Flight Canx - Your Views Please

[Final 3 Greens]

As mentioned in another thread, I have an RUH-LHR-MUC flight with bmi on 25/2, STA 1005, with the LHR-MUC segment a LH codeshare.

I then have a flight onward with Air Malta at 1240, on another ticket.

The minimum check in time is -30 minutes, so the inbound flight would have to be very late in order for me to miss the KM flight and I have trave insurance against the failure of public transport, so effectively risk free.

Now, bmi informs me that LH have cancelled the 0715/1005 flight LHR/MUC and can only accomodate me on a 1315/1615 alternative, clearly no use.

Furthermore, they will only cancel and refund the whole RUH-LHR-MUC trip, not the LHR-MUC portion. (I had offered to find my own way back to Malta from LHR, if they refunded me that segment.)

Does this seem a tad unreasonable to anyone?

[Fargoo]

I'd say it's quite normal but not acceptable.
They should really try to accomodate you by endorsing your ticket for use on another carrier that flies the same route at a similar time.

Can you bump the Malta flight back a bit or is that non-flexible?

p.s. Just checked the Lufty site and they are still selling tickets on the 0605 flight out of LHR

[frontcheck]

The refund would depend on the fare conditons for the RUH/LHR/MUC sectors (assuming it is a through ticket). It could well be that there is very little difference in the fare RUH/LHR AND RUH/LHR/MUC and when you then take the UK taxes into account you could find yourself owing bmi money as the fare terminating in LHR is more expensive. Just a thought.
Presumably the cancellation is a knock on effect from the LH strike?

[Fargoo]

p.p.s The revised timetable for the 25th is

http://www.lufthansa.com/mediapool/pdf/66/media_788966.pdf

Any re-instated flights will be notified on their website tonight for the 25th's.

[Final 3 Greens]

Fargoo

I can pretty much do whatever I want with the KM ticket, as it is a flexible business class fare, but after 4 weeks abroad, I don't wish to delay another day by slipping it back to Friday.

My thinking was I'd just swap my KM MUC-MLA for a LHR-MLA (I can do that) and stop my journey at LHR.

But the agent says, following a conversation with the airline, that bmi would insist on checking the luggage through to MUC.

Frontcheck

The refund would depend on the fare conditons for the RUH/LHR/MUC sectors (assuming it is a through ticket). It could well be that there is very little difference in the fare RUH/LHR AND RUH/LHR/MUC and when you then take the UK taxes into account you could find yourself owing bmi money as the fare terminating in LHR is more expensive. Just a thought.

bmi cancelled the LHR MUC flight, not me, so I don't think your logic is correct in this instance.

bmi conditions are

10.2 INVOLUNTARY REFUNDS

10.2.1.2 if a portion of the Ticket has been used, the refund will be not less than the difference between the fare paid and the applicable fare for travel between the points for which the Ticket has been used.

As I read that, that means the total cost of the ticket less the portion of that cost for the LHR-MUC segment.

One can hardly cancel a flight on a customer and then alter the fare basis for the remaining usable portion, even though that may be higher if booked separately.

All bmi has done is to re-ticket me, under my protest that I do not accept this arrangement.

Yes, it is a throught ticket on bmi paper, D class.

[Pontius Navigator]

stop my journey at LHR.

. . . bmi would insist on checking the luggage through to MUC..

Supposing you did break your journey but BMI flew your baggage on . . .

This breaks the now traditional security rule that baggage always flies with its owner.

If you fail to board on the last segment BMI should have no option but to offload your luggage. However I guess they might try and bill you for any delay unless of course you could make it a condition of travel?

[EC-ILS]

bmi didnt cancel the LHR-MUC leg LH did, and baggage doesnt always fly with its owner! Most of the time it does but definitley not always!

[Final 3 Greens]

If you fail to board on the last segment BMI should have no option but to offload your luggage. However I guess they might try and bill you for any delay unless of course you could make it a condition of travel?

Seeing as they cancelled the last segment, I don't understand your logic.

You cannot force someone to take a flight that they did not book, I believe any attempt to do so woud be a very serious criminal offence.

bmi didnt cancel the LHR-MUC leg LH did

As my contract is with bmi, Lufthansa cannot cancel the flight with me, only bmi can, so bmi did cancel the LHR-MUC segment.

Now maybe they cancelled it because of action by LH, but that does not change the fact.

[philbky]

As far as I understand it the basis of your contract is with bmi who have contracted to carry you from A to B to C on a given date. They as codeshare partner (apart from the fact that DLH own them) have a contract with DLH for that seat frm B to C for which they will pay DLH a percentage of your fare. What DLH do, or don't do, is not germain to the situation as bmi have booked you on the DLH flight under their flight number.

If your ticket is a through ticket then surely the party to the contract "responsible" for any delay or disruption to your journey is held responsible and has to ensure your journey is completed as expeditiously as possible without any extra cost to you and be responsible for paying for inconvenience. However, as the Air Malta section of your journey is on a different ticket, as far as bmi are concerned therir liability ends at their destination, though a reasonable carrier would see the whole picture and try to help by, if necessary rerouting you..

Airlines are not the only companies which try to get away with blue murder. Had the ticket been purchased in the UK their action may have fallen under the unfair conditions rules for contracts.

You may be better cancelling the deal and getting your credit card company to refund you as the contract looks to have been broken as the action of bmi is unilateral.

Finally, check the EU rules regarding cancellation and delay as the affected part of the journey is on an intra European flight and contact IATA for their interpretation..

[philbky]

If, on the other hand you don't want the hassle, contact your insurers before departure and seek their advice.

[PAXboy]

If I didn't know better, I'd say BMI were trying to do business by the rules they used in the last century ... :rolleyes:

Nothing to add, just mooching past in a quiet moment. Evenin' all.

[Final 3 Greens]

I have accepted an involuntary refund from bmi, as they cannot fulfil the contract and have made alternative arrangements.

When I get back to Malta, I shall institute a claim under the EU legislation for 600€, as they were unable to re-route me in a reasonable period of time.

The fact that they involuntarily cancelled the flight is pretty much the evidence I need to demonstrate that they were unable to deliver the contract.b

They are obliged to re-route in a 'reasonable period' and could only offer a 1315 departure against a 0715 departure.

However, as the Air Malta section of your journey is on a different ticket, as far as bmi are concerned therir liability ends at their destination, though a reasonable carrier would see the whole picture and try to help by, if necessary rerouting you..

Yes, you are right, so the test is the delay reasonable.

I doubt that a small claims administrator would consider that a reasonable period of time for a business traveller, especially as it would cause me to incur substantial overnight expenses at Munich.

It will be interesting to see how they try to wriggle out of it using the 'exceptional circumstances' rule.

Their 'subby' let them down, but they are still responsible as you rightly say.

[Fargoo]

From the EU paper in the link below

Can a strike be considered as an extraordinary circumstance?
Yes, under certain conditions. Recital 14 of the Regulation states that strikes can constitute
extraordinary circumstances. A case-by-case assessment will remain crucial taking into
account all relevant jurisprudence and legislation in force in the country of the incident.

They can wriggle out of compensation with this one.

http://ec.europa.eu/transport/passengers/air/doc/neb/questions_answers.pdf_reg_2004_261.pdf

See page 8

[philbky]

Not necessarily. The circumstances under which and when the flight was cancelled need to be considered and question 16 and its answer would also be germain.

[Final 3 Greens]

Quite so philbky.

Because they could not fulfil the journey from London to Munich in line with my needs, the airline cancelled the whole journey, despite my offer to get off at London and make my own way home, for a refund of the London to Munich leg.

What extraordinary circumstances applied between Riyadh and London?

I have a written audit trail showing the threat that my bags will be checked through to Munich, even if I get off at London.

I think that will look like pretty unreasonable behavoiur to a small claims court administrator.

[frontcheck]

It was not bmi who cancelled the LHR/MUC it was LH as stated in your original post, because BD are the first carrier and you are ticketed onn 236 stock bmi are the first contact and therefore the bearers of bad news brought about by another airlines failings. I dont see why BD are getting so much stick on this one. They have offered to re-orute to alternative flight it is up to the customer to accept it or not. As for through checking your bags, provided you have the correct documentation to enter the UK and have sufficient time between flights there should be no reason to have to through check them to MUC.

[Fargoo]

Just out of interest, which route/carriers have you re-booked with?

Good luck with the claim, keeps us posted on how they react. Hopefully they'll just pay up straight away without the need for small claims. :ok:

Have a good trip tomorrow. :)

[ulxima]

If you fail to board on the last segment BMI should have no option but to offload your luggage. However I guess they might try and bill you for any delay unless of course you could make it a condition of travel?


I do not think it is in the conditions of carriage.
Text below has been extracted from KLM T&Cs. I presume BMI is pretty the same.
"Passengers must arrive at the Carrier’s boarding gate sufficiently in advance of the flight in order to carry out all the formalities and these formalities should, in any event, be completed by the Passenger at the latest at the time specified by the Carrier. If a Passenger fails to meet the aforementioned boarding gate deadline the Passenger shall not be entitled to travel. The Carrier shall be entitled to cancel a Passenger’s reservation and seat reserved for such Passenger if the Passenger is not present at the boarding gate at the time specified without any liability toward the Passenger."

Regarding F3G issue, T&Cs are clear. Here KLM's again (and again I trust BMI are pretty the same):"Carrier will honour Coupons only in sequence from the Place of Departure as shown on the Ticket. The fare that the Passenger paid corresponds to the route stated on the Ticket and the usage of the complete routing shown on the Ticket forms an essential part of the Contract of Carriage. The Contract of Carriage excludes the cancellation of individual parts (Coupons) of the journey. Except as otherwise provided for in the Fare conditions, the Ticket will not be accepted and shall lose all value and validity if the Coupons are not used in the order in which they are issued (for example if the Passenger does not use the first Coupon and embarks at a point which is not the Place of Departure, or embarks at an airport mentioned in the Ticket without having used any of the previous Coupon(s))."

I have been there and it is unpleasant when on the other side of the desk
(or phone) you find someone who literally stick to the terms and much more obscene is when you deal with a senior manager whose mind is even narrower :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:
This happened to me in 2001 when I experienced a similar problem with Lufthansa. No way to make the ticket agent in Munich to look at the global perspective.
Therefore a premium passenger (whose MM status was Senator) had no other choice than stay one more night in Munich, arriving one day later at home.
I have not been flying Lufthansa since then.
In these days airlines should look much more after their passengers, especially those premium and frequent travellers.
Maybe MOL is right: he does not look after them and his planes fly with an enviable load factor.
Keep us informed F3G and safe journey home.

Ciao ciao
Ulxima

[Final 3 Greens]

Frontcheck

Every time a passenger raises an issue on here, people fomr the industry are quick to point out the contract.

In this instance, the contract is with bmi, not LH and it is a through ticket.

bmi are obliged under EU regs to provide re-routing, which they refusal to do, despite a BA flight being available at a time that would have met my needs.

I have written evidence of this refusal (and also it is on tape at bmi) and also written evidence of BA availability.

Instead, bmi involuntarily canceled the whole segment, because I would not accept a 6 hour delay when travelling on business, so they could keep me on Lufthansa.

Philbky has already pointed out the relevant question in the EU regs and bmi doesn;t have aleg to stand on.

They deserve the stick, as they have ignored the EU directive and it is goign to sting.

I shall do this on a point of principle.

[Final 3 Greens]

Hi Fargoo

I took a W class flight with BA (no C available, 1 F, but I nearly had a coronary when I saw the cost!) and have re-arranged my Air Malta to depart from LHR tonight for 127€.

The BA flight was very good this morning, as WT+ was nearly empty - the service was very good, as it often is with BA.

This added, as I often criticise BA for poor ground service, just to say again that the service in the air is seldom less than acceptable and often much better.

Thanks to all on BA262.

[Fargoo]

Glad you had a safe and enjoyable journey, it still irks me to see how airlines including my own treat passengers when problems occur.

Have a safe onward journey and keep us posted :ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

and baggage doesnt always fly with its owner! Most of the time it does but definitley not always!

May I qualify that? As far as the passenger is concerned their baggage is in the hold with them for better or for worse.

The baggage may however fly on a later flight or even not at all if from Heathrow or Amsterdam :}. The point is that the passenger cannot load a bomb and then avoid its consequences. Of course today that concept is relevant for some passengers :(.

Several times my baggage has not flown with me: once we saw it sitting in the baggage cart at Aswan. Another time KLM delivered it 2 days later. The best was my wife's hand luggage that did the Gatwich-Guernsey flight 3 times although we only flew once - it was not her fault.

[philbky]

Baggage frequently flies without its owner - but there are rules in place regarding x-ray, physical search and time delays.

[champair79]

Bags don't have to fly with the owner - they must be accounted for! That's the subtle difference. For example, if the airline decides to put the bags on a later flight, no problem as long as the relevant paperwork is filled in and accounted for. The problem comes when a passenger checks in and doesn't board the flight and the bags do. THAT is a security risk!

[Remers]

I'm not sure you will win your claim. You have already stated that they have offered you a reroute. The question of whether a 6 hour delay is a reasonable one is debateable but if it is the next BMI or LH flight I imagine it would be deamed to be. If they have options on their flights I would also giuess they wouldn't have to reroute you on their competitors.

All their options could be upto how they want to treat you including only going to LHR. But I don't think legally they have done anything wrong. You can argue whether morally or just for customer service if they should of offered move than they did. It willbe interesting to see what they say.

[Final 3 Greens]

but if it is the next BMI or LH flight I imagine it would be deamed to be.

It was not, nor the one after that. Please explain how that can be a 'reasonable re-routing', as required by the directive?

Even if it was, please explain why bmi cancelled the flight from Riyadh to London, which was not affected by the strike?

I disagree that it wil be interesting to see what bmi says; it is highly predictable.

What is more interesting is what the AUC will say.

[frontcheck]

The reason bmi may have cancelled your RUH/LHR sector is because as posted by you on 23rd Feb - I have accepted an involuntary refund from bmi, as they cannot fulfil the contract and have made alternative arrangements.

That seems to indicate that you had no intention of taking this flight therefore any airline would cancel the seat in the hope of selling it again , makes commercial sense to me , or am I missing something?

[Final 3 Greens]

am I missing something?

Yes, you are.

I wanted to take the RUH-LHR sector and bmi refused to allow this without me agreeing to a re-routing 6 hours later in the day.

bmi also refused to re-route me on to the BA flight that would have worked for me.

I offered to get off at London and get myself home, if bmi would refund the money paid for the LHR-MUC segment and bmi refused this too.

In other words, because bmi could not provide me with a flight to Munich within a reasonable time (and I would assert that 6 hours is not reasonable for a short haul journey), they decided to cancel both flights and I had no option but to accept that they did that and make alternative arrangements.

I bent over backwards to be flexible (via MUC at a reasonable time, get off at London and find my own way home) and bmi did not.

No doubt the airline will claim extraordinary circumstances, but if they do I will sue for the EU compensation.

[frontcheck]

Was the ticket valid BD/LH only? If so it could not be transferred to BA
Was the ticket a through fare to MUC, in other word no stopover in LON? If so the fare would need to be recalculated without the MUC flight if you elected to travel to LHR only.
Because the alternative was not acceptable you agreed to a refund as you stated previously. Yes be annoyed at the situation but remember it was brought about by LH cancelling the LHR/MUC flight.

[Final 3 Greens]

frontcheck

This is getting tedious.

Here is the relevant extract from the EU directive

1. In case of cancellation of a flight, the passengers
concerned shall:

(a) be offered assistance by the operating air carrier in accordance
with Article 8; and

(b) be offered assistance by the operating air carrier in accordance
with Article 9(1)(a) and 9(2), as well as, in event of rerouting
when the reasonably expected time of departure of
the new flight is at least the day after the departure as it
was planned for the cancelled flight, the assistance specified
in Article 9(1)(b) and 9(1)(c); and

(c) have the right to compensation by the operating air carrier
in accordance with Article 7, unless:

(i) they are informed of the cancellation at least two
weeks before the scheduled time of departure; or

(ii) they are informed of the cancellation between two
weeks and seven days before the scheduled time of
departure and are offered re-routing, allowing them to
depart no more than two hours before the scheduled
time of departure and to reach their final destination
less than four hours after the scheduled time of arrival;
or

(iii) they are informed of the cancellation less than seven
days before the scheduled time of departure and are
offered re-routing, allowing them to depart no more
than one hour before the scheduled time of departure
and to reach their final destination less than two hours
after the scheduled time of arrival.

2. When passengers are informed of the cancellation, an
explanation shall be given concerning possible alternative transport.

3. An operating air carrier shall not be obliged to pay
compensation in accordance with Article 7, if it can prove that
the cancellation is caused by extraordinary circumstances
which could not have been avoided even if all reasonable
measures had been taken.

4. The burden of proof concerning the questions as to
whether and when the passenger has been informed of the
cancellation of the flight shall rest with the operating air
carrier.

Given that the LH strike had been known for some time, it is hardly an extraordinary circumstance for cancelling the Riyadh segment or indeed for failing to re-route to Munich.

I am afraid that, whayever you think, bmi's fare rules do not come into the equation.

Let me remind you, I did not have a contract with DLH, so it was up to bmi to resolve the matter in line with the EU directive.

[frontcheck]

Still not sure
1a - The operating carrier of the LHR/MUC sector is LH. LH advised BD of the new flight and as BD were first carrier they were obliged to advise you the re-booking as offered by LH
1b - new flight was on same day
1c - operating carrier LH
2 - Was an explanation given?
3 - Strike by another carrier pretty exceptional circumstances
4 - It is all taped therefore proof is on file

The RUH/LHR was cancelled because you stated you wanted a refund as the alternative was unacceptable.

[Final 3 Greens]

frontcheck

For goodness sake...

1a, b and c refer to Article 8, so your points are not well directed. On the subjtec of re-routing note the EU's Question, frmo their Q&A document, #

21: Does the flight, in cases of re-routing, have to be performed by the
original operating carrier?23

No. This flight does not necessarily need to be operated by the airline the passenger booked
with.

Right to reimbursement or re-routing
1. Where reference is made to this Article, passengers shall
be offered the choice between:

(a) — reimbursement within seven days, by the means
provided for in Article 7(3), of the full cost of the ticket
at the price at which it was bought, for the part or
parts of the journey not made, and for the part or parts
already made if the flight is no longer serving any
purpose in relation to the passenger's original travel
plan, together with, when relevant,
— a return flight to the first point of departure, at the
earliest opportunity;

(b) re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to their
final destination at the earliest opportunity; or

(c) re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to their
final destination at a later date at the passenger's convenience,
subject to availability of seats.

2. Paragraph 1(a) shall also apply to passengers whose
flights form part of a package, except for the right to reimbursement
where such right arises under Directive 90/314/EEC.

3. When, in the case where a town, city or region is served
by several airports, an operating air carrier offers a passenger a
flight to an airport alternative to that for which the booking
was made, the operating air carrier shall bear the cost of transferring
the passenger from that alternative airport either to that
for which the booking was made, or to another close-by destination
agreed with the passenger.


2. The explanation given about alternative transport was, 'this is it, take it or leave it.'

3. I don't agree - note the EU Question 14: Can a strike be considered as an extraordinary circumstance?

Yes, under certain conditions. Recital 14 of the Regulation states that strikes can constitute extraordinary circumstances. A case-by-case assessment will remain crucial taking into account all relevant jurisprudence and legislation in force in the country of the incident.

Given that bmi's sub contractor went on strike (three days before, for one day only), and there was an alternative flight available with BA, I don't think that a small claims court will regard this as extraordinary, just my opinion.

Finally, I did not ask for a refund, I asked for a re-routing with BA, I then asked to use the ticket to London and then have a refund of the LHR MUC sector, to allow me to make my own way home.

bmi offered no other option but to accept a new connection leaving 6 hours after the original and arriving 6 hours afterwards, this was a non option and it did not comply with the EU directive.

Not only is it on tape, but I have a written audit trail via the travel agent.

The term 'involuntary cancellation' is used by the airline rep.