RAF New Look Quarters

[Sideshow Bob]

Anybody recognise theirs?

British Pathe - RAF NEW LOOK QUARTERS (http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=43191)

The kitchen certainly looks familiar.

[Motleycallsign]

What did FS Spray do wrong? I thought the soundtrack ended with him being demoted to Sgt!!!!

[Pontius Navigator]

Bob, good find.

Have a look at this one:

British Pathe - (VULCAN BOMBER) (http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=64239)

Gus Walker is the AVM but the pilot, is it Ron Dick? Ron died a couple of years ago and I flew one trip with him almost 40 years ago when he was OC of the other sqn (IX).

[VinRouge]

Cant believe I am living in the equivalent of a knockers house!

[goudie]

The clip with AVM Gus Walker was, I believe, taken at Nellis Field when Gus led a force of 4 Vulcans from 617 sqdn, to attend the World Congress of Flight, held in Las Vegas in '59.The pilot on the right is Sqdn Ldr Davenport 'B' Flt Commander. I was a very young cpl tech at the time and as you can imagine in those days, it was the 'jolly' of a life time. Gus passed himself off to the local press as the original one armed bandit! They loved him.

[Pontius Navigator]

Goudie, thank you.

Vin Rouge, it is too late at night. What do you mean?

[goudie]

Pontius Thank you for posting the clip. Took me back 50+ years and it was a nice surprise to see two officers who I admired and respected, especially Sqdn Ldr. Davenport. He gave me some sound career advice when it was needed.

[Fat Chris]

Vin, I can't believe that they let the bloody O's see what they've been missing for all these years.

You'll all want one now.

[Army Mover]

The quarters hadn't changed much when I moved in to an identical one at South Cerney 20 years later, just the paint was a lot thicker. :)

[Pontius Navigator]

The quarters hadn't changed much when I moved in to an identical one at South Cerney 20 years later, just the paint was a lot thicker. :)

No expense spared in those days. Did the windows open or were they draught-sealed by DuLux?

[philrigger]

;)

I think there is something fishy about this film. I lived in quarters with my father from 1948 and still work on a RAF camp today. I cannot ever remember airmans married quarters, even those designated as WO quarters, with garage attached. Occoasionally there would be a block of garages nearby and in the case of Cranwell in the 1950s there was also a hangar on the north airfield made available to park cars.

Which reminds me of a tale about the station police WO. A man call Edwards. Following reports of damage and theft from the vehicles in the hangar he thought he would catch the culprits red-handed. One night he climbed up onto the outside of the hangar roof in order to look through the (skylights. Unfortunatley the roof gave way and he fell onto a vehicle below. Miraculously he survived without serious injury except a very red face and we kids all took the micky out of him via his kids at school.

I know that some airmen live in officers quarters with garages today but they are still officers quarters.)

[Tankertrashnav]

Interesting seeing the NCO seeing the Valiant off - note the inverted chevrons with the crown above. That rank had gone by the time I joined in '64 - was that a senior technician?

[The Oberon]

Ah, the old technical ranks.

A J/T wore a single inverted chevron
A Cpl/Tech inverted Cpls chevrons
A Snr/Tech inverted Sgts chevrons
A Chf/Tech inverted Sgts Chevrons + Crown.
Master Tech. wore a W.O. Badge.

For 3 years at Locking I looked forward to dumping my apprentice wheel and getting my JT stripe. What happened ? Just before we passed out the stripe was replace with a cut down cloth version of the same wheel we wanted rid of.

[goudie]

Chief Techs (with crown) were gods in the RAF techie world, especially 'V' Bomber Crew Chiefs. Unfortunately by the time I reached this exalted rank the crown had gone in favour of the four bladed prop. It was said at the time that Flt Sgts were not all all happy with sharing their coveted crown with 'upstarts' and it compromised the chain of command.
Apologies for thread drift.

[Blacksheep]

I cannot ever remember airmans married quarters, even those designated as WO quarters, with garage attached. I lived in Blenheim Crescent in Ruislip back in the 70's in quarters just like those in the movie and, yes, there were some semi-detached quarters with attached garage exactly the same as that shown. They were meant for Flight Sergeants and Warrant Officers but the one next door but one to ours was occupied by the AOC's driver (a corporal) and he would bring the car home at weekends, wash and polish it, and keep it in the garage on standby.

[BEagle]

RAF Valley OMQ of the non-too-distant future after a few years of DHE neglect:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/ValleyMQ.jpg

"No mate - not due a re-dec for another few years yet....."

[philrigger]

;)

Blacksheep

and, yes, there were some semi-detached quarters with attached garage exactly the same as that shown.

The point is that when that film was made in the early 1950s that was not the standard AMQ nor even a non-standard AMQ.

When were the quarters that you refer to;

a. built?

b. allocated to airmen?

[Tankertrashnav]

Oberon and Goudie - Thanks both for the info. I've seen those single RAF chevrons before and as we never had Lance Corporals in the RAF I always wondered what they were! Never too late to learn something :ok:

[AARON O'DICKYDIDO]

PHILRIGGER

Film made in 1963 but I think your comment still stands.



Aaron

[Pontius Navigator]

It was said at the time that Flt Sgts were not all all happy with sharing their coveted crown with 'upstarts' and it compromised the chain of command..
And chiefs were none too pleased either as it suggested managerial responsibilities rather than engineering excellence - ditto for sgt tech and cpl tech. As for J/T, well it made them unique.

[TheTiresome1]

Back to the thread topic ... Officers Quarters in 1981 were still with a coke boiler. Still, it was Uxbridge/Swakeleys.

Look after the V-Force troops first. :}

[Sideshow Bob]

Since I started the thread, I thought I'd do some checking. It seems the building of quarters started in earnest with the expansion era airfields, but came to a holt during the war. It started again once finances got better after the war but style and design depended on financial year and area. I certainly have served at units where the 1960's era semi-detached quarters have garages (Brize) and some units (Waddington) don't.
My first quarter (Driffield 1994) still had its original kitchen complete with larder with airbricks to the outside for cooling! :ok:

[acmech1954]

Our first quarter at Marham did not need an air brick for cooling, steel framed windows and drafts from doors made sure of that. Luckily (?) we had a Parkray and radiators, cost a mint to run. No garages attached in Airmans or WO's quarters, just groups of 20 ish around the patch.

Off Piste
One memory of the surge in power cost in the early 70's was seeing a JT walking across the hangar, almost in tears, because his quarterly electric bill had come in at more than his months wages :{

[AARON O'DICKYDIDO]

I certainly have served at units where the 1960's era semi-detached quarters have garages (Brize) and some units (Waddington) don't.

Were the quarters built with garages at Brize built for the RAF or the Americans who were the previous occupants? I'm not sure when the RAF took over Brize. I guess it must have been around 1966/67 with the arrival of the VC10.


Aaron

[sisemen]

When I did my pre-commissioning tour at Brize as a cpl I was allocated a quarter in Hastings Drive. These quarters were ex-USAF quarters (and probably OMQ). They were a quantum leap from the 60s style AMQ that we had moved from at Scampton.

They even had showers - but, so as not to make us soft, they took a saw to the spigots. With a pair of pliers that was no problem though!

One drawback was the oil fired central heating and an open plan arrangement. The outlet louvres for the heating were at the top of the ceiling (go figure!) and I reckoned that it took a month's output from Saudi to get the house up to a reasonable temperature. Fortunately we had RAF subsidised heating oil because of this problem.

Next stop was OMQ at Rudloe Manor done tastefully in Bath stone.

[Blacksheep]

When were the quarters that you refer to;
a. built?
b. allocated to airmen?They were built as AMQ in the late 50s and there were more of the exact same houses in nearby West Drayton for the RAF contingent at the ATC Centre. All of the Ruislip and West Drayton AMQ have been sold off now and are owner occupied by civilians... go figure.

When I served at Brize Norton from 1971 to 1974 we were allocated an almost brand new house at Ampney Orchard in Bampton, where MOD had purchased an entire civil development to meet a shortage of AMQs. Ours was a 3 bedroom end of terrace. All these AMQs came with a detached garage at the end of the back garden; this "married patch" has also been sold off and civilianised.

[goudie]

Blacksheep, you were lucky. I was at Brize 70-74 and was allocated a house in 'legoland'. I had every intention of buying a house when I returned from my overseas tour but houses were scarce and gazumping was rife. It was two years before we managed to move into our own house.

[philrigger]

;)

Blacksheep



I stand corrected.

I was considerling only those AMQs that were built as such and not civilian estates purchased to fill the requirement.

[Sideshow Bob]

AARON O'DICKYDIDO,

They were built for the RAF, Prefab no less, built as a short gap, still being used, asbestos and all! There are quite a lot of 60's era semi's built as AMQ quarters that have garages attached, there were some at Driffield and I have seen them at other camps.

As I said, there is no standard though and it, as today, depended on budget and year built.

[Blacksheep]

A link (http://www.multimap.com/s/JNm1yrwO)to a photo image of Blenheim Crescent. The old 1920s AMQ in Cordingley Road contrast with the 1950s built AMQs in Blenheim Crescent and Lysander Road. I note from the photo map that there are only the one pair of semi-detached AMQs with attached garages, about the right ratio for Warrant Officers to Erks. The rest of us had to bid for one of the detached garages in blocks to the rear. (The large buildings in the foreground and across the road from the Semi-D's were "Government Offices" occupied then by Admiralty staff.)

[TAC Queen]

OMG I have that very cooker

[zetec2]

Came back to BZN December 1970, no quarters available at BZN so was moved into a 3 bed house with garage in Radley Close Swindon, half the houses were RAF, mix of airmen & Rodneys, balance Wiltshire police, never had it so good, after 4 years still no quarters (didn't want one anyway) so bought our first house in Fairford. Paul H.

[Tony P-J]

If I am not mistaken, I believe that Master Technicians wore the same badge of rank as Master Aircrew, but without the 'golden eagle' in the centre. (I saw one once back in 1958!)

[ian16th]

Time to give my age away :eek:

My service, in a technical trade, was virtually coincident with the duration of 'the old technical ranks'. The then 'new trade structure' was introduced in 1951 and done away with in 1964. My service was '52 to '65.

I seemed to suffer from all of the worst aspects of it!

I started as a 15 year old Boy Entrant on an engagement of 10 years, the little catch was that the 10 years didn't commence until my 18th birthday.:rolleyes:

Initially the 'experience' requirement between each technical rank was 5 years. But during this 5 year period, a J/T could be promoted to Cpl and a Cpl/Tech could be promoted to Sgt etc. and then, if the trade test was passed, go back to the 'Technical Ladder'.

Some time after the schemes introduction, but definitely by Feb '59, their Airships decided that to encourage long term recruitment, for persons on an engagement of 12 years or more these 'time' qualifications were reduced, from J/T to Cpl/Tech to 3 years and from Cpl/Tech to Snr/Tech a further 4 years or 7 in total from J/T to Snr/Tech. I can't remember the time to Chiefy, sorry I'll claim senility.

In my case, I passed my Cpl/T trade test just less than 3 years after my J/T, so I waited for more than another 2 years to become a Cpl/T. This by the way was worth 2/6 a day more than my then Cpl's pay. Shortly after my 5 years and promotion to Cpl/Tech, their Airships decided to apply the 3 year qualification to persons on a 9 year or longer engagement! This really made me feel good :ugh:

Then in 1964 all the Cpl/Techs reverted to Cpl, on the same rate of pay as those that had sat on their *rses and not bothered to do any work to pass their trade test. Just another feel good factor.:ugh:

Even worse was the treatment handed out to some Chief/Techs. In 1951 some Flt/Sgt's in the technical trades, took the option of becoming Chief/Techs. Many of them becoming Crew Chiefs on V-Bombers. Some of these guys were still Chief/Techs in 1964. At which time Chief/Tech became a rank BELOW Flt/Sgt!! So they were suddenly junior to guys that had been promoted to Flt/Sgt between 1951 and 64. Taking the crown of them and giving them the cloth propeller only rubbed in the insult.

[Pontius Navigator]

Visited an AMQ at St Evil (sic) once. Amazed. Opened front door, flight of stair straight up and door to living room on the right. IIRC the decor was a sort of sludge blue gloss paint with many layers applied over the years. The walls were brick and unplastered!

[circle kay]

Tony P-JIf I am not mistaken, I believe that Master Technicians wore the same badge of rank as Master Aircrew, but without the 'golden eagle' in the centre. (I saw one once back in 1958!)
I think that you saw a Master Aircrew in a Greatcoat in 1958; the 'Brass' eagle can not be pushed trough the material of the coat. To the same end Flight Sergeants have cloth crowns on Greatcoats.

P G Hering's Customs and Traditions of the Royal Air Force (Gale and Polden 1961) has the Master Technician with a standard 'Tate and Lyle'

Regards CK

[alisoncc]

ian16th wrote:
Then in 1964 all the Cpl/Techs reverted to Cpl, on the same rate of pay as those that had sat on their *rses and not bothered to do any work to pass their trade test. Just another feel good factor.:ugh:


Don't think that was so. I went from J/T to Cpl/Tech early '66, being Air Radio Fitter, ex-96th Locking. Additional stripe came with posting from Finningley to Sharjah. Fairly certain I wore them upside down as a techie.

[Old-Duffer]

Sorry Alisoncc, but the new trade structure came in on 1 April 1964. The differences that remained were in part caused by the List One and List two trades. The former retained the ranks of J/T and C/T and besides purely 'technical' trades included skilled professionals, such as musicians and some medical chappies (and chickies of course).

If you did have your stripes upside down in '66, I'm surprised some hairy great SWO didn't politely remind you, along the lines of: "I say, old boy, would you mind awfully getting properly dressed".

O-D

[taxydual]

Hmmm, could explain a lot. Techies having confusion regarding the term 'This Way Up'.



(Only a joke, chaps, only a joke)

[ian16th]

Old Duffer,
Thanks for showing that I'm not yet senile :ok:

I was at Akrotiri 1 Apl 64, at the time of the change, and posted home in the Sept, 6 months before my demob. I hadn't turned my tapes over on my greatcoat at Akrotiri and I managed to have it 'in the tailors' at Marham in time to miss Armistice Day in Kings Lynn:) So was my greatcoat one of the last Cpl/T's in the RAF?:)

Anyone ever notice how all Citreon's are Cpl/Techs? :bored:

[Gnd]

And as understandable as the French!!!!!!

[Tankertrashnav]

OK, here's a question for the old hairies.

In the army an inverted chevron was a long service stripe, but this is going back a long time, they'd maybe even gone out by WW2. I think they were only worn by privates, and they were worn on the lower sleeve. Naval ratings still have them, of course (but not inverted).

First time I saw a (loose) junior tech's chevron in a box of old cloth insignia I assumed that this was an old RAF long service stripe, but now I realise what it was thanks to posts above. But did the RAF ever have long service stripes?

[taxydual]

TTN

Not Long Service Stripes as such, they appeared as lines across the forehead.

[ian16th]

But did the RAF ever have long service stripes?

In a word, Yes!

In more words, several different versions of Long Service & Good Conduct stripes.

In regular airmans service, the the 'J/T's' stripe that you found could have been a long service stripe. They were worn, point upwards above the left cuff. I believe that they were awarded for 5 years service plus 'good conduct'. They were discontinued before my time.

In Boy Entrants and Aircraft and Admin Apprentice service up to 3 such stripes could be earned. The qualifying time was set so that 3 'GC's', as they were known, could be earned by the Passing Out Parade, but because of the ease that 'jankers' could be earned in Brats service, getting all 3 in time for pass out was quite an achievement :)

Similar stripes were worn in Brats service by 'Bandsmen', these on the right lower sleeve. The Drum Major at passout could possibly have worn the largest number of stripes/chevrons ever seen on an RAF uniform. If he was a Sgt/Boy or App with 3 GC's I reckon that he could have worn 6 stripes on each arm!

I am still in touch with a former Drum major through the RAFBEA so I will ask him.

Nostalgia ain't what it used to be.

[ian16th]

http://www.rafbea.org/aswewere/Pictures/ted_murray_15th/15th-Entry-Band-1d.jpg

My 1st attempt at posting a picture.

From the RAFBEA site, the 15th Entry band, I believe from Cosford. The guy 4th from the left in the front row is the Drum Major, he is wearing a total of 12 stripes/chevrons. I believe a candidate for the most ever worn on any RAF uniform!

Note the two guys at the extreme right, only 2 GC's each! They got caught for something and did some jankers :)

Late Edit.

Since posting this, I have been informed by a former 'bandsman', now in Oztralia, that Drum and Trumpet Majors wore 'FOUR' stripes on their lower right sleeves!

So the total stripe count was 13 :ok:

And I still haven't posted a picture :confused:

[Cornerstone958]

Dear Mod's
Major thread drift here what has 'stripes' got to do with MQ's?:rolleyes:
Now if you want to know about Trenchard Avenue RAF Halton circa 1967 I can help!
CS

[Tankertrashnav]

Sorry Cornerstone - I just find uniforms much more interesting than MQs, that's all ;)

Thanks Ian for the info, very interesting :ok:

[4mastacker]

The introductory bit states that the Valiant was at Cosford. I was wondering if a Valiant could get out of Cosford with any sort of meaningful load, especially if it was taking off towards the railway embankment.