Cabin crew brace position

[MAN777]

This is a genuine request for information (trying to settle an argument) neither of us know the truth !!:)

Do the cabin crew seats have 3 or 4 point harnesses ?

Also what is the correct brace position when seated using such a harness ?

Can anyone direct me to an online diagram for this brace position.

Thanks

[Dawdler]

From what I have seen, the seats are rearward facing (at least at the front of the cabin,) and have four point safety belts. I have never seen the "brace" position demonstrated in those seats. I would have thought that the correct thing to would be to brace oneself back against the head rest to reduce whiplash tendencies.

[CallBell]

The brace position is to sit upright, head against the head rest, hands tucked under your thighs and feet together, flat on the floor with heels a little behind your knees.

[tomkins]

Depends if you are forward or rear facing.Whichever, you're toes or heels should be pointing towards the rear;

[Two-Tone-Blue]

Interesting - most of the safety cards I have read say that rear-facing pax should fold their arms across their chest. Not under our thighs. Why should it be different for CC?


[Just to prove I do actually read the cards, as SLF]. ;)

[Matt101]

wiki answer, which agrees with what I was trained to do in the UK.

In rear facing seats, the attendant should be sitting with their back and head firmly against the back of the jumpseat, their knees and feet together and slightly in front of or behind the knee (depending on the individual airlines procedures) - commonly referred to as "toes to tail". In European carriers, the hands can be placed behind the head and hands one on top of the other and the elbows brought in to meet, taking care that the forearm does not cover the ear and restrict hearing. This position provides the flight attendant protection to the face from any flying debris (as it will impact their elbows) yet still provides them with the ability to view the cabin and not muffle their commands. In the United States, the FAA does not recommend placing the hands behind the neck as their research suggests such actions can cause unnecessary loading on the neck and spine during an impact.[1] Instead, US flight attendants are typically taught to sit on their hands, palms facing the ceiling, underneath their upper legs. Other variations include clasping the hands on the knees or using one arm to "hug" the opposing arm.
For forward facing jumpseats, the position is exactly the same but with the feet behind the knees, with some airlines requiring flight attendants to tuck their chin in to their chest ("bow to the captain") to reduce the likelihood of whiplash injuries.
There is also a third brace position for flight attendants, and that is the "normal" brace position. This is adopted by the attendant for every take off and landing and provides them with protection from any sudden emergencies and allows them to adopt the full brace position quickly should they need to. The only difference between the normal brace and the full brace position is that the attendants will either fold their arms across their stomach or immobilize them by placing their hands under their thighs with the palms up. This position forms part of every flight attendant's "sixty second review" - a technique being adopted by airlines whereby the attendant will go over various factors in their head during the take-off and landing sequence. Things such as "how do I open my door?", "where is the next nearest exit?", "am I over land or water?" and "what commands will I shout" are just a few of the questions an attendant will ask themselves. The belief is that this mental review focuses the attendant on the safety-critical role they have during take-off and landing and will result in faster decision making and adaptation to the scenario.

[CornishFlyer]

Yeah that's right Matt101. Must be different in Ireland but it's definitely hands one on top the other on the head with elbows drawn together for UK airlines

[Two-Tone-Blue]

Fair call [Wiki being the Gospel] ... but why are pax told to adopt different positions? Don't our eyes and ears and necks deserve the same treatment as CC?

As for the few milliseconds potentially available to adopt the "full brace", I think someone somewhere is allowing theory to overtake reality.

Generally, I get a faint feeling that "Opinion is divided on the subject, BlackAdder". ;)

[CornishFlyer]

TTB-the reason is that pax sit forward facing and crew mainly sit rear facing. For forward facing crew seats the position is the same but instead of leaning forward leaning against the seat in front, the head just tilts forward so the chin rests on the chest instead

Don't think CC get "special treatment"

[TightSlot]

Don't our eyes and ears and necks deserve the same treatment as CC?

Pax are told to adopt different brace positions purely out of malice. There has been no research whatsoever, anywhere on brace positions for passengers - It has historically simply been made up by the wicked airlines in the hope of causing as much damage as possible to customers. CC are infinitely more valuable and therefore worth greater protection. I'm impressed that you have managed to cut through this subterfuge and single handedly discover the awful truth.

Of course it's also possible that since the seat design, strength and harness design, not to mention occupant training and responsibilities are all different between a crew jumpseat and a passenger seat, the brace position has been determined to be different by experts who have done extensive research... Nah, that just doesn't seem right somehow.

As for the few milliseconds potentially available to adopt the "full brace", I think someone somewhere is allowing theory to overtake reality.

The brace position exists primarily for use in a pre-planned emergency, but also for people to assume in any kind of sudden emergency, usually prompted by shouts from the crew. In a majority of incidents there will be ample time for those pax familiar with the brace position to assume it. I don't mind if you come on PPRuNe with questions, in an attempt to enhance your level of knowledge - I'd be delighted if you could do so without making oh so clever assumptions about the industry when you clearly know little about the technical aspects.

BTW - for the OP - the harness design is a variable, across manufacturer and type: There are different buckles and harnesses, and changes have been made over time - newer models of a type may vary from older models. The Brace position is determined by the Licensing authority of the airline/aircraft, and therefore varies throughout the world.

[Two-Tone-Blue]

@ TightSlot ... excuse me, I'm still giggling at that superb riposte!! :ok:

OK - REAR-facing Pax have different harness and seats. I'm just puzzled by the different [and indeed apparently variable] postures. You have highlighted some of that, for which thanks.

"... when you clearly know little about the technical aspects." Please skip the ad hominems. I started flying in 1963, I'm not an aviation idiot. I was asking a genuine question.

[Chuchinchow]

TTB-the reason is that pax sit forward facing and crew mainly sit rear facing.


Has Cornish Flyer never flown J-class in a 777 or a 744?

[Matt101]

ooooh TTB you have been Mod'd lol

In seriousness though the wiki page has some details on studies that were undertaken to come up with PAX brace positions (why for instance in the UK it is all the way forward and hands on head whereas the rest of the world is hands on the seat in front or grab ankles). I know Wikipedia is not the be all and end all (indeed they can't even spell Encyclopaedia), but taken with a pinch of salt the article is quite interesting.

I assume by rear facing seats you would refer to BA (only rear facing pax seats I can think of). The answer is I don't know but I can think of a few reasons with regards the shape of the seat and the fact that crew are in a four point harness as opposed to a lap strap which may make a difference.

[Two-Tone-Blue]

Thanks, Matt. There has to be some reason, and I guess the different harness point is the best on offer. I'll have to settle for that. Grateful for the input. :ok:

[CornishFlyer]

Has Cornish Flyer never flown J-class in a 777 or a 744?

Yes I have but not all J class cabins on 747 or 777 have rear facing seats do they? Now go troll elsewhere newbie

[Matt101]

Yes I have but not all J class cabins on 747 or 777 have rear facing seats do they? Now go troll elsewhere newbie

A BA frequent flyer perhaps? There aren't many of them left so don't me too mean (Tongue in cheek).

[Jackbr]

At QF, same as above but with hands on knees as opposed to under thighs

[starbag]

CornishFlyer Yeah that's right Matt101. Must be different in Ireland but it's definitely hands one on top the other on the head with elbows drawn together for UK airlines

Not all UK airlines Cornish Flyer. We sit with our arms crossed, palms down on our laps. We also sit with our feet away from the seat (either forward or rear facing) in case the jumpseat collapses on landing, our lower legs won't be crushed.

[MAN777]

Thanks for the replies so far.

Tried a wiki search with no result, can I have a clue as to where I might find the entry that has been referred to please.

[CD]

I believe that the wiki link you're looking for can be found here:

Brace Position (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brace_position)

Other sites with additional information include:

TCCA AC 0155 - Brace Positions for Impact (http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/commerce/circulars/ac0155.htm)
FAA ACOB 218 - Brace For Impact Positions (http://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/cabin_safety/regs/acob/media/acob218.rtf)
CCS Jan-Feb 1988 - Positions Brace Passenger for Impact To Reduce Injuries and Fatalities (http://flightsafety.org/ccs/ccs_jan-feb88.pdf)
CCS Nov-Dec 1995 - UK Studies Find That "Legs Back" Brace Position Is Optimal for Forward-facing Passengers (http://flightsafety.org/ccs/ccs_nov_dec95.pdf)
CCS May-Jun 1998 - Studies Reveal Passenger Misconceptions About Brace Commands and Brace Positions (http://flightsafety.org/ccs/ccs_may_june98.pdf)

[ase engineer]

There was a TV programme on the other day, may have been Mythbusters, where they tested dummies in various a/c seats and positions. Results were that the brace position in economy is better for you than not adopting it. It was aslo better to be in Economy than First as the seat in front is very helpful in attenuating your impact.

[SlideBustle]

Also, to add, the reason we crew sit up during our brace position (even in Forward Facing Jumpseats) rather than lean forward like for a forward facing pax seat (rearward pax seat - sat against seat with harms crossed over chest) is because we have shoulder harnesses...

...Which then leads on to the whole ''why do Crew get shoulder harnesses and not pax. Main reason to my knowledge, is it's because we need to be sat upright during an emergency as we need to view pax cabin, pax reaction, activity etc... Basically we need to observe the cabin. Plus, we need to assess an emergency situation. So we can't be leaning forward etc etc.... as this means we won't see what's going on. Pax however, have the (luxury hehe) of having a seat in most cases to rest their head on. Or if they can't reach the seat in front (emergency exit/bulkhead row) then they just lean as low as possible.

Hope this makes sense.

[bmi320]

Some body said in this thread that "
The brace position is to sit upright, head against the head rest, hands tucked under your thighs and feet together, flat on the floor with heels a little behind your knees." Which is wrong you NEVER put your hands under your legs or link your fingers as the is a high risk you breaking your fingers, which means your can't operate you harness or door. Also you dont put your feet behind your knees because they would be under your seat, and if your seat collasped it would brake your legs. If you are facing forward as a crew member you still up right with you head to your chest your harness is like a car seat belt and locks, arms cross on your laps, with your legs back against your seat but not under. If you are facing to the rear you sit the same apart from you head up against the head rest.
Someone asked why the crew have harness its because when there is an emergency we are the ones that you will look to to get you out and if we are hurt we cant do that. At the end of the day thats what we are there for, severing tea and coffee is just a bonus. Also its hard enough get pax just to put a seat belt on let a lone a harness. Let me know is anyone disagrees with anything i have said.

[jetset lady]

bmi320,

It has become obvious from this thread that different airlines and different countries have different brace positions for their crew. No doubt, all of these brace positions have been adopted after careful review of the various studies that have been taken place over the years. And you could probably find fault somewhere with every one of them. For example, hands on lap = nothing to stop your arms flailing out and being broken against doors/cupboards etc on impact. See what I mean? No position is going to be 100% foolproof. Other brace positions aren't necessarily wrong, they are just different.

[bmi320]

jetset lady

Yes i do see you point but the theory of sitting on your hands needs reviewing, in my personal view. By the sound of it you know what you are going on about so you would know that pax dont put their hands on top of there head because they would be crushed in the brace position they put them on the back of their head. Also most crew seats are in the galley or by a door with abit of space around, yes some are close to objects but sure one broken arm is better them ten broken fingers, you still have the other arm to do your job with.

[sixmilehighclub]

but why are pax told to adopt different positions?

Crew normally have a shoulder and lap harness that keeps them in the position they sit in. Pax normally only have a lapstrap, so when bracing they are (forward facing) already leaning forward, and they have less distance to travel in a sudden stop or jolt, causing less risk of damage to their body.

Each airline is different. Each airline carries different equipment, and has different evacuation procedures and commands.
The airline agrees with their governing aviation authority - such as JAA, FAA, CAA.

The authority will look at the Training, Documentation, Procedures and Compliances that an airline wants to implement. If approved (maybe after some adjustments) the airline can then put it into safety procedures, training, safety cards, etc. Regular autiting takes place to ensure these are being maintained correctly.

Airlines will always differ slightly in their procedures as their aircraft type, routes, beliefs differ. This is where the governing aviation bodies come in, to regulate safety for all.

The brace position is to give maximum possible protection. Each brace position on every airline for every person (crew or pax) on board has been considered and developed depending on direction of travel, seat design, configuration, and in conjunction with physics and human physiology.