Dead Tired

[Mill Worker]

I'm not sure if this has been posted before, if so apologies.

This two part documentary is well worth watching and is available on DVD.

YouTube - Dead Tired - The documentary (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3cOQBR-zO0)

It is now possible to lose your drivers license in many countries if you are diagnosed with a sleeping disorder, perhaps somebody could post some information on how this could affect an aviation medical. I know many many pilots that exist on very little sleep due to a combination of rostering, jet-lag, poor quality hotels, poor eating habits etc. I even know of a few with diagnosed sleep disorders.

This program even showed a trucking company that was about to have its insurance revoked due to its high accident rate as a result of driver sleep problems.

How many accidents/incidents could be attributed to these issues amongst pilots and engineers?

[Basil]

I know many many pilots that exist on very little sleep due to a combination of rostering, jet-lag, poor quality hotels, poor eating habits etc. I even know of a few with diagnosed sleep disorders.
I must have led a sheltered forty years in aviation :rolleyes:
Admittedly the civil part was mostly with proper majors and none of the 'pay us to let you fly our planes' crowd.

[Piltdown Man]

Short of having legal constraints put on P2F schemes, there are only a few directions we can go. The professional pilot would be the one declines to work due fatigue. But the word profession also implies some reward for the service. However, there might be a way out. You can't really file an MOR/ASR when you reported unfit for duty because that would be admitting to criminal act. So the only sensible thing to do would be to file under the CHIRP scheme. These guys are legit and short of another smoking hole in the ground incident like Colgan 3407, there is little else available. After all, the airlines won't be doing anything. Seat 0F is a major profit centre.

PM

[JamesA]

Like Mill Worker I have become more aware of crews saying they are tired at work for all the reasons stated.
I have heard of some people in the aviation industryt being 'retired' due to sleeping on the job.
Lately, some pilots have been voicing concern for maintenance engineers, especially, those operating as 'flying spanners', some who live on the airplane for many days at a time, ( I have heard of some being rostered up to thirty days), with no hotel so, the only sleep they get is on board during a flight.
I know I have slept for hours in flight and woken up feeling like sh1t, so how these guys must feel and have to carry out their work is beyond belief.
I have worked in many countries and have never come across hard working hours for maintenance, unlike flight crews. The European labour law has a get out which has been readily exploited by the airline industry. The FAR has a rest clause which can be easily got around. They know it and do nothing. How would you feel working 24 days continuously? But, it is legal.
Have more smoking holes been avoided by a casual somebody noticing an omission, rather than have a properly rested man/woman who would have seen/ corrected a defect in the first place?
Perhaps, more emphasis should be placed on this aspect of life, maybe the insurance companies would show interest when they are having to make more and heavier payouts.

[vs69]

With respect to engineers there are a few high profile accidents where work / inspections were carried out at night where lack of sleep could easily be one of the links in the chain leading up to the event - eg the BA 1-11 windscreen (windscreen changed at night), aloha air 737 cabriolet (crown inspection c/out at night - admittedly other factors also at play here that led to the corrosion being missed)

However, night work seems to be a vital part of keeping the things in the air thanks to schedule constraints - Does this make it ok??
As a holder of a pilots license or an engineers license we are supposedly responsible to know when we are unfit for work for whatever reason but who in the current climate would feel 100% happy ringing work to say 'Sorry boss, too tired to come in tonight'?

Sometimes we can be our own worst enemy though as I don't know any of my colleagues who would turn down some overtime if the price is right! (Maybe this says we aren't paid enough but I'm sure some of you will argue this....)

[Graybeard]

There was a commuter approach/landing accident in Aspen maybe 20 years ago in which cocaine was identified in a pilot's blood test. There was a big uproar, of course, and another pilot followed up with an article in an aviation magazine. He recommended drug tests be reduced in favor of daily performance tests. He suggested a video game kind of test in which a person would be scored primarily against his own record. If he failed, he would not be allowed to work that shift.

I never heard that this has been explored in the years since. It probably makes too much sense.

No, I'm not intending to defend alcohol or drug use, as I do neither.

GB

[BarbiesBoyfriend]

The FTL's take care of fatigue.

If you got a giant commute- that is very wearing- but your business entirely. Not your employers.

Either Move. Or Quit!

You are doing a favour to precisely no one.

And, please, do not blame the FTL's for your exhaustion.

(And thank Heaven for them!:ok:).

[kotakota]

Sorry , Barbiesboy , but FTLs are NOT the answer to fatigue - you must be one of the lucky ones with a 9-5 flying job .
Circadian rhythms are a big factor.
It is widely agreeed that Rest periods should be less than 18 hours or more than 30 hours , and that is right . However , when I worked for a BIG airline on longhaul doing Transatlantic flights , ALL our rest periods were circa 22 hours , the company knew it was not the best practice but had no choice really . The rest period more than compensated for the previous duty period of between 8 and 11 hours , but that did not make it good. Just as you were ready for your 2nd sleep , it was time for the return to work for a difficult night .back across the pond . I know how I felt after one of those , let alone 5 or 6 in a month . I was VERY pleased to get back on shorthaul I can tell you .

[flynerd]

Not really related to tiredness, but an interesting research report from NewScientist linking Blood type and Toxoplasma and reaction times.

from the article:
He suggests regularly testing Rh-negative pilots, air traffic controllers and truck drivers for the infection.Parasite may increase your odds of an auto accident - health - 09 June 2009 - New Scientist (http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20227115.000-parasite-may-increase-odds-of-an-auto-accident.html)

FN.

[Permafrost_ATPL]

Admittedly the civil part was mostly with proper majors and none of the 'pay us to let you fly our planes' crowd.

Here we go again...

Flying my orange plane is restricted by FTLs.
5-4-5-3 without a commute does not leave me sleep deprived.
I sleep in my bed 99% of the time.
Obviously no problem with circadian rhythm because no jet lag.
I sleep soundly since I don't live in fear of the taxman catching up with my dubious French residency for tax avoidance. And I'm still on wife number one.
My salary is not bad at all, thank you very much.

Aaah Basil, if only I flew for a proper major...
;)

P

[68+iou1]

Barbiestoy
Are you for real?
Have you ever flown an aircraft in bad weather over a 12 hours, four sectors, de-icing, MEL issues and pax rioting due CTOT delays?
“FTL’s take care of fatigue”
Management humour. Very funny!

[Basil]

Permafrost_ATPL,
OK, was shooting from the hip. No offence intended.
I meant to refer to the sort of ultra loco which fails to monitor their crews properly.
Airlines, including majors, which know that they have crew commuting to work over long distances really do need to monitor the situation and, if found necessary, demand that crew live within a reasonable distance from base.

I recollect being shown around (I think) an AN124 at a European airport. The flying spanner asked me to keep quiet because the crewmembers were asleep in bunks on the upper deck.

[framer]

Obviously no problem with circadian rhythm because no jet lag.

Obviously?? Not really, I regularly finish at midnight, get home at 0030, fall asleep about 0200, sleep til 1000, then have to start at 0530 the next day. This means that to get 8 hrs sleep I have to be in bed asleep by 2030hrs. It has never happened once because I simply cannot sleep after being awake for such a short period of time. I have a big break, 29 hours, but the cycle is repeated over and over with quite long four sector days and I am at the point where I might try sleeping pills even though I am fairly young, fit, and in good health. It's all completely legal and completely fatiguing......If I did the same flying hours with 10 hour breaks it would not fatigue me, I know because I've done it before. Can't see what jet-lag has to do with it at all actually.

[Permafrost_ATPL]

OK, maybe a bit of jet lag :-)

The 5-4-5-3 system is pretty good though (which is why we're all very worried about management trying to get new entrants onto a random roster...). You do 5 earlies or 5 lates. Only one early/late transition a month allowed per roster (and never allowed on day 5). Don't get me wrong, we still get tired! But more because of long days than circadian rhythm.

It's easy to see how the combination of random roster and commuting can be deadly. Airlines should indeed monitor the situation and some of them actually do demand you live within a certain distance. The problem at EZY is that commands are often given at a different base, with no estimate of when you might be able to get back. Do you sell your house and move the family, even though in 3 months time you might get your transfer back? Tricky.

P

[Bernoulli]

It seems that much effort is being put into place by certain trans- national low cost airlines in Europe to ensure that the findings of this report are ignored.

I wrote in early January to the EU Transport Commissioner, Mr Tajani to express my concern that the new rules would not fully incorporate the findings of the Moebus Report. So far, neither he, nor his office have got round to replying. Today I learnt that Mr Tajani has moved on and the new Transport Commissioner is a Mr Siim Kallas.

Anyone out there in a cockpit who's concerned about the impact of fatigue on the safety of the operation in which you're involved (and therefore the safety of the travelling public) should express their concerns now to Mr Kallas or another important wheel in this issue, Mr Brian Simpson. He's chairman of the Transport Committee.

[email protected]

[email protected]

Don't just sit there and read this thinking 'oh, some other chap'll send them a message' or 'it'll be allright'. No they won't and no it won't. Remember that full time sophisticated lobbyists are being paid right now to ensure that these new regulations are as loose as possible in order to protect their paymaster's bottom line. Joe Public doesn't care about these issues so it's up to us to stick up for them and ensure that their journey is as safe as possible. Go on..... send them a message supporting a safe, scientifically based level playing field across Europe. You owe it to those that pay our wages.

[Hahn]

If "those who pay our wages" would be prepared to pay a decent airfare our managers would surely employ more of us to avoid the problem. May be we need a crash first....

[Graybeard]

It's not the SLF at fault. When there is a surplus of supply (seats), the price falls to the level of the dumbest competitor. Regulations are needed to protect the public from stupid suppliers. That means requirements for safe aircraft and proficient crews.

GB

[DIA74]

I've said this before on other threads, but I have been on the retail side of travel as well as airlines, and 99pc of the public ONLY look at the price. There will be one helluva outcry if an accident is shown to be due to too many cut corners/crew or engineer working hours, etc. , but I will bet the next day SLF will still be searching the net for the cheapest fare.

[Piltdown Man]

DIA74 - You are absolutely correct. And to make sure that the product is legal and safe, we need proper regulatory oversight. And maybe part of that should take place in the operations and crewing centres of the airlines. And maybe on ramp checks the status and fitness of the crew should be assessed. I also haven't carried any form of Ops. Inspector for 15 years now. Maybe these new EASA people don't really exist.

PM