Thomas Cook return to Caselle moments after take off

[howiehowie93]

Seen this on the Daily Mail www:

Pictured: Hundreds of gallons of fuel leak from Thomas Cook holiday jet seconds after take-off | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1252863/Pictured-Hundreds-gallons-fuel-leak-Thomas-Cook-holiday-jet-seconds-off.html)

Says there's no fuel dump system on a 757 - really?

regards
H

[PT6A]

Why do you find it so strange that it does not have a fuel jettison capability?

PT6A

[puff m'call]

Not exactly a major drama unless I guess you're one of the great unwashed sitting on the right side behind the wing :eek:

Probably only had full wings anyway so it would help reducing to MLW for the return.

I no longer fly the 757 but it looks like it's coming from the underwing vent anyway, not a hole in the wing before the rumours start.

Oh well breaks up a mundane day for the boys/girls, something to write in the log book.

Safe flying one and all.

[vs69]

Some truly mind numbing comments on that mail article, mind you it IS the daily mail..... Great pics though!

[bigjames]

fourth photo is best...nice shot of the wake vortices. of course article did not pick that up...

[DC10RealMan]

I wondered if I had mis-read it as it did not mention 1) Hero pilot 2) Congested areas 3) Narrowly avoiding schools 4) Terrified onlookers

[lomapaseo]

Call me curious, what location is the fuel emanating from on the underside of the wing? It doesn't look like a typical vent area behind the wing.

Is it a case of an interior leak making it's way out?

I have seen two fuel dumps close up (one intentional and one accidental) and they didn't look like this

curious

[FlyboyUK]

Looks like the vent from the surge tank

[TeachMe]

PT6A, I read the OP's comment as firmly tongue in cheek. . .

[aviatordom]

More billy bull:mad: from uneducated and quick thinking passengers, this was one of the comments:

"I would rather pay for my cup of coffee and fly on a new aircraft, than go on something this old!!
Easyjet and Ryanair, 15 years in service, not one SINGLE crash!!
Reason? New aircraft, regularly replaced (sold on to airlines like Thomas Cook, Thomson, BMI etc)

- Dr. Henry Wilkes, Guildford, 22/2/2010 14:19"

:ugh::ugh:

Makes my blood boil!

[Nicholas49]

"dramatic moment"
"packed British holiday jet"
"just minutes after take-off..."
"major situation alert"
"terrified passengers"
"immediate wave of alarm through the plane"

Good to see all the old sensationalist clichés made their way into this article. I expected nothing less from such a quality newspaper.

[raffele]

I agree - complete non-event, but some fantastic pictures!

[lomapaseo]

Looks like the vent from the surge tank

OK

But just how much fuel and be dumped overboard this way unintentionally?

I woud be a little worried if the aircraft came to a stop with running engines with this rate of fuel leak

[Caudillo]

"dramatic moment"
"packed British holiday jet"
"just minutes after take-off..."
"major situation alert"
"terrified passengers"
"immediate wave of alarm through the plane"



So there's no apparent drama from where a punter is sat?

It could well have been full.

Just minutes - true, it's very emotive, replace with soon.

Major situation alert - I was in the area and heard Turin was closed due to an emergency, I heard diversions. Minor stuff.

People who aren't au fait with flying every week do, believe it or not, get frightened of flying. Most passengers would reasonably be afraid.

No alarm whatsoever. Never felt your heart skip a beat when you had to do an emergency stop on the road?

The tired old cliché is trotting out the usual garbage about journalistic reports on aviation incidents that are newsworthy to people who don't have to deal with them day in and day out.

[aerolearner]

The surge tank valves are located in that area

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4048/4377069974_796f479497.jpg

[tarmac-]

As the dramatic sequence of photographs shows the fuel was leaking even as the undercarriage doors were closing and the trail it left is clearly evident against the azure sky

:D

Full of brain this guy.

[KUMOOZ]

Yup , you are correct, however they are INSIDE the tank.

The vent /surge tank NACA scoop is located at the outermost part of the wing. Other than a ruptured manhole panel it is probably coming from the overpressure relief valve. Seems like it was doing its job, why is another matter!

[tourops]

Do you have to go on an acting course to be able to "dramatically radio the control tower" ?

:hmm:

TO

[paulthornton]

Do you have to go on an acting course to be able to "dramatically radio the control tower" ?

Not at all, enthusiastic amateurs are encouraged. You just have to ensure that your headset is on at a theatrically jaunty angle and then deliver your mayday as a flawless Shakespearean soliloquy :}

[JanetFlight]

"I would rather pay for my cup of coffee and fly on a new aircraft, than go on something this old!!
Easyjet and Ryanair, 15 years in service, not one SINGLE crash!!
Reason? New aircraft, regularly replaced (sold on to airlines like Thomas Cook, Thomson, BMI etc)

- Dr. Henry Wilkes, Guildford, 22/2/2010 14:19"

Wowwwww....Whoever it is, that Doc Wilkes really shall deserve a Nobel...Not in doctorship...but in Sillyness..Dahhhh:ugh:

[Volume]

Is the overpressure valve on the 757 a reversible one or a burst disc ?

[brakedwell]

I experienced this in 1988 with a brand new Air Europe 757 when the starboard over pressure valve let go after refuelling in Olbia, resulting in an impressive fuel leak and an unscheduled night stop. Happy days!

[Basil]

Well I think it was a very artistic article what with the 'azure' and 'dramatic' bits.

Gushing white 'gainst azure sky
Clear kerosene discloses alpha brink
Dramatis personae enquire why
and seat 2A asks for a drink.

I thank you :p

[greenfield]

Might not have been so routine if the fuel had been ignited by the engines! remember Concorde at CDG.

[Basil]

greenfield,

Good point and understandable concern. There are a few differences:

1. The B757 fuel spill APPEARS to come from the surge tank vent area designed to release fuel and well away from the engine exhaust.
2. Concorde had a ruptured tank close to the engine.
3. Concorde had the afterburners lit.

backtrack, Just going for another look. No, don't know and not sure if my B757 manuals are still in the loft.

[Mr Scoop]

3. Concorde had the afterburners lit.
Basil, I'm sure Concorde was equipped with a reheat system.
Unless I am mistaken, afterburner is a term used by colonials.

[Capot]

Now that we've had our fun mocking the reporter, quite rightly, can any experts (let's say B757 type-rated engineers and/or knowledgeable B757 pilots) help with exactly what happened, and why it happened?

The following seem to be knowledgeable, especially after seeing the layout diagram...

Looks like the vent from the surge tank

The vent /surge tank NACA scoop is located at the outermost part of the wing. Other than a ruptured manhole panel it is probably coming from the overpressure relief valve. Seems like it was doing its job, why is another matter!

Could I suggest the leak is from one of the fuel measuring dripsticks - probably the outermost?

It's a bit difficult to tell from the photos, but I think the NACA vents are further outboard.

[Tyres O'Flaherty]

Afterburners ?

As I understand it, the investigation put said the fuel fire was ignited by damaged U/C wiring.

The burner flames couldn't migrate forward enough at speed/slipstream to start it.

[Basil]

Trying to KISS.
Conc report said eng ignition and propagation POSSIBLE but u/c spark more LIKELY.
In future I'll try to write longer, more accurate posts and refrain from soiling my lips with colonial expressions even if I consider them more readily understandable by the reader :ok:

[Feathers McGraw]

Since a 757 has high bypass engines, perhaps the correct colonial expression to have used would be "augmentor". Wouldn't it?

:ok:

[flyinthesky]

I think that the most probable cause for the leak has been given. It is more than likely a failed overpressure valve.

Would the fuel ignite? From that position, I would say not. It is emanating from the tip and as can be seen from the pics, the fuel trail is being picked up by the wing vortices, which if anything move it away from the engine exhaust trail. Even so, the speed of the aircraft means that it is extremely unlikely for the exhaust to be able to ignite the fuel.

With that said, it is certainly an unsettling sight for passengers in the cabin and it's certainly not one I would want to see from the flight deck. Yes, the article is a bit sensationalised but hey it's the Daily Mail. We expect that.

The Flight Deck did exactly what they were supposed to and got her on the ground. Best possible result.

Aircraft are machines, which means they will from time to time go wrong. Unavoidable, no matter how well they are maintained.



Having just received a Flight Safety Bulleting from the company about this episode, I can now say that it was indeed the RH overpressure valve that failed.
Case closed, moving on!

[KUMOOZ]

V

The overpressure valve is seated on spring loaded balls, a little like the old fashioned bathroom cabinet door ball catches and simply has to be reset after 'blowing' off.

The O/P valve is a secondary measure to prevent the tank popping the rivets in the case that the vent surge line is blocked for some reason. As stated the vent surge tank is at the outermost part of the wing and this leak is clearly further inboard.

The fuel measuring sticks even in the event of snapping would not cause a leak as they are sticks contained in a sealed tube and not like the old fashioned 'drip sticks'. A magnetic donut rides outside the tube inside the tank and floats on top of the fuel. when the magnet on the stick meets the magnet of the donut (through the wall of the tube) the stick is held in position.

In terms of danger, if it was the O/P valve then it was doing exactly as designed and there was no fire danger. Its why the valve is located well outboard and not in front of the engine! However no pilot would take the sight or report of fuel pissing out of a wing lightly and IMHO an immediate return was absolutely right.

Good job guys!

oops didnt read last line of post above.....soz

[Nopax,thanx]

Perhaps someone should ask Dr. Henry Wilkes his age, and how many mistakes older doctors make.......:rolleyes:


Basil - class! :ok:

[brakedwell]

While you are it, ask the dear doctor if he comes from Tunbridge Wells :}

[dash6]

Hundreds of gallons? Whats the betting...200kg..300?.. Less?

[Torque2]

800 kgs apparently.

[lakerman]

Re post 3 from puff m'call, I do take umbridge to your remark about the great unwashed in your post. As a passenger and a licensed engineer for over 44 years in the industry, I would be worried seeing the fuel p*****g out from under the wing of any aircraft though not from a fire point of view, and yes, I do shower probably as often as you do.
I am dissapointed in some of the arrogant remarks that are left on this forum by both engineering and flight deck staff who should know better. This forum is read by a lot of people who are interested in any event that happens in aviation and are not part of the industry.
Remember puff m'call, those great unwashed also pay your wages.

[ThreadBaron]

You just have to ensure that your headset is on at a theatrically jaunty angle and then deliver your mayday as a flawless Shakespearean soliloquy

Mayday! Or not Mayday!
That is the question.
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous reporting,
Or to take arms against a sea of Jet A
And, by supposing, vent it. To fly, to sleep
No more – and by a sleep to say we end
The heartache and the thousand natural shocks
That flight is heir to – ‘tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wished. To fly, to sleep
To sleep, perchance to scream. Ay, there's the rub,
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come,
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil, ...

... No traveler returns, puzzles the will
And makes us rather bear those ills we have
Than fly to others that we know not of?
Thus conscience does make cowards of us all,
And thus the native hue of resolution
Is sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought,
And enterprises of great pitch, yaw and moment
With this regard the wake vortex turn awry,
And lose the name of action.—Soft you now!
The fair PF! Nymph, in thy orisons
Be all thy sins reported.

[JustOccurred2Me]

Nice TB, but perhaps a short, sharp snap of Daily Mail Haiku would be more appropriate?


Kerosene gushes
Quickly from the starboard wing
Passengers panic.

[Will Hung]

because of the amount of fuel leaking there wasn't enough to get back to Turin.

Pure class !

Talking of Tunbridge Wells, where's the dreaded Rainboe these days ?

[Basil]

where's the dreaded Rainboe these days ?
Yes, hope he's OK. Can't remember if he posts under another name.

[merlinxx]

Why can't you non industry 'Numpties' just bog off and leave this tread to those who fly and/or maintain these aircraft. The Daily Mail (so called knowledgeable scribes) know diddley squat:ugh: Ignore these puerile type people:=

[BOAC]

It could indeed have been the good doctor sitting next to me at Edinburgh in the cabin of a very smart BA 737-200 (some 20+ years old at the time, but resplendent in its glistening new cabin interior) looking at the DanAir 737-400 (3 years old) on the next stand and commenting on the nice new aircraft that BA had unlike..........................:ugh:

[gwillie]

Ignore these puerile type peopleRight!.....'guess that's why you took the time to post, huh?

And, oh,...leave this tread to those who flyI presume you meant "thread? ('Had to have beena typo, that...)

[Will Hung]

Merlin, please show some respect to the sort of people that pay your salary.

[rjay259]

Ratmanon,

Sorry what about the turkish 737-800 that crashed at EHAM, that was months old I think, yet due to the crew getting misleading info and not dealing with it in a expeditious manner it plopped onto the floor hard.

The system did a job it had to for whatever reason, we should be glad that it did.

Have you seen the state of the NHS lately?

I will rest there.

259

[Double Zero]

RJay, I ( trained initially in general then aircraft engineering, then became a pro' photographer on Harrier & Hawk trials etc ) rather prefer your point of view re. ' The Doctor ' !

Of course there is the point that being a Doc' he can probably afford a new Boeing off his own bat; I have seen Test Pilots being VERY careful when about to fly a brand new aircraft, while a comment I heard more than once was that aircraft are over-maintained, and like any machine tend to like common use, rather than constantly being taken apart.

I am not a nervous passenger, and when in small aircraft I try to be useful, if it's only keeping a lookout ( which has paid off more than once ); but seeing gallons of fuel p'ing out would certainly grab my attention, and I'd rather not be part of the " probably won't ignite " experiment...

BTW, I know all American products, be they buildings, space-ships or aircraft, seem to have venting sized to suit Bruce Willis, but does the Boeing really have manhole covers ?!

All that remains is to say well done crew and not so Daily Mail, so no surprises.

[dwhite-montrose]

Some do - 2ALHwJsIHYE

[rjay259]

Double 0,

I too would never ever wish to see fuel peeing out of the plane, would scare the hell out of me.

I do know that when things start to do something abnormal they do it for some sort of reason. Never nice tho.

Good on the crew shame on, as always, the papers.

[27ace]

@lakerman re post#38,

When I last took umbridge, I ended up hopelessly lost, didn't get to umtown at all... I believe we should all take umbrage at such spelling.:E

[lomapaseo]

newer aircraft don't crash as often as older ones, good observation from a lay person.

Airlines that can afford new aircraft probably can afford to run them properly.


The theory sounds plausible but the data doesn't support it.

The accident history for many aircraft types exhibits a bath-tub curve. High at the end and high at the beginning.

This was puzzled over and after peeling away some more layers of insight it was postulated that it was a learning curve (not worn out or mis-designed airplanes).

To some extent the data might support some airlines, that can't afford anything but hand-me-downs, also still learning how to operate to age old lessons-learned

[lomapaseo]

ratmanon

PS Oh, I just saw lomapaseo's post ! OK so loma, the data doesn't support it ?

Split the service life of the worlds jet fleet (say 30 yrs) into two. You really believe that the crash rate (adjusted) of the fleet aged 1-15 yrs is more than the fleet aged 16-30 yrs. Come on man, you need more nous than that if you're going to fly jets...


be careful of your interpretations of what I said else I'll have to take you to the woodshed:}

I did say it was a bathtub curve. I didn't say the exact shape of the bath tub. For all I know you could be imagining a half elipsoid or shower stall :)

I suppose I could always drag out the plots but it still wouldn't convince many of you.

[rjay259]

Sorry Ratmanon but I dont think so, to many flaws for your defense of "the Doc".

An aircraft that doesnt fly, crashes less than one that does,
A pilot who doesnt fly, crashes less than one who does.

The age of an aircraft, I dont think will have anything to do with if it will crash/ have a failure of a system any more than a newer one. They are all maintained to a specific standard. I flew on a brand new 777, its first pax. flight and an avionics computer failed. Age has nothing to do with it.

What the Doctor may percive compared to what he may know are two very seperate things.
Have you seen Ryanairs safety record? Several overruns that they blamed on bad runways when they did not perform the correct procedure, forcing pilots to fly under threat of job loss. But they do have brand new spanking aircraft, so things should be ok.

Plus I think there are more older jets flying (15+ years) than new ones.

[gatbusdriver]

I guess the good doc will be flying Ryanair whenever he can, I fine fleet of new 737's, much safer than flying with BA in their aging fleet..............how many incidents/accidents have ryanair had over the last few years?

It was, in reality, a stupid statement to make.

The above is not a go at ryanair, just trying to point out that it was a silly thing to say. BA have a very old fleet, yet their safety record is very good (the worst incident that recently happened involved one of their newer 777's)