Start CPL without all ATPL subjects?

[Okavango]

Hi. My understanding is that it's possible to start CPL flight training without all ATPL Theoretical Knowledge passes (100 hrs P1, 150hrs TT and Night Qualification required to start training). However, you must have passes in all subjects before you can take the test. Is this still correct?

[XXPLOD]

I's imagine that providing you had the subjects that met the CPL syllabus (9 subjects) but not the 14 ATPLs you'd be OK to start the flight training. Wouldn't be able to the IR until all 14 passed.

[Whirlygig]

Yes, your understanding is correct but, given the CPL course is only a few weeks full-time and you wouldn't want to leave too much time between training and test, it's a risky strategy.

If you're doing ATPL exams then all of them should be passed - the CAA will know for which ones you've been registered. There's no such thing as CPL only subjects; the CPL syllabus is just a cut down version of ATPL (e.g. Navigation comprises Gen Nav and Radio Nav).

Cheers

Whirls

[Shunter]

Have a look at LASORS which gives details of cross-crediting ATPL exams for the CPL syllabus. It's not as straightforward as you might think.

[Okavango]

Yes - I'd be doing the CPL flight training part time over say 4 months so it just gives me that little extra time before I'd have to commit to the IR. Lazors (2008) just says that you need passes in all theoretical knowledge subjects before undertaking the Skill Test. Not sure if this has since been updated. My local FTO seems to state the same:

"Prior to commencement of your training you would need to have amassed a total experience level of 150 hours of which 100 hours must be as pilot in command.
For the issue of your CPL you will need to pass 14 theoretical examinations and undergo 25 hours of flight training. You will also need a Class 1 Medical."

Any other persons understanding of the current situation much appreciated.

[mcgoo]

Why not just finish the exams before you do the CPL?, if you're rushing to fill a job space fair enough but what if you fail an exam?, that would set you back 2 months and if you finish the CPL course it will cost you a lot more to stay current until you can sit the exam and then the test.

[Okavango]

I'm not going to fail VFR or IR Comms. We're going round in circles, I'm sure of what I want to do, I'm just needing to clarify if it's possible.

[Whirlygig]

How does your school feel about you doing your CPL with an hour and a half a week on average? I would have thought that you would benefit from more continuity and you may end up having to refresh each time.

Cheers

Whirls

[clear prop!!!]

Whirls is spot on

As an ex CPL instructor, I can assure you that students who spread training over an extended period, take many more hours overall to get through, ...it's going to cost you a lot more.

Continuity is key, your skills will fall off dramatically even in a week!

Even more so with your IR!

Yes, you can start before your ATPL's, but why?..A lot of the GS stuff helps you understand the practical training.

[BillieBob]

Lazors (2008) just says that you need passes in all theoretical knowledge subjects before undertaking the Skill Test. Not sure if this has since been updated.Forget LASORS - even when it's up to date it's packed with errors. The real requirement is in JAR-FCL 1.030(e), which reads:

Before a skill test for the issue of a licence or rating is taken the applicant shall have passed the associated theoretical knowledge examination, provided that exceptions may be made by the Authority for applicants undergoing a course of integrated flying training.

So the answer to the original question is that it is possible to start CPL flight training without all ATPL Theoretical Knowledge passes. However, I fully agree with Whirls and clearprop - it would not be a very clever idea to do so.

[clunk1001]

You are correct. I nearly did it the way you are planning but I did it full time in the end.
There is one issue doing it part time not mentioned here yet…..
...So as a favour to other Ppruners, if you do train part time for your CPL, please let us all know what day during the week you are intending to fly – and we’ll all make sure we have our umbrellas with us :). Because you can bet your coveted shiny blue licence cover that on that day (and that day only) it will p|ss down like some Old Testament style wrath of God tsunami!
If you’re unlucky you might not fly for months due to weather or aircraft going u/s – I have seen it happen. And this is where your 25 hours will become more like 50 hours.
Good luck anyway…
(By the way I was serious about letting us know which day you intend to fly, I hate rain!) :E

[Okavango]

Thanks all, that's pretty conclusive. I'll double check with the schools I'm considering, but like I said above my local FTO doesn't seem to consider it a problem.

Thanks also for further advice on my 'plan'. I managed 45hrs for my PPL in 4 months so don't see why I shouldn't get through the CPL in the same time or shorter in terms of weather, a/c and instructor and my availability.

I also understand what people are saying about continuity, though at the end of the day I'm not aiming to be CPL standard just for my test day - it's the standard I'm trying to apply all the time and this is the way I'm approaching hour building as well. If my developing skills were to just fall away after the course then that in my view would be the biggest cost to me. At the end of the day I need to build it around a full time job so the decision is made for me.