Poll: BALPA's Performance - Vote

[Dreamshiner]

Actually based on Pitdown Man's response to another thread I started. I am thinking it would be interesting to start a new Poll thread on pilots perception/experiences of BALPA's performance. If nothing else to help them gauge their current and target members. Also to avoid the other thread turning into BALPA bashing and keep it on topic, I think we are all aware how quickly a tangent can sprout.

Evidence you are 20x more inclined to complain than to give praise so hopefully a poll thread with a simple option to click to register a vote and only comment if you feel you need to.

Edited 18th FEB 2010 to reflect poll being made available.

After a few IT issues, here it is, the BALPA Poll.

It's been designed to allow a free and easy way for anyone viewing this thread to give their opinion/perception of the union that is our collective voice and champion.

I know Moderators are a little sceptical of them from experience but as long as this doesn't turn into public tête à tête's.

I changed the options based on the posts up until 23:00 on the 17th FEB. I'm also concious not to make the options biased towards any agenda.

Whatever your vote, if you would like to add additional information in the following format, it is by no means manditory however it would help to see if any trends are forming:

Number of Years Flying
Current Status/Employer
Option Selected
Supporting Reason for Selection

[Bruce Wayne]

You may want to add another category:

"Previous Member - let down - will not join again"

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

BALPA Member - impressed. Bruce and others are good guys but have not grasped the enormous pressure that our BALPA reps are facing. The bottom line is that the power lies with the individual BALPA members. Every guy like Bruce, however sincere, who leaves just helps the destruction of the pilot voice. If you are that upset, please become a rep and fight. Do not just leave the field of battle until the rest of the warriors win the fight - no one is impressed by that.

[beardy]

Members would, of course, be voting on their own performance since they are BALPA. Non members vote by either joining or refraining from joining. Simples! Anything else is just bar-talk.

[Bruce Wayne]

Every guy like Bruce, however sincere, who leaves just helps the destruction of the pilot voice.


NSF, sorry that's tosh. check your PM.

Happy to carry on a dialogue with you on PM on this issue and request that you remove that quote and reference and will reciprocate likewise by removing this one also.

[EpsilonVaz]

BALPA Member - Impressed

[skianyn vannin]

easyJet BALPA member. Considering ending membership, along with many of my colleagues.

[blackred1443]

BALPA member, considering ending membership.

[Chief Whip]

BALPA member considering ending membership

[Thunderbug]

BALPA Member - Impressed

[DADDY-OH!]

BALPA member- Impressed- As an ex-GSM I was impressed by the charitable solidarity of the BALPA membership who 'chipped-in' to the fund that helped the newly redundants.

BALPA member- NOT Impressed - As an ex-GSM'er who was a 'regular' on the Falklands AirBridge MoD contract, I am decidedly p*ssed off by the fact that BALPA has DONE NOTHING to protest to the new contract providers, Air Seychelles, to recruit some of the UK & EU Nationals made redundant when the original contract provider, GSM failed. German, Spanish & French ex-colleagues have stated that this would not be allowed in their countries & questioned the actions of our 'Union'.

BALPA member- NOT Impressed that BALPA can standby & allow newly licensed Pilot's to fall victim to the 'Pay-to-Fly' neo-criminally fraudulent schemes whereby victims are hope filled that they will stand more of a chance obtaining gainful employment by having a rating with a few hundred hours experience, only to be replaced by a new victim & dumped on the dole with a mountain of debt. BALPA should lobby members in these airlines & ask if it is 'morally right' or does it cheapen the value of airline pilots.

BALPA should grow some teeth & squeeze some balls, otherwise if it isn't protecting the rights, conditions & security of it's membership, what is the point of its being?
:ok:

[speedy688]

BALPA Member - Considering ending membership

[Dreamshiner]

Calling on all IT savvy, found this in the FAQ's but can't find the checkbox it talks about when starting a new thread, anyone got any experience of starting a poll?

You may notice that some threads on this forum also include a section where you can vote on an issue or question. These threads are called 'polls' and this is how to create them:

Creating a new poll

When you post a new thread, you may have the option to also create a poll.

This function allows you to ask a question and specify a number of possible responses. Other members will then be able to vote for the response they wish, and the results of the voting will be displayed in the thread.

An example poll might be:

What is your favorite color?

Red
Blue
Yellow
Green
Sky-blue pink with yellow spots
To create a poll when you post a new thread, simply click the 'Yes! post a poll' checkbox at the bottom of the page, and set the number of possible responses you want to include.

When you click the submit button, you will be taken to the poll creation page, where you can specify the question and the list of responses you want to include.

You may also want to specify a time limit for the poll, so that (for example) it only stays open for voting for a week.

Voting in and viewing a poll

To vote in a poll, simply select which option you want to vote for, and click the [Vote!] button. You may view the current results for a poll before you vote by clicking the 'View Results' link. Voting in a poll is entirely optional. You may vote for any of the available options, or cast no vote at all.

Generally, once you have voted in a poll, you will not be able to change your vote later, so place your vote carefully!

[390cruise]

Former member......very unimpressed.

Retired, within days found I was locked out of company Balpa pages.

This was the only time they acknowledged my existance over all those years.

BALPA...expensive......political ......poor.....no use.....

390
Forget BALPA

[miles offtarget]

Ex BALPA member, in my experience of 6 years thought they were appalling....twice !

Please have a look at the latest BALPA balance sheet, a copy of which is posted in a crewroom that I visited recently. Forgive me for not recalling the figures exactly, but circa.

Expenses, salaries, big building on Bath Road £690k

Amount spent defending members interests £190k

Can anyone find the exact figures, I fear that they explain much.

MoT

[FliegerTiger]

EZY Balpa member, considering ending membership

[Right Way Up]

Balpa member (21 years) - considering ending membership.

There must be an alternative that will actually protect pilots interests.

[Dreamshiner]

Woahhhhh there,

Before this gets out of hand, this thread was to get ideas for the options to select. I am still trying to work out how to start a Poll thread on PPRuNe, however the FAQ instructions I posted above doesn't tie in with the options available when I try to start a new thread.

So I'll try again, anyone know how to get a Poll Thread working?

[fokkerplod]

Non Member - Ended Membership - Not Impressed, unhelped in time of need

Number of years flying 9

Current Status/ Employer Employed/ Qatar Airways (not enough vacancies in UK as filled by overseas contractors / pay to flyers)

Option selected Former member cancelled due bad experience

Reasoning:


Hi when I flew for a Uk Cargo operator that was gobbled up by an Irish Rival,

a TUPE transfer ensued, a new contract, with a months notice was signed, however, when I later resigned to join a UK charter carrier, I was threatened to have to work 3 months notice or my reference for an ID pass would not be supplied.

BALPA listened and did nothing, resulting in having to work the longer notice period under considerable duress just to get a reference.

I spoke to a lawyer and was told that although I was in the right on the 1 months notice period of the contract I had signed "if i wanted to stay in the airline industry I would just have to be shafted by the Irish company for the sake of my ID" - even though I held a Full Airside BAA pass already and was just transferring airlines and airport!

Time balpa grew some teeth and protected all UK pilots interests :ok:

[Adios]

Dreamshiner,

The instructions say, "you may have the option to create a poll." Fact is, you don't, probably because the administrator disabled that option in this section of the forum.

[Piltdown Man]

Member - Impressed (because we have an excellent CC) - But maybe this says more about my colleagues. I hope not. Because if this is the case, this industry is totally shagged. But I'll repeat what I have said elsewhere, the only realistic union voice we have is BALPA. It will be what you want it to be, but only if you participate. There are no passengers!

PM

[DADDY-OH!]

The mainline British Unions didn't want to represent a bunch of perceived overpaid posh snobs but these days the difference in salaries between, for sake of comparison, an Inter City Train Driver & a non-BA Airline Captain has diminished to almost parity.

So my 2 questions to the forum are:

Would a modern day Airline Pilot's concerns & fears for their safety, security & futures be better represented by an organisation such as the Transport & General Workers Union? I favour this as FlyGlobespan's HR department hated having to 'deal' with the T&GWU in disputes with Groundstaff & Cabin Crew & generally got their asses kicked by the Union.

And is it the right time time to approach a bigger union when, outside-BA, our terms & conditions are being reduced to the point of apathy & ridicule?

Discuss.
:ok:

[Dreamshiner]

I'll contact a moderator to ask if its possible, thanks Adios.

Email sent to Jetdriver asking if its possible to have a dedicated poll thread, awaiting response.

[lurkio]

BALPA member - sticking with it.

Daddy-Oh, a couple of years ago at, if memory serves me, MyTravel a sizeable number wanted to go down the TGWU route and in fact one or two did join. Subs were considerably cheaper and things looked quite good. However, when push came to shove the TGWU advised the group that they would not allow them to join as it would be seen as poaching members from an already established union in the airline industry.

Been royally dumped on by BALPA twice but until someone comes up with a better and cheaper alternative them I am going to have to stay in. Until that day I will support my CC in the way I would hope they would support me if it came to it.

[elected rep]

Firstly, just to make clear, I'm not employed by BALPA, I'm a serving airline pillot for a UK charter operator and just happen to be have elected by BALPA members within my airline to represent their interests with our company.

A lot of bollocks is talked about BALPA, on this website especially.

For the benefit of MoT, let's look at the financial figures quoted. I have never bothered to look at BALPA accounts and I have no idea why anyone would bother printing them out and attaching them to a crew room wall.

Looking at the £690k figure for expenses, salaries and offices. Firstly expenses. I suspect most of them go on reps like me. Our airline has 10+ bases around the UK and I spend quite a lot of time on the road serving my members. To do this I'm reimbursed for my mileage, the odd flight and reasonable sustenance. All of these are paid by BALPA and I reckon I cost about £500 a month, i.e. £6000 per year just one me. I wouldn't be surprised if many Company Councils cost £50k+ in expenses alone.

Don't for a moment I'm making money on this deal. I lose thousands every year in flight pay and allowances.

The BALPA office is now on Heathrow Blvd. It's a modern office building but nothing extravigant and to be honest is only just big enough. It houses all the office staff, which in the main are just there to support the activities of reps like me and most couldn't be considered high earners under any circumstances. At the top, the General Secretary is on a fair whack, but still only on a middling LHS jet salary.

As for defending members, this is the bread and butter for us reps and the most important thing we do. I have no idea which budget this comes from, but we rarely have to call in the lawyers as our relationship with our company means we don't have to and in any case BALPA head office usually has enough legal experience not to need to call the solicitors on a regular basis.

It's a shame there appears so much dissatisfaction with the association. As is often noted it's a member driven organisation. Dysfunctional airlines tend to have dysfunctional company councils, and these are when makes the difference in member's experience of BALPA. This may explain some of the vitriol and bile displayed on these pages.

I would like to think the high levels of membership within my airline reflect the standard of service we provide.

Pilots as a generalisation are self motivated and dare I say selfish individuals, who tend to look to others to make a difference. Many of the comments on Prune reflect this and anyone reading them should bear this in mind. Also, the larger airlines mostly have very active forums through the BALPA website and this is where the adult debate takes place; they aren't anonymous and any statement made must be against your real name. It's all very easy to talk tough with the cloak on anonymity...

I entirely agree that BALPA has been utterly gutless when it comes to dealing with pay as you fly type arrangements. I think it's finally starting to rouse, and hope it's too late. To balance this, as I mentioned in my previous paragraph, it's easy to talk tough when sat anonymously in front of a keyboard, but would you really have the balls to go on strike over it? I'm not sure you would.

Does anyone honestly believe that industry terms and conditions be any worse if BALPA didn't exist? In my company, not a week goes by were the management doesn't try to take something from us or dilute what we have. Our Company Council is the only thing stopping them. And we're one of the better companies in the industry.

My final thought is this, if we all decide to be non-members, eventually all of us will be blind.

[al446]

As I posted on another thread yesterday -

TGWU is now called Unite after merging with several others, read it on their website or wiki.

I have long been an advocate of BALPA getting under the folds of Unite but, until that happens, I think that Unite would direct you to BALPA if you wished to join, my info may be out of date so don't take my word on it.I don't think it has anything to do with socio-economic groups, we all have aspirations, but had more to do with that union considering that you would be better represented elsewhere, the world of aviation is a very specialised field.

However, now that BASSA is a section within Unite and they represent CC outside of BA they may be up for accommodating pilots, you would have to ask. I am a total outsider in this but a long standing union person and would take the view that the old dog has to be very sick before you make the decision to put it down. if it is not then the only medication can be an input of members who are willing to become active rather than passively demand. That includes asking how your money is spent and especially focussing on how you deliver protection and representation to members. Perhaps Unite has greater experience in that delivery and perhaps BALPA could ask them for assistance, it is not unknown.

You may respond to this post by flaming me or agreeing, I would prefer that you do this within YOUR union.

Edited to add - I do not consider the IPA to be a realistic alternative.

[elected rep]

I can see possibilities with BALPA aligning with a much larger union. Part of the reason BALPA dues are high relative to other unions is due to it's lack of scale.

Whilst in some ways I admire BASSA, I would be very weary about being attached directly to it. Pilots are very different people from the majority of cabin crew and our interests are not always aligned: witness the current goings on in BA.

Agree with al446 that IPA certainly isn't the way to go. Completely the wrong direction in fact.

[ZeBedie]

BALPA Member - Impressed

and better off financially and lifestyle because of BALPA - it's a no brainer.

[Agaricus bisporus]

BALPA is all we have. Ther is no other union that would work for us.

AS others have said WE are BALPA; if your reps have not succeeded to your satisfaction then become a rep and fight yourself. The most sensible statement here to date is NSF's,

Do not just leave the field of battle until the rest of the warriors win the fight - no one is impressed by that. You'd be called some choice names if you did that in the Army...

Equally, do not stand on the sidelines watching the battle and hope to win a porton of the returns for no expended effort. That is called sponging.

The ONLY way we can have a hope of making progress is by EVERYONE being a member, so we have the solidarity to move ahead. Failing to join or leaving in a fit of pique is just letting your oppos down. Simple as that.

[clanger32]

Without wishing to comment on the poll as Dreamshiner has organised, I did wish to post a couple more thoughts here.

The very crux of the problem that people are complaining about is that BALPA is necessarily a grouping of individuals ostensibly acting under the same umbrella name to protect their own company interests - In effect each company CC is acting as an individual BALPA, perhaps a BALPA franchise. Ergo, the umbrella grouping does NOT serve the needs of the whole in any shape or form, only the individual parts. The most effective unions utilise the principle that the whole is greater than the sum of it's parts. Think of it as CRM for unions...

It seems obvious to me that this is a major, major failing.

Is it beyond the wit of the Balpa general secretary to see this and therefore organise a superset of individual CCs - or perhaps retirees who have loved their career but are not quite ready for completely hang up their headsets just yet - to act as the representation for the industry as a whole. Perhaps focussing on the more salient points that affect all of us who are in training, trained but yet to find first job, trained and experienced or in work, rather than company specific issues which can continue to be dealt with by the current set up. Areas such as Flight time regulations, PTF, base qualifications, standards could/should be looked at and pressure/influencing directly applied to EASA or equivalents.
If this IS beyond the wit of BALPA to see or act on, then one can rightly question what the bloody hell the point is. Would you sign up for BALPA if it were actually BALPA - BA, BALPA - easyJet, BALPA - Thomas Cook etc
(i.e. obviously only one company)

All the time this piece of the puzzle is missing, individual companies can stretch and push the boundaries of their own environment, using and reacting to the wider economic picture to justify reductions or failure to re-instate. And as we all know, only rarely will company A offer better terms than company B if B is getting away with reducing T&Cs. There is NOTHING to stop them, other than a determined individual CC...but even then if Ts&Cs in the rest of the industry have reduced by 50% then even that group would have to admit they had no grounds to defend on.

Elected Rep - you mentioned that it's easy to talk tough under the cloak of anonymity. This is true. But it's also very reflective of another failing of the union - to restrict the bullying (for want of a better term) that this industry is riddled, absolutely riddled, with. People don't WANT to be known by their real names because they are well aware that speaking up can lead to "...I'll :mad: your career" - especially when you're on the lower rungs of the ladder. This leads to further issues, because those with enough seniority to not have to worry about this any more enjoy the best Ts&Cs and are disinclined, generally, to rock the boat.
This malaise starts and spreads from the very base building blocks of ATPL ground school up to stories such as that recounted by Fokkerplod. This is the problem. "I'm alright Jack and screw the rest of you".

I applaud loud Dreamshiner's main comments that maybe, just maybe, the penny is dropping and people are starting to realise that looking out for number one has led to this horrendous situation. I thank him publicly for airing it and I pray that this continues and gathers pace. However it seems Balpa are again behind the drag curve and reacting, not pro-acting (is there such a verb?).

[4star]

The post of Clanger32 encapsulates the problem nicely. The current system "does not serve the needs of the whole".

This is not BALPA bashing. This problem can be fixed if we first recognise that there is a problem. How can BALPA ever tackle some of the big issue's facing our industry today - like pay to fly schemes et al, under the present system?.

It does not have to be like this. As for if the penny has dropped yet - I am not sure. BA friends are quick to praise their CC efficiency (in tackling exclusively BA issue's) while seemingly oblivious to the relentless rise of the Loco's who's business model guarantee's them a competitive advantage. Maybe an upturn in the economy will save them.

It would be interesting if a poll could be organised.

[Dreamshiner]

OK, the poll is now up and running. Voting threads are no longer an option for the plebs.

Changed the first post to reflect the changes thus far and would ask all who have already posted to register their votes now the count is up and running.

You have one vote which can't be changed, think hard before you post and be accurate with your mouse.

[Dreamshiner]

Number of Years Flying: 5

Current Status/Employer: Redundancy due to Global downturn - Charter Airline

Option Selected: Former member - Cancelled out of touch / not effective

Supporting Reason for Selection:
1) Went to BALPA job conference at LHR, 90% of attendee's fATPL holders <500 hours. Emirates, Etihad, Virgin Atlantic, etc. all gave talks however hiring minimums were >2,500/3,000. Easy/TCX/Monarch/Thomson (traditional hirers of low houred applicants) all no shows. Charged £70.
2) Canadian pilot agreement with TCX and how its being exploited, no action.
3) Reports of schoolboy errors and oversights in negotiations (outwith BA).
4) Looking at pilot T&C's vs train driver T&C's from 20 years ago and see what effective collective bargaining can achieve when dealing with numerous companies.
5) Pay2Fly schemes - I still don't know what their position is or if they have a strategy. From their forum not one BALPA employee made a comment, however they were quick to post on issues that were either easy to deal with or faff (in my humble opinion). This is single most important issue we will have to deal with in the next few years.

NOT FIT FOR PURPOSE

[Errol Sinclair]

Years flying: 6
Current Status/Employer: Employed Scheduled airline.
Option Selected: Former member - Cancelled out of touch / not effective
Supporting Reason: Asked twice for support on a personal issue and didn't get any.
More importantly on a company wide issue at a time when our operation wasn't so much acquired but given to another airline, negiotiations were completed between mgmt and CC and we weren't consulted or balloted.
Tried to speak to balpa central got told to deal directly with ineffectual rep.
Stop subscriptions after that.

[DADDY-OH!]

Number of years flying: 23

Current Status/Employer: Unemployed/Waiting to join a Lo-Cost operator.

Option selected: BALPA member- NOT impressed.

Supporting reason for selection: Pay-to Fly isn't being challenged & British jobs AREN'T going to unemployed British/EU Pilots.

BALPA is a Toothless Eunuch!- It has neither Balls nor Bite!
:ok:

[StressFree]

Former member - utterly unimpressed, TOTAL waste of money

Commercially flying in UK for 22 years, still employed. Many type ratings inc. B737 TRI/TRE.

Reason: I'm not in the airline sector and therefore BALPA may as well advise me on growing tomatoes for all they know about non-scheduled airline work, they took our money and didn't have a bloody clue about private aviation....

As well as that how the hell has the industry been allowed to diminish to the current pathetically low level if the mighty BALPA have any BALLS at all? :{

[Dreamshiner]

Would anyone who voted "member - content" or "member - impressed" care to share their experiences so the thread is more balanced.

At present (100-odd votes), those who are currently members and look upon BALPA favourably make up around 40-45% of the votes cast so far.

It would also be interesting to find out why the "never been member - unimpressed" have voted that way (not pilots/don't find unions effective/not eligible/American's/etc.)

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Being a BALPA member, I wish pay-to-fly wannabes would just die before their form of filthy prostitution infects us all. Is that too plain in today's Labour Britain? If so then I'm sorry to have offended. So very very sorry. Really. No I am.

WWW

[Basil]

WWW,

I do have to say that if I'd had to pay to be a pilot I would now be a retired engineer.

I was EXTREMELY lucky:
1. MoD engineering apprenticeship.
2. Seagoing marine engineer officer (which seemed to count at 3) then IBM.
3. Didn't think of myself as 'officer material' but the RAF kindly trained me to fly.
4. Following upon 3, wife talked me out of 'bush flying' in Africa and I just got in to BEA as the 1973 fuel crisis hit and the recruitment doors slammed shut barely missing my botty.

Terms such as: 'fickle finger of fate' and 'charmed life' spring to mind.

I'd have been just as happy as an IBM engineer (which was on the cards at the time - no pun intended - only old computer people will get that)

As originally an eng it is irritating that I get more respect for being a pilot but, hey, what the heck!

Oh, re BALPA, well, I reckon I was 47 before I had a decent salary and that was just because BALPA negotiated the Long Range Premium deal on the 744 which increased my gross by 25k.

Two best employers: IBM and BA (but if you try a head to head with BA they will destroy you - just be realistic)

p.s. HTF did I get into T&E? I'm retired! Must be because I'm just in from pub. There IS life after aviation - but not much :}

[Rednex]

WWW. You must be such a laugh to fly with. BALPA Bitch. At least the magizine is ok...

[captplaystation]

Back in the late eighties/early nineties when I flew for BMI the BALPA CC members largely comprised wannabee pilot management.
When I needed help, it was found wanting, and the bod on "my" side of the table (who surprise surprise subsequently became management) effectively just rubber-stamped the decision taken by management before having a nice round of golf & a couple of pints down the lodge with his "adversary" :hmm:

Between 2 & 3 years ago IALPA were very confident in the percentage of support they had (both IALPA & BALPA) within Ryanair. They wanted to go for a vote on recognition at that time and were VERY confident of a successful outcome.
The head honcho at BALPA ( not the current one) at that time scuppered it by stating that he wouldn't countenance a recognition vote until a full time official to represent Ryanair was recruited.
He then proceeded to attempt to recruit for this position by offering a fixed period contract only, which is rather half baked when you consider the calibre of person required if you are going to tackle Ryanair.
Long and the short of it is that the impetus was lost and the chance evaporated in the wind.
Next time round, a slightly slow starting wishy washy "respect" campaign floundered on the rocks before it became too embarassing.

The real chance was squandered nearly 3 yrs before.

Guess that makes me a dissatisfied ex-member.

[BusDriverLHR]

BALPA is essentially a group of unions (CCs) that largely operate autonomously. Granted there are BALPA wide policies, but in terms of union activity relating directly to one company, it's that companies CC that makes the decisions.

The BACC, imo, is excellent. I don't agree with everything they do, but by and large I feel very well represented. Given the situation our cabin crew are in, I'm glad we have a group of talented and hard working reps.

Incidentally, the effectiveness of the BACC is largely down to the fact that over 90% of BA pilots are members.

In summary, I don't really see the point of this poll. If you want it to have any meaning then multiple polls judging happiness with each individual CC would be required.

[boredcounter]

Allow it to become 'The British Airline People Association'?

An ever decreasing number of active members, but could they arrest the decline?

[DADDY-OH!]

Bus429LHR

That's all very well & good & I'm glad all the BA guys are happy with BALPA.

However, in the real world, things are a lot tougher & BALPA does a lot less for the rest of us & as you can see, the 'Malcontents' camp are generally not happy with BALPA & are larger in number than the contented.

Would BALPA be more effective & more accountable if:

BALPA members in a company decided whether or not to have CC's? Or individual Rep's reporting directly to BALPA?

Would it be better for BALPA to directly employ Rep's & place them with airlines that recognise BALPA? They don't have to be Line Pilots, just negotiators trained & familiar with the role, pressures & demands of Pilot's in the workplace.

If they decide to retain CC's, should those CC's consist of Line Pilots if some may abuse the position by posturing for management jobs? Should BALPA CC Reps' be made powerful enough to by-pass Fleet Level, Chief Pilot & DFO ranks & report or negotiate with the Chief Exec. or Board directly similar to the Flight Safety chain within an airline?

Should airline reps' be based at BALPA HQ & not be employed by the airline so aggrieved BALPA members can go straight to BALPA.

The whole system in its present shape is ineffective, corrupt, gutless, toothless & it stinks & it is only exacerbating the de-valuation of the role of Pilot's today.

During my years in aviation, a trainer whom I greatly admire was on a CRM course when some of the managers from departments all across the airline came in & 'BIG'ed up their own importance in running the airline & spewed forth how the airline needed EVERY person in EVERY department.
This trainer friend of mine then said to them something along the lines of,

"Well we'll have a little experiment shall we? All you management people in your 'backroom' departments take a week off, go home & spend some time off & just let the Pilots, Cabin Crew, Engineers & Op's staff run the airline for a week. Sure, for the first few days might be interesting but we'd keep it going. After the week, we'd let all the minions & managers back in & send home all the Pilots, Cabin Crew, Engineers & Ops staff for their week at home & then see how long the airline could operate for. Now exactly WHO does RUN the airline??!!!"

Personally, I think we have to take back the high ground here. I think it's time for an Airline Industry Specific union encompassing Pilot's, Cabin Crew, Engineers & Operations staff across the industry with a CC in each airline made up of reps from each discipline instead of a Pilot's Union, a Cabin Crew Union etc.

I couldn't give tosh if another Captain in a similar airline, flying a similar type from the same base on similar routes is earning X pounds more than me, or gets more time off or a better pension- those debates are for later. Right now, all I want is union protection from industry wide, rapidly erroding employment terms & conditions, and in my experience & opinion BALPA DOES NOT DELIVER. It's time for something new.
:ok:

[XT668]

Ridiculously expensive, achieved very little tangible or worthwhile whilst with BM, and then BALPA refused to assist and were hugely unhelpful during the whole BA / BACX farrago.:rolleyes:

BritishAirwaysLinePilotsAssoc.

BA might obviously disagree, buts that the way it was / is.

Now with the IPA - huge saving, pretty much the same benefits, legal protection, insurance, financial advice etc etc Also much easier to communicate with / to and far more helpful.:ok:

[Right Touch]

BALPA Member for 6 years generally satisfied but their lack of communication sometimes lets them down.

At Easy we have a Very Good CC , no management wanabees , in fact quite the opposite in fact.


Non Membership and Moaning and bitching from the sidelines about previous failures in other airlines weakens BALPA'S position and just leads to a reduction in its effectivness and strengthens management hands.

If we had 90% plus membership at Easy we would be in a much better place to fight our battles.

Its About your Current Airline not your Last.

BALPA is not perfect but it is all we have.

[FlyingTinCans]

BALPA member - Not impressed / No alternative.

And even though im not impressed I know leaving BALPA would be making the situation worse.

But what annoys me more are the Pilots who leave BALPA, stop thier contributions, but when the next tax-free allowances or pay scales are negotiated by BALPA, the reward is passed on to them anyway! :ugh:

Its a parody that is infact REDUCING its membership and therefore its pushing power.

[al446]

But what annoys me more are the Pilots who leave BALPA, stop thier contributions, but when the next tax-free allowances or pay scales are negotiated by BALPA, the reward is passed on to them anyway!This has long been a problem for unions in general, because the member did not get the service they thought they should they leave the union. In fairness, sometimes it is warranted as the branch they are a member of is run badly and I can see their point of view, I have had this within my own union due to an elected officer hitting the bottle and wanting an easy life. The answer to this may be to highlight it to the branch secretary but 1) It may take several failures by the officer for it to be an issue 2) My problem is immediate and needs dealing with in a professional manner NOW.

Had the problem been of sufficient magnitude to lead to dismissal the failure would have been picked up at some point but not before I had suffered considerable anguish. I chose to stay in the union and all is fine now.

The problem within BALPA as I see it from what limited knowledge I have is that your T&Cs are not negotiated across the board with each company setting their own, also different disciplinary procedures between airlines. This brings about greater reliance on the local rep who may think they know it all but have no legal background. It is up to MEMBERS to come forward to fill these positions but all unions struggle to find people who will put the effort in.

Meanwhile, the non-members will make 'noises off' about how little the union has done for them and generally spreading dissent/poison against the union while enjoying the pay the union has negotiated (that is within those with recognition).

If I am to believe some of the posts I read on here BALPA is a broken tool but the gripes tend to be non specific and drawn from experience of several years ago or what happened to someone else, they may also be due to inflated expectation.

As an example of that expectation I see things posted about P2F, a despicable money grubbing scheme by airlines, but NO union could change this as it is perfectly legal, it may be having a terrible effect on some of you guys but it is at a political level that this will be changed, probably European. So BALPA is the wrong target.

Perhaps this is an example of the arguments any proponent of the union should be rehearsing. Perhaps the union should be briefing its reps on this kind of argument.

Just my 2p worth.

[Looker]

BALPA member resigned.

Whilst all the ancillary persuits of BALPA are noble and right what I really wanted from BALPA was a bit more pit bull attitude towards defending my terms and conditions.

Maintaining a good working relationship with management and negotiating rather than resorting to industrial action is again noble and right. However the modern breed of airline managers don't give a to$$ for what is noble and right and are prepared to trample all over our negotiated terms and conditions in order to reduce the cost base.

BALPAs consistent failure to set a boundaries in their relationship with management ultimately leads to a dysfunctional relationship. Management need to realise there are boundaries and there are consequences for stepping beyond those boundaries. It seems that my current employer is only willing to negoitate meaningfully when dragged to the precipice of industrial action and made to look into the abyss. Concessions made by employees in good faith during difficult trading conditions are rarely if ever recouped when times are good. Goodwill is a concept understood but abused by management.

My stance is that there are too many poodles chowing down on prime steak at HQ and not enough pit bulls willing to scrap for their members.

Alternatives to BALPA - legal insurance through ALPL, union representation through UNITE. Both for 1/3rd of the cost of BALPA subs.

[Delta Wun-Wun]

Ezy ex EMA Considering resigning:mad::mad:

[flyingcamel]

It seems to me (as a relative newcomer to the industry) that the overwhelming issue here is whether BALPA are going to get 'stuck in' regarding the pay to fly 'problem.' I have only been in the RHS for 2 years now, but I was adamant that I was NOT going to pay for my 'in', either by paying for a TR or even 'TR+' package. So as a result I currently reside in a TP which I thoroughly enjoy flying, although I don't want this forever!

With eyes to the future it seems that some of the traditional escape routes from my TP life have been blockaded by a torrent of pay to fly cheaper options. Whilst I sympathise with these new cadets looking for work, ANY work, they are reducing my and my fellow aviators' options long term. So lamentably, I find myself hoping that somebody else's CC can do something about it because my CC do not have to address this issue (or so I imagine,) as I can't see anyone paying to fly a TP! So for the forseeable my company will continue to pay for bonded type training, and it remains 'out of my hands' so to speak, regardless of me wanting to see the issue resolved.

So I guess in a nut shell I'm looking over the fence hoping this can be resolved but I am totally bemused as to what I can do. I'm open to suggestions!

Apologies for this long meandering run!

Regards
Flyingcamel

[al446]

From my last post -

As an example of that expectation I see things posted about P2F, a despicable money grubbing scheme by airlines, but NO union could change this as it is perfectly legal, it may be having a terrible effect on some of you guys but it is at a political level that this will be changed, probably European. So BALPA is the wrong target.

Have you tried contacting your MP about this issue?

[Caudillo]

As well as that how the hell has the industry been allowed to diminish to the current pathetically low level if the mighty BALPA have any BALLS at all?

I think it might be connected to the fact that a union really only has the nuclear option when it comes to a fight. Being rather conservative, and ranging from let's-not-rock-the-boat types to an alternative word for cats - pilots are unlikely to back that option.

What do you expect? The BNP aren't in power as most people outside of Lancashire don't like cheap pseudo neo-nazi ideas, if they did, we'd have to roll out the carpet for PM Griffin. By the same token, if Balpa were to bang the drum hard (and remember it's illegal for them to incite strikes) it doesn't necessarily follow that pilots would back it.

Another thing that pussies have in common with cats is that they're hard to herd.

[six-sixty]

Balpa member - Impressed - for now...

Short term: Terms and conditions at my airline would be worse than they are currently were it not for the work of our CC. My subs have paid for themselves. The CC work hard on our behalf have been effective on several major issues. If only there were a way for the non-members in my company to have the decency to decline the benefits negotiated by a union who apparently aren't worth the money and be true to their convictions.

Who do you all think is going to bother fighting the new EASA FTL's if not BALPA?

Long term I'm not so sure Balpa's collegiate "professional organisation" style is going to work against current airline management trends (greedy yobbish thugs and spivs etc) and think the dinousaur/bonehead UNITE-type of bloody mindedness might be the only appropriate club left in the bag.

[Ballymoss]

most people outside of Lancashire don't like cheap pseudo neo-nazi ideas

Same goes for most people inside of Lancashire:=

(what a toolbox!)

Rgds
The Moss:ok:

[maat]

Now with the IPA - huge saving, pretty much the same benefits, legal protection, insurance, financial advice etc etc Also much easier to communicate with / to and far more helpful

This would not appear to be the DHL pilots opinion.

Which airlines have a company council affiliated to the IPA and recognised by the management within that airline as the pilots representative group?

[mackey]

Perhaps BALPA would like to have the chance to defend themselves here?!:confused:

Come on BALPA show us all you have the balls to do it!

M.

[luddite]

Former member cancelled due bad experience.
Flying since 1982, currently with LCC.
Paid dues to BALPA for seven years - then Danair went bust. Strangely no desire to throw away any more money in BALPA's direction.
:mad::mad: :ugh:

[Dreamshiner]

As I type this there have been over 430 votes, overwhelmed by the response so far.

All I would reiterate is the points of my previous post where I asked for the sizeable numbers voting who are current BALPA members and are happy/content to give an idea why or if there is a trend with their experience level or airline.

2nd is directed at those who have never been a member, please advise why you voted the way you did, are you flying elsewhere in the world, are you 15 and an avid FSX aficionado, etc.

Please if you take the time to vote please add a comment as to your motivations, it would really help the debate. However it is by no means mandatory, just interesting when looking combined with the results gathered.

Please use the following format if possible:

Number of Years Flying
Current Status/Employer
Option Selected
Supporting Reason for Selection

[4star]

BALPA MEMBER - NOT IMPRESSED. Employed


To all those who say "Shhh, don't question the value/effectiveness of BALPA it will only make things worse..." I say we question it because we care. We care about our profession and we care about BALPA. We want it to not just secure the current members but recover those who have left and encourage new members.


To those who say "listen, you don't get it. It's a members led organisation, speak to your CC..." I say what about all those who are unemployed/work for a company where the union is not recognised/ have been forced to find work abroad etc.


To those who say " you have unrealistic expectations of what BALPA can do...." I say let BALPA tell me what is possible and what isn't. Let BALPA explain to me that at the very least it understands the national issue's and it has considered the options. Where BALPA has a weakness in an area that it has then liaised with other unions/ taken legal advise/ looked at using public relations experts etc etc etc. At the very least acknowledge the damn issue's and communicate with us more.


To those who say "well the current system works just dandy in my airline..." I say perhaps - but only in respect of internal matters. With respect that is simply not good enough. Your company does not operate in an economic bubble. While you have been protecting your T & C's others have had there's reduced. Those companies may be in a position to take business away from you. You could end up with the best T & C's of any airline thats failed so far.

I will stick with them but I think they could do much more.

[al446]

Wise words indeed. I have been fighting the corner of unions in general on here in various threads for a while. I have done so since the attempt for recognition within RYR, clarified the legal position when total distortions of the true state have been posted to mislead and tried to illustrate why some present/would be members have expectations beyond what is legally possible. Some BALPA members or sympathisers have aided me BUT at no point has a BALPA (or other union) official come on and posted their stance.

Perhaps BALPA may be better responding to this thread.

[Sean Dillon]

Former BALPA Member - cancelled, total waste of money!

It is a complete game, nothing more. Things have now turned, I think for the foreseeable future of UK airline life.

I will be redundant at the end of April from a 'large' union orientated UK airline. This particular CC have just discovered this 'new' game from management who are now making sure it is they who run the company, not a bunch of senior guys who are, in reality, looking after the interests of senior pilots. I personally believe it is these folk, who are desperate to hang on to and have turned 'Big Seniority' into something special, why the future pilots of the industry are now suffering.

I am now joining easyJet, a BALPA recognised company, albeit working for PARC on a contract that is nothing short of disgusting...but I need a job!

1% payrise for me at least, I will never rejoin.

Regards
Sean

[Firestorm]

Pilots as a generalisation are self motivated and dare I say selfish individuals, who tend to look to others to make a difference

I'm not sure that statement is correct. I think the problem with getting unity from the pilot body is due to the very nature of our working style. What I mean by that is we work in small isolated groups, and away from our peers. As an FO you spend very little time with other FOs, and likewise Captains. The opportunities are the frantic few minutes in the crew room as one crew reports, and another logs out, or the occasional beer down route on a rare nightstop. Without regular contact noone quite knows what anyone else is thinking, or intending to do. This plays into the employers hands in an industrial sense in that divide and conquer is already achieved. That is why pilots need a more effective union right from the top, and that is what BALPA doesn't do.

BALPA represents the loudest, and most senior, and has ignored those coming in at he bottom hence the evolution of bonds to self sponsored type rating to pay to fly. BALPA should have jumped on these schemes right from the beginning, but when I was last a member of BALPA, and tried to raise this issue with them in the London office I was told in as many words that it was a good thing. There were other factors in my decision to never have anything to do with BALPA ever gain, but that was certainly a big factor.

Another aspect of BALPA that I didn't like was that one of the Principle Negotiators (I think that was the title) was so antagonistic towards the management that relations between the CC, and the mangers were completely destroyed, negotiations broke down, and management will was imposed, and below what could have been achieved with the CC.

BALPA: worth 2% of my salary? No. No way.

[DADDY-OH!]

al446

BALPA? Comment on here??? They're too busy!! How can they do that when they're getting ready to battle in the Supreme Court fighting for BA Pilot's Holiday Pay after the High Court said ruled in favour of BA?

When will BALPA do something about helping people closer to the breadline?

Am I right in thinking that the BA Pilot's want payments the equivalent of Duty Pay while they aren't on duty or don't they get paid holidays at salary level rates?
:ok:

[Caudillo]

When will BALPA do something about helping people closer to the breadline?

They can't. They're a union and they don't pay the salaries. They can only be effective if members are prepared to put their balls on the line. Which most aren't.

[Dreamshiner]

After being going for a week the BALPA Perception Poll has attracted just a little shy of 500 votes. The number of votes cast has started to slow and the posts continuing the debate has faltered slightly (which wasn't the aim). So in an effort to boost things it needs a little jump start.

Unfortunately I don't work for MORI otherwise I'd be able to advise the error factor in the poll. However some results are irrefutable if answered honestly by PPRuNe members. I've been monitoring this thread actively. I've also tried to stimulate posts from those who were voting in significant numbers but weren't adding comments as to why. Most posts so far tend to be from the disenfranchised.

However in an effort to stimulate debate and initiatives here goes some basic analysis of the results so far:

Current BALPA Membership

The most noticable trend with the voting on this over the past week was the contents/could do better's were in the majority until approx. halfway through the vote, when they were matched and then eclipsed by those considering ending membership. The first three options have by and large shared an equal percentage +/- 3% throughout.

Worryingly for the membership administrators 34% are currently considering ending membership and a further 27% would do so if they felt there was a viable alternative (I by no means degrade the IPA here - I have been a member of both and found them more helpful and more attuned to my needs when I approached them both before my first airline interview)

So based on the votes so far, there is roughly a 40%-60% split, with the minority favouring BALPA's performance and perception.

Again, it would be interesting (despite a couple of requests already) if we could see if there is a trend in terms of experience level or airline of the 40% of members who are content/impressed. It has been suggested on about three threads currently running at present that these may predominately be members of certain airlines with robust Company Councils (CC's for those new to the expression).

Former Members

There is no definitive information as to when this group ended/cancelled their membership. I was limited to 9 options in the poll. From comments made and PM's sent to me it would generally appear to be over a wide spread of time (From Dan Air in the early 90's to the past few months). The next set of conclusions may be erroneous as a result but also have some validity.

If the former members are added together they total approximately 130 (03:00 25/FEB). This makes them the biggest group of those holding/held BALPA membership and have voted in this poll. When combining with the current members votes (total: 440) we see 30% have cancelled, 25% are actively considering it, 20% are not happy, 19% are content and 6% impressed.

Now adding together the malcontent's, disenfranchised and unimpressed a total of 75% is achieved compared to 25% who voted as content/impressed. This is a massive 3:1 ratio and to put it in context equals that of George Bush just before he left office*.

Again, worryingly for BALPA is at the two extremes of cancellation and strong support. Those who's perception/experience is damaged outnumber those who have strong support and praise by almost 5:1.

Never Been Members

I would suggest (as nobody has informed me either by PM or publicly) that this group is made up of foreign pilots, those not covered by the auspices of BALPA's remit, student pilots, aspiring pilots, and general spotters who have a strong interest in aviation and trawl through PPRuNe as a result.

Not all of the 50ish who have voted in these 2 categories would be potential new recruits however some would be. Of interest to any BALPA hierarchy reading this (because they must have had wind before now) is that for every 1 person who looks upon them favourably, almost 10 do not. This to me seems to suggest they need to employ some better PR activities going forward as they certainly have an image problem that needs addressing.

As I have asked for already it would be really interesting to know why this 50 voted this way and their backgrounds. If its foreign pilots comparing their perceptions of the British unions effectiveness to their own then that would certainly be worth debating further.

Discuss ................

(* Washington Post Timeline: Bush's Eight Years in Office | washingtonpost.com (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/bush/legacy/timeline/))

[sidtheesexist]

Am a BALPA member. Employed by BA and in general, v happy with what our CC have achieved through tough and principled negotiation. We are fortunate to have some great intellects battling for us........

Someone made the very valid point about the fragmented nature of our union due numerous CCs fighting their own individual battles. This is definitely something which weakens big BALPA.

Personally, what really irks me, is big BALPA's apparent ineffectiveness in tackling the major issues that affect us all - SSTRs, PTF schemes, Airport Security......... As many before have said, time to grow some balls and teeth and start upsetting one or two applecarts.

In summary, a BALPA member who is (a) satisfied with my CC and (b) VERY DISSATISFIED with big BALPA

[Dreamshiner]

Well put sid,

I think wise to distinguish that we have BALPA national level and BALPA CC's at local level.

The options on this poll could have been tailored to distinguish between national level and local if I had more than 9 available. However i didn't have that luxury so I would suggest that those who perceive BALPA negatively are looking at the organisation nationally, on the converse those who have voted positively would be more influenced by their direct CC. I maybe wrong with this analysis.

BALPA national level should be taking a lead and tackling the major issues you outlined, supporting students, newly qualified and unemployed despite their subs ranging from £0-£2 per month. They may not cover your bills now Mr McAuslan, but they will in the future, but only if you act now.

P2F is almost universally despised and an effective stance on this cancer would be welcomed.

I wouldn't mind a bit of BALPA's resources being put into forward planning and investigation on what might be thrown at us in the next couple of years so it can be cauterised before its too late.

I would argue is to ensure continuity and consistency in the effectiveness at CC level throughout all CC's. The exchange of best practice and tactics as ever CC ins't as well versed and exacting as BA's, maybe Easy's could devise a new approach if advice was sought. A method where a CC can explain themselves and their course of action to their peers after a decision/agreement would help too based on what I've read so far. A secure forum on the BALPA website would allow this.

Also a transparent way of reporting alleged ineffectiveness to national level would also appease some who have voiced their negative experiences of their CC or an individual rep on here.

This is the tip of the iceberg, I would hope that a further 20 or so initiatives would be adopted as soon as possible, for there are no shortage of ideas, just will.

[captplaystation]

Perhaps some CC member could contact H.Q. and try and "wake up" the beast with a suggestion that they take heed of this problem rather than making like an ostrich.
500 (and counting) is a reasonable straw poll of their members, and hey, we even have a BA member who, whilst satisfied locally, has identified the lack of action @ the top.
TIME TO WAKE UP BALPA ! ! Or wait until you see the membership dwindling ? :rolleyes: but then it is too late, proactive beats reactive any day :ugh:

[WidebodyWillie]

British Airways Line Pilots Association.

Balpa - working mainly in the interests of British Airways.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Former member - Cancelled due to ineffectiveness within the main body of Balpa.

Complete waste of money, would rather give it to a worthwhile charity.

I will never rejoin.

[JB007]

Former Member - Cancelled - out of touch / ineffective

I'm also with Sid, if a genuine attempt to tackle the things as Sid has listed were made, i'd be happy to rejoin and support them. But I read nothing but people talking about it and no action.

I also met some very good blokes at 'local' level, but on the whole, a powerless group of individuals when it comes to the things that matter and a complete waste of money!

JB

[Wingswinger]

To those BALPA bashers:

BALPA is NOT them, it is us. If you think it is ineffective and poor value for money - and your judgement may be correct - then stand for election to your CC and the NEC, get in there and CHANGE IT. The REAL enemies are apathy and indolence. To paraphrase an old cliché, all that is necessary for expoitation to triumph is for the membership to do nothing. Write, march, stand for election, run the councils, learn about employment law, confront the managements. Then, if you fail, and only then, can you complain about BALPA being useless and poor value.

[vote4pedro]

Well, after a couple of years out of the BALPA "fold" I've renewed my membership.

Why?

Time to stand up and be counted.

Wingswinger.......spot on.

[gatbusdriver]

They could do better, but content.

Employed for 11 years with TCX.

I agree with sid, we are very lucky to have a great CC that have negotiated very effectively with the company over the years (there have been several occasions where the pay rise achieved by Balpa was over and above other non-unionised groups). I see my membership as self funding, and am very happy. Our CC have a good relationship with the management, and work hard at securing/improving our terms and conditions whilst at the same time appreciating the difficulties our industry faces.

I do think big Balpa has a long way to go.

[L337]

Number of Years Flying: 35 Years
Current Status/Employer Captain: 747-400. Employed
Option Selected: Former Member- Cancelled due bad experience(s)
Supporting Reason for Selection: Too numerous to list. Myopic self serving bunch of ex patriot wasters.

[Dreamshiner]

It has came to my attention that some members may be trying to influence this vote. By viewing this post as a guest or signing out (if you have automatic sign in function enabled) it allows you to vote even if you have already done so.

I tend to keep a close eye on this thread as JetDriver advised at its conception that polls could degenerate quickly and miss the initial goal. I have seen a trend were at certain times votes at the extremes of this poll have increased dramatically in context and comparison. I just wish an IP address tag was left for each vote, however it hasn't and no doubt be breaching some privacy law if it was.

All I would say is if you have to resort to this sort of behaviour to gerrymander a vote to your agenda then you need to take a long look in the mirror and at your motives.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Gerrymander eh? Its not exactly a very scientific poll now is it.

The bottom line is that unionised companies, unionised sectors and unionised industries all tend on average to offer more favourable terms and conditions over time.

Its a fact.

Some pilots join the only UK trade union for pilots and some don't. Shame we all don't. But heh - what can you do?


WWW

[Dreamshiner]

It was never advertised as a scientific poll WWW and as my previous post showed I am more than willing to bring its failings to the attention even if it may attract criticism from those who don't agree with its results.

Rather than find holes in the security, it may be more worthwhile to question the integrity of those who may have acted to push things a little more to favour their standpoint.

Also a rather questionable statement directed against the IPA from someone who should be demonstrating objectivity.

[al446]

It was never advertised as a scientific poll WWW and as my previous post showed I am more than willing to bring its failings to the attention even if it may attract criticism from those who don't agree with its results.

Rather than find holes in the security, it may be more worthwhile to question the integrity of those who may have acted to push things a little more to favour their standpoint.

Also a rather questionable statement directed against the IPA from someone who should be demonstrating objectivity.

In which case I think you should be looking at the EZY thread and cautioning against using this poll's results as a basis of argument.

I have declined the invitation to vote on this as I do not want to skew the results but I can envisage others who may not have such scruples distorting things and then using their own distortion to argue their own for/anti stance.

In light of your admission perhaps you should close this thread, it seems more divisive than you may have intended. And we don't want that, do we?

[Dartsinsync]

Some pilots join the only UK trade union for pilots and some don't. Shame we all don't. But heh - what can you do?



Whilst not wishing to sway anyone's opinion on this thread, I feel that a response is required when a moderator makes a biased statement, as above. It is incorrect, and does not reflect well on this forum.

I merely remind people that there is another trade union for pilots - I.P.A.

[captplaystation]

And to counter your complaint of "mod bias" in post #79 I suggest you read post # 73 .

They have , and are entitled to ,opinions too, just that they are less likely to voice them here after becoming mods.

[Airbus Girl]

BALPA aren't perfect and are expensive but they do do far more than just have a big office and support CCs. CCs are only going to be as strong as their pilot members - if we want to support a strike then I am sure the CC's could push companies further, but lets face it, who is going to go on strike? Without any leverage as such, its just down to negotiation - the CC negotiating for us line pilots, as a group. Of course not everyone is going to get what they want, that would be near impossible I would think. I guess I could only complain about the result if I were prepared to stand for the CC!!

As for BALPA and its main offices and activities, they do lobby government, CAA etc. and various other organisations on a national and international level. They have been involved with lobbying on things such as the MPL, ATC, European medical regulations, licencing, etc. I guess that you have to read the annual reports, the mag and the website in some depth to find this out though. According to members on the licencing/ training committee at BALPA, they don't want "pay as you fly" either, but there is only so much they can do. They can't tell an employer not to offer it, or tell the CAA not to let these people have a licence. I don't know what the answer is, but I guess its better to have someone doing something than no-one doing anything.

I don't think BALPA is exactly right for what we need, but I do understand that there is a limit any union can do when its members are not militant in any way, and do not wish to get involved in campaigning.

How many people wrote to their MPs to complain about the proposed new FTLs? BALPA sent info out in The Log and by text/ email, but I bet hardly anyone bothered to support the campaign. And I guess if one MP gets a letter from one BALPA member, even if supported by BALPA itself, it isn't going to have much sway!

As someone else said, pilots in general are quite a selfish bunch and also do not wish to "rock the boat". How many of us would go to the head of our company and tell them exactly what we really think? :hmm:

[Dreamshiner]

OK, quite a few bits to cover so here goes, I'll deal with them in reverse order as its easier for me scrolling down and back up.

Airbus Girl - Quite a few good points you make, certainly something that I hope will be a catalyst for further discussion going forward. I do agree with you that our industry is very "self" orientated. Militancy among unions in the UK (ruling out the RMT and Post Office) has generally been left in the 70's and 80's.

Captplaystation - nobody complained or insinuated bias, JB007 posted based on his personal experiences and perception, WWW posted a statement that is incorrect alongside his personal opinions. Some new to PPRuNe may give comments posted by a moderator more credence than others.

al446 - I don't think I can close a thread, however if I did I wouldn't for the following reasons:

While I agree that it would be better all round if this poll was watertight, I would point you to review the point I made about error factor in post #68. Can any straw poll ever be? I feel I have placed enough disclaimers and warnings to anyone reading this.

If I placed a disclaimer then every thread would need one to advise that posters may not be who they claim to be or have a specific agenda.

The poll went live on the 18th of Feb, plenty of posts of all views were made before then. I asked if it was possible to switch to a vote thread to make it easier for all to vote as I felt those who had a negative perception of BALPA were more likely to comment than those who had a positive view (human nature is 1:20). By making it more inclusive I hoped to get a true view as I assumed and found there is a good percentage who are generally happy with BALPA's performance. Catch 22, Damned if I do, damned if I don't.

I brought the potential to alter the vote to light and posted it publicly. Counter productive and leaves this thread open to assault, however upfront and furnishing anyone reading this with full facts to allow them to make a measured approach to its findings. I point you to a comment made by ezydriver on the Easyjet thread.

"if people were to look at this unscientific poll and pick it to pieces without even thinking about its results then to me it is clear their heads are in the sand".

I trust in my peers that they will evaluate all points of view and findings before formulating a position or view.

Anyone lacking moral fibre to influence this vote would have to be pretty committed and tend to post at the extremes. I would suggest that the not impressed/not alternative and content voters would be pretty accurate.

Also throughout the poll, the percentage breakdown has remained roughly the same (except first day while it balanced itself and enough votes were cast).

I think one thing to be learned is you can never keep everyone happy and nothing is perfect.

Edit: 08/03 23:00 to alter response to cps.

[Sick Squid]

Number of Years Flying 22 (19 professionally, 16 current employer)
Current Status/Employer Captain, British Airways
Option Selected BALPA Member, very impressed
Supporting Reason for Selection: Outlined below.....

.....Well, there's the rub. If you'd asked me ten years ago, my answer would have been different. In that time I've come to realise that BALPA is us, it is the sum total of those who choose to stand up and represent us from within our (airline pilots as a whole) ranks, the sum of their intellect, motivation and negotiating skills.

Currently, my CC is quite simply the best I have seen, with a wealth of talent, some seriously sharp people, and a realistic approach to negotiating within the current climate. Yes, that does involve a bit of give-and-take, but it also involves a degree of realism. For example, my CC is on record as stating that it wishes to be in place beside the company when decisions are being made, the better to influence them and avoid the issue (we may have had recently, leading to a disagreement) of decisions being made and then presented to the workforce as fait accompli, with no room for negotition. Indeed, the giving of room would be seen as a weakness in management, so therefore positions entrench and we all lose.

As to big BALPA, well, much as I want my family on the jumpseat again I have enough contacts there to know what they are up against. The global issues that affect us all tend by their nature to meet with similar Governmental resistance and need a strong, effective and connected lobbying group to work the corridors and make change happen. Whilst I can't say I'm altogether 100% happy with the legislative environment I work within, I would hesitate to lay that at the door of BALPA, as they are as Sisyphus pushing an establishment rock uphill, and in order to get that rock over the top it will require a great degree of solidarity combined with the above, as well as a degree of acquissence from "The Man." Given the nature of the business, I'm not sure that solidarity exists, and the acquissence is not forthcoming for any number of politally-entrenched reasons, so therefore am unwilling to blame BALPA for any lack of progress just yet.

And, yes further to previous comments, I'm a moderator, but this ain't my named forum (though I do hold a remit over the entire site,) I'm off duty and these are my opinions; we are, believe it or not, allowed to have opinions, we just don't let them affect the moderation. For example, whilst I would have phrased it drastically differently, I agree 100% with WWW about Pay-To-Fly; basically, a union can shout as much as it likes and as loud as it likes but as long as there exist people willing to pay to sit in the right hand seat of an airliner to gain a type-rating, then it will continue, simple market economics dictate that fact. If people stopped paying, it would stop overnight. Unfortunately, and historically, Homo Sapiens Piloticus is not, by nature, given to altruism when it tends towards the greater good of the profession, particularly when something big and turbine-powered is involved.

How can BALPA legislate against that, which is essentially a market economics argument?

Anyway, that's where I stand. As with all these issues, the response is by nature partisan, and related to one's own experience/current environment. Were I in a different place, different life- aviation-experiences, then my answer would perhaps be different.

Squid

(Edit: I've just had to lie down in a darkened room; I realised how big the number 22 is. Was it really 22 years ago I first started my PPL at my local flying club? It was. :ooh: Even worse, it's 31 years since my first flying lesson, a Christmas present, aged 12. Those numbers hurt.)

[4star]

I am pressed for time but would just like to respond quickly to the post of sick squid. Principally because, more or less, it seems to encapsulate the logic from those in the satisfied group.

My difficulty with your position is that it ignores many of the posts that have challanged this view. I would refer damp squid to (amongs others) the post #31 of clanger32 or my post #62 (para 2,3 and 4).

I would invite damp squid to address those points directly. (rather than just repeating the "well its all down to the members" line). I would be interested in hearing your reply.

[jumpjet7]

4Star

I don't have any answers really just observations. Pilots are stable extraverts which probably means our personality traits appear to an outsider as very confident, selfish type A personalities. Not naturally carers and sharers.

I'm lucky to have worked for a good operator for 23 years with one of the best company councils. We have always attracted quality characters onto the cc maybe because it's an alternative career path for some. Thats great as long as you have a large enough gene pool and a company that rosters the cc time to negotiate, although most time is donated at the council members expense.

My company has been stable for many decades with long periods of time to command, excepting the last credit fuelled few years which has seen quick commands followed by redundency. Traditionally we accepted jobs knowing of time to command. This has led to many taking roles in management, training and cc duties prior to command. Instant gratification being replaced by the long game. I believe this culture has led to an enviroment where we look after each other. Not perfect at times but nearly five decades of industry leading conditions.

Currently we are enduring a war of attrition with managment, our only credible defence comes from the cc who are holding out. How you get an effective cc into every company I have no idea. It does seem big Balpa is ineffective with smaller or newish companies. Going back a few decades directors were ex, or current Balpa members. How times change.

[al446]

why does this thread always keep on top and show latest post as today when it was ages ago? I keep expecting to see something new but same old posts. Can a mod answer please.

[Dreamshiner]

al446,

Been keeping my eye on this thread as discussed earlier, it appears whenever someone votes it has the same effect as posting therefore placing it to the top of the list. By subscribing to the thread you'll be notified if anyone writes something.

I hoped the debate would have continued as vigorously as it did initially as there have been a number of worthwhile points made from both sides of the fence.

[Jetdriver]

Yes, the thread is contributed to by a simple vote in the poll or by an additional post. Either event will return the thread to the top of the forum.

I am not a particular fan of polls for a number of reasons, some of which have been alluded to in this thread already. However in accordance with the thread originators request it was compiled and attached. It will automatically close 60 days after inception (around the 19th April) unless there is a compelling reason to either curtail it earlier or extend it. At that freeze point it will remain visible to view, but only new posts will then affect the thread ranking.

[tobes]

:ugh:totally understand the pressure that balpa reps are under but in this day and age who isn't add to the fact that we are all paying a lot of money for the 'service'.......................why do i have to bark if i have a dog?

[Piltdown Man]

Tobes - When dealing with your own company, BALPA Reps. are only able to give your CC guidance as to where and when YOU should bark. Negotiation skills and training are one of the things you pay for with membership fees. So it's your job to ask your CC (assuming you are a member) to request XYZ on your behalf.

What this thread has highlighted more than anything else is pilots' misunderstanding of exactly how BALPA works within their companies and why it has to work in the way it does. I also believe that on a national BALPA should be more vociferous about P2F and security issues, but hey, like the rest of you, I'm thinking me and about my next month's pay and there BALPA is giving me value for money.

PM

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Number of Years Flying 35

Current Status/Employer Onshore single-pilot heli, ATPL(H), Bond Air Services

Option Selected Former member - Cancelled out of touch / not effective

Supporting Reason for Selection Joined BALPA prior to leaving the RAF on the strong recommendation of a colleague who had his career/sanity saved by BALPA's legal team after a (downright malicious) CAA prosecution for illegal low flying was virtually laughed out of court. Encouraged by the ability of BALPA and my first civvie employer to work together to produce terms of service which became pretty much the onshore industry's Best Practice norm.

Lost faith when our CC approached BALPA with a request for assistance with the "age 60" rule for single-pilot ops. After a long period with a noticeable lack of response, the CC received a typo-laden short message which showed BALPA's lack of real knowledge of the police/air ambulance/lighthouse support industry. Equalled only by the lack of any real interest.

Did some homework, realised that the onshore heli pilot workforce element of BALPA only comprised probably <1% of the membership and was therefore unlikely to make any headway against the Nigels. Further homework revealed that equivalent legal cover is available elsewhere, so left - giving reasons. Never did hear back from them, even after I wrote a follow-up email a year later to see if their policies regarding onshore heli pilots had changed.

[Man Flex]

There is a major test coming in the next few weeks for Balpa within easyJest. The outcome will no doubt have a significant impact on membership levels, one way or the other. The members have had enough and have made it quite clear to the CC that a line in the sand has been drawn. The next move may well decide Balpa's fate and the future of the airline industry as a whole.

And no, I'm not making an overstatement. :uhoh:

[dontdoit]

Experienced at what? BALPA membership? Flying? Representing yourself in a court of law when you've no legal backup?

[call100]

I would have thought the intelligent action to be fight from within. Put yourself up for election and do something about it. Too many people 'Vote with their feet' as an excuse not to put any effort in....

[Dream Buster]

BALPA and Cabin Air Quality - Five years on (http://www.aerotoxic.org/index.php/news-and-articles/495-balpa-and-cabin-air-quality-five-years-on)

Conclusions on the chronic ill health effects of BALPA members from Jim McAuslan, General Secretary - April 21st 2005, at the end of the CAQ conference in London.

Make your own conclusions.....

DB :eek:

[stakeknife]

I often wonder why people blame Balpa every time a company does something to erode T&C's, does anyone think to blame the company and perhaps support your representatives in influencing the company. The airlines with the best T&C's around the world generally have high union membership enabling a strong bargaining position. Are there times when I felt my reps didn't or couldn't help, probably but on the whole they work for the advancement of all our terms and conditions, at times that may not suit me personally, but I try to view this as a long term game over many years. If you are disgruntled, get involved and be an influence, don't walk away or you are playing into managements hands.

[clanger32]

Stakeknife,
What an interesting and well thought post (and actually, I'm not being sarcastic!).

You are very right, I suspect, that most people read "didn't do something *I* wanted done" as a personal sleight and then run away. However, I think it's probably a fair assessment that most that occupy the pointy end of commercial aircraft have a reasonable intellect. Therefore, most should be able to comprehend the concept that sometimes things for the greater good, cause - however unpalatable it might be - personal circumstances to deteriorate.

The problem, however comes if the picture of the greater good is not represented accurately or completely. The second problem comes if one only ever perceives that ones own circumstances are deteriorating and is not gaining any of the "benefit" to others.

Personally, as I have mentioned previously, I think Balpa is dangerously out of touch and has allowed itself to become a franchise model, whereby each company CC represent THAT company. There is no model to represent pilots as a whole. This in turn has allowed the huge variation of Ts&Cs - which in turn ALWAYS provides evidence to the companies offering the best conditions that they can provide worse conditions...which of course leads to the race to the bottom.

Personally I am a qualified, but inexperienced and - if reluctant truth be told - unlikely to ever work as a professional pilot now, due to a masterpiece of timing of my training (graduated Dec 08). So I do feel qualified to say that as a former student member (or whatever they called us) of BALPA, there is simply no value in the organisation [specifically talking of the needs of the newly qualified]. I have not seen BALPA do anything at all to help us at the lowest end of the food chain. We HAVE no CC in which to get involved to improve things and things in BALPA towers seem utterly unconcerned by us, as our fees are notional only. Therefore, we are reliant on "big" Balpa, to do stuff - as perceived appropriate by those who ARE working pilots for the long term benefit of the profession - on our behalf.
This is half the problem...it's not just the oft trotted "Balpa is the BA pilots union" it's that each CC can barely influence their own company, so stomach for a fight on behalf of faceless students, other companies and unemployed but experienced pilots is tending to zero...

[Barden]

Firstly, Clanger32, I'm very sorry your training appears to have come to nothing. It's a sad fact of life where individuals elect to put themselves through training there's a significant chance there won't be a job at the end of it. If you're heart's still in it, don't give up. I'm sure many of us who've been in the industry for a while will have come across stories of pilots breaking into the airline world after a significant flying hiatus after training. I remember chatting to a BAe146 Capt a few years ago; he trained in the early 90's and it took 6 years to get any sort of flying job. But your bad timing isn't BALPA's fault. In reality a union can only change things when it has someone to engage with - i.e. an employer. CC means Company Council and the clue is in the title!


Stakeknife's post is spot on. If more pilots took his mature and considered outlook, the profession would be in a much stronger position. Unfortunately pilots in general tend to be self-centred individuals who can't look beyond their own bank balance. Witness the regularity of the BALPA didn't do this me, BALPA didn't do that for me, yada yada yada. For a bunch of intelligent individuals, pilots are remarkably short signed and many are fuelled by greed and envy.

[ETOPS]

the regularity of the BALPA didn't do this me, BALPA didn't do that for me,

Strangely the "BALPA" referrred to here doesn't exist.

We are BALPA.

Just your fellow pilots sticking their necks out to try to counter the airlines wilder plans to have us all fly for free. The disgruntled pilot who blames us for failing almost never directs his anger at the managers responsible for eroding the terms and conditions. Easier to blame "the reps" (or colleagues as they are also called) then resign or refuse to get involved.

The fragmented nature of this industry and competing views of it's crews will never lead to unity but we can all do our bit to support the only credible body around.

I dread to think what things would be like without the efforts BALPA have put in over the last 25 years and I support my reps fully.

[clanger32]

Barden,
Firstly many thanks for your sympathy. I was not digging for or even hoping for such as a by product - merely stating a fact. I always knew that when I started training I was older than ideal and that there were no guarantees even in a good market. I'm very glad I did it, actually, because at least I gave my dream ((tm) - every wannabe, ever) my best shot - I can honestly say there's nothing I could really have done differently that would have made a difference. I know that come the final reckoning I won't have to wonder "what if I'd given it a go....". It was just unfortunate timing, but thems the breaks. At least I didn't bankrupt myself to do it! ;)

However, the point I was trying to relate when talking about my own position is purely that for those who are NOT flying regularly for an organisation, Balpa can't form a CC. Therefore I (and any others in my or a similar situation) CAN'T get involved and CAN'T help to improve things (picking up on stakeknifes post). Balpa - IMHO - do nothing whatsoever to help aviation as a whole and I feel strongly they'd do their OWN cause a huge amount of good if they would organise a body - a cross industry cc if you like - that functioned across ALL airlines that represented the needs and views of the industry as a whole - including all of us...the experienced and working, experienced but out of work, newly qualified and working, newly qualified and yet to find work and those training. Who would they engage with? The CAA. EASA. The government....this industry desperately needs someone to fight to stop the things that are independent of compant, but that affect every facet of aviation - FCL, FTL, P2F etc. Balpa is the only obvious choice to do this, but currently it is set up to ONLY react to individual airline fights and serve those who are currently working...and inevitably this leads to the industry idetiorating and a feeling of disenchantment with the union as a whole from those that the union [appears to have] distanced itself from.
On the rest of your post, I wholeheartedly agree - I suspect our views are very similar overall...