Deal-USAF-Official?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE)

The U.S. Air Force might have to cancel its contract with Boeing to buy refueling tankers if Congress fails to modify a law mandating federal spending cuts before January, according to a senior service official. The announcement that the Pentagon might have to cancel the KC-46 contract and renegotiate a multibillion-dollar deal with Boeing is one of the most direct examples of how those budget reductions, know as sequestration, would impact the military.

“I don’t want to break my contract and I’m fearful sequestration may force me to do that,” Maj Gen John Thompson, tanker program executive officer and KC-46 program director, said during a Sept. 18 briefing with reporters at an Air Force Association-sponsored conference in National Harbor, Md. Since the KC-46 contract award in February 2011, the Air Force has touted its ability to sign a fixed-price development contract for the initial batch of tankers, which are part of a 179-aircraft buy.

“If I have to break my fixed-price contract, then I stand the potential to lose out on some of the great things that we put in this vehicle up front,” Thompson said...........

[cornish-stormrider]

Shirley that would be "if I break this contract I (actually meaning himself) will lose that huge job and "unexpected performance bonus" shortly after moving from customer to supplier...........

and I bet there is not a single "contract" to support this.
Ducking corruption - it stinks......and the price keeps spiralling northwards....
criminal isn't it.

[ORAC]

Or rather,

"I break this contract where Boeing is going to lose millions having underbid.... and they end up with a new contract which rapes the taxpayer just like they intended in the original 767 contract...

Don't ya just love the political-industrial complex???????

[brickhistory]

I know I won't defeat that "the fix is in" mentality, but the fact is that if sequestration - a political budgetary failing foisted upon all of us Americans - hits, the tanker contract will be only the poster boy for broken contracts.

No doubt to be let again later at higher prices.

This is another way the DoD is trying to let Congress and the President that their failure to enact budgets in the previous three, nearly four now, years, is coming home to roost come 1 Jan 13. And applying none too subtle pressure to pull their fingers out.

And, if a defense-industrial complex is going to get my tax dollars, I'd rather it be Boeing.

Also, those stories I've been regaled with by former/retired FAA and RAF aircrew about "bending the rules" in order to defeat a F-XX, or the "good show" bomb score due to creative TTPs is all in good fun, but the dastardly Yanks only cheat?

Riiiight...

[GreenKnight121]

BAe>Saudi bribery>prosecution squelched amid claims of "national Security Interest" (more bribes to the highest levels of HMG)>UK posters here happy with and defending that decision (look up the threads).

[BEagle]

Not me, old horseman!

[cornish-stormrider]

nor me - integrity above all in business.....