Watch Out For African Atc's

[BEEDEE]

Flew from Kinshasa to Lubumbashi yesterday and on the approach to rwy 07, the ATC told us ''wind calm". All the way down on final, our FMS wind was indicating about 300/25-30 and the aircraft handling (severe drift and turbulence) on final confirmed this. There was no doubt during the touchdown that we were landing with a strong crosswind/tailwind (10-15 knots at least) and this was confirmed by the movement of the bushes next to the runway.

About an hour earlier, another of our aircraft from Johannesburg had experienced something similar except that they ended up landing with an even stronger tailwind component, after being given "wind calm" by the ATC.

While completing our turnaround, an Ethiopian 737 landed on rwy 07, after also being given "wind calm" by the ATC. However, the wind was not calm but was, in fact, the strong tailwind experienced earlier, unbeknown to the Ethiopia pilots. End result.......they finished up with the nosewheel buried in the soft ground 4 or 5 metres past the end of the runway - VERY soft ground after recent heavy rains.

A little later, there followed some very heated exchanges between ATC and the 3 aircraft who were all still on the frequency. ATC was sticking to his "calm wind" story and was determined to defend himself and his future career as an ATC. None of us were buying his story, needless to say. However, try in English to get through to an ATC whose first language is ??? and whose second language is French and you're fighting a losing battle. They're "OK-ish" (well, sort of) as long as they're reciting their ATC phraseology parrot fashion but try to engage them in a "conversation"...... :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

No doubt, two hazard reports and one accident/incident report will be filed (I've already filed my hazard report) but I won't be holding my breath waiting for an enquiry and, even less, any result of the enquiry.

[Soap Box Cowboy]

I always find it best to use a bit of caution when listening to ATC. Some of the lads are on the ball. And some you wonder how they manage to find their way home at the end of the day.

But one must also remember the mentality in some places where free thought is discouraged right from primary school, learning by rote and not upsetting the apple cart. So if his 30 year old wind indicator says it's calm, well then it must be true, after all he is on the ground :}

[ettore]

African Press Agency - Item (http://www.apanews.net/apa.php?page=show_article_eng&id_article=118619) :uhoh:

[PLTFORLIFE]

I find it quite strange the title of your post as this has happened to me in all parts of the world, but at the end of the day the responsibility is solely yours. If you have equipment on board informing you about the winds as you stated in your post and you choose to exceed your tail-wind limitations then I think the problem is yours. After you landed obviously you did not give a pilots report as you stated other a/c landed after you and almost overran. Brother's keeper:ugh:

[EladElap]

BEEDEE first time flying in darkest Africa? :}:}:}:}:}:}:}

Have heard and seen that kind of thing going on all over this wonderful continent of ours! Unfortunately when flying around up there (North of SA borders), you need to help the controllers out, and never take what they say to be the truth!

[galaxy flyer]

BEEDEE

They have ATC in Africa? Was unaware of it. :ugh:

GF

[DA-10mm]

did you expect anything less than sub-par ATC handling on that continent?

as G-F says: "they have ATC?"

[JTrain]

There's also a wind sock in the grassy area between the ITAB hangar and the passenger terminal building. Would have been off your left as you landed on runway 7.

Fortunately your landing worked out alright - imagine how it would've felt to explain to your CP that you overshot like the Ethiopian B737 after having flight data saying you were landing with a strong tailwind. It is Congo.....

[Nightfire]

I agree to what most people have posted so far. You say you even noticed the tailwind during the approach (high sinkrate during the finals while staying on the GS or PAPI's).
So why didn't you go around?
Supposing, in a different scenario, the surface wind would have been correct, but you encountered unpredictive windshear, what would you have done then?

ATC screwed up, no doubt. But you know that in certain areas of the world the safety-standards, the training standards, the infrastructure and so on, are extremely bad. Even if this has been your first flight into that particular field, you should have been prepared for this sort of thing. Didn't you get a briefing or do a self-familiarization before your flight?

So of course you can be angry at the stupid controller who was sitting on his tower, operating a 40-year old radio and little other functioning equipment, who doesn't speak proper English nor has he been properly trained. But in the end, it was you who was flying the plane, and you have only to blame yourself for forcing the landing.

Like you already said - your report will change absolutely nothing at all. It's Africa. You will see things like this happening all the time. Be happy your plane stayed on the runway, and think again about what has happened.

[JEP]

PAPI and GS in Lubumbashi ????

[Nightfire]

I've never been to Lubumbashi (Kinshasa, yes), but to plenty other airports allover Africa. It could have happened almost anywhere.

[LightHorse]

Gotta love "Watch out for African controllers".
South AFRICA is on which continent?
Must we watch out for them too?

[Nightfire]

Gotta love "Watch out for African controllers".
South AFRICA is on which continent?
Must we watch out for them too?

I don't like generalizing "Africa" either, but I didn't want to go also into that thing now. Of course you're right. :ok:

[Bloodhound]

Point taken about decision making,but when is an ATC not an ATC? Can these people not just go home and leave these airports unmanned?This would certainly place the onus on the pilot, which it does in any case, and there would be no discussions about bad ATC in Africa, cos there is none, as is also the case anyway. In Africa we are getting way too used to non-delivery of services, of what ever nature, and the fault will always lie with you, no-matter who you are. Save some cash, and worries about having to think about wether ATC is with it or not,and back to basics, decision-making in an uncontrolled environment.:ok:

[dynamite dean]

Or how about the story where the windsock was rapped around the pole...controller said wind must be calm meanwhile it was howling!

[thats entertainment!]

Beedee maybe familiarise yourself with the "you know you are in afica when" thread, without the benefit of a catholic flying experience to date it might help fill in some of the gaps :}.

[126,7]

poljot

I think you mean Überlingen. The accident at Würenlingen had nothing to do with ATC.

As to the non-delivery of service on the continent (north of the Limpopo LightHorse): Its all about training, education, more training, proper equipment etc. Some of those guys have probably never done any official training and been doing the same job for many years without any outside input. I doubt it will get better any time soon and I am also of the opinion that some places would probably be safer without the uneducated ATCO's interference.

[High 6]

I think you will probably find that the ATC anemometer is broken so the gauge in the tower constantly reads calm, even in a mini tornado. I had a very similar experience in Islamabad in Pakistan and mentioned it to the ATC guy after landing, by the time we went to depart in approx 1 hr the problem was solved.

I do agree with the principle that the buck does stop in the LHS, everyone else is there to help, but in the end you captain, make the call. Sometimes ATC can be more of a hinderance then assistance, so it is up to the commander to decide and act accordingly.

[latetonite]

If you can see the wind, where is the problem? Africa will teach you how to fly very quickly, in general. If 10 kt wind from the rear, or 15 from the side poses you a problem, you have to go back to basics. Ask the C206 or Caravan pilots. If you want to fly by the book, stay out of Africa. Pilotage is a skill which has to develop rather swiftly in Africa, or you end up dead.
Glad I did it. Tremendous experience.

[DASHER 8]

I dont agree that its always prudent to rely on FMS info only regarding tailwinds on short final.
Any FMS/FMC takes a while to update its position and speed info regardless of whether its using GPS, DME, VOR, INS or a combination of those for its position info.
The case i am referring to is Bloenfontein RWY 20.
In the winter months the wind on the ground is usually calm or even light from the North as per the reliable info given by the ATC's in Bloem.
There is usually a strong inversion at around 1000ft AGL with the associated wind shift.
Typically on final approach to RWY 20 the FMS indicates a 10-20 knot tailwind right down to touchdown, which simply is not the case.
I dont believe we should be doing go arounds on every second approach because of the FMS tailwind info. It simly does not update that quickly.
Fortunately in Bloem we have good reliable ATC's whose info is spot on.

I guess in Africa its prudent to use all info sources to make the right descision. FMS, ATC, smoke on the ground if it's visual, other pilots reports and your general gut feel.

Lubumbashi like many other airports north of the Limpopo will always be a challenge.

Good Luck ;)

[The Ancient Geek]

I guess in Africa its prudent to use all info sources to make the right descision. FMS, ATC, smoke on the ground if it's visual, other pilots reports and your general gut feel.

Lubumbashi like many other airports north of the Limpopo will always be a challenge.



Every airport should have a windsock or two.
The decline in standards is all part of the decolonisation process. Hastily trained locals, often with mediocre language skills, pushed into the job to replace the expats. Give them another 30 years or so and they will catch up, it just takes time and training.

<oldphart muttermode>
We never had these problems back when Andre was in his tower and the world was a better place.
</opmm>

[Rico 25]

Like others on PPRuNe I was not too long ago working as a Bush Pilot in the Okovango Delta in Botswana. Many times the ATC is unconventional compared to Europe and you must keep your wits about you-this applies to even such simple information such as wind direction/speed etc. Out here in Africa you have to be absolutely in control of 'everything'-some pilots from Oz, Europe or USA will will shocked at first but seasoned pilots will understand what I mean!

One time whilst I was waiting to take off at Maun, Botswana I witnessed an American registered Gulstream IV on short finals asking for confirmation for Clearance to Land-needless to say the tension in the female co-pilot's voice was very 'stressed'-they were literally about 50 ft AGL on short finals at this stage!

Safe Flying and have Fun,

Rico 25

[Siguarda al fine]

If one cannot take a joke one should not fly in the DRC EVER.
DRC is for Aviators not people with ATPL's gained in cosseted enviroments.
Long Live FBM ATC bods.

[4runner]

Controllers suck in most of Africa period. Lack of training, rote memorization, inability to multitask, lack of accountability, etc. But let's stop making excuses for this crap. Let's have some ICAO audits of this garbage that passes for ATC here. I'm tired of the African blame game. If you guys want respect, you have to earn it. You have yet to do so at this point. Quit whining with this post-colonial BS and man up and take control of your future. This is just one example of the failure of this entire continent to take care of business...

[Marty33]

ATC does not fly my aircraft, I do. I am responsible. In Africa, ATC is mostly a necessary evil, to be endured, never trusted. To get angry and upset in your scenario is , IMHO, ridiculous. You are not landing at LHR, or SFO. You are landing your aircraft in a third world country with third world facilities, skills, and mentalities. You must remember that, and you will not expect much more.

Slainte