Hope for the new guys - The first shoots

[Dreamshiner]

Feeling all brotherly as for the first time since I started flying I saw evidence the other day of pilots further up the food chain actually talking about making a stand for those looking to get their foot into the airline industry.

It's been well documented on here some of the schemes on offer via Easyjet and alike where either the need for income or aspiration of the job is played on by airline accountants/executives to exploit newly qualified pilots.

Finally I have seen an example of captains and senior f/o's looking to address a problem that a number on here (myself included) thought wasn't possible due to a general attitude of looking out for number 1 (through our whole society rather than just our profession).

I'm glad to say that despite being in its infancy, I feel a snowball has been released down a hill and it could gain momentum. I'm only sorry to say that BALPA haven't been the catalyst for this, it has grown elsewhere.

Realisation has started to set in that if pilots now entering the market are in a position of being offered options such as paying upwards of £30k for a TR + line hours scheme, 7 months on 5 months off contracts will ultimately erode their future T&C's and benefits. A senior f/o gaining promotion to capt will have to sign a new contract with terms partly influenced by what executives have got/will try to get away with at the lower levels.

I'm also glad to say that a number of captains are unhappy and urging solidarity too, a feeling of unfairness and (who would have thought it) walking that mile in another man's (replace with "younger pilot's") shoes to compare things now to when they started out.

Knowledge in the fact these newbie pilots have no promises, only hopes that their indignant initial contract may be improved or extended. But who is to say that will happen when they can easily be shunted aside, put on a hold pool list after 1 or 2 years from their start date? Who is to know if they will go again via a school or advertise for more £30k+ ers to help the balance sheet and keep the shareholders happy rather than offer a contract to the discarded pilot that comes with the benefits and standard pre-requisites that is expected in our profession (loss of licence insurance, medicals, pension, full employee opposed to summer only).

An understanding that some of the more unscrupulous airline management know there will always be people to help fund their balance sheet means that the message is getting out there to people who can really influence the airlines.

Be aware, the pilots with clout in this industry are now wincing at the smell of this behaviour by their airlines and even though it is just talk at present but I hope it progresses and escalates exponentially.

NB I can't reveal the airline in question as it would betray the confidence placed in me and may pre-warn the management that things are stirring, so please don't ask either publicly or by PM.

[Piltdown Man]

Noble sentiments indeed and I agree with your prediction regarding new captains being screwed along with the bottom feeders who are paying for their type rating and line flying. Except for two things. Firstly, BALPA isn't someone else, it's us. It is a club in which we all have a say, both at national level but more importantly within the companies where they are recognised. If your colleagues aren't members, haven't obtained recognition or have decided to bother with what happens to the bottom feeders, then that's not a BALPA issue. It is one for your colleagues to answer.

But the most important bit has been missed. When HR screw you over, like they are doing with the bottom feeders at the moment, they do so knowing that they are untouchable. No matter the level indignation escalation, even if exponentially, sod all will happen to your T's & C's. To make management change you have to have them by THEIR balls. When they already have their hands inside your trousers (like it appears that they have in your case), your prognosis is not good.

To change, you need union recognition. Currently, the best one we have BALPA.

Best of luck.

PM

[Pilot Chris]

Yes, noble sentiments Dreamshiner, it is clear that everyone will eventually suffer from this.

Unfortunately, whilst every chap you sit next to will state that things are shocking, horrific etc etc (no one is going to say 'yeah, things are great, I love what they are doing to you guys!), this doesn't mean there will be any action whatsoever. As above, only the union can act.... and they won't. If they were planning on it, wouldn't they have acted already beyond a poorly researched article saying cadets suck?

[First.officer]

Have heard similar things pilot chris.....so will echo what you've heard....seems a little stirring is happening (albeit on a small-ish scale) within more than one company, most definitely within one of the Lo-Co's for certain !

[stansdead]

I wouldn't worry too much about it to be honest.

From what I hear, a certain A320 lo-co who are growing rapidly are struggling to fill all the seats they need to with anywhere near the candidate level required.

I'm also led to believe that an Irish airline are struggling to find enough FO's to promote at the minute, and that once again, the quality of applicant for external jobs has decreased markedly.

They can say what they like, and tell us they have 1000's of applicants, but.....they don't. They may have 1000's of names on a server, but when the chips are down, most won't join.

There IS going to be a shortage of suitably qualified, experienced people this year and going forward.

There may never be a shortage of 200 hour heroes, but the fact that there is a real shortage of experience will, by necessity, stop this recession led, pay to fly nonsense.

You heard it here first. It's not got long to go.

My advice if you've got a licence. Don't buy a rating. Wait another 3 months. See what's happening then.

[bellyfluffer]

Deamshiner - I hope you are right, it seems a strong feeling in all of us however very few seem to be willing to fight it.

Piltdown Man - Balpa? Us? Not me Im afraid, I may pay my dues and have access to the forum but trying to get help or an answer to any question is a forlorn experience. Balpa in my opinion is a toothless dinosaur that only looks after itself.

A certain major airline out of Heathrow plans to continue pay2fly whilst making a lot of us redundant! Now that stings!!!!

[First.officer]

Stansdead - heard very similar things, nice to have it confirmed by others ! lol

Apparently a certain orange-ish carrier are being a little more friendly in their dealings with staff these days which to my mind would suggest they know that the market is slowly picking up for more experienced guys and that maybe, just maybe they realise that if t's & c's are eroded much further then an exodus of current staff may (i say may) be on the cards - will be interesting to watch and see how things recover over the coming months and years !

[Dreamshiner]

Pitdown Man - I'm sorry to say my experience of BALPA is an organisation out of touch and not wiling to rock the boat when/if they decide to get involved. Bellyfluffer's description of a toothless dinosaur is actually a compliment in my book. They won't be forced into action until a main revenue stream is attacked, as yet it hasn't happened.

When you hear of things like the Canadian pilots at TCX on a reciprocal deal but it isn't fair you really wonder if it is incompetence or naivety that allowed the contract to be agreed to and signed.

This isn't the only example, the list goes on and on.

[Dreamshiner]

Problem is polax, BALPA haven't really covered themselves in glory with their record so far. I tend to leave blind faith to those who are into religion.

[StressFree]

BALPA,
Oh dear, if anyone thinks that BALPA will be of any use then just look at where we currently are...............Dreamshiner is spot on.

I've been in this business for 22 years now and it depresses me to see what we've become, all under the clear view of BALPA. I paid my BALPA fees for a while but gave up due to the hopeless, helpless and hapless people who claim to look after our interests. Can you imagine any other profession, ANY OTHER PROFESSION, that would allow it to become what we have. I'm ashamed and will try my hardest to stop my son following me into this game............:(

[Leezyjet]

Well Gents, BALPA is all we've got

Forgive me for being a bit naive in the area of unions, but what's to stop a group of like minded pilots getting together and starting up a new union ?. Other industries have more than 1, why not pilots ?. :confused:

Sadly from what dealings I've had with pilots, they seem to be all mouth, no trousers, and always looking out for No.1. (I know this doesn't apply to all, before you start bashing me - there are still some good guys out there - but are there enough to make a difference ?).

As much as I'd like to believe what I'm reading here, I feel that sadly when my turn comes for that first flying job, I'll still end up having to stump up the cash.

:sad:

[Chuffer Chadley]

Chaps

BALPA isn't all we've got. IPA/IPF also exists, and may be worth a look for those who are dissatisfied with the former.

Just a thought...

CC

[Dreamshiner]

I think its safe to say paying for a TR or obtaining an instructor rating is now expected so any new people entering the market should factor the cost into their initial sums. To avoid doing so is burying your head in the sand.

Things may change when employers can't satisfy demand, but that's a few years off and I think the damage has already been done. The extra level of training now exists because someone working for an airline said "why not ask them to pay", it was trialled and they got an interest, the airline exec got a bonus.

There is another pilot body in the UK, the IPA was formed (correct me if I'm wrong) after the demise of Dan Air initially as a group tasked with looking out for their welfare. Over time morphed into a union.

My own research into them was they charged £6 for an unemployed/student member, I would imagine they would look for a similar percentage of the salary as BALPA for those working.

The impression I got was they had good intentions but I was sure if they had much teeth when it came to negotiating or recognition due to the smallish member base.

[flyprototype]

It's just a question of time that wanabes realize they will never get a job with 500hours on the bus and a total time of 700hours.

Schools are shooting a bullet in their own feet. Who want join a school and pay over 100k and be in debt for 10 years knowing there is no career anymore in aviation and the only end is to lose your house or if you're lucky, go bankrupt.


Still , most airlines around the world will ask for 1500-2000 hours total, so many easywhore pilots won't find a real paid job.They pay over 100k just to have fun for a few months on the bus, and be in hell for the next 10 years....not worth it!:yuk:

[Dreamshiner]

First, thanks to those who sent PM's thanking me for posting this thread.

Second, its been a tough time for our industry, nobody can deny this and it's highlighted for new pilots entering it.

When I think of everything that's happened so far this decade I think you have go back to the 70's to get anything close and even then it wasn't on the same scale as the past 10 years:

2001 9-11
2002 SARS
2003 War in Iraq
2007 Worldwide Recession
2008 $140 barrel of Oil
2009 Swine Flu

No doubt there are other world events I have missed affecting aviation, however don't forget the retirement age being extended to 65 at a lot of airlines reducing recruitment needs and promotion prospects for a few years. Consolidation of a number of airlines resulting in recruitment freezes and redundancies.

As for BALPA, I can't help feeling they are just not getting it. There are serious issues affecting indigenous British/UK based pilots. I list 7-5 contracts, hiring of foreign nationals on reciprocal agreements (however it appears to be leaning heavily one way) and the constant raising of the training threshold (and consequently costs) newly qualified pilots have to attain to get into the industry. I keep on returning to the image of the behaviour of the pigs in Orwell's Animal Farm when I think of our union.

I signed on to the website last night and read through their forum. Very quick to congratulate themselves for getting PaddyPower to stop taking bets on next airline to go tits up, however I didn't see one response from any BALPA exec on the Easyjet/CTC/Pay 2 Fly scheme thread despite going onto 5 pages.

On the pertinent issues their priorities are questionable and their silence is deafening.

[4star]

This is a little 'off the cuff' in terms of a reply as I am dashing out but I agree re BALPA.

Lets stop making excuses for BALPA. (they need more members etc etc) The current members don't necessarily expect them to change things but BALPA don't even seem to fully acknowledge the demise in terms and conditions that have occurred/are occurring. If they did then we would hear more from them and there would be less need constantly raise the subject on forums like this.

BALPA should be taking the lead. They should be leading us and they don't. They don't even respond to the anger/frustration of the members.

I have come to the conclusion that we need BA guys to become involved more. I say this because for a long time they and others have probably held the view that what the loco's get up to is a matter for them. If you are daft enough to accept the terms and conditions then more fool you, etc etc. But they must see that the way some loco's operate gives them a competitive advantage which will over time effect them. The loco's get stronger and expand, tighten their grip and you will weaken or at the very least have to so alter your T & C to compete. For now its the FO's/short haul thats most effected. Soon it will be LH and Capt's.

They, I believe/hope can influence BALPA to take the issue and its members frustration seriously.

[Orvil]

Hi,
I agree with most comments with regard to BALPA. The way they undertake their duties is to put it mildly, shocking. It always use to amaze me when I use to recieve the log, how many finance adverts, articles etc were in it. The best one ever was the one about buying your retirement yacht and how not to pay tax on it. Superb!!

May be they could extend it for the newbies with regard to Bankruptcy, family tax credits, signing-on for your first time, etc..

Unfortunately, the rot as set in. Out of 5 of my colleagues that I trained with 3 paid for line-training and TR. Myself and another had to pay for a TR. The 3 that paid for the line-training, 2 are sons of multi-millionaires and the other is a foreign national who's government paid for it !

BALPA is finished in my eyes, a pretencious organisation not fit for purpose, who's fees are ridiculous. They make estate agents look honest.

The IPA is not a union and they even say so. It's a welfare association and thats it.

TGWU is the only UNION now. Look how they treat their members, Tube drivers £50,000 a year. Now they have balls. They may seem militant but better to be militant than ineffective.

Best regards

[al446]

TGWU is now called Unite after merging with several others, read it on their website or wiki.

I have long been an advocate of BALPA getting under the folds of Unite but, until that happens, I think that Unite would direct you to BALPA if you wished to join, my info may be out of date so don't take my word on it.

[Piltdown Man]

BALPA isn't the leader nor is it the agenda setter. It is a union of its members and they set its direction. Their job is not to trailblaze nor does it exist to rock the boat. Unless of course, it's members want to take action. And the way that happens nowadays, because of that heartless bitch Thatcher, is company by company. Every time you take action, you have to follow the law, letter by letter. I have been down that road and we came to an agreement (thank you Jenny, Carl et al). In doing so, we are receiving the benefit of our membership on a regular, ongoing basis.

But I have to ask - just how exactly can BALPA persuade an employer or an industry to change its ways? Realistically there is not a hope. Today, changes have to be forced through on company by company basis. You have to be prepared to pay hardball and REALLY be prepare to go on STRIKE. No pain, no gain. The clever bit is make the pain one sided. And that is where BALPA help. So to the mouth and trousers brigade, when was the last time you balloted for industrial action?

I'll give you the fancy fire-lighter called "The Log" is a bit beyond me. The ads, personals and articles are aimed at people who work in a different profession to me. This publication does the union no good whatsoever and merely serves to make its apparent readership a bunch of overpaid sky-gods.

But if you work for a UK company, you have to have a proper union. Whatever you say about BALPA, it is still the only thing we have. But it is arranged in such a way that YOU control its support in YOUR company to affect YOUR T's & C's. So if you feel it's not working for you, you are either in the minority or not actively playing your part. Or maybe you are not even a member.

PM

[Dreamshiner]

Essentially BALPA is a business PM, not very many businesses who wish to survive sit by and watch idly as their customer and income base is eroded when they can influence it.

If 50 unemployed/students (£2 a month) asked them to do something or 2 BA pilots paying their 1%, who do you think they would prioritise. Democracy and fairness would suggest the former, reality and commercial income means the latter.

An industry/employer could have been influenced in its activities if it was scrutinised rigorously rather than allowed to implement, watch others follow suit and then seemingly ignore in the hope it will go away.

Don't be naive to suggest that pilots upon gaining their first airline job would want to or be in a position to rock the boat by turning into little Skargill until they were established and safe on the seniority list.

As an industry body they should be scanning all media outlets and using every means possible of gathering intelligence regarding this industry. When something blatantly flouts what has gone before they should be all over it like a rash. I want my industry body acting as opposed to reacting. However it seems to me they are more concerned about the colour of the toilet paper in a BA social club.

Just one look at their forum (if you have access) confirms to me they aren't using initiative to act in advance of negative issues for us and are in fact going after easy issues to fill press releases. I don't want the general secretary composing and drafting a letter to PaddyPower and MP's about bets, I want him suing his time better by going to TCX and saying, "so this Canadian thing, baseless mumblings on PPRuNe isn't it?". They monitor that and no doubt these boards and do we ever hear/see anything with any oomph.

I sincerely think a lot of the issues I have already listed will affect us all from 250TT CPL'ers to 20,000 TRI/TRE'ers.

However this thread wasn't started to end up as a BALPA bash, it was to highlight that those who are seemingly safe on the seniority lists from any upheaval are actually starting to show real empathy with those on the first rung of their careers and unite behind a common theme. I was just saddened that BALPA weren't the catalyst.

[Dartsinsync]

My own research into them was they charged £6 for an unemployed/student member, I would imagine they would look for a similar percentage of the salary as BALPA for those working.

In fact the full membership rate for employed members is as follows:
Category 1 (Full IPA/IPF) £14 monthly.
Welcome to the IPA (http://www.ipapilot.com/)

As far as BALPA being the only choice available is concerned - It was Mandy Rice-Davis who once said 'They would say that wouldn't they?'
Just have a look, no outlandish promises, posted in the interests of a balanced view.

[Piltdown Man]

...more concerned about the colour of the toilet paper in a BA social club.

Precisely! "If you don't give me soft paper in a shade that matches my underpants, I'll not be working". Correct shade and softness arrives. Radical action is performed locally on a company by company basis.

I'll repeat - BALPA's real agenda is set locally by its members. The CCs are the guys who negotiate on behalf of the company's membership. Dreamshiner, your beef has to be with your CC and your colleagues higher up the tree. Also, don't forget, a union is not there to represent non-members. So if the bottom-feeding muppets aren't members, they won't have a say.

PM

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

Chuffer Chadley and others - BALPA IS all we have got. The IPA/IPF are undoubtedly sincere and genuine people who somehow think that paying 5 bob a year and wearing an IPA lanyard means they are showing support for their colleagues whilst not soiling their souls by supporting BALPA. All you are doing is showing yourselves to be naive. The IPA have never achieved anything for anyone, and can never do so without the overwhelming majority of pilots supporting them. It costs money to run a proper union and fight court cases. The IPA/IPF have not got 2 halfpennies to rub together and can never be anything other than a distraction to the main battle. I know you are good people and mean well, but you are simply causing more hassle than you are stopping by trying to steer support to a powerless organisation that can never do anything. How easyJet management would just love to be dealing with you rather than BALPA.

[4star]

PM - yes you are correct that is exactly the way BALPA works. But that is not necessarily the way things have to be. BALPA could lead instead of react. It could say to its members "hey these are some issue's which we feel are having a detrimental effect on your working conditions - and we feel that an appropriate response is x,y,z". Other Unions seem capable of looking at issue's which effect their members on a national level.

I made the point that until the BA guys are on board I don't see BALPA taking on some of the bigger issue's because I appreciate that in reality the above is not going to happen. I hope that even BA are coming to see the threat posed by some of the activities of the Loco's and their business model. It will not save you if you are number 1 on the priority list when the whole company goes pop.

[Dreamshiner]

How easyJet management would just love to be dealing with you rather than BALPA

Yes but it seems to be the unable led by the incapable.

Also, don't forget, a union is not there to represent non-members. So if the bottom-feeding muppets aren't members, they won't have a say

Please define who or what a "bottom feeding muppet" is. Also, the unemployed and disenfranchised don't have a rep they can go to. As I pointed out before, how much sway does someone really have who is paying £2 a month.

I started another thread to discuss perceptions of BALPA, awaiting it changing to a Poll if possible. This one was composed as a glass half-full outlook on how things may be changing. Can I suggest any BALPA conversations switch and this is kept with additions/comments surrounding the greater pilot community appearing to sing with one voice.

[Dreamshiner]

I need to find employment to have that luxury Vexed.

I think there is a place for unions, collective bargaining can and does work when it is done correctly. However to answer the question you posed, at present if hypothetically employed I fear I'd have to piggy back on the more experienced pilots in the company who had more sway, established relationships and respect. The current climate isn't one where the last guy in the door can go making demands/issuing edicts.

My solution to the current mire (yes I say mire) is that the current leadership either need to re-evaluate their position or overhaul their strategy. Maybe then the loopholes would be plugged, the bigger pictures looked at, intelligence and forward thought applied to negotiations and initiatives put in place to safeguard pilots.

As Daddy-Oh pointed out in the Poll thread I started, "an Inter City Train Driver & a non-BA Airline Captain has diminished to almost parity", I would be interested to know the differences between these two roles salaries and benefits packages at 10/20/30 year intervals from today. What that shows me at a first glance is that there are some transport workers who have effective representation and some who don't.

If you are expecting me to have a prepared solution then I have to admit I don't (if I was looking to be elected to general secretary then perhaps I would have a 10 year plan and a manifesto) - as a disgruntled pilot I am venting steam on a forum designed to foster debate and discussion.

I was unaware those posting on the (picked randomly from current T&E forum, page 1) "Jet4You Casablanca Roster" would offer a better method for the crewing department to adopt, or those highlighting "Highland Airways" woes would offer a financial recovery plan.

It happens often on here that if you find fault with something then you are asked to give an alternative or solution. Why exactly? Does my lack of solutions make my comments so far not carry any weight or is there a lack of truth in my accusations in your eyes?

If I had the answer and solution to all questions then I wouldn't be a pilot, I'd be world leader/deity. Feel free to leave an offering via Paypal.

[Dreamshiner]

For all those who may have subscribed to this thread, just to let you know I started a vote on BALPA as felt this one was going off topic.

Please feel free to go over and vote and continue union discussions there rather than here.

Much Love

DS

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

Dreamshiner - for reasons best known to yourself you have taken an overwhelming dislike to BALPA and set about destroying it at the very time it needs most support. From what I can glean you are a new pilot starting out or possibly one who has recently lost his job. I genuinely wish you well in that pursuit but the fact you do not have or have recently lost your job is not BALPA's fault. We are living in the worst recession in living memory and terrible things are happening to airlines round the world. You also do not seem to have grasped that any victories BALPA win can only be achieved by the support of their members. Most CCs are faced with managers who know that right now if they sacked their pilots they could replace the whole lot almost immediately with a fresh set. That will not always be the case, but right now pilots are in the weakest negotiating position they have experienced in my working lifetime. To somehow blame BALPA for this is at best naive. You have no grasp whatsoever of the realities of our industry right now and are simply a muck-raker trying to bring down BALPA because of your own personal difficulties.

Listening to some of the ill-informed comments on this thread, I am amazed at the lack of insight some contributors have to the realities under which we are living right now. They think that BALPA just swan into the Operations Director's office, demand a 15% pay rise and sit back to eventually receive 13% instead. Managers in our industry right now do not care if your or I live or die. We are facing voracious and immoral managers who can only see to guide their companies to the next bonus cycle. These are short term thinkers who are without a conscience and lack any real insight into the long term. BALPA are the ONLY defence we have, and all the reps I know are giving their waking hours to fighting our cause for little or no reward. All they recieve in return are the frankly pathetic polls of the type Dreamshiner is proposing. They simply undermine the support base of the Union even further and just pour petrol on troubled waters at a time when clear thinking and sensible actions are called for.

[Dreamshiner]

A pathetic poll you proceeded to post your vote on post #3 before its was upgraded. Without a call for cancellation.

Like BALPA management, rather than highlighting your opinion in advance and saying "this isn't the way forward" you wait till it's up and running and then spit the dummy.

From reading your previous posts I must admit I didn't get your strength of opinion.

By making it a vote it gives everyone a voice for little effort. As I pointed out, you are 20x more likely to complain than to praise so a mere click without having to take the time out to write a response would allow ALL to freely share their opinions.

I'm sure its of no surprise to you I feel BALPA's senior management, legal and negotiation teams are grossly irresponsible and doing significant damage to the cause of pilots. They are the ones truely playing into the hands of unscrupulous management. Do you think the execs rub their hands with glee at a thread on PPRuNe or because the union is not fit for purpose. The company reps can only fight with the weapons given to them, I don't doubt the integrity and endeavour of the reps, however they are being given blunt and obsolete weapons to fight their corner.

BALPA has turned into a per company organisation rather than universal, if it still was there wouldn't be the same erosion and more solidarity. I'm not going to sit on my thumbs to watch idly.

I don't want to destroy BALPA, I want it to reinvent itself and regain its voice and balls.

The poll thread may turn out to be tough love.

[olster]

spot on NSF

[Orvil]

Sorry al446, too many name changes since I last looked! However, I hope you understand my argument.

Pm, "Bottom Feeding Muppets" ? Is that what you think of your fellow professionals who are either unemployed or a newbie? Amazing.
Unions I believe should represent everybody including non-members. Its called "winning over the customer ", if they show interest the customer generally comes back even if its more expensive ie. John Lewis.
No doubt you will say its different but its not.

I was talking to my Big Bro a few weeks ago about the cadet pilot schemes and PTF scam. He was amazed. First thing He said was "What's the Union doing?", "Nothing" I replied. He was in shock and told me when He was an apprentice engineer. The Union looked after them even though they were not full members. It was in their own interest to look after them. They were their future members.
I honestly believe BALPA is cutting its own throat. It could do so much more to help/advice newbies, unemployed Pilots etc.
Its a shame really that we've got to this point of discussing BALPA on a public forum to get them to listen.
I agree that it needs root and branch overall as the present system is not effective and plays into the hands of airline management.

[Dreamshiner]

For me there are 5 villains who's culpability in the whole P2F debacle is still to be determined. As to what percentage should be apportioned to each group then I'm sure everyone has an opinion.

The 5 villains:

1./ The Airline (or more specifically the execs) for proposing/agreeing to implement P2F.
2./ The school or middleman who acts as a broker where their income is paramount opposed to the welfare or future career of the pilot.
3./ The low houred/newly qualified pilot for paying a commercial company on a revenue generating flight to get ahead.
4./ BALPA for not nipping this in the bud when the first chancer tried it on, now a precedent has been set and its widespread. Poor lobbying of government/schools/airlines/members.
5./ The current government for not making this illegal and social attitudes promoted by previous governments which instilled a "all about number 1" mentality into our society.

[stansdead]

So, by your methodology, everyone is to blame.

That won't help get rid of an "i'm alright Jack" attitude will it? We'll all just keep blaming each other and doing what suits us best....

[Dreamshiner]

Not at all Stansdead,

As I said in my post, the level of culpability in this whole sorry affair has yet to be apportioned, some of the 5 villains will be more responsible than others.

As to who can hold their head up high, be sheer process of elimination it would be those who are involved in some way in 1-5 and chose not to adopt or countenance the implementation of this practice.

However, just to be clear - I would list pilots who have decided for moral (or financial) reasons not to stoop to base level. Airlines and Schools who have sent these vultures (P2F administrators and facilitators) packing. BALPA CC's/employees who want to take this on but have their hands tied from above. MP's who are creating a stir. Finally pilots who have been in employment for long enough/or lucky to avoid this trend and are sharing their disgust (what this thread is about - along with a few other issues).

Not quite everybody.