EK March Roster...The best is yet to come.

[ekpilot]

Got my March roster :mad: Heard from some guys who do their PPC that they are being told it will get much worst before it gets better... BLA BLA BLA! Plus HR is telling us that if we are not happy we can pack our bags and leave:ugh:

How are your rosters?

[oz in dxb]

I have to admit it's a pretty good roster for me.

I have loads of days off and one major trip I bid for. Mind you I'm working my butt off when I'm working. Anyhow it makes up for a ****e roster this month!

Regards,

Oz

[These seats are hard]

Hi i see there are no Standby before ULR this month , must be getting short of crew these days. I don't want to do 92 hours every month ...There are more leaving then coming at the moment i for one didnt recommend any of my friends i don't dislike them that much. They really have Fu@@ed up a good job this lot with there penny grapping. Have heard a couple of flights cancelled due no crew ,wonder what there excuse will be the boss this time...:ugh:

[palm]

Yup, right, my roster is a :}......it s getting worse and worse.
EK201, 1CPT and 2FOS starting the 31. Just check it online. Problem solved for them. 1 Cpt everyday saved.

[Fart Master]

Nothing will change................PRESS 2

[harry the cod]

Sexdriven

Simple. If you're exhausted, it's much safer on one engine cause everything happens....t h a t .......m u c h.....s l o w e r. This gives you have more time to react and in case you screw it up, you end up in the terminal building with less velocity! However, I always insist the F/O's use full reverse. The noise usually wakes me from my micro sleep just in time to handle the radio.

Nowdays, I'm even contemplating shutting one down around 2000' on finals. Not only should this save fuel and make the management think what a great guy I am, it also gives me the practise required to achieve a 5 for my single engine work in the next OPC. :ok:

Of course, this would only be with the F/O's consent and never during LVP's or crosswinds of more than 25kts. That would just be silly.

Harry

[jet576]

95hour block for me... This airline is destroying me:{

[Fellowship of the drink]

EK 201 is 3 pilot from the 28th of March onwards not the 31st.

Is that sand in my company's vaseline jar?

[GormanInkarnati]

93 hours rostered for me:ugh:

[apron]

Gents...with many airlines the fleet you are on can have a major impact on your lifestyle/roster. Is there any preferred fleet at EK?? or ones to steer clear of, if possible?? Is 90 hrs typical of say 4 or 5 trip month?
Cheers

[BigGeordie]

The pain is pretty equally shared. The Airbus fleet is short of pilots at the moment, the 777 is doing more ultra long haul, now with 3 crew not 4.

90 hours is typical of every month at the moment. The problem is not the number of trips (3 or 4 layovers is not too bad) but the number of night turns, especially to India. If the flying were pure long haul it would be better but once you get to about 90 hours they can still fit in a couple of short turns (2 hours block time) to take you right up to 99 hours in 28 days, or 900 in a year.

Minimum legal days off and 99hrs 59 minutes in 28 days seems to be the target at the moment.

In about 7 years here I've never been so tired.

[Kamelchaser]

Just completed 74 hrs in 15 days...west ULR, few days off, far east, few days off, west ULR again. Rediculous now, but even worse when one of those will turn to 3 pilots next month.

This 3 pilot JFK rubbish never worked last time; it won't work this time either. Absolute desperation now given the poor forward planning for pilot numbers this year. (this shortage was forecast by recruiting months ago..but the bean counters further up the foodchain decided they..meaning us..could handle it).

Now it's not money, it's purely a shortage caused by numbers leaving, and a delayed management response to expansion.

[EFC 3 DAYS]

If Emirates wants to schedule pilots to JFK with a crew of three and if the pilots are that upset about it then all that it would take is for one of the three pilots to call SOS while in JFK and tell doctor that he/she is sick. For best results call the SOS line 4 hours prior to pick up in the hotel lobby. The two other guys, assuming EK were smart enough to put 2 captains on the original flight, will be limited to flying to Istanbul at best or possibly Athens. Once there they will be able to sit back and enjoy the rest of the flight home in Business Class which will be flown by a set of pilots EK would have to position from DXB.Of course thats assuming that EK can find an open seat on the continuing flight to DXB. Could be that the same two pilots would get a night off in the enroute alternate city or maybe EK would offload a paying passenger and his/her bags in order to get the crew home. Either way a pain the the @r$e for EK.
On the other hand if EK used 1 CA and 2 FOs for this money saving 3 pilot exercise then they would be well and truely knackered if the CA took ill. I would imagine that a couple of cancellations or enroute diversions due to staff shortages every month would sort the 3 pilot issue out.:eek:
Of course doing that would require a moderately sized pair of minerals and I am not in a position to say whether or no EK pilots have any. Certainly the EK pilots need to change the way they are getting shafted by management. The EK pilots can change the way they are being treated, they just have to take initative. Drop enough pebbles in a pool and you will get a big enough wave. :ok:

[ekpilot]

I am wondering how these 3 men ULR flights will be managed? Probably by the normal FTLs. Like we did a few years ago. Now will you go into discretion when the time is up? Will there be factoring as well? Imagine one captain and 2 f/os and having to factor the captain's time in the bulk. That would actually mean "no captain on board" for the time you rest. I can't accept that. If they want my signature to operate a flight they have to credit me for the whole time.

What do you think?

Hope it is sorted out before we go flying... I heard the pressure in the cooker is pretty high when you refuse discretion... They even put you in discretion without asking by delaying some "annexe" flights on night turns and if you refuse you have to justify... What is it that they don't understand in the word discretion???

[maligno]

can't complain this month...although got inflicted 87 hrs...as long as stay out of dubai im fine.....but the trend is definitely to get worse...get ready guys...!!!!

[sheikhmahandy]

It's a bit sad that I won't be going to NYC again. There is no way I am going with only 3. The magic button number 2 for me!!!!! Tossers!!!:ugh::mad:

[flaphandlemover]

@ Sheikh...

why press 2?

Please drag yourself, after a good night sleep to JFK. Crush then and call SOS...

.. you are tired... press 2 in JFK... The way better way to go...

Rest in the hotel as soon as you have seen the Dr.. your Rest period starts then....

If you have delay... depart towards JFK.. Put the bird down in Keflavik (remote) and get your good rest....:}


Sorry 4 the Passengers. But, do you think anybody wants to fly with a dead tired crew?:=:=:=

[SOPS]

So rostered for 95 (a push through the "92 Cap"), 3 man JFK, no more Standby berfore ULRs, surley to goodness someone in that building must be asking questions!!!!! If this is not desperation, I dont know what is:mad::ugh:

[GoreTex]

unfortunately the company will get away with the 3 men JFK, a few years ago, I had a delay of 20 min and refused to go into discretion and went home, the flight left 7 hrs later. the next day another mate had 90 min delay and did the flight with 3 crew, he came from the boeing to the bus just for the 380.
with tossers like him we will never win.

[PositiveRate876]

Two instances of 'manual insertion' in March, of which one was tailored to take advantage of minimum rest in DXB, and another one maliciously inserted on the day before leave and preceded by numerous days off. :ugh:

[yankee22]

I'm tired of this crap... 85 hours with most of it being back side of the clock. Well, aside from the f$% sim support.

Minimum days off and turn arounds up the ying-yang. I see India night turn arounds so damn much I fell like I could apply for Indian citizenship.

What a bunch of crap.

This place is a joke. Already bad and getting worse by the day.

[GMC1500]

Yes, I'm doing 91:50, but its my bottom bid month, no turns, and yes a stby day before ULR. Worst part of the sched is a 418, which isn't that bad.

[sheikmyarse]

.....never felt better in my life!

[InnocentBystander]

Just be sure to call in sick and state "fatigue" as the reason. Make sure it's been marked in your roster as SKF since crew scheduling will try to not mark it as fatigue and make it look like you "just" called in sick. Unless we create hard evidence for fatigue issues at the airline, nothing will change.

Had my medical recently and talked to the doc about 92+ hr rosters and fatigue, they are very supportive of changing this but can't really do anything unless pilots report unfit due to fatigue.

As per 3-Pilot ULR's, just do one and call in unfit due to fatigue right after and go to the clinic and get a couple days off to recover, hopefuly missing a flight or two. Since we are so incredibly short on pilots, that will throw quite a wrench in the system and cause a lot disruptions.

Remember, without evidence and a paper trail NOTHING will change.

[theidler]

Then I guess it must be another troff who's got two long Oz trips, a UK layover with a return sector through the night, four X days then leave...

'Typically a bunch would be more than four - two is a couple, three and four are called a few, so more than that is often called a bunch.'

[EGGW]

95 hours, good lord. I may have to moderate the moderating with this roster :ugh::ugh::sad:

EGGW

[McGreaser]

........does the bidding system actually work ?:ugh::ugh: Before would get 4 out of 5 of my bids but since 92hrs/max roster l hardly get what l bid for. This month on the advice of fellow "sufferers" didn't bid and lo an' behold....... got most of the flights l had bid for in the previous months........:}

[fatbus]

welcome to the 777, AB not bad this month. ULR 4 pilots SLR 3 pilots same as the bus 3-4 years ago, its not something that is new!

[Nuuk]

Things are getting better, JFK 3 pilots, YYZ on the 380, remains at 4 pilots for a 10 minutes block time difference :ugh: Back to bed, soooooo tired, keep recovering!

[halas]

I don't think the 380 guys are working too hard, so they have to make up hours for them some where....

Originally 94:55 hours, but already one layover trip has been removed from my roster. So l guess l can look forward to STBY, sim support or night turns instead to get me to 91:59 hours for the month.

Have to say it seemed odd having every ULR crew doing standby prior to a trip. A couple each day would suffice.
Having said that, any three-crew JFK may have to have more than usual coverage ULR standby though, if what was going on five years ago is any indication on the 340.

The 414 standby does have to be realigned if it hasn't already. Not much time to get to work from a call out to beat the curfew.

Discretion out of DXB (and other ports)? Been asked and "told" several times, but never accepted and always declined!


halas

[Ramrise]

A quick question from an outsider-

What is discretion? And how does it apply to "out of Dubai"?

Ramrise

[40&80]

It refers to "With or without Vaseline" and it is legal in the Gulf.

[Fellowship of the drink]

Rostered for mid 90's hours in March.

Burning both ends of the Vaseline candle EK?

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Ramrise
Commanders have discretion (up to 3 hours) for use to cover things such as emergencies,delays etc. On a single sector there is normally some "fat" in the schedule between the crews rostered FDP (flying duty period) which consists of a period time to report for the flight and the scheduled flight time.
In the case of such a long flight as this topic crews can report and run out of hours within 15 mins with a small delay (i.e. late pax). If this happens crews can use their discretion or otherwise. You may ask how can it be that a Crew member turns up fit to fly then a few hours later he's not. Difficult one - the landing is some xx hours away. Clearly most posters think 2 crews is the answer, best option for time away from controls. Only 3 crew means less time away. I'm probably safe in saying most (state)airlines use 4 crew

[Altug737]

As a result of all those shortages and problems does EK consider about reducing the minimum flight time requirements for the DEC's and FO's???

[ManaAdaSystem]

Incoming!!!!!!

Take Cover!!!!!

[Silky]

Mr. Angry, is not a max of 2 hours out of DXB and 3 once airborne.....:confused:

[atpcliff]

Hi!

IF EK is flying you guys this much, won't about everyone time out at the end of Oct with the 900 hour yearly max???

cliff
NBO

[BigGeordie]

Cliff,

Yes. That is when they will get really creative with the FTLs. As the title of the thread says, we haven't seen anything yet.

[BYMONEK]

Silky

No, up to 3 hours on any single sector or prior to the last sector on multiple sectors. Otherwise, 2 hours. Also, homebase has nothing to do with it. Rules apply regardless of which airport you're operating from. Misconception amongst some that discretion can't be applied out of home base! ULR rules are specific and different. Rules for 3 man ops confusing and contradictory if you work through the various chapters in the FOM. There again, what can you expect from our manuals.............or should I say, CD's!

Suggest we all start getting to know the FDP's inside out. You gonna need to soon when SMNC are on the mobile discussing discretion for your JFK! :hmm:

[Ramrise]

Thx to Mr Angry.

Its basically the same as "discretion" in Subpart Q then.

The problem with discretion is that they usually ask you awhile before the problem arises. Its very easy to make the decision "to go" because you at that time feel allright. One has to think ahead and anticipate ones level of fatigue etc.


Ramrise

[trimotor]

Remember it's 'Captain's Discretion'. Not the Company's. I hear there's been an aeroplane or two dumped in odd places recently, as a result of the captain exercising that discretion - i.e. not continuing into discretion.

[GMDS]

BYMONEK

Sure enough the rules apply at any airport. The difference with home base is, that you have only just met the crew. You have not experienced their level of alertness, you know zilch about them. The FOM however clearly states that you need to " ... take note of circumstances of other crew members ... " before deciding about discretion. This means you basically need to go and talk to every one and check with him/her the last few working days and level of fatigue. Furthermore you don't know the FOs aptitudes. They will be in charge when you rest, in very remote regions sometimes, and you need to be able to assess if an extension of duty can be well enough handled by them. After a couple of hours seeing them work this is certainly possible, but not at the very beginning of duty in a friggin cold and useless HQ, with barely enough time to check in and assistance from dispatch and FDM that ridicules the very term.

That's why discretion out of DXB, right at the beginning of an operation, is very different as to extending duty once launched.

The mentioned article would be very handily used by our beloved company, if you give discretion (too) early and run into even a minor screw up.

Be very careful!

[BrownExPat]

Just an observer I was wondering what the block time is on the DXB-JFK and JFK-DXB. Most US airlines have 1 CA - 2 F/O's from 8-11:59 hrs block. 12 hrs and beyond it is 2 CA's - 2 F/O's or 1 Ca 3 F/O's depending on the airlines union contract.

Cheers

[seagoll]

just remember chaps you cannot PLAN into discretion you can only use it once effectively dispatched.I don't think crewing understand this,well certainly not from my experience...may the force be with us!

[halas]

Another point about discretion ex DXB - why? There "should be" enough reserve coverage to make the flight legal under FDL's being home base to everyone.

Which brings me to my next point. When the decision has been made to operate into "captains discretion", then the FDL's, although offering guidance for using discretion, are being breached. Therefor any extension of FDL's is beyond the company's accepted and regulated limit and now any recourse is null and void. In other words, the skipper is wholly responsible for any stuff-up by anyone on that flight whilst on duty.

"This incident, your Honor, may have been avoided if the captain had maintained and had kept within the legal limits of the established FDL's. It seems also, your Honor, that he did not follow the company's requirement to understand each and every crew members circumstances prior to ignoring the regulated FDL's"

Some may argue that's normal, but that's another issue.

halas

[BigGeordie]

Seagoll is half right- the company can't produce a flight plan/pairing which has you into discretion even if you push on time, which explains some of the wildly optimistic taxi times you sometimes see. However, dispatch has nothing to do with it. You can use discretion any time after you have signed in if, for example, an aircraft goes tech before the passengers have borarded and you have to do an aircraft swap. That is one of the contingencies discretion is desgined to cover. I don't mean to be pedantic about this but if we are going to argue with crewing about it (and if we say no be ready for a healthy discussion!) we need to know the rules inside out.

Halas raises an interesting point though- you shouldn't need to go into discression out of Dubai as there should be enough standby coverage.

[seagoll]

plan into discretion is fairly obvious i would suggest...example recently at wake up in down route hotel phone rings 'crewing here you will be flying into discretion on return flight ok' ...no! advised you cannot plan into discretion suddenly flight plan changes and apparently suddenly we are not into discretion....mmm.I hav'nt looked closely at ftl area as has not affected me yet and would send me to sleep...all that shading..but discretionary rules are fairly universal,just not universally applied...yeeha:ugh:

[Fubaar]

Can anyone recall the (accurate) details of the crew, some years ago, who experienced very long delays after taxi at JFK (I think after quite a long delay before taxi), to the point where they realised they were going to be beyond their 2 hour's max planned discretion before they even took off?

I understand they phoned Dubai, only to be informed by scheduling that taxi time didn't count towards MFD time(!)

[Instant Hooligan]

Surely if planning into discretion was allowed, they(company) wouldnt need to apply annex/variations to certain flights. Staff the airline adequately and these issues would go away. We as pilots are payed to operate the aircraft safely and efficiently not cover for other departments bad planning, lack of planning or any other such deficiencies. Stop covering for them and hold them accountable for their inadequacies, like they try to do so often with ours, through punitive measures.

[fatbus]

A Flighplan produced the day before and the day of is not what is meant buy "planned". Ed will tell you what it means if you ask, I seem to recall it is historical data valid for 6 months. If that produces flt times able to be done with 3 pilots what happens on the day does not matter. But it's CAPTAIN discretion not the company

[Mr Angry from Purley]

FATBUS

Yes Pilots need to be wary of "scheduled" and "planned". If the schedule DXB-JFK is 12.40hrs then in theory EK should be keeping an eye out on the average block time to ensure it's a good and if required adjusting it on a seasonal basis (due to slots etc) I guess with JFK taxi times the one more likely to be a problem is JFK-DXB.
On report on the day of the operation the flight time might be showing 13.10hrs but the FDP calculation I believe is based on the "scheduled" time of 12.40hrs because who know's what will happen en route particularly on such a long flight (yes it's more than likely it will end up with in advertant use of discretion).
Personally if I were EK i'd muster a standby crew somewhere in Europe so a plane could drop in for a quick crew change. One of the posters mentioned he got off and caused a 7hr delay in DXB, this would be a way of reducing that scenario. If I was a punter i'd prefer that.

I also think it worth pointing out that the flight departs DXB at 0200LT I believe so it's definately a "long haul" schedule :\

[ekpilot]

If it is short by a few minutes you need to fix the :mad: of planning. Be responsible, put fuel, fly 0.87M the whole way. Safety first :rolleyes: On a JFK-DXB you can catch up 20 minutes at 0.87:E You have to do your job and avoid discretion if possible. Then at the end if you end up being 2 minutes in discretion, well, at least you tried as much as you could to avoid going overtime on the FTL. In the event of an incident, a judge in a court would agree that there was a possibility of not going into discretion intentionally. That would be a fair reason for accepting to do the flight. But fly flight plan econ speed, and have a scratch at the end? I'm not sure what a judge would think??? Remember guys, EK is totally broke, it is a fact. All the money is ending down the road.The $$$ is where it hurts.

Safety First:ok:

[halas]

Mr Angry,

I don't get your point. Why have a crew based in Europe on standby when one extra crew member on board would alleviate the problem in the first instance?

l have a 203 next month and it is four crew. Is it only 201 that is effected?

It's interesting that 414 is planned at CI 500 to try and arrive prior to the onset of curfew in SYD. If they run one minute late they are off to MEL/BNE etc. This, both the CI and running late, costs the company money.
201 on the other hand is anticipated to occasionally use discretion, which saves the company money. I wonder if they will adjust the CI for three crew FDP?

halas

[lowstandard]

Remember this kiddies, they will drop you like a soiled johnny if anything happens when you are in discretion (anytime really). That is their fatigue get out of jail card....You are acknowledging that you are fit to fly beyond a FTL, your really exposing yourself.

When something goes wrong, thats when TCAS will remind you that its YOUR discretion. Until then, he will do everything to make it HIS discretion.

Look were not getting a cent of bonus, raise or whatever. So if they come close to discretion, especially on an annex flight, take extra fuel and go fast and lower. These guys are making nice bonuses off our backs and not sharing one dirham, they take all the credit and we carry all the weight. They will certainly blame us when we all run out of time for the year.

Money aside, it is a safety issue and forcing flights into discretion because of greed is a dangerous trend. Forcing a confrontation about FTL on these flights is a very subtle but dangerous stress.

I dont give a s#$% about EK's profitability because I am on my way home.
I will always operate to the highest level of safety and be professional with my crew.
I used to care about profitiability because this used to be a place to stay for awhile.
I am on my way home because AAR, TCAS and the horse.
I hope someone up top understands this concept.

[Craic Ore]

Halas,

The 345 did this 3 man for a summer a few years back and i'm pretty sure there was never high speed at the planning stage. The real problem was departing past the 8,11, 14 minutes or whatever was the cutoff where discretion would be required. This is where, in my opinion, you have 3 choices - 1. See how it's going at dep -30 and decide if ~4 tons is required for .85-.87, 2. Walk off and go home (i know a guy who did this and heard nothing from the company) or, 3. Use discretion and take ALL the reponsibility into your own hands.

The way to fight this one is make a statement (ie #1 or #2 above), following the laws to a tee. Read and re-read your FTLs so you know it as well as them and be willing to back up any action with a strong book knowledge. In this disgusting climate, they might come after you, at least for a chat about it. Smile, nod and have an answer for every BS comment or question they have.

[EFC 3 DAYS]

This is a conversation all about "BALLS".
Have you got big enough ones to once and for all stand up to these pr*cks.

LR3 one of the better statements made here re EK and its pilots!!! :ok:
UNFORTUNATELY the Emirates pilots pair of balls you refer to only seems to exist on the majority of EK pilots bodies either as a scratching exercise on layovers, to use only while talking to the mates over beers about what these same said pilots will do, would do or might do if the company screwed with them but would be safely hidden away if confronted by management on an issue OR finally as an indication that they do not have female genitalia!!
If a pilot is tired he should not fly. If he is sick he should not fly. This has always been recognised in aviation. Not so at Emirates. Seems to me from reading Emirates posts that Emirates required its pilots to leave their nads in their homecountry when they joined. Either that or their wives have kept them in a jar next to the bed when these same pilots go to work.
It is unbelieveable to read how much the Emirates pilots are allowing themselves to be pushed around by management. Extra flying (15+ hours) per month for free, less days off, utility bills, education increases etc......
What can the pilots do? As a group nothing due to the illegality of unions in the UAE (which by the way can you believe that it is illegal to have representation that would allow a worker or group of workers to improve their working conditions?) but as an individual you can do a lot.... call sick if you are sick, call fatigue if you are fatigued and don't come on PPRUNE moaning about your working conditions if you are not willing to do something about them. :{

[whossorrynow]

...and don't come on PPRuNe moaning about your working conditions if you are not willing to do something about them.

Not on the 380 so I don't have first hand knowledge, but anybody who's been reading the FOIP in the last 18 months will have seen the weekly crew reports about the CRC.

After 18 months of 'research' the company came out with this yesterday:

Initial indications are that crew operational performance, as measured by objective tests after rest in the A380 CRC, is unaffected by noise levels.

So that's alright then! :rolleyes:


-----------------------------------

halas wrote:

l have a 203 next month and it is four crew. Is it only 201 that is effected?

EK201 is affected because the layover exceeds 30 hours. EK203 and any other ULR that has a 24 hour layover won't go 3 crew under the present FTLs. They might try to rewrite the annexe for the specific pairings but I doubt the GCAA would approve it. Really.

[halas]

Can't remember the last 201 l did, but thanks for clearing that up.

Knowing the FTL on each trip is compulsory.

Had an aircraft go tech on push back in DXB for an Annex 1. flight. Was asked to use discretion. (There in lies the trigger for the alarm bells)...no
Had crew go sick in PER, and asked to use discretion...no
Had to divert on route and asked to use discretion for an extra sector after a long night of issues....no

Have used discretion a few times as it was the best outcome for the situation at the time.

It's not about balls, it's knowledge and knowing that saying NO is very easy.

halas

[ekwhistleblower]

You can't plan into discretion but there are rules which are designed to cover seasonal operating plan changeovers. Only a proportion of the flights have to be doable during a particular window which explains why it is completely legal to have a flight time greater than the block which would lead to discretion.

As to believing it is your discretion, it is devolved authority from the NPH and it would take a brave man given an order from the big man not to 'help out'. Not saying some wouldn't and I am sure I will have a load of outraged comments now about moral high ground but the reality is the pilot group have shown themselves to be a bunch of pussys that will just roll over and take whatever they are given. In that climate megalomania flourishes.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Halas
Indeed simple solution is a full relief crew. Life is never simple!
:\

[Antman]

Remind you of anyone!!!!
:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

http://rense.com/general89/rules.htm

[trimotor]

EK Whistleblower: have you not spoken to or heard about the increasing number of pilots NOT agreeing to discretion? They are out there!