BALPA and BA in court...

[dwshimoda]

BBC News - BA pilot holiday pay row lands in court (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8532090.stm)

Can't help wondering if there are bigger fish to fry / other issues to deal with at the moment.

Discuss...

[Basil]

The world doesn't stop for BASSA dontchaknow :ok:

VG article by beeb:

BBC News - BA pilot holiday pay row lands in court (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8532090.stm)
British Airways is due in court to fight a union's attempt to change its policy on holiday pay for pilots.

Pilots' union Balpa has gone to the Supreme Court to argue that total pay - including allowances - must be used in the calculation, not just basic salary.

Pilots receive a basic salary, as well as allowances for flying time, night flying and time away from base.

British Airways uses the basic salary to calculate pilots' holiday pay. The union argues it should be based on total pay, including allowances.

The pilots' union Balpa, says that Working Time Regulations set out how holiday pay should be calculated - as an average of the last 12 weeks' pay.

But those regulations do not apply to the airline industry, which is covered by the Civil Aviation Working Time Regulations. The union argues these don't specify how holiday pay should be calculated.

And it is not just BA which will be affected by the union's stance.

"We have tribunals lodged against Virgin, BMI, Easyjet and Cityflyer," said Balpa general secretary Jim McAuslan.

"We are also making the case that in the UK, the civil aviation regulations should be amended to give workers in our industry the same right to proper holiday pay that everyone else gets."

Four years ago the union won an employment tribunal on the issue, but the case eventually moved to the Court of Appeal which backed BA's side of the argument.

Now the new Supreme Court is being asked for its ruling.

The case will also affect cabin crew holiday pay. In total about 3,000 BA pilots and 12,000 cabin crew could each get an average of £600 a year extra. That would cost BA about £9m.

Say "Thank you." nicely, BASSA.

[towser]

That'll be another reason tax has gone up on flight pay then.

[Cirrus_Clouds]

"BA - the worlds favourite airline" .... Makes you wonder if this applies any more, obviously the pilots, crew and unions don't think so! lol

Is BA's salary to staff still higher than other airlines after these recent issues/changes?

[strikemaster82]

This applies to several airlines and has been going on some while (5 years)

Cirrus clouds, are you actually acquainted with the detail? It would seem not from the tone of your posting.

dwshimoda: presumably the same for you, as your 'bigger fish to fry' comment also suggests a lack of knowledge of the facts.

It was BA (at the last restructuring) who wanted pilots to have a variable element to their pay and this has an impact on their holiday pay. This has been challenged and won in the tribunal and BA have appealed.

Many readers of this thread will receive holiday pay which is the same as their normal pay. BALPA has asked for the same for its members, that's all.

[Basil]

Pay attention at the back! :)
"We have tribunals lodged against Virgin, BMI, Easyjet and Cityflyer," said Balpa general secretary Jim McAuslan.

[oapilot]

Council Van...

Don't get the peeps at BALPA too excited - the 1% is based on salary, not allowances, so they won't see a penny. Unless they change the rules and decide that "total pay - including allowances - must be used in the calculation" of subs too. :eek:

The tax man will be getting excited though - difficult to justify a tax free element within duty pay to cover costs away from home on employers business when you're actually not on duty, just away from home sipping pina coladas by the pool on your own business!

Still, good luck to the boys and girls, hope you get it, we could all do with a pay rise, by whatever means it comes :}

oap

[Dreamshiner]

As a business decision it makes good sense as it keeps their core revenue streams happy with their increased salary and perception that BALPA is working hard for them.

The union has a larger remit to the whole flying community however and there are equal of greater priorities affecting aviation in general in the country that should be addressed by them on at least an equal footing in terms of time, expense and effort.

Just want to know what cataclysmic event would result in all of us showing universal unity, do we need an alien invasion like in Independence Day? Will it continue to only be interest in our own little BALPA franchises.

[dwshimoda]

dwshimoda: presumably the same for you, as your 'bigger fish to fry' comment also suggests a lack of knowledge of the facts

As per the various other threads running at the minute, I would suggest things like pay to fly are slightly more important than this. Just my opinion. Look at the BALPA vote that is running and you will see many people are disillusioned with them.

At a time when the industry is sinking, I merely suggest that there are much better cases that could be fought to benefit the pilot community at large.

Many readers of this thread will receive holiday pay which is the same as their normal pay. BALPA has asked for the same for its members, that's all.

Get real - it's called Flight Pay for a reason - your are flying, and therefore need the allowances. Getting Flight Pay when on holiday will have all sorts of implications - we have enough problems with the Tax Man looking at our allowances now, all we need is BALPA winning a small victory for its select band of brothers before the Tax Man looks at it and screws the rest of us.

"We have tribunals lodged against Virgin, BMI, Easyjet and Cityflyer," said Balpa general secretary Jim McAuslan.

So they'll take Easy to tribunal over this, but turn a blind eye to pay to fly and other schemes? BALAP looking after the privilidged few.

Strikemaster: Without going into too much detail, I, and many of my colleagues, have been forced to take a less than ideal contract. This is due to many things, such as the recession, the supply of cheap pilots who will pay to fly, and any number of other issues. To be honest, I really couldn't give a rat's **** about BA pilots getting an extra £600 a year holiday pay - I'd rather try and raise the industry's T's & C's as a whole.

I also think it's terrible timing, and sends out a bad message.

Just my opinion.

[DADDY-OH!]

dwshimoda

Good points well made!

Of course to BA pilots, there is ONLY BA & no other airline really matters...


... until they retire from BA at 55-60, get their index linked, final salary pensions, usually at least £70K/year & THEN decide to go & work for other airlines earning a salary, often more than if not as much as their pension income, thereby depriving some hard working, underpaid F/O a chance of advancement to the left seat, promotion & more money. But the ex-BA guys appeasement & willingness to accept inferior T's & C's in their 'new' airlines also erodes the T's & C's for everyone in that airline. How much money is ENOUGH for these 'pensioners'???

I know of 1 BA-retiree who was working for a Lo-Cost carrier here in the UK, who has had to leave working for the company because his combined pension & salary income exceeds the Governments' new £150K/50% Income Tax Band. My heart bleeds for him & if any BA'ers or ex-BA'ers out there are looking for sympathy, they'll find it between 'sh*t' & 'syphilis' in the Oxford English Dictionary.

As much as I despise Labour, after seeing the effect of a policy that's driving out the Snouted Ones, I'd be happy for the Government to drop the threshold to £100K/50%. Let's see how desperate, airlines are to recruit crews on decent T's & C's once the ex-BA 'Snouts in Troughs' Brigade decide it isn't worth it & hang up their wings for good.

BA'ers getting an extra £600/year & the cost of legally pursuing the claim through the courts & BALPA, I can't help thinking that those funds would be better spent pursuing injustices that help the many & not just the few.

:ok:

[BusyB]

dwshimoda,

I don't work for BA but its quite clear you don't understand this. These are not allowances for meals but Flying Hour Duty Pay. Its the same in Cathay and many other airlines where the employer is trying to reduce its liablility by not including this for holiday pay purposes which is illegal. By making a proportion of your pay variable they reduce their labour costs when there isn't so much work but they shouldn't stop calculating holiday pay on your average earnings.:ok:

[dwshimoda]

Busy B,

You are missing a much bigger point:

BALPA is fighting a tiny, miniscule battle and making a big thing of it, whilst ignoring the terrible erosion of T's & C's across the board in the UK.

As for what other airlines in other countries do, I ask you this: Does the UK HMRC accept that you should get a tax free payment for whilst you are on holiday?

Do other industries where overtime is a key component of overall pay include this in holiday pay?

If they win this, it will be a minor hollow victory that within a few years will cost the rest of us as HMRC again look into our flying allowances and decide they are too generous. My Flying hour duty pay - which unlike you quote absolutely IS to pay for meals as we don't get crew food is currently tax free unlike my sector pay. The HMRC have looked into this several times at several airlines, and all BALPA will succeed in doing is winning a minor fight before the battle is lost as HMRC tax duty pay. That £600 a year will be lost in an instant.

Why waste time and money on this when airlines such as Easy are currently employed in some of the most despicable employment practices going, perhaps it's too difficult an issue for BALPA, and ignorance is, as they say and when you are not at 36,000 ft, bliss.

[hunterboy]

If I could just point out that "BALPA" consists of individual company councils. If there is something you are unhappy with, you need to be working through your company councils.
Nobody can expect other airline councils to be improving T&C's in your company. Is it strange to expect the BA BALPA company council to be looking out for BA pilots?
As far as I know, the central facilities at BALPA are there for all company councils to use.
In this particular case, BALPA is fighting for holiday pay for all UK pilots.




(In the interests of fairness, I do work for BA and am an ex-BALPA rep.)

[elected rep]

We're not talking about overtime payments, just pay accrued during normal, contracted hours.

I would say every CC would want sector pay/hourly flight pay to be paid during leave periods, however the picture for allowances would require more careful thought. In most airlines, allowances are partly taxed, so a calculation must be made to see what delivers the best net financial position bearing in mind the potential tax issues.

Be under no illusion, the days of tax free allowances paid at a rate any higher than the actual expense incurred are rapidly coming to an end, BA judgement or no BA judgment.

As for pay to fly stuff, of course, that is a far bigger issue but separate issue, however pilots in airlines such as easyJet where as I understand it a significant proportion of remuneration is activity based, will have perhaps the most to gain.

This issue is not just about BA and could have a positive outcome for most if not all UK pilots.

Fingers crossed the judgment goes BALPA's way.

[BusyB]

dwshimoda,

If your pay is for your work it qualifies for holiday pay. If it is for meals whilst away from base it is an allowance (whatever your company calls it) and does not qualify.

I suspect all you are interested in is having a go at BA crews. Balpa does what its members on each council ask for if they are legally correct. Why would an association not defend legal rights?

I'm finished here.:ugh:

[Dreamshiner]

Don't suppose you have a number for the CC for the unemployed members hunterboy?

I asked down at my local DHS but they looked at me blankly and hit the "not a labourer, bum, benefit cheat, van driver, gardener, mechanic button".

I think the issues for a lot reading this is there is a great number of current members of BALPA and former members who feel disenfranchised from the body who are supposed to look after their best interests.

The issue isn't the union's stance, in the good times this would be welcomed, just at present, with the demise/belt tightening of a number of airlines (XL, Zoom, GSM, Silverjet, Eos, Maxjet, Oasis HK) and as there is wider uptake of P2F this current endeavour is met with resignation.

A number of us belong to a recently swollen group are not fortunate enough to work for a company with a robust BALPA chapter. Many feel there is a much more important issue(s) to be taken on.

The quicker all pilots regardless of their status or role within a range of airlines recognise that erosion from the base will ultimately filter up to the top the better.

[dwshimoda]

Busy B:

I have no issue with BA crew, or any other crew - worldwide.

Unlike many, I wish we were a unified workforce who stood together and fought together. But we are not. And currently, BALPA looks (predominantly) after BA (what have they done about pay to fly in Easy?) and no one else. I have not ever seen any evidence to the contrary.

They are free to come onto this forum at any time to defend themselves, or promote themselves and therefore recruit new members, as has been pointed out on other threads but they choose not to. Similarly, I have seen nothing from them that indicates that if I should contribute to their fund, they will then fight for the rights of all UK commercial pilots.

Argue all you like that it is about individual CC representation, but until BALPA shows it has a set of balls, is prepared to back pilots in all organisations, then they are a 70's throwback that exists to look after itself, its precious few, and not the masses. That sucks.

I'm finished here. Not a great response for a debate really is it? More: "I'm right, nah nah not listening..."

Dreamshiner sums it up perfectly for me, particularly his/her 4th & 5th paragraphs.

elected rep:

Please explain to me how flight pay should be paid when you are on leave and therefore not flying? There is a very specific reason for this pay, and if you aren't flying, why should you be paid it?

hunterboy:

we don't have BALPA representation in my airline, and to be honest, genuinely honest, I don't know if this is a good or a bad thing.

Edited to add: Had a few glasses of wine as it is my wife's birthday - I'll re-look at this tomorrow to ensure it is what I truly mean, but many a true word said after a glass or two... :ok:

[elected rep]

dwshimoda - in answer to your question, in my layman's understanding of the law, it entitles employees to annual leave paid at their full rate of pay.

Imagine you're a supermarket worker, paid by the hour to stack shelves (let's call it stack pay), how would you ever get paid holiday if you were only ever paid for the hours you were putting the cans on the shelves?

Whatever elements of pay accrued in their contracted hours are labelled, be it flight pay, breathing pay, or anything else, they go to make up an individual's full pay and BALPA's case is these should be paid during periods of leave.

Don't get hung up on the fact that it's BA that BALPA has chosen to challenge on this point - it could have picked any one of at least half a dozen UK airlines I can think of. The majority of UK pilots stand to benefit if BALPA wins this.

PS Please cut the nonsense about BALPA only looking after BA pilots. Much time, effort and funds is expended by the association my airline, and it's actually quite insulting to hear this sort of rubbish. BALPA has dropped the ball on the pay-to-fly stuff, but to be honest it's more a reflection of it's members, who are finally waking up to the threat this poses to all of us.

[dwshimoda]

I don't know if you fly, or how familiar you are, so forgive me if I make assumptions.

Our flight pay or duty pay, call it what you will, is specifically for when we are away from home / base. We get an annual salary (which in your analogy a shelf stacker would not) which bye and large is pretty good. Flight pay is on top of this, as is sector pay.

I would love it to be statutory, but it isn't. And being a realist, a) from a different walk of life originally, and b) married to someone who works in a different industry: in the real world it is inconceivable to be paid an allowance for when you actually aren't at work and are at home! It's almost as bad as our esteemed MP's have been claiming expenses!

Apologies if you do fly, and therefore understand flight pay but if you aren't, then butt out until you understand it.

PS Please cut the nonsense about BALPA only looking after BA pilots. Much time, effort and funds is expended by the association my airline, and it's actually quite insulting to hear this sort of rubbish. BALPA has dropped the ball on the pay-to-fly stuff, but to be honest it's more a reflection of it's members, who are finally waking up to the threat this poses to all of us.

Bollocks. Look at Dreamshiners poll, and then understand how most of the workforce truly feel about BALPA. Perhaps your username gives you away?

Defend BALPA as much as you like - they are looking the other way deliberately as the industry turns to ****. Never has "I'm alright Jack" been more appropriate.

Problem with this? Then BALPA, come and defend yourself and turn all us disillusioned pilots into card carrying members. We want to be, but whilst you have no balls and couldn't give a **** about us, why would we?

Come on, talk to us!

[elected rep]

Look, I was trying to be informative and explain the background to the issue.

My shelf stacker analogy has it's limitations, however the principle stands, i.e. the proposition is an employee is entitled to holiday at his normal rate of pay however it's ascribed, be it by flying a certain number of sectors, punching out a certain quantity of widgets or spending a certain number of hours placing cans of beans on shelves.

You have nothing to fear from this case and might actually see the courts help your terms and conditions for a change.

EDIT: I've just read your little rant. We're talking here about holiday pay. I'm not here to defend BALPA. That's not for me to do. By your accusation that BALPA is only about British Airways you belittle all the work myself and my colleagues do in our non-BA airline for the benefit of our colleagues. Trust me, we do make a difference. On countless occasions outcomes for individuals or the whole workforce would be different if the management got their way.

I would point out this work is largely done in our own time and without remuneration, and is on top of flying a more or less full roster.

If you and your ilk truly want to change the world, try getting off your fat, lazy, offish arses and get involved for a change. Sitting at home, ranting away on an anonymous internet bulletin board doesn't count.

[Dreamshiner]

I'm a he, however it could all different if I wandered into the wrong part of town during my last BKK layover.

If I did, would that make me a modern day suffraget in my stance to get better recognition for the unemployed and those finishing training with our union?

[D O Guerrero]

The shelf stacker analogy has limitations? It doesn't work (or stack up) at all...
I worked in a supermarket in times gone by and I only got paid for what I did. I had no pay whatsoever when I wasn't working and this is most definitely the norm in the supermarkets. The situation at BA is exceptionally fair as regards pay in the market at the moment. Many airlines pay nothing whatsoever to pilots when they're not working (including mine).
This claim is ludicrous and can only contribute to the already clown-like image of BALPA. If this really is the best they can do, I despair.

[dwshimoda]

If you and your ilk truly want to change the world, try getting off your fat, lazy, offish arses and get involved for a change. Sitting at home, ranting away on an anonymous internet bulletin board doesn't count.

I can't remember the statistics on how many posts it takes before a forum descends to personal attacks, but congratulations on achieving it.

EDIT: I've just read your little rant. We're talking here about holiday pay.

yes, we are, so I say again: explain to me why you should be paid flying pay for being on holiday?

Your blinkered thinking and inability to understand this is similar only to BASSA's stupidity with their current action with BA.

If you and your ilk truly want to change the world, try getting off your fat, lazy, offish arses and get involved for a change. Sitting at home, ranting away on an anonymous internet bulletin board doesn't count

So explain to me how this action will help me, or more specifically, how it will stop pay to fly heroes, 7/5 contracts, pay by the hour, etc?

Perhaps you should get of your fat, lazy, offish arse and do something that actually makes a difference instead of spouting ill-informed and billious crap on an anonymous internet bulletin board

[elected rep]

:rolleyes:

[dwshimoda]

Yep - that about sums it up - head in the sand and ignore the real world. Well done. You must be an awesome rep in action.

[dwshimoda]

I dare you!

[Basil]

dwshimoda,
Get real - it's called Flight Pay for a reason - your are flying, and therefore need the allowances.
The Flight Pay referred to is NOT meal allowances which are taxed at a reduced rate.
AFAIK/can remember, when Flight Pay was referred to as Long Range Premium, it IS part of salary and is taxed at the full rate.

The case is paid for by BALPA on behalf of its members of several airlines but a win will also benefit cabin crew.

If anyone does not understand the history of Flight Pay then a Professional Pilots' website is not the place for them to comment.

[Bruce Wayne]

If you and your ilk truly want to change the world, try getting off your fat, lazy, offish arses and get involved for a change. Sitting at home, ranting away on an anonymous internet bulletin board doesn't count.


elected rep, what you fail to understand is that some of us ARE trying to seek improvements in this industry. That's the industry as a whole, not just one specific operation.

This consistent line that 'You' are BALPA, BALPA is 'You' is bollox. There have been significant adjustments within the industry on a company basis as well as legislative basis, both on a national and industry level that BALPA has ignored. Yet, attempting to open discourse into specific situations are flatly ignored. So, quite simply BALPA's members are not BALPA, BALPA selects what it will fight for its own benefit, not mine or the other 69.42% (per dreamshiner's poll) that are dissatisfied with BALPA's performance.

Yet to expend resources and attention to fight such a minor issue, which in terms of the state of the industry is not even a footnote and ignore more pressing issues is, well insulting.

As for try getting off your fat, lazy, offish arses and get involved for a change

Thats about enough of a reason never to see my BALPA membership renewed again this side of the arrival of the horsemen of the Apocalypse and sums up the attitude of BALPA and it's elected reps toward the industry as a whole and you can stick that attitude where the sun doesn't shine.

:*

[Looker]

My Company makes holiday payments to the CAs based on average on board sales commission. This holiday pay is then spread over the year and paid as a monthly addition to basic pay - for a SCM this could be an extra £60 per month.

Guess how much holiday pay the pilots accrue from their sector pay?

Zero

Where is the logic in this?

Whilst I have considerable sympathy with those who want BALPA to do something now about the pay to fly scandal - to be fair to BALPA this court case is the culmination of a dispute that occurred quite a few years ago.

Lets hope we get a positive result.

[Bruce Wayne]

Whilst I have considerable sympathy with those who want BALPA to do something now about the pay to fly scandal - to be fair to BALPA this court case is the culmination of a dispute that occurred quite a few years ago.


So the pay to fly issue may or may not be challenged by BALPA in quite a few years time then ?

[distressedofdorset]

My understanding (and likely to be highly incorrect) is that if flight duty pay is paid at a reduced tax rate it is because it is used for living allowences (e.g. food + drink) that would normally be available to the crew member at home but is not due to the nature of the jobs.

I'm not sure if commission is covered under these rules or not.

Either way I wish them luck as if it happens to one, it will filter down for all.

[shortleg]

So the pay to fly issue may or may not be challenged by BALPA in quite a few years time then ?


I think what they are trying to say is that difficult issues take a while to reach resolution. The holiday pay claim was started some time ago and is now nearing the end. It is possible, I'm sure, to see one item through to it's conclusion while taking action on something else e.g. pay to fly.

[Bruce Wayne]

It is possible, I'm sure, to see one item through to it's conclusion while taking action on something else e.g. pay to fly.


Indeed.

And what is BALPA's position on current issues that cut straight to the nub of T&C's in carriers that are non-BA ?

The only response to date is that "we are having meetings" about specific issues, yet what is the official stance on these issues ? what are these meeting discussing, what is the objective ?

As for the 'You are BALPA, BALPA is You' line, then why are BALPA treating those are actively concerned and making noise for action being treated like mushrooms (fed sh!t and kept in the dark) on theses questions are what the 'meetings' objectives are and what the policies are..

BALPA presents itself as non company specific, yet when the fertiliser is seriously lodged in the air conditioning over an issue that seriously affect the degradation of T&C's in the pilot community the silence is deafening, except for a mere footnote of an issue in respect of additional allowances while on holiday.

Perhaps, the understanding of why BALPA is considered more appropriate for BA crews than non-BA crews and why many in this industry, who are non BA are foaming at the mouth.

See threads on BALPA poll and easyjet management taking the p!ss

These threads contains posts concerning the dissatisfaction of BALPA's performance in these issues and posts from others who are time on type people who cannot get a look in at a flight deck position because they have time on type and are departing this country for jobs overseas.

But hey ho, maybe in a few years, BALPA may/may not have got around to challenging the problem which currently should have already been addressed and has been left to fester.

As one poster here has pointed out the BALPA win on the issue they are going to court with BA will likely turn into a Pyhrric victory for pilots as the tax man, who already has an active interest in the scrutiny of taxation/benefits of pilots will have another reason to evaluate the taxation of allowances to pilots.

[dwshimoda]

Having been contacted directly by a very helpful BA Skipper today, I now fully understand the terms of this specific Flight Pay, and why it is correct under these circumstances for BALPA to be fighting for it. I still think the following points are still valid:

1) It is terrible timing - I understand now that this is the culmination of several years work, but the timing is appalling. However this is due to the speed that the courts and appeals work, so it's unfair to blame BALPA or anyone else for that.

2) "Flight Pay" has different meanings from airline to airline. At BA it is very different to where I work, and so you cannot compare the two. (Basil: If anyone does not understand the history of Flight Pay then a Professional Pilots' website is not the place for them to comment. This therefore applies to you also then, so maybe you would like to retract your words?

3) Getting back to the origin of the thread, I still think that whilst may be a small victory, there are many, many other issues BALPA should be fighting, and with much more teeth. Seeing this happen would help unite us as a workforce, and God forbid, perhaps we might come together and really take the piss poor management to task that is introducing the biggest threats to this great profession. BALPA need to understand this to get people to engage with them. Over 60% are disillusioned according to the poll running on another thread.

Anyway, my thanks to Tim at BA for giving me the full details.

DW.

(ps, flew out on BA today to Prague for a long weekend - uneventful flight, but great Cabin Crew as always - please don't let BASSA destroy your career)

[411A]

...please don't let BASSA destroy your career)

If the CC have their way, BA will be dead in the water, operations-wise.
New faces should have been hired a very long time ago.:rolleyes:

[ToneTheWone]

I don't know the exact details of the case so can't say too much, but I'd like to make a couple of points.

A couple of years ago I accepted a job as an FO for a bizjet company. The package was made up of a lowish basic salary plus reasonable flight pay (fully taxed) making a total package which I was happy with. The more I flew to more the more the company earned and the more I got paid. I accepted that when I signed the contract.

The legislation passed by the government regarding holiday pay I'm sure was to protect lowly paid workers (i.e. shelf stackers) from being taken advantage of. It was never intended to benefit well paid professionals such as pilots. If the legislation was brought in whilst I was employed (sadly now been let go) it would never have occured to me to go back to the company and renegotiate my basic salary.

I don't know if MPs get an attendance allowance, but I'm sure the House of Lords do. There would be public outcry if the Lords used the legislation to claim extra holiday pay!

Does anybody know if the case has finished and what the outcome was??