Not another Norfolk Island Thread!

[Dogimed]

Hmmmmmm.....


Air ambulance crash pilot suspended despite heroic landing Steve Creedy, Aviation writer
From: The Australian February 24, 2010 12:
THE air safety watchdog has suspended the licence of the pilot hailed as a hero after last year's ditching of an air ambulance off Norfolk Island.
The Australian has learned that the Civil Aviation Safety Authority suspended Dominic James's licence as a result of its probe into the Westwind jet crash in November.

All six occupants of the Pel-Air Westwind jet survived after he and his co-pilot successfully ditched the plane in darkness off the coast of Norfolk Island.

Bad weather had prevented it from landing to refuel during a CareFlight mission to evacuate a sick woman and her husband from Western Samoa.

It ditched as fuel ran low after four landing attempts.

CASA launched an investigation in parallel to the normal accident probe after questions were raised about the amount of fuel the plane was carrying and why it did not have enough to reach another airport.

The watchdog said yesterday the Privacy Act prevented it from commenting on whether an individual's licence had been suspended. But it said it could suspend a licence "in the interests of safety".

The authority said the review of the Pel-Air accident was still in progress and issues included regulatory requirements.

It was also investigating Pel-Air's fuel policies and practices and training.

CASA said the regulations placed responsibility on the operator to ensure appropriate fuel policies to enable a flight to be carried out safely, and on the pilot-in-command to ensure there was enough fuel.

The air ambulance was operating under the aerial work category and Pel-Air indicated after the accident that it permitted planes to operate without enough fuel to reach an alternative place under some weather conditions.

The Australian Transport Safety Bureau said in its preliminary report that the forecast conditions at the time the crew submitted its flight plan did not require them to carry extra fuel or nominate an alternate airport.

It also revealed Pel-Air had introduced a program to check and revalidate its Westwind pilots on policies and procedures, safety management systems, instrument flight rules and threat and error management.

Captain James said yesterday he could not comment until the ATSB had completed its investigation.

[Jabawocky]

Another thread......No Comment :}

Ohhh Ok, just a couple, and this is a rumour only, but having recently spoken to a pilot who did aeromedical flights over these routes some years back, and seems to know a bit about what still goes on in the industry, the comment was passed that the operator may have had some resistance to divert to New Caledonia due to commercial dispute matters and hence it was not in ones scope of options (before the poo hits the fan of course).

So there ya go.....chew that rumour over.

Into the bunker I go!:suspect:

[JMEN]

Norfolk...................

[frigatebird]

Nothing wrong with discussing it .. sensibly and logicly. .. if you're interested it it. Me, I can't wait for the final report when it comes out, so I can compare with what I feel were the main causes of the whole sorry episode. Dumb luck at the end !!

[KRUSTY 34]

A 60 Minutes crew was outside Baxter Road last week. Staff were ordered not to talk to them. Fair enough as the jury is still out.

I wonder if they'll wait for the ATSB report. Probably just gathering background footage. :uhoh:

[tail wheel]

Nothing wrong with discussing it .. sensibly and logicly. .. if you're interested it it. Me, I can't wait for the final report when it comes out, so I can compare with what I feel were the main causes of the whole sorry episode.

One of the most sensible, logical and rational posts on the subject to date! :ok:

[Fantome]

resistance to divert to New Caledonia due to commercial dispute matters

This had an airing in one of the closed threads.

[bilbert]

Some nice video on the ATSB website of the a/c underwater in 2 pieces and with the undercarriage eh... down

[Rudder]

Lets not let the truth get in the way of a good story.

The issue with Noumea was RVSM capability. The aircraft that went in was made RVSM capable so it could go to Tontouta. Nothing to do with commercial pressures.

[frigatebird]

Must have really sparked up the awareness by CASA of RVSM capable aircraft, or not. Was doing a flight the other day, and heard Centre having quite a discussion with an aircraft about its flight plan, (Virgin doing an International if I recall correctly,) advising that the aircraft was not listed in the database as one that was approved for RVSM operation. Went on for quite a while.

[Wally Mk2]

I don't believe RVSM was or is an issue too much in this case. Not being RVSM approved doesn't mean you can't fly higher than 28K here in Oz for Eg it just means you can't expect to go higher unless the airway is clear of conforming RVSM A/C.
I still believe (& this is just a personal opinion) the end result of this underwater excursion was due commercial pressure but it remains to be seen in what form. Was there time constraints, where there fuel problems IE obtaining more fuel, remember where talking about a Pacific Is. here corruption/cooperation or lack thereof could be rife at some places.
If there where some issues with not using New Cal (the French CASA can be very tough) as an ALT then the flight perhaps should have not taken off until it could be conducted without the need to hold an ALT such as New Cal. Obviously (well to me anyway) it appears to be boiling down to not having full tanks on departure is the basis of this whole mess. the final report will indeed be very interesting reading to some commercial operators for sure.
As said before they all survived, good now lets learn from it, something we do all the time in aviation, learn by our mistakes!

Wmk2

[Capt Fathom]

advising that the aircraft was not listed in the database as one that was approved for RVSM operation. Went on for quite a while.

What database?

Be surprised if a Virgin Jet was not RVSM approved!

You just file RVSM on the Flightplan. Not sure why ATC would contest that?

[topdrop]

You just file RVSM on the Flightplan. Not sure why ATC would contest that?
Because there have been quite a few filing as RVSM approved when they aren't.
I believe they have a register of those that are approved and perhaps the Virgin one had not yet been added or not yet approved.
Same applies to ADSB - though that's a bit more obvious - the aircraft doesn't show up as ADSB track when it leaves radar coverage.

[truth boy]

Bilbert

In reference to the gear being down. This would be normal. With a hydraulic system NOT compromised. The gear should stay up for a significant time even without pressure. This is actually part of a westwinds regular maintenance checks i would think. But once hydraulic lines are cut the gear would most likely start to fall straight away. There would also be an inspection to ensure the gear can fall and lock without pressure. I guess it passed. :}

[Stationair8]

How long can the pilots licence be suspended for?

[scarediecat]

I reckon you are most likely right truth boy re the gear. Once hydraulic pressure is lost something like an uplock spring will lose pressure and release the gear and it will extend. But does the gear in a Westwind fall under under gravity in this scenario or is there some spring or bungy? Besides Im sure they had a look inside the cockpit to see if the gear lever was up or down. At the end of the day as stated earlier all problems started by not having enough gas in the tanks, thats why they ran out (almost).

I operate "negative RVSM" when I can be bothered and subject to ATC. Generally not a problem.

I wonder if Pelair will stand by their man? Time will tell.

[VH-XXX]

Perhaps the pilot should have filled out an "Aviation Self Reporting Scheme Report" from the ATSB. That way when they came knocking with their "show cause" (as to why we shouldn't take your licence away), he could have waved his receipt in their faces. In your FACE CASA! (he would say)

[Bloody Blind Bat]

Krusty,
yeah there was a film crew at Baxter Rd last week, not sure how much information they got....but instead it was the same day a Saab took off out of Grafton with the pitot cover left on and had to return to land!!

Heard our usually calm and relaxed FOM was telling everyone heading into Baxter Rd that day to keep hush about the pitot incident and not make any comment....just in case the news get hold of such a juicy piece of meat regarding an RPT outfit named Best In The World.

Now back to the ditching.

[The Green Goblin]

Or the Saab that had an engine failure on approach the other day which has been kept very quite on here and in the media :}

[paulg]

BBB "Now back to the ditching." Back to the bitching maybe?

[Arnold E]

Dont like REX, leave, isnt that the usual responce?

[Capt Claret]

But once hydraulic lines are cut the gear would most likely start to fall straight away

I'm not familiar with the Westwind apart from being able to recognise one.

If the above statement is correct, wouldn't this mean that a hydraulic failure in flight would see the gear extend, which could be quite undesirable at altitude, or, a long way from a suitable aerodrome?

[Cypher]

Yes It Does Capt Claret.. hence the term "wet footprint"...

But only if the lines fail after the one way restriction valve between the gear and the hydraulic pumps.

You can lose hydraulic pressure from the pumps in the WW and still have the gear stay in the up and locked position. I know because I've had a complete hydraulic failure in a WW, oceanic and still had the gear stay up. And theres that valve in the hydraulics diagram.. :)

What I can't remember was if the hydraulic lines on the WW go after the valve, and if the gear does come down, does the nosewheel doors open and the nosewheel fall down into the down and locked position. There was a N2 blowdown bottle for manual gear extension...

If the nosewheel doors on the WW were open on the one sitting on the bottom at Norfolk, I suspect it will give you a pretty good indication if the gear was selected down at the time of impact, or I suppose you could just take a dive and look at the gear handle....

After looking at the video, I do also noticed that the downlocks (the diagonal strut to the main gear strut) on the main gear look fully locked in the down position.... Normally it was a check on a preflight when on the ground to ensure that the strut was straight and the red markings matched up to form a straight line, to indicated the downlocks where in the down and locked position....

[chainsaw]

Capt Claret and Cypher - good posts! :D

Cypher:

If the nosewheel doors on the WW were open on the one sitting on the bottom at Norfolk, I suspect it will give you a pretty good indication if the gear was selected down at the time of impact

Video at about the 45 second mark seems to show that the NLG doors are open.