RV'S

[AYD]

Why do we see so many RV7'S, RV9'S etc etc for sale that seem relatively new with only 50 to 200 hours on them.

Are they a disappointment to there owners or are there other issues ??

[j3pipercub]

Hahaha! Wait for it........ Wait for it.......

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Why do we see so many RV7'S, RV9'S etc etc for sale that seem relatively new with only 50 to 200 hours on them. Are they a disappointment to there owners or are there other issues ??

Most Retard Vehicle owners soon become disallusioned with the lack of performance of their "Pride and Joy". As you go up the RV numbers, that disappointment compounds - culminating with the RV10 !

:E:E:E:E:E:E:E:E:E

Dr :8

[Howard Hughes]

I get the feeling that after building an aircraft one is to exhausted to go flying...:E

[WhirlyMan]

In my experience with several RVs and RV owners, I think potential owners/builders are disillusioned thinking that since the RVs are so easy to build that they are also easy to fly. Which they are, given correct tuition and patience.

I know of 4 previous owners/builders who simply scared themselves silly in them, and during the building phase they tend to forget to keep flying themselves to stay current etc.

The RVs are a great bang for the buck, but some guys (particularly the ones that Vans Aircraft tend to market towards) just can't keep up with their 160 knots plus airspeed etc.

[VH-XXX]

I don't think it's just that.

Many an RV builder builds for the pleasure of building, finishes building, goes flying a bit and then sells and starts on the next kit. Aircraft builders are often not flyers at all or for that matter don't fly much.

Plus we are in somewhat harsh financial times which might explain it a little.

[Jabawocky]

Many builders are repeat offenders, and there is a good demand for second hand quality RV's. If you happen to have a shabby one of course it will be hard to sell.

The comment about hard to fly and keep up with them......could be the case with a number of folk, and those with the Tail Wheel versions need to be extra vigilant I am told, they are slippery and require better than Piper Cub skills I understand.

And we all have trouble with Tail Wheel's from time to time :E ;)

Now lets look at the statistics, with there being at last count 6600+ flying RV's, and that is the number Vans know about, so likely add 50% maybe as the number of kits sold is several times this number, its quite possible you will get several on the matket at any one time. I notice the number is far less than say Cessna's on the market.

Another point to consider is that because they can not be put online at a flying school, some folk run out of flying.....and its not viable to keep if you are not using it. This may be why after 3-6 years they are for sale.

One thing I know is barring a finnancial disaster, one RV-10 will not be on the market any time soon, because its far faster and climbs better than any V35B that we all know of around here..... :E :D

A nice wind up thread....are you the FTDK in disguise? :}

J:ok:

[Howard Hughes]

What's a tail wheel?:E

[kalavo]

The opposite of a training wheel

[Jabawocky]

They do have one weakness though..............

Every Time the FTDK gets near it he breaks something......A/P roll servo comms........flattens batteries!

They are good but not Forkie Proof!:}

J:ok:

And neither is his V35B.....although he blames all its failures on Jaba! :sad: This list is too long for just one post!

[Howard Hughes]

Batteries might last longer with a few less GPS's plugged in!:ok:

[tail wheel]

What's a tail wheel?

The ultimate in intelligent, rational, logical, knowledgeable, understanding, patient and sympathetic PPRuNer! :ok:

Oh, I forgot the good looks! :E

And here is me, a long time Lancruiser Prado driver, thinking I'd found a thread about Recreational Vehicles! :{

[CHAIRMAN]

Hey Taillie - I fly a tailskid - invented long before the wheel:D

[PyroTek]

Every Time the FTDK gets near it he breaks something......A/P roll servo comms........flattens batteries!

They are good but not Forkie Proof!:}
Seems to be reciprocated when Jaba gets near the V35B :}

[pilot2684]

80 series here :P

bloody prado drivers.

As for RV's, I think it is because they aren't ready for the repeating repairs when they put it on the deck a little too hard :P

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

because its far faster and climbs better than any V35B that we all know of around here.....

Hmmm!

Now how did it go again?

FTDK and Retard Vehicle Mk10 depart Redcliffe for Rolleston with the length of the runway between them.

About half way to Rolleston, FTDK diverts to go play with Pyro.

Here is the view from the Retard Vehicle on arrival at Rolleston!

HUtf-bWUJaI

What's that on the runway? Oh, its the FTDK ! :E

Dr :8

[ozaggie]

Good to see the vid was cut at the appropriate time Doc

[Chimbu chuckles]

Yes after playing with Pyro and his C172 I did manage to catch up with the Dr and Jaba in the Retard Vehicle just before Rolleston - I managed to get mast abeam going crosswind and called "BOUY ROOM!!" and landed first.:ok:

More low animal cunning than anything else.:E

[Jabawocky]

I think I just worked out what kind of Dr the FTDK is, look here.......

Master's and PhD Programs in Journalism — PhDs.org Graduate School Guide (http://graduate-school.phds.org/find/programs/journalism)

A Dr of selective truths, or facts in isolation.

Hmmm!

Now how did it go again?

FTDK and Retard Vehicle Mk10 depart Redcliffe for Rolleston with the length of the runway between them.

About half way to Rolleston, FTDK diverts to go play with Pyro.

Here is the view from the Retard Vehicle on arrival at Rolleston! I think a lot has been ommitted from that story :ok:



did manage to catch up with the Dr and Jaba in the Retard Vehicle just before RollestonYeah with the data log showing Manifold Pressure Retarded Vell under 19" and mostly 16 all the way in, I would expect the FTDK to catch up.

Lucky Forkie Slowed up a bit going over the Carnarvons as well!:}

J:ok:

[Howard Hughes]

But who would win in a pylon race?

I vote we chop a couple of feet of each of their wings and find out!:ok:

[PA39]

Often the actual costs of building an aircraft exceeds the estimated, and drains the bank balance. Owning an aircraft is expensive so if they are under utilised........get rid of 'em !!

[PyroTek]

Yes after playing with Pyro and his C172 I did manage to catch up with the Dr and Jaba in the Retard Vehicle just before Rolleston - I managed to get mast abeam going crosswind and called "BOUY ROOM!!" and landed first.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

Good fun indeed!

[Arnold E]

997 views, so you guys know you love RV's:E If only you could get to fly them on a regular basis. Me and Jabba have all the fun. the RV grin, Jabba knows what I'm talking about:ok::ok::ok:

[Arnold E]

By the way Mods, I believe this thread warrents a red envelope:E

[Arnold E]

Gotta love those mods, (unless ofcourse, its automatic)

[Jabawocky]

not sure about a red envelope.....it will probably get removed :eek:

As for your other observation :):O :ok:

J;)

[Curare]

New to the forum, what's a red envelope ??

[frigatebird]

Self education is essential to newbies in aviation to survive - look it up in the Threads in Forum page..

[Andy_RR]

Time to hijack this thread with gratuitous photos of RV assembly and flyage.

http://photos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs127.snc3/17434_266447357803_540947803_3540878_3673781_n.jpg

[AYD]

Looks good Andy RR what model are you building? and whats your rough estimate on a finished cost?

I have been considering building an RV but was wondering why there were quite a few for sale with low hours hence my original post.

[Andy_RR]

It's going to be an 8 - that is, without the nose-mounted trainer wheel.

As regards completion cost, I really don't want to know, but I think I'll have shelled out between $A100-120k in the end. Exchange rate plays an enormous role in completed cost. It also helps if you can get suckers to do the graft for a lot less than minimum wage - so far, I've only found one sucker and I'd be mad to talk to him!

My advice is if you want one to fly, buy a flying one. Build one only if you're smitten with the idea of building - because there's a lot of it!

[sprocket check]

My advice is if you want one to fly, buy a flying one. Build one only if you're smitten with the idea of building - because there's a lot of it!


I think this is the best advice I have seen on the subject in a while.

If one wants to fly and build he should have two aircraft...

[VH-XXX]

Owen, I heard the RV10 described as an "oversize Cherokee" by a mate of yours today! (GL)

[Jabawocky]

Andy, if its going to end up VFR and a nice job of things, $140-$150K min. Maybe about 10K less or whatever for the slow build kit in your case. IFR min $170+

Have just helped a guy cost an RV8 down to the paint and most small items, which add up quickly in the end!

Still remarkable value! :ok:

[Fred Gassit]

I'm building an 8 also, looks to be at a similar stage to Andy.
I am a realist and think it will cost 100 at the outside (with a basic panel)

I also support the view that you need to be a builder first and pilot second.

I'll also add that a supportive family is essential!

[Jabawocky]

Fred......send me your cost sheets. :eek:

All the bits you need from Vans, including a 200HP Lyc, Hartzell prop total USD$81,227.00 before you start shipping a thing, paying in AUD and then paying the GST. At present rates thats around $98K landed plus GST so $108K.

Now lets add basic panel radio transponder, some wiring, various fittings, paint and trim. I am up to $125K

Did you buy tooling? Maybe you had that already.

Sure if you picked up 95-97cents for an AUD like we did, and you do all the paint trimming wiring and a slow build, a second hand engine and prop, you might just achieve it.

More power to you!:ok:

Either way, basic or flashy they all fly the same way...with a grin ear to ear! :O

[Fred Gassit]

Got it in one, I've also been lucky with exchange and sourced powerplant locally.

The only largesse (apart from the whole idea...) I am allowing myself is overhauling the engine before installation which might easily push me over 100-if there are any skeletons in the closet.

I'm hoping not.

By the way, to anyone out there considering your options, the 10k extra for the quickbuild option is NOT money wasted!

Sure wish I had spent it........

[Arnold E]

The only problem with a quick build is the lack of corrosion protection, .i.e. no priming between mating surfaces. Mind you, there are plenty of 40 year old Cessna's still around.
Last confirmed spend on my 7 was $178k

[Fred Gassit]

Shizit!
Think I'm going to avoid this thread for a bit, Arnold- I am assuming you have some nice avionics?

[Andy_RR]

Fred......send me your cost sheets. :eek:

All the bits you need from Vans, including a 200HP Lyc, Hartzell prop total USD$81,227.00 before you start shipping a thing...

I can save you a cool USD10k Jaba by just by not asking for 200hp! An ECI kit engine will save a couple of grand extra on top of Van's OEM Lycoming pricing.

An IO-375 will give you nearly 200hp for not a lot more than Van's 180hp price, plus with a CSU, can be operated with better FC than the smaller engine.

[Cardinal Puf Puf Puf]

Here YouTube - Vans RV7 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDil1f3MqEw) is a video of a test flight I did in an RV-7 at Vans factory in Aurora, Oregon.

A great little aircraft, and it performed well with full fuel and 2 decent size blokes in it.

[KRviator]

Does anyone know the shipping costs to Aus? I've ordered the peliminary drawings to see if its something that I could do. I have a bit of time in a 6A, so just toying with the idea.
Certainly do. Prices are in US Dollars.

For an RV-9 Quickbuild,
LCL to Sydney $2,644
FCL to Sydney $3,231
LCL to Newcastle, $3,431
FCL to Newcastle $4,059

Standard Kit
LCL to Sydney $1,376 (including engine & prop)
FCL to Sydney $3,888 (including engine & prop)
+ $780-odd to Newcastle.

I haven't ordered one yet, but I will. Soon. An RV-9 (perhaps a -9A) with the Jabiru 6 in it. Might even be able to register it as a single-seat RAAus and stir up a bunch of PPruner's like old mate did with his -7...:}

[VH-XXX]

Don't put a Jabiru 6 in it !!!!!!

You'll wreck a perfectly good aircraft :ugh:

Aside from price there would be no reason to put a Jabiru engine in an RV and price alone should not be your primary deciding factor.

RV9's should have 160 HP up front with CSU, not 120 hp!

[KRviator]

Aside from price there would be no reason to put a Jabiru engine in an RV and price alone should not be your primary deciding factor.

RV9's should have 160 HP up front with CSU, not 120 hp! Cost isn't really a factor, but I can't see any real benefit in installing the biggest engine available, then swinging a constant speed prop in the type of flying I'd be doing with it. It's more maintenance intensive, less reliable (well, one more thing to keep me from flying if it breaks anyway) and a damn sight heavier than a 3300 with a wood prop.

A Jabiru 3300 with an appropriate wood prop would save perhaps 100lbs over an O-320, and several thousand dollars to boot. Of course, this then raises the question of having an overly-aft CG due to the lightweight powerplant...

For the kind of flying I'd be doing with it, a CSU and high-HP engine wouldn't provide the benefits needed to outweigh the cost. After a few hundred hours, perhaps a fully-equipped -7 or -10 would be on the cards, but for now, a nice, moderately powered -9 seems the best option.

[VH-XXX]

The Lycoming will be far more reliable than the Jabiru, probably many times over and you won't have any problems with burnt-out valves, out of round cylinders, low compressions, clogging rings, cracked heads, high oil temps and generally frustrating things that usually end up costing money, particularly in a fairly substantially sized airframe.

I question the speed that you will get out of a Jabiru 6, perhaps 120 knots and your resultant resale value if you are considering upgrading in the future as you have suggested.

[poteroo]

RV's and Engines?

Yes, if you decide to go with the Jab 3300, then you'll need to get more weight forward. Just adding weight to the 3300 engine on standard mounts seems to be counterproductive. You can get an extended engine mount from the factory, plus a set of longer cowls. The ones I've seen used for mounting the 8 cyl 5200 engine give the -9A a 'longer' nose - which actually looks well balanced. The 3300 might not need to be as long. However, with more weight forward, you'll have no balance problems and will actually be able to use the full 45 kgs allowance for baggage.

We've seen over 25 RV's built here in Albany, and there' a lot of experience with both building and flying them down here. The best combo for the -9A is definitely an 0-320,(probably the Superior clone), with fuel injection + electronic ignition + a cruise pitch metal Sensenich prop.

When you compare this to the probable performance of the Jab 3300 + wooden prop, I reckon you'll be 25kts slower - and all this for a fuel saving of about 5 LPH, (23 v 28 LPH). I base this on the fact that the 2 x -9A's flying here with 8 cyl 5200 engines are not as fast as the 0-320 engined versions, yet burn at least the same fuel.

You need to consider that the 3300 engine is only 120HP at a quite high RPM - 3300 in fact. You'd only cruise it around 2700, and at that (75% pwr) setting, you'll burn closer to 25-26 LPH. With the Bing carby - you have no control over fuel burn other than the throttle.

With a FI/EI fitted 0-320, and around 60% power, you should turn in 26-28 LPH and 150 KTAS in a -9A. With this FI+EI engine - you might consider using LOP mixture settings at the relatively low % power settings - and this has the ability to bring your fuel burn back to 20-22LPH for a probable 135-140 KTAS. (I can do 23LPH for 140KTAS with my EI/IO-360 engine).You just can't beat this for simplicity, economy and price. This would be my current choice for a -9A, and I have flown just about every model x engine combo there is

As far as I know - there are only 3-4 RV's flying in Oz with Jab 8 cyl engines fitted, but none with 6 cyl engines.

If anyone want's more info - PM me

happy days,

[Jabawocky]

What Poteroo said.........XIO320 and CSU will also protect your investment.

If you want a RV7A for a fair price, )-360 and fied pitch and VERY well built let me know, I know a bloke with one who is now building himself a tail dragger 7:ok:

And those freight costs seem a little light on there too! :ooh:

Add on just some of these, extra's like VAN'S Door to YOUR door, plus other handling costs, pest inspections if needed and so on.......GST, you will find it adds up quickly. Our total freight bill was more like $10K all up. Full Container.

J:ok:

[Arnold E]

And let us not forget all those times that you need this bit or that bit and it is only fifty bucks freight but it will save x hours of work!
It all adds up and I reckon that 10k for freight is underestimated by at least 25%.

And then there are the times you order the parts ,and then when they are on there way, you realize that you need 1 more of part x or a part you did not order in the first place.
Yeah I know , all you have to be is organised, but believe me this is a big project and it is not difficult to miss something.:suspect:

Infact I have been thinking about this, and I think that there are some "professional" project managers that would struggle with this, and not necessarily do a better job than us builders.:p

[rjtjrt]

Owen Stanley
"And don't get ripped off by the big four banks and their subsidiaries transferring cash, there are other options."

I'd like to know more about this.
John

[Arnold E]

I agree with OS. Exchange rates can make a big difference, I found that BankSA was by far the best where I live. But, ofcourse, this is only good for people living in SA,
I assume:cool:

[RVFlyer]

After all your discussions about costs etc.

I've just finished a 9A, it's excellent. If I was worried about saving fuel etc. I'd change hobby!

My formula is : 1* RV9a, 1* Superior IO-320, Catto Three blade Prop,
Dynon D10A , Becker Comm + ModeS, garmin GPS.

[poteroo]

Good choices,RV Flyer,

All you need extra on that setup is a fuel computor and a multiple point EGT/CHT unit. My Dynon D-180 works perfectly in covering all the instrumentation needs. About all that's needed now is to do the engine parameter recordings, send them to GAMI, and get their Gamijectors installed.

I made an earlier mistake with my 1st RV, (a -6), in fitting a CSU to the 180 Lycoming - only to see the backend of most other RV's fitted with FP props. Sure, you get fantastic acceleration, (& decel), but does an RV really need extra t/o power? Spending another $8000 isn't really worth it.

happy days,

[Arnold E]

Yikes:eek:. Maybe we are talking about different things here, but I paid a flat $30
to transfer and the exchange was within 0.8 cents of the published rate.

[KittyKatKaper]

With currency exchange rates, what you hear on the radio or see on the TV or the internet is a mid-point, instantaneous, very-high-volume value.
What you actually pay (buy or sell) will be a spread around that mid-point, anywhere from 2 to 10 percent to your disadvantage, depending on how much you want to transact and how convenient it is at the time.
And on top of that there will be the (usually fixed) transaction fees.

Try it., have a look at what the currency exchangers display., the mid-point of their buy/sell quotes will be close to what you've heard or seen on that day, but what you end-up paying will be substantially different.
don't do this exercise at an Australian airport lest you lose your cool and start muttering loudly about greed and thus attract the attention of the peramubulating constables or the bored CCTV operators

[frangatang]

There must be summat said for them as there are over 200 Rvs flying over here and another 200 being built and not a lot for sale. I am building one but as l will be 150 when its finished, brought one in from the states when the £ was worth a bit more than the zim$. Worked a treat...and still building! I wouldnt touch the nosewheel job though, they cartwheel for a pastime.

[Jabawocky]

they cartwheel for a pastime.

They need to go back to school :=

[VH-XXX]

Cartwheeling doesn't seem to be a major issue over here. I know it has happened on a couple of occasions recently however less issues than caused by ground-loops and nose-overs from braking etc.

[Jabawocky]

Last one down your way XXX was related to a series of bad decisions followed by a runway over run..........hardly a plane design fault.

And yes I say the result of a TailWheel handling problem recently. Took out some runway distance markers and did a fair bit of damage to the wing and fuel tank.

Not all TailWheels are trouble are they.........:E..........Maybe only Cubs are exceptions!:}

[Arnold E]

Actually had a 6 for about 2 years. Would say that it would be very difficult to put it on its nose, ground loop may be a bit easier , but sticking it on its nose, Hmmmm:uhoh:
Hoping the 7 is the same:p