Perceived safety and travel plans . . .

[pax domina]

Also not trying to be controversial here, but for the second time within a month I have seen an airline's perceived safety affect travel plans . . .

First, a banker was originally scheduled to accompany me on a one day "signing trip" MCO-ATL-MCO. I ended up flying alone on Delta. At one point I was exploring our options, trying to keep the (total) airfare for two under $500, and e-mailed him, "For the time we need, looks like the best we can do on Delta is $303 a piece. The alternative to Delta is AirTran, they are much cheaper, but I don't know how you feel about flying with them." (AirTran - successor to ValueJet.)

The answer (his exact words) "I value my life too much to fly on AirTran."

Yesterday, I loaned out my corporate plastic so we could book seven flights to Anchorage, Alaska. The boss (see story below) told the person booking the flights *not* to use Alaska Air.

[Oft repeated story - This is the boss who once announced to the staff (other staff were on the same flight) that he was leaving early, in order to get to the airport early, to get the first choice of seats on Southwest, so he could sit in an exit row, because "I want to get the hell out while the rest of you are still sitting there burning up."]

There is often much discussion of airline safety and safety "culture" (for lack of a better term) up in the penthouse of R&N. Well, what is the view from the SLF bargain basement? These perceptions may not have chosen the airlines the above flights were eventually booked on, but they certainly *excluded* some carriers from consideration.

[The Sleeping Pax]

I recently had to face up to a whether I would fly Bangkok-Accra-Lome-Lagos-Bangkok using Ethiopian via Addis Ababa. I was unable to find out details of Ethiopian and it's service and safety record from either my Travel Agent or Via a request here in the SLF forum or the Africa forum. So in the end, I spent more money and indeed felt more comfortable flying Swiss Air via Zurich.
These days in the developed world you are fortunate that you can choose airlines. There is a good choice from certain hubs in the developing world to various destinations. I am thinging of my base of BKK were I can fly to LHR on 5 carriers. SYD on 4 carriers. How about a necessary flight from say Phnom Phen to Vientiane? I have a choice of either Royal Air Cambodge or Lao Aviation. There is a 3rd choice of a long flight by Thai via BKK? What do I do as a self employed businessman? Time is costly. My choice in this case was to fly Lao Aviation. The reason. I didn't feel secure with RAC. Not just yet. Maybe in time I'll feel more comfortable.

[pigboat]

Pax D, when I was aviation director at our company, we had a list of recommended and non recommended domestic airlines. I forget the exact criteria, but it involved safety, convenience etc. When we were taken over by a company from Oz, they had their own list which we adopted as well. If you like, zap me an e-mail, and I'll see if I can scrounge it up. By the way, my favorite airline, one we trained at for twenty five years didn't make our list, and one that generates a fair amount of controversy in these fora made the Aussie one. Oh well.

[Lurk R]

I seem to recall that a certain Asian airline has its pilots dead-head on a different airline...

[ExSimGuy]

I'm flying home on leave/business (and the GatBash :) ) in a week or so, via BAH on GF.

Fare's good, service and reliability has always been good enough in the past.

Okay, they dumped one in the water a month ago, but dear old Nigel have lost a few, as have TWA, PanAm, Lufthansa, SwissAir . . .

If the safety record of an airline was obviously rotten, it would make a difference, but I'm not going to be swayed just because an airline was the most recent to have an accident/incident.

Now if I could find someone who flew into Gatwick from this region, instead of LHR . . . .

------------------
---- "Per Ardua ad Mixas" ----
(Through hardship to the bars)

[ExSimGuy]

Why don't I keep my big mouth shut?

Flew GF, as planned, as the only problem was a couple of years ago when they lost BOTH my bags for 5 days!

Arrived in BAH for a 6-hour connection, to leave at 01:30 on Saturday, delay, delay, "sorry, but we can't find a plane for you" (how the devil can they lose an A340 :rolleyes:

Finally at 04:30 they decided to put us in a hotel, where we arrived at 06:30. 3 hours sleep later "can you please be in reception at 10 o'clock"

Boarded some of us on a direct to LHR, the rest via AUH to LHR. Arrived London 19:00 local to find that one of my bags had actually arrived! Took an hour to sort out the paperwork and collect the offered 35 quid for "temporary clothing" (not too much chance of getting much at 8pm!) and finally got to the GatBash at 21:30 ;)

Fortunately, PPRuNers are not generally taken to go to bed early so I still had about 6 hours to revell, and more the next morning!

The up-side was a visit to the flite deck for an hour - my first to a glass cockpit - "Thanks Skipper" :) . :)

(dare I say that I'm trvelling to the Manchester bash by train)


------------------
---- "Per Ardua ad Mixas" ----
(Through hardship to the bars)

[Biggles Flies Undone]

My job allows me access to very detailed stats regarding airline safety and procedures. It is most certainly not controversial to suggest that some are safer than others – the difference between the top and bottom of the safety league is huge.

There are plenty of airlines that I would avoid wherever possible and some that I would not fly under any circumstances. Some of the names on the list would probably surprise even hardened PPRuNers…….

[I'd rather]

BFU! You can't leave us like that! Tell!

We can probably guess the obvious ones (the Chinese airlines, Aeroflot, some of the obscure African ones) but would love to hear the "surprises"!

(Do I remember someone once saying Air Malta was dodgy? Wouldn't have been one that occurred to me).

[Biggles Flies Undone]

Sorry, can't do that - after all it's very much a subjective rather than objective list (i.e. a lot of it is based on my personal feelings and intuition).

If anyone has a particular concern they can drop me an e mail and I'll bang them out some info - but at the end of the day you pays yer money and takes yer chance :)

[Bird Strike]

I must admit there are quite a few airlines that I would not travel on, and there are quite a few others that I would rather not travel on, given a choice.

Biggles, e-mail me your subjective list, please! I want to know how accurate my 'intuitions' are...

[SEAT 81A]

I work in the HK office of a European bank. The general policy is to fly with the airline with the lowest fair (direct flight only).

However, my boss added one condition: exclude those with a bad record or perceid unsafe, such as Korean, Air China, Garuda etc. He said that it is too costly for the banks's reputation if one of their staff lost their life on business trip only because the bank asked him/her to fly an unsafe airline to save some money.

[Grandad Flyer]

I have my own personal "blacklist" which is more based on what goes on up front and maintenance, stuff like that.
I don't exclude low cost carriers just because they are low cost! Mind you, I do know that passengers have asked check in staff if the pilots were qualified, because they thought that as it was a cheap airline, they might not be!!!!
Cost of the flight is totally irrelevant in my reckoning.

[I'd rather]

Seat 81A, who do fly on internal flights in China? Are any of them any good (apart from Dragonair, which I assume is ok)?

A friend of mine was on a China Southern flight recently; flying doesn't bother her, but even she was a bit nervous...sounded like a bit of an experience.

[SEAT 81A]

Safty of airlines in China has improved significantly and statistically, they are one on the safiest airline in the past few years. In fact, a lot of the past accidents relate to the old Russian plane they have. Now they probably have the newest fleet in the world.

To illustrate, HK people consider indifferent between China Eastern and Dragon Air when flying to Shanghai. Dragon Air is just about 10% more (in past it was >50%) than Eastern and this reflects mainly the difference in inflight service.

Among the many airlines in China, Eastern is the best follow by Southern. Most domestic flights are brand new 737/757 or MD8X

By the way, Dragon Air is a HK based airline..... (I know someone will argue that HK is part of China!)

[Biggles Flies Undone]

I’ve had a request or two for my personal ‘black list’. Well, it’s just that – personal – not written down and largely a matter of personal preference and gut feeling. It’s certainly not my place to indulge in what is, to a fair extent, speculation – although if anyone has a specific carrier in mind I’ll let them have what info I have if they drop me an e mail.

Preconceived ideas can be misleading and, just as a matter of interest, here are a couple of thoughts regarding airlines that have received a mention in this thread:

Aeroflot. A lot of people confuse the ‘old’ operation (which included all the small regional and national airlines) with the current Aeroflot Russian International Airlines. Aeroflot’s fleet of Western-built aircraft is modern and expanding – and since the Airbus loss in 1994 has an enviable loss record.

AirTran – a couple of press snips: <<AirTran Airways has been recognised by the Federal Aviation Administration for developing improved techniques to assure the quality of inspections of a component in the horizontal stabilisers of Boeing DC-9, 717 and MD-80 aircraft.” "The work of the AirTran Airways team is recognized by the FAA as a major endeavor to improve aviation safety," said Ben Coleman, Safety Program Manager, Airworthiness, at the FAA's Orlando, Florida, Flight Standards District Office. "They contributed significantly to our ongoing efforts to enhance the safety of flight wherever and whenever possible.">> << This is not the first time AirTran Airways maintenance personnel have been cited by the FAA for excellence. This year, for the fifth year in a row, AirTran Airways earned the FAA's Aviation Safety Program "Special Recognition Award," an honour bestowed upon those carriers that achieve above and beyond the required levels of safety training for their aviation mechanic technicians.>>

None of the foregoing is any form of recommendation or otherwise on my part. I’m just trying to demonstrate that reputations (good or bad) are not the only aspects of an operation that should be considered. Here’s a parting thought – if you were flying to (say) a South American country, would you feel happier with a major European or North American Carrier, or the country’s own national airline with its’ better knowledge of local operating conditions?

[pax domina]

Thanks BFU (and not just for the usual smile :) )! This was the sort of thing I was wondering about . . . the many variables to be considered (including local operating conditions) and the difference between public perceptions and reality.

[Jim lovell]

If you're concerned about safety then travel with one of the bigger/"well known" airlines- e.g American, Delta, QF, KLM etc etc. These days however the majority of airlines are operating new generation aircraft like the 777/A330/A340- this includes most asian airlines also, so the possibility of mechanical trouble is quite low! The pilot training however is a seperate matter