KLM 737 @t EHAM & Aeroflot 737 @ ENGM taxiway take-off

[ATCast]

According to a Dutch new site a KLM Boeing 737 took of from a taxiway yesterday (Wednesday) evening.


Vliegtuig steeg op vanaf taxibaan | nu.nl/algemeen | Het laatste nieuws het eerst op nu.nl (http://www.nu.nl/algemeen/2182654/vliegtuig-steeg-taxibaan.html)
A quick and loose translation of the major part of the article.

"The aircraft was to take off from the Zwanenburg baan (36C) but took off from the parallel taxiway instead. According to air traffic control the aircraft departed without problems, but without adhering to the procedures.

All three parties involved (KLM, LVNL, Schiphol) will not comment further on the matter.

The incident was reported to the Onderzoeksraad voor Veiligheid (Investigation Board) which will investigate the incident. According to a spokesman, this is a runway incursion and it is classified as a serious incident.

The president of the Dutch ALPA, Evert van Zwol, speculates that recent snowfall might have played a roll in the incident.

[Grond]

" According to a spokesman, this is a runway incursion and it is classified as a serious incident."

Does he mean that it wasn't a runway incursion which is why it is a serious incident:):)

[Pointer]

It is however a very curious incident, this being their home turf, snow or no snow,i would say this might have implications in the CRM field?

it is being down played by all concerned but on a busy airport like SPL, this could have easily turned nasty...

[Lafyar Cokov]

I can see how he did it - there have been a number of times when I 'have known of' pilots who - when told to call 'ground west' after crossing 36C (on their way to 36L) have called after crossing the first taxiway.

No excuse obviously - but easier to do than one would imagine!

[BarbiesBoyfriend]

AMS is the most confusing airport I've ever worked at.

Unsurprisingly, I have no idea how this happened.

The ATC guys are TOO smart. That is for sure. They treat everyone as a local.

[pilot999]

Sher.
It's not poshable:D

[babemagnet]

Strange because a friend of mine who flies at klm told me they only have super pilots! They had the best training and are super good. When i walk at schiphol they feel so good they dont say hi.

[Sobelena]

Arrogance is a Dutch trait. Sometimes it comes and bites them in the ar$e. I am however generalising and, without any facts, it's not fair to this particular crew - yet.

[lurkio]

Does anyone know which of the parallel taxiways near 36C they took off from?

[HeadingSouth]

...and I always thought taxiways and runways had a different lighting system. obviously there must have been tons of snow...

[250 kts]

Strange because a friend of mine who flies at klm told me they only have super pilots! They had the best training and are super good

Interesting that they are the one's who I find question ATC instructions the most.

"What you want us to only do 270kts but we can get past the company a/c ahead of us"-not unusual. The reply usually is-"and what about the 2 in front of that one"?

They are not so good at advising when they are flying at particularly slow speeds when they are running early either. The other day a B738 at M.67-not a word said till asked.

There is a very noticeable difference between the ex-AirUK guys who fly for them and the native Dutch.

[babemagnet]

http://images3.jetphotos.net/img/2/6/4/3/38675_1125458346.jpg

[babemagnet]

i think they took of from taxiway bravo northbound (where the fokker 70 is taxieen on the picture)

[HotelT]

Funny, why do I feel like I am at the bar of a banner towing company ? :rolleyes:

Anyway, SPL need no longer complain about a shortage of Runways :E

[haughtney1]

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhtop!:E

Never found the place particularly confusing, sh1t happens though..the skippers surname wasn't van Zanten was it?

[Ginetta]

No comment from S.F.L.Y; the silence is deafening.
:rolleyes:

[GlueBall]

. . . meanwhile, the snow has cleared. :ok:

[ESPat]

Is there any news on the flight# / aircraft involved? I'm asking because my gf flew AMS-VIE on KL1849 with PH-BTI on that particular evening and I'm curious to know if this could have been her flight.

[BOAC]

Sheesh! Must have scared the doobies out of that little Fokker.

[Storminnorm]

There have been similar problems at LGW with people getting
confused between 28L and 28R, the "Emergency" runway, IIRC?

[johan_jnb]

haughtney1... :ugh:bad taste mate...

[coltrane]

Is there any news on the flight# / aircraft involved? I'm asking because my gf flew AMS-VIE on KL1849 with PH-BTI on that particular evening and I'm curious to know if this could have been her flight

according to the aviation herald (Incident: KLM B737 at Amsterdam on Feb 10th 2010, took off taxiway (http://www.avherald.com/h?article=4272f72c&opt=0))

The Aviation Herald determined three KLM Boeing 737s taking off in the time on Wednesday (Feb 10th) between 16:30L and 19:30L (15:30-18:30Z), during which runway 36C was used for takeoff:

16:38L: flight KL-1247 to Billund (Denmark), Boeing 737-800 registration PH-BXF
17:38L: flight KL-1933 to Geneva (Switzerland), Boeing 737-800 registration PH-BXM
18:20L: flight KL-1093 to Manchester,EN (UK), Boeing 737-300 registration PH-BTD

[Pilot Pete]

There have been similar problems at LGW with people getting
confused between 28L and 28R, the "Emergency" runway, IIRC? Certainly some confusion regarding LGW there I'd say!:p

[blimey]

LGW events due wip on the main, and the taxyway lighting now has a big kink in it.

Gatwick near-disaster is blamed on aviation body - UK, News - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/gatwick-neardisaster-is-blamed-on-aviation-body-1422677.html)

[haughtney1]

haughtney1... bad taste mate...

Nope don't think so......and if you knew some of the KLM pilots I've had the misfortune to interact with at the crew centre in AMS..:ugh:

In fairness...I should add thats' not my opinion of all KLM pilots..just of the ones I've met:8

[Otterman]

Sigh. Be honest about your real grudge, your posts on this subject are just sad.:=:yuk::ugh:

[IFIX]

I'm wondering about the CVR recordings, most CVR's I know of only have a two hour recording span.
If the recorder was not replaced/read within this timespan this information will have been lost...
Certainly from a human factor angle that would be a costly loss of information.

ifix

[babemagnet]

Some more info:



Dutch investigators have opened an inquiry after a KLM (http://www.flightglobal.com/landingpage/klm.html) Boeing 737 (http://www.flightglobal.com/landingpage/boeing%20737.html)-300 took off from a taxiway at Amsterdam Schiphol yesterday.
The aircraft, registered PH-BDP, was departing on a service to Warsaw when the incident occurred.
Flight KL1369 was supposed to use runway 36C but instead took off from taxiway B which runs parallel on the eastern side.
A spokeswoman for the Dutch Safety Board states that the incident is being classified as "serious" by the investigators.
The aircraft continue to Warsaw and the crew was interviewed on return, she adds.
KLM lists KL1369's scheduled departure time as 20:20 and the spokesman says the incident took place at 20:36.
Amsterdam Schiphol would have been in darkness at this time. Meteorological data from the airport shows good visibility and weather conditions at the time.

[Long Haul]

If you have taxied south on Bravo then done a 180 and taken off on 36C a million times, and then for once are assigned taxiway Alpha instead... With darkness, snow on the ground and a displaced threshold... I'm not saying it wasn't a major screw up, it obviously was, but I think that I'll try to hold in the schadenfreude a bit until I retire and haven't done something stupid myself!

It's by the way disheartening to read the above opinions about KLM pilots. Although I'm not Dutch myself, I enjoy working there immensely and have a lot of respect for the vast majority of my colleagues. A lot of people think that the Dutch are inherently arrogant, and a lot of people think that pilots are inherently arrogant, so it sort of makes sense, but realize that a lot of what you hear when they are speaking English is their accent. Their direct manner of speaking and clipped vowels makes it sound harsh, but often the message they are trying bring across is not.

[RubyVroom]

Eham 101925z 03015kt 350v050 9999 Few012 Sct016 Bkn040 M01/m03 Q1014 R06/////95 Tempo 6000 -sn

[neroliie]

Somewhat OT, on the Dutch: in my experience the 'impression' given of arrogance is part real arrogance and part forthrightness. A Dutchman expressing himself in English can come across much harsher than if he were saying the same thing in Dutch. Just a cross-cultural thing, ime :ok:

[JW411]

I must confess that I am surprised by the way this thread is going. I have trained and have flown with a fair few Dutch pilots and I have found them to be very pleasant, good fun and pretty sharp too.

I just don't recognise some of the stereotypes being pushed around by others.

Mind you, in fairness, none of my lot had ever been near KLM.

[wingview]

They might have noticed it (too late) that they were on the taxiway but was it safer to continue (due to snow, smaller strip etc).

To the KLM/Dutch bashers: Who is telling you it was a (all) Dutch cockpit? Not only Dutch are flying for KLM...:ouch: (big chance it was, but that we'll find out when the report is published). Who ever they might be, it should'nt have happend.

[ray cosmic]

Wasn't this being picked up by Surface Movement Radar? Or better said:
At SPL they use SMR, when is it being used and does it provide warnings in situations like this?
And does KLM often do intersection takeoff on the 737?
On bigger aircraft you're used to crosscheck the numbers since you're anyway mostly taking full length. If you often use intersections, this technique might slowly slip out.

And re: KLM crew: they are just as professional as most of us I think; bad apples in any company.

[CaptainX]

I have trained and examined many KLM pilots over the last seven years, since AirUK became part of KLM Cityhopper. The vast majority are capable, hard-working and very proud of their company. However, as they are usually the first to admit, their direct approach to life in general and aviation in particular can be interpreted as arrogance.

The most irritating trait to me as a Brit is the attitude that KLM invented commercial aviation. Could BA not be accused of the same attitude though? Let he who is without sin...

[Rockhound]

Haughtney,
That's not very funny :=
Rockhound

Have just realised that others beat me to it in castigating Haughtney1 for his tasteless remark. The tastelessness has absolutely nothing to do with nationality.
Rockhound

[Darth Helmet]

28L and 28R are easily mixed up , often see the tire marks in the grass where pilots have got it wrong.

[Doors to Automatic]

I don't know where this notion of Dutch people being arrogant comes from? I have met many in my time and have found them all to be courteous and pleasant people.

Give me a Dutch city (e.g. Maastrict) on a Summer Saturday night over any UK city complete with its fighting yobs and paraletic women!

[Tipsy Barossa]

There are always nice Dutch people around and there are always the :mad: :mad: amongst them. I am half Dutch and the attitude of some of my relatives get on my nerves all the time. In a suburb in AKL where an aunt lives, the Dutch community wants everything their way ( because of Tasman? ), edam, clogs, mini windmills at the Sunday market but when someone suggested putting a Chinese arch as part of a scheme setting up a small Chinatown ( a big Chinese population there ) there were deafening protests from mostly Kiwis of Dutch extract who opine that that will be the end of the Dutch world! Really xenophobic!

Coming back to this KLM B737 incident, night time departures and tendency to rush could have contributed to it. Fatigue could be a factor but I guess KLM pilot schedules are fairly relaxed compared to those of Easy and Ryan.

[DC-ATE]

On a lighter note: if Delta can land on a taxiway, why can't KLM take off on one? :bored:

[Avman]

Give me a Dutch city (e.g. Maastrict) on a Summer Saturday night over any UK city complete with its fighting yobs and paraletic women!

DTA, you obviously haven't been to the 'wrong' places in some of the larger Dutch cities.

Maastricht is indeed a wonderful city, but it is in Limburg - which, as far as Limburgers are concerned, is a different country and another way of life altogether. Even they, by the way, also regard the "northerners" as rude and arrogant.

[silverware]

I don't think screwing up your take off by using a taxiway iso 36C is a particular Dutch thing to do....
What really worries me is the fact that TWO people on the flightdeck missed all relevant markings and runway lights and where able to take off with clearance/ without any intervention from the tower.
Having worked for KLM as an f/a for over 12 years i always felt that the people upfront took there job pretty serious so it really came as a surprise.

[Blue heaven]

Do not ATC have some shared responsibility in this incident? What do they mean when they say "cleared for take off"?

[captplaystation]

In Ryanair I always had the impression ( & I for sure wasn't the only one ) that many of our "new" Dutch F/O's came across as smart-asses.

I am however , quite prepared to accept that a large part of that could be me being an old fart, and that the equivalent F/O from Eire / UK / Spain/ wherever, could be just as bad, but was merely perhaps just a bit more "tactful" about it.
I believe at least a part of the difference is in the way you cloggies are so direct, it gives the impression " I really know what I am saying here, and it's right".
Indeed , in your own language , you "may" be capable of coming across as humble, in English ? . . . that is more problematical.
A bit like Dutch ATC, they communicate (never mind if they have to correct you :eek: ) in a way that makes you feel belittled, they may indeed merely be trying to be helpful, but the way they tell you gives exactly the opposite impression.
For me, you guys have two big problems in English, 1 - because you speak it pretty well, you think you speak it like a native, so you speak too quickly, even for a native speaker, so HE ends up like a dummy saying Huh ?
2 - you speak it too assertively, perhaps as you speak your native language, and you end up coming across as arrogant pr1cks, when in fact probably you are not.
I dunno, the Flemish speaking Belgians don't like you so much, what's their complaint ? ? maybe something along the same lines ? or maybe you are just arrogant ? :cool: Well, there are probably worse national attributes to be landed with :oh:
Ah, nothing like a bit of intra-european dialogue to start the weekend.


Anyway, to get back in the direction of the thread, bugger all to do with nationality or airport, we are all more than capable of cocking up supremely well at any airport regardless of the country of airport or nationality of driver.
No accident, no casualties, hopefully a lesson to be learned for all, sh1t happens ! :oh:

[BarbiesBoyfriend]

Playstation.

Well said.

As Michael Caine said in 'Goldfinger',

"There's only two things I can't stand: People who are intolerant of other peoples cultures, and the Dutch"

:eek:

[Smoketrails]

Funny thing is, 'us Limburgers' think the Maastrichtenaar is arrogant and very chauvinistic:eek:

[captplaystation]

If I was from Maastricht I would probably keep quiet, most Europeans (whatever they are ? :confused: ) don't know if it is in . . . . The Netherlands / Belgium / Luxembourg / Or is it just another EU accepted tax fiddle ( Andorra/Monaco/ Lichenstein/ Luxembourg - AGAIN)
I am told it is a rather lovely city, possibly not the place to spend the weekend as a testosterene surcharged 18 yr old, and no doubt all the better for it :ok:

[Doors to Automatic]

Given that the weather was "all the 9s" (assume the observation posted by RubyVroom was from around the time of the incident) - how is it possible to mistake a strip with bright yellow lights (with red entry signs 36C-18C) for one with blue/green lights?

Even if the crew were tired this is worrying. Can anyone shed any light? (apologies for the awful pun!)

[captplaystation]

I agree with you completely, but you know, sometimes at that time of night , you don't give a sh!t and you "could" forget what are the "good" colours and happily launch off enjoying the fact the way was illuminated.

Not so long ago , I lined up on a runway with "No" lights.

My colleague said nothing, well our landing lights were great ( thanks "Mr Boeing", sorry for Turkish reticence) I asked," could you put the lights on please", and the picture was indeed better, but, had I been a little bit more tired ? , it was about midnight, so lets say 0200 ? I don't entirely discount the possibility that I might " just" have performed the take -off with a vague appreciation that" sumfin ain't right" but might have gone none the less.
Even as I queried what I saw, I queried myself. . . we become really transfixed with justifying ourselves nowadays it becomes, actually, quite scary. Our previously unquestioned/ totally justified "command authority" is slowly and subversively , being diluted by so much politically correct totally
irrelevant, crap. THIS IS A BIG PROBLEM, particularly for companies like Ryanair, where these guys are so used to having no authority/deferring to "the boss/i.e the company" for every decision. There is no actual day to day pressure, in fact any decisions you make, are never questioned, the danger arises from the subtle mindset, that the less worldy (i.e. never worked elsewhere ) bods adopt, and take with them to command. Subtle, but really dangerously stifling , really so .

These guys have been castrated before getting the 4 bars, the price for this is & will become more apparent as time goes on.
Wet, limiting tailwind, not so long, possibly slippery when wet R/W , Flap 30 A/B 2 on a B738 anyone ? Why the hell would you as a LTC do this ? indoctrination I would suggest. If not ? well your judgement is shot to hell anyway & you were wrongly promoted.
Me, I blame the system, and I believe that the "rewards" will be reaped in due course
Not at all "pay peanuts get monkey".
Much worse "encourage & reward by promotion compliance, stifle & hinder individual contribution through observation & suggestion, by disregarding & failing to acknowledge"

[rottenray]

DCAte writes:

On a lighter note: if Delta can land on a taxiway, why can't KLM take off on one? http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wbored.gif
I think you've provided the much needed chuckle this thread needed.

Once all the furor over the actual mistake subsides, we need to think about what economically feasible steps can be taken to keep pilots from landing and taking off from taxiways.

Obviously, a lot can be said about this being a "less than best" situation.

Yard-sale type signs saying "do not take off from this strip of pavement" or something similar..?

Joking a bit with that, but maybe ground signs could improve a bit.


I'm going to posit this thought.

Most of the infrastructure was designed in the lush days before US deregulation and the cropping-up of low-cost carrier operations world-wide, and everything is much more demanding than the "golden days".

Air transit doesn't have that special panache it once did, and I'm sure this is evident to the pilots.

(Anyone even casually involved with commercial air travel is experiencing a severe loss of respect. Southwest, once considered the absolute cattle-car experience, has been racking up favorable customer survey comments, and they haven't changed their business model.)

As an aside, I'm sure it was a rectum-tightening experience in this case, as I'm sure the deck crew realized what was happening shortly after it started to happen.

They DID successfully complete a takeoff, prolly from a surface which isn't as smooth and groomed as a runway. I have no idea what a rougher surface can imply when taking off.

Therefore, one can't assume the PF and the PNF to be completely inept.

So, what can be done?

In this incident, I don't think the A vs. B or any model argument applies. It's a case of workload and infrastructure, and it would be very bad indeed to throw the baby out with the bathwater...


So, put your dreamy hats on and start writing - maybe there will be a few good ideas, and maybe someone can take that upstream a bit.


RR

[onetrack]

This episode is one that needs very close examination to see where the error occurred - and the authorities are treating it with the gravity required. No-one should need reminding, that it would have only needed ONE other aircraft to turn into the taxiway, at the wrong moment, for us to be reading about another major KLM disaster today. I'm with blue heaven, what were ATC doing? - besides adopting a less-than-professional attitude to aircraft control and movement??

[On the beach]

One of the accident experiences that I've been unfortunate enough to be involved in was attributed to an F/O going sick and being replaced at short notice by another Captain. The resultant accident occurred with them both concentrating on the instrument panel and no-one looking out the cockpit window. This had nothing to do with taking off from a taxiway but could offer a possible explanation.

And just to be even handed, I as an ex-ATC would never clear an aircraft for take-off that I hadn't checked either visually or by radar was entering or on the correct runway. So as it was dark, was the SMR working?

There is generally no single explanation for why these things happen but I'm inclined to think there are probably a few holes that have lined up in that Edam. Time for everyone to examine their culture and procedures and take the necessary measures to prevent a re-occurrence.

On the beach

[BusyB]

I was recently taxiing to 36L from the cargo area and when querying confusing taxi instructions was given a very curt, condescending response.
In my experience some ATC tends to be pushy rather than slick.:bored:

[Green-dot]

Perhaps that 'spiderweb' of taxiway junctions just accross the bridge over the highway, near the entry to runway 36C may have been a factor in the confusion?

Maybe they should redesign it as a roundabout . . . .

[ManaAdaSystem]

Part of the problem in AMS is the ATC habit of never giving full taxi instructions, they simply tell you to taxi RWY XX and expect you to know your way. Coming across the bridge at Q I still really don't know if I'm supposed to use A or B to W5 (for 36L) or coming from 18R across W5, which taxiway to use towards Q.
I just ask (and was told to do whatever I wanted) or use clockwise on A, counter clockwise on B. That is what is expected in the terminal area, but it is poorly indicated in the RWY 36C/18C area.

If they were coming south towards 36C, shouldn't they be on TWY B anyway?

This could only happen to KLM as all other airlines seem to be forced to use 36L...

[Spitoon]

Do not ATC have some shared responsibility in this incident? What do they mean when they say "cleared for take off"?
Well, technically the answer is that there is nothing on the runway.

But ATC, or some of the systems that are available on the ground these days, could have some way of preventing such an incident - but none are 100% reliable. As with all incidents, there are will be a whole range of factors which contributed here and we will have to wait and see what conclusions are drawn by the investigators (who have access to all the information).

[captplaystation]

If their comments about the Turkish accident are a guide, will they be trying to pin this one on Boeing too ? :hmm:

[Wizofoz]

Playstation.

Well said.

As Michael Caine said in 'Goldfinger',

"There's only two things I can't stand: People who are intolerant of other peoples cultures, and the Dutch"


...Errr...Actually it was "GoldMEMBER"...

[BOAC]

This sounds like a case of all the holes in the 'Dutch Cheese' lining up (yes, I know - 'on the taxyway......':))

[MathFox]

This could only happen to KLM as all other airlines seem to be forced to use 36L...
It might certainly seem that way to the Brits and Americans: Rules are that westbound departures get 36L, eastbound 36C when both runways are in use for departures. Lufthansa is even luckier than KLM in this respect.

If their comments about the Turkish accident are a guide, will they be trying to pin this one on Boeing too ?
I guess they might need help to find an argument to do so.... :E Maybe Schiphol Airport can get part of the blame because of snow-covered signs, but that's about all I can imagine. (And unclear/improper ATC instructions.)

[aviator17]

Yesterday's taxi instruction was "taxi to 36L, cross 36C via W5..."

[BarbiesBoyfriend]

wizofoz

Thanksh. I shtand corrected.:ooh:

[acbus1]

KLM 737 takes off from taxiway at EHAM

Ah! So that's a Dutch roll.

Often wondered.

[marsipulami]

"Quote"
Yesterday's taxi instruction was "taxi to 36L, cross 36C via W5..."

Study the EHAM charts and let me know how many options you will find. It's all about preparation and certainly not rushing.

Could there be an easier instruction for such a long taxi?

[aviator17]

"taxi via B, W 6, back track 18C, W 5... or
"taxi via B, C, Y, V...

[Stop Stop Stop]

After Quebec the official way is via Taxiway A Northbound. It usually isn't critical and you will often find that local crews will ask for Bravo because it is a smoother surface than Alpha.

You will find that when it IS critical (usually when landing on 36C) ATC will, when giving a clearance to cross Quebec, re-iterate that the aircraft must route via Alpha with the statement "After Quebec, route Alpha." All aircraft taxiing in will be via Bravo and told to "Hold abeam A26" to ensure that no-one goes head to head on Quebec, which is the only bottleneck at Schiphol.

It is a great shame this happened. It is a bit confusing in this area, made even more so when the airport realigned the runway entrances a couple of years ago. Yes, we all know that the Dutch are an arrogant race ("If you're not Dutch, you're not much" is a popular statement within KLM) but this could have happened to anyone. But really it shouldn't happen at your home base and I am sure that is what the investigation will focus on- how did crew co-ordination break down to such an extent that this happened. Possibly, they were being cool and blase about the departure, but I suspect they won't be making that mistake again in a hurry!

ATC have to shoulder some of the blame here as well- I have been to the SPL tower on several occasions and it is absolutely state of the art up there, with displays of GMR etc. in front of the controller. I think he or she will be involved in the de-brief!

[Razoray]

Oh give me a break. And like you Brits aren't arrogant???:=
:=

[Mr Optimistic]

'...And like you Brits aren't arrogant??' I think maybe we just resent anyone who speaks better English than we do, such as the Dutch. Never a problem with the US though.

[68+iou1]

I remember training an eager young Dutch pilot. After correcting and explaining why what he was doing was dangerous. He said, “Yes. But at the KLM flight academy we did it this way. So you must be wrong!”
I did enjoyed training/working with most of the Dutch pilots I came across!

[safewing]

In AMS I believe that around the terminals there are dual laned taxiways except for Q which is the south bridge.

As a simple rule try driving on the right {continental driving} on the taxiways and you can't go wrong. This applies clockwise anticlockwise taxi after landing taxi before departure.

It is as simple as that......unless it is modified by ATC.

My only real bad experience with ATC was being told that I was number 1 to start but there would be a delay for snow clearance on the runway by the snowdesk controller and when it reopened and I changed to startup controller I was told I was number 157 to start.

All the sky blue aircraft got airborne first that night..........and that is wrong.

[marsipulami]

There are KLM pilots / KLM Flight Academy pilots and other pilots, not to mention there are rotten apples everywere but this is how it is.

[737 Speedbrakes]

safewing

As a simple rule try driving on the right {continental driving} on the taxiways and you can't go wrong. This applies clockwise anticlockwise taxi after landing taxi before departure.

I understand the first part, but please can someone explain the "This applies clockwise anticlockwise taxi after landing taxi before departure"

Thanks

737 - S

[flyburg]

I think what he meant was: it applies whether you are taxiing clockwise or anti clockwise either after landing or before departure.

[Blue heaven]

Well, technically the answer is that there is nothing on the runway.

That would seem to infer that they actually looked at the runway? So then, why was it not oserved that they were in fact not on the said runway? I think we may know why!!

[Sobelena]

From where the tower is, I'm not too sure that with eyeball only it would be possible on a dark night to notice the subtle difference between an a/c on 36C or the parallel taxiway. But why didn't they use the available ground radar? Or was it OFF for maintenance?!

[The Snake]

In my opinion taxi instructions at AMS are very clear. Unnecessary information is not issued.....Keep It Stupid Simple. :ok:

When asking for taxi. ATC replies with:

"Taxi RWY 24"

Avoids R/T congestion. Enjoy the silence.

[keepin it in trim]

In the company I work for I have many Dutch colleagues, in general I find them an absolute pleasure to work with, very professional, and they usually speak better English than I do, and I am supposedly a native speaker.

Please keep in mind that when someone is not speaking their native tongue, it is easy for their natural pronunciation or tone to make them sound harsh when that is not intended.

As to this incident, it sounds like a classic HF incident where a number of systemic problems were just waiting for the opportunity to trip someone up. Thankfully we should get a "free" lesson this time, as the biggest casualty should be bruised egos

[Stop Stop Stop]

All the sky blue aircraft got airborne first that night..........and that is wrong

Well I find this very hard to believe. In 13 years of working out of Schiphol (and driving one of those sky blue aircraft) I have never once seen any favouritism dished out by ATC when it comes to start sequences etc. Maybe it looks it because there are so many KLM aircraft all calling for start at the same time (we have a seven wave system- inbound and outbound peaks according to the time of the day).

Now Brussels Airport was a different matter when Sabena were in existance- they had their own taxiways to overtake all the visitors!

But we use the Polderbaan (36L/18R) as much as anyone- as someone said, it depends on where you are going. Polderbaan for westerly departures, Zwanenburgbaan (36C/18C) for the easterlies. Alternatively, it is 24 (Kaagbaan) for westerlies or 18R (Aalsmeerbaan) for easterlies and occasional alternative combinations depending on the wind or current noise complaints from the neighbours.

[Blythy]

Solution? Photos: Boeing 727-2S7/Adv Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Champion-Air/Boeing-727-2S7-Adv/1034836/L/)

[Me Myself]

and they usually speak better English than I do, and I am supposedly a native speaker.


You must be from Yorkshire then.

[bereboot]

At AMS taxiing on the outer tracks ( B) should be done anti-clockwise
Taxiing inner tracks ( A) should be done clockwise
All this regardless departing or arriving
Correct me if i'm wrong

[DERG]

"In the company I work for I have many Dutch colleagues, in general I find them an absolute pleasure to work with, very professional, and they usually speak better English than I do, and I am supposedly a native speaker."

I agree. How can ya make sweeping generalis(z)ations about people just because they come from a place within a political boundary?

It is certainly true that people from places share a common culture...the Swiss can be aloof...the Germans can be pedantic...the Austrians can be warm hearted....the French are the French..etc etc

Some of the comments made on here belong in a kindergarten!

Cut the prejudice please!

[safewing]

All the sky blue aircraft got airborne first that night..........and that is wrong

Well I was there and that is what I heard on the R/T... all 3 1/2 hours of it. My post flight report feedback indicated that something similar had happened the year before in snow. Not that we can do much about it.

I have also heard a colleague of mine state that a request for 18C was met with "negative wrong coloured tail." Why feel the need to put such a negative connotation on a reply?

English in aviation is to be used as a tool not a some callow means to score points. Flightcrew have a right to request a particular runway. A simple "negative unable 18C" still gets the message across.

While I do appreciate the logistics of the operation into EHAM for some airlines operating on to the runway at Haarlem has significant impact on their schedule, and everything that stems from that. And before this gets off track I am aware that KLM operate on to the runway as well so there is no favouritism in that regard. But in percentage terms some airlines regardless of whether it is Southerly operation or Northerly operation operate 90+% 18R/36L either for landing and takeoff.

[safewing]

At AMS taxiing on the outer tracks ( B) should be done anti-clockwise
Taxiing inner tracks ( A) should be done clockwise
All this regardless departing or arriving
Correct me if i'm wrong

So to summarise if you drive on the right................

[captplaystation]

Safewing, I don't doubt what you say, and I have seen similar things happen in other countries with other carriers.
Very often what happens is that the operations dept has a back door into the start up coordinator , or knows some little trick, that gets his bundle of aircraft in ahead of everyone elses.
Fair? no , Frustrating ? yes, but if they keep whatever the little "secret" is to themselves what to do.

Best solution is to do what one of my ex colleagues in BM was reputed to do when their was big delays @ LHR.
Somewhere in the Bovingdon hold his dulcet tones could be heard asking to be put in the start sequence for his next flight.
Well, his doors WERE closed ,as they often asked :rolleyes:

[Piltdown Man]

"negative wrong coloured tail."

This is called humour. It implies that you weren't getting your preferred runway for nationalistic reasons rather than the real one which was your routing. I think that's amusing. And what a boring life we would have without humour, even when flying. But the reality is, if on departure you turn left, amazingly you get 36L. Turn right you get 36C. And I can assure you, the locals don't get any special treatment, cos I is one! And here's the rub. If you are travelling to/from the UK, you'll probably get the wretched Polderbaan. If you are really unlucky, you get it for both arrivals and departures.

As for de-icing, well that is truly smoke and mirrors. This year has worked better than last but one's place in the queue appears to be a more closely guarded secret than a masonic lodge membership list. Even if you fly Blue.

And I can't possibly see how it's ATC's "fault" when an aircraft departs from a taxiway when LVP's are not in force. Many times I have been cleared well before a runway with something like "...via Whisky 8, Line up, cleared take off. Toodle loo." And why not.

But the interesting bit will be when we find out what happened for these guys to believe to they were on a runway. They are the only ones with the information which will allow the full story to be put together.

PM

[ManaAdaSystem]

Funny, three days ago I turned to the right after departure.
Runway? 36L.

[His dudeness]

This is called humour. It implies that you weren't getting your preferred runway for nationalistic reasons rather than the real one which was your routing. I think that's amusing.

Yeah and particularly guys from Monty Pythons land should be able to decode that. But, to stay with the generalisations of this thread, the british are only good on humour that costs the other part...

Now, for something completely different....ATC at Schipol and the Nehterlands generally - and me beeing german hate to say that (the Dutch block my Autobahn with their Caravans- uuuuggh) - is probably the best in the world, at least the best I have experienced. Usually quick, efficient, helpful and with a tad of humour.

[slings]

The departure runway you'll get can be heard on amsterdam info. 131,350 (ATC operational information).

No difference is made by tail color.

It depends on the SID you get combined with runway's use.
Off course sometimes you get 36L with a right turn, simply because 36C is not in use for departures.

For flights in the direction of northern europe with 36L and 36C in use you can normally expect 36L because the total traffic flow to the east and south is greater then the flow to the west. In these cases a right turn from 36L is possible but pretty far north (SPY1V at 11AMS right).

Normally in outbound peaks (evening peak) queue's for east and south departures are common. this is why departures to the north and north east are also from the 36L.

Departure runway is never negotiable. It simply depends on SID/ runway's in use.

Upon arrival when traffic flow allows ATC sometimes deviates from the 131.35 arrival/rwy combinations.

And de-icing procedures? the queue is made according reporting ready on snowdesk. Sometimes aircraft with a slot get prio.
Sometimes connection critical blue flights (hub-hub) get priority but ONLY over other blue tails. NOT over foreign airlines!
People who may have been at EHAM during the past snow periods must have heard these things on snowdesk.

[flyburg]

@ ManaAdaSystem

Funny, three days ago I turned to the right after departure.
Runway? 36L.

Yes, when AMS is back to single runway ops ( for departure) they don't stop Eastbound traffic :rolleyes:

[PENKO]

Don't worry guys, pilots always explain away things they are to lazy to find out for themselves. I stopped worrying about it and now I just smile when a colleague goes on and on about being allocated 18R/36L coming and going WEST.

And as stated earlier by others, how can some of you blame ATC at this stage, the TO clearance might have been given at a far earlier stage than lining up.

[Piltdown Man]

Flyberg, you beat me to it!

PM

[bereboot]

At AMS taxiing on the outer tracks ( B) should be done anti-clockwise
Taxiing inner tracks ( A) should be done clockwise
All this regardless departing or arriving
Correct me if i'm wrong

So to summarise if you drive on the right................


Correct , why did I use so much words............;)

[Rananim]

When you line up,you really need to be focused on:
-approach clear
-runway clear
-final silent check of config
-right runway
-quick self-review of actions for RTO/engine failure @ V1

NOT
SOP's and checklists.
I believe some companies have their pilots performing checklists and all kinds of last minute items as they line up.Pilots might get focused on these items at the expense of the big picture.We were too busy selecting TA/RA,switching center pumps off,advising cabin and reading checklist to notice it was the wrong runway.Problem starts when the before takeoff checklist has "line-up" items like transponder or even takeoff clearance-received etc.The poor pilot,desperate not to contravene the SOP's and think for himself/herself,wont read the checklist PRIOR to line-up because the book says dont start a checklist until you can action all the items.
Would be interested to know if KLM completes the checklist before line-up or not?Is there a "below the line" still?Line-up should be quiet and unhurried,no talking just calm reflection and attention.

[Right Engine]

The Dutch have the best sense of humour in Europe (apart from us Brits).

"Arrogance" is usually the accusation made by those who are the victims of a sharp wit!

If a pilot accuses a large body of their colleagues as arrogant (in this case by grouping them conveniently into a national group), it is worth asking "Why are so many of my workmates coming across to me as insensitively assertive?"
;)

[cats_five]

When you line up,you really need to be focused on:
-approach clear
-runway clear
-final silent check of config
-right runway
-quick self-review of actions for RTO/engine failure @ V1

NOT
SOP's and checklists.
<snip>

Looks to me like you've given us a (short) checklist that refers to two other checklists...

[Avman]

"Arrogance" is usually the accusation made by those who are the victims of a sharp wit!

If a pilot accuses a large body of their colleagues as arrogant (in this case by grouping them conveniently into a national group), it is worth asking "Why are so many of my workmates coming across to me as insensitively assertive?"

I don't fully agree with you Right Engine. I have worked with them for 40 years. Some of them are my best friends. I love the Dutch. But they are arrogant bastards! ;)

[Piltdown Man]

Would be interested to know if KLM completes the checklist before line-up or not?

Simple answer. Virtually every KLM fleet (or division as they are known internally) follows the manufacturer's procedures and checklists. KLM's 737 fleet is one of these fleets. So unless Mr. Boeing's checklist is plainly wrong, they'll stick with it until amended.

PM

[PENKO]

Funny, I thought that KLM was one of those airlines using their own checklists and procedures. On all their AC except the A330. Their checklists are also read-and-do if I am not mistaken. Happy to be corrected...

[slings]

Since some time now KLM fleet is operated according manufacturers books and checklists.

[Mikehotel152]

Our Dutch Instructors at CAE Amsterdam specifically referred to Dutch arrogance as a CRM issue which could cause problems in the cockpit. Mind you, at the same time the Brits got criticised for being too polite and longwinded... ;)

Not quite sure how that point fits in with a KLM crew mistaking a taxyway for a runway...

[Otterman]

It doesn't.

[Mikehotel152]

Indeed, and even if don't accept the validity of the anecdote you'll realise that was my point. :rolleyes:

[autofeather]

I feel for those guys at the front I am sure it was just a mistake that they thought was 'not posshible' for them to make.

I am sure that this is not the first time KLM crews have made a mistake on a runway, thankfully no one was hurt...

[Flying Torquewrench]

As long as human beings are involved in anything, mistakes will be made.

Instead of jumping down each others throat why can't we just try to learn from this incident?

The nationality of the crew has nothing to do with the incident. It's the outcome of the investigation which is important so that we can avoid these incidents.

[ACCP]

All this business about Dutch arrogance or attitude is complete and utter drivel. The same would be said about BA, Lufty or almost any other major airline.

As Piltdown Man said earlier one day we will find out what happened for these guys to believe they were on a runway. This will be a fascinating read.

What is so intriguing about this incident is that these guys had been flying for a number of years, like most of us. They had been regularly and successfully going through sim checks and line checks, and yet, they were able to make such a basic mistake. KLM does not employ idiots, whatever some may appear to think. And yet it did happen to them.

As far as I am concerned what is to be learned from this is that, potentially, anyone is capable of a major cock-up, especially if you think it could never happen to you.

[Good memories]

As far as I am concerned what is to be learned from this is that, potentially, anyone is capable of a major cock-up, especially if you think it could never happen to you.

:D

Very true indeed!


Good Flying!

John

[Northern_Driver]

If this would have happened to a smaller carrier the talking for example here in this forum would be quite different now. That is actually very serious incident.. Same people flying only companies and airplanes vary..:cool:

[aviator17]

yes...read rwy designator before rolling...easy...

[Nubboy]

"read rwy designator......."

never ever done an intersection departure.....
only ever gone to full length:ugh:

It's their home base ffs.

Never mind the how they did it. It's the WHY that's important.

Gross error check on heading on line up wouldn't have caught this one.

Beam bar centered (or not in this case) if the ils for 36c was radiating and selected might have.

The only certainty is that they didn't taxi out with the intention of screwing up. Just like every one of us.

[JW411]

I seem to remember that KLM's finest managed the world's biggest aviation disaster by taking off from an occupied runway at Teneriffe Norte?

[36050100]

Just realised that I operated from AMS in the same wave as this KLM 737 and that I operated from LUX on the same day as the Cargolux 747 hit a van on the runway in Jan.

If anyone wants to know my roster so they can arrange to be somewhere else, let me know...

I'm also quite prepared to stay at home for an appropriate consideration :)

[Flying Torquewrench]

I seem to remember that KLM's finest managed the world's biggest aviation disaster by taking off from an occupied runway at Teneriffe Norte?

And? What the relevance of that to this incident?

Either back up your statement or don't bother posting. :yuk:

[Henri737]

Keep in mind: it happend to them, so it can happen to you!

rgrds
Henri

[JW411]

Flying Torquewrench:

Sorry old son; it just had to be mentioned (for those of you who are only just starting your career).

It is very sadly a historical fact.

I will keep you very happy and not post again on this thread.

What do us old pharts know anyway?

[autofeather]

Flying Torquewrench: I think the point that JW411 is making is that KLM seem to have a history of this type of incident...

Mind you with the attitude that seems to be a feature of a KLM flightdeck, as discussed by many others on this thread, (and from my experience I am afraid I have to agree with the comments posted) they will continue to have such incidents until they learn better.

[JW411]

autofeather:

Thank you for that but I hardly think that 583 fatalities constitutes an "incident".

[The Snake]

Completely irrelevant to add Tenerife 1977 (looong time ago) to this thread.

Different generation, different culture nowadays. In every company, not only KLM.

[B767-383]

All crew at all airliners in the world make mistakes. The important thing is to learn from them. Lets hope that the authorities decide to learn from this incident instead of just punishing the crew (seems to be happening more and more).
Here are some other mistakes from other airliners;

SAS: Report: SAS B736 at Lulea on Feb 27th 2007, took off opposite runway (http://avherald.com/h?article=423bbb74&opt=0)

Pel Air: Report: Pel Air E120 at Sydney on Oct 13th 2007, aligned with edge- instead of centerline for takeoff (http://avherald.com/h?article=4164e5d0&opt=0)

Singapore Airlines: ASN Aircraft accident Boeing 747-412 9V-SPK Taipei-Chiang Kai Shek Airport (TPE) (http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20001031-0)

China Airlines: ASN Aircraft accident Airbus A340-313X B-18805 Anchorage International Airport, AK (ANC) (http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20020125-0)

Comair / Delta Connection: ASN Aircraft accident Canadair CRJ100ER (CL-600-2B19) N431CA Lexington-Blue Grass Airport, KY (LEX) (http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20060827-0)

Just shows it could happen to everybody:bored:......... lets use this as a wakeup call.

Safe flying everybody.

[Flying Torquewrench]

Tenerife is completely irrelevant to this incident.

TFN: Take off from runway WITHOUT t/o clearance. Fact!
AMS: Take off from taxiway WITH t/o clearance (albeit from runway and not taxiway). Fact!

Now tell me were are the similarities??? :ugh:

As others have said TFN happened 40 years ago and a lot has changed in the mean time. As for KLM pilots having a chip on the shoulder? Have a look through this website, read about different airlines. There is always a couple who claim that their airline is the best because it has the best pilots in the world!!. So give them a break.

Read the BA thread. Quote; " we have the best T's and C's and therefore have the best pilots in the industry". unquote. Just as an example and nothing towards BA but we all do it.

[68+iou1]

The facts are:
1. KLM is a world class airline!
2. The Dutch generally give the impression of over confidence!

And

1. Like any airline they strive to limit human error.
2. Checking the over confidence will help to limit human error.

[Worstebroodje]

It's amazing how this thread looks differently on different boards. On Dutch boards the general discussion is KLM sucks and the way they hire people sucks. Then once in a while somebody talks about the incident and two posts later they're talking about how much KLM sucks again.

On this board the Dutch suck and now and again you might read somebody's opinion or thoughts on the incident.

How difficult is it to remain on topic and not include opinions which don't have anything to do with this incident whatsoever?

[soullimbo]

I'm Dutch. I trained at Eelde. Not at the KLM school. These KLM trainees hardly ever acknowledged other trainees, didn't bother to greet and once they wore their uniform became outright arrogant. Not all, but certainly 9 out of 10.

About the incident. I can't understand this. Making such a failure at your base under good conditions. It's not rocket science to distinguish a taxiway from the runway. Unless they avoided a catastrophy, they should be fired. A captain at KLM flying 737 has more than 10 years experience flying from Schiphol.

The VNV's initial reaction is wrong. But they're just covering their colleauges a**es.

[autofeather]

Flying Torquewrench

Your were 50% Correct

Tenerife is very relevant as it’s the same airline (sadly this incident was a long time after and it seems lessons were not fully learnt by said airline).

TFN: Take off from runway WITHOUT t/o clearance. Fact!

AMS: Take off from taxiway WITHOUT t/o clearance , WITHOUT performance data etc

In both instances putting the aircraft, crew and its passengers, along with all other aircraft, crew and passengers that were moving under their own power at the time of the take off at risk– FACT

Thankfully the AMS take off was an incident and nothing more. Sadly that was by pure luck and not judgement of the crew concerned.

[Worstebroodje]

I'm Dutch. I trained at Eelde. Not at the KLM school. These KLM trainees hardly ever acknowledged other trainees, didn't bother to greet and once they wore their uniform became outright arrogant. Not all, but certainly 9 out of 10.Yeah great. You went to the grocery store in your uniform and they wouldn't say hi to you.

That must make you a better pilot.

[ray cosmic]

Worstebroodje, maybe it's better you go back to Airwork and get pissed upon over there. Here you're not really helping the cause, mate -with statements like that!

[Steve Michell]

Arrogance has nothing, I repeat nothing, to do with a crew using a taxiway for Take off.

Was is relevant is authority gradient (i.e. Tenerife), cockpit procedures, ATC and downright leadership of the Captain.

ATC Amsterdam airport has created a qualifying airport for some carriers. Not taxiway layout, but loose and weird ATC procedures and annoying reprimand of (mostly) foreign Captains. Not forgetting the dozen or so aerodrome procedural pages it has created (ridiculous for an airport without obstacles and/or extreme air-traffic volumes).
Cockpit procedures are Boeing. The question is wether cockpit procedures were adhered to.
Leadership on the flight deck. Now, arrogant or not, former civilan flight school trained pilots lack a broad view of aviation, but were taught KLM culture and procedures from the start. KLM culture always has been: as long as the calls and procedures were performed correctly everything is OK, no matter what the outcome of the flight. You can see a disaster in the making. No blame to narrowly trained so-called professional KLM pilots, it's beyond their scope of what aviation is. It's the system stupid! That creates this kind of pilots. They have heard day-in-day-out during their initial flight training that they are the best of the crop, the best pilots in the world, aces, no less. That is where their arrogance comes from. And it is this attitude and the underlying training that is absolutely relevant in this near-disaster. Go figure two self-proclaimed aces on any flight deck with a lack of self criticism..... That is where leadership comes in.

Then one remark about on fatigue. KLM pilots have the best contract in the world. Netherlands taxes are so high that almost no self respecting KLM pilot is working a normal 100% contract because most earned euro's are so heavily taxed that a full job hardly worthwhile. So they take a parttime contract option of 50-80% making the suggestion of fatigue ridiculous.

Let's wait and see what the Netherlands District Attorney will raise to prosecute the pilot(s). Investigation by a objective truth finding board is not possible under Dutch Law. Thanks to too little effort of Netherlands pilot union VNV to change this.

SM

[seat 0A]

Well Steve, a lot of bold statements about KLM pilots. I suppose you know them all intimately? Moreover your statements about KLM safety culture and procedures are not at all accurate.

KLM pilots have the best contract in the world.
Thanks to all the hard work of VNV.

Thanks to too little effort of Netherlands pilot union VNV to change this.
You must have missed al the efforts that are put in the Transavia tailstrike incident then. All the way to the High Court. Perhaps you also missed VNV`s efforts within ECA and IFALPA on the issue of CLOP (criminal liability of pilots)?

You are sadly misinformed.

[Steve Michell]

The only thing I am going to state about Dutch ALPA is that yes, KLM pilots have the best contract of the world, bravo! and yes, all effort of Dutch ALPA has been fruitless in that there's still nothing that precludes a race for cockpit and voice data between the so called independent safety board and the DA office. Usually DA wins that (legal) race.

Cheers,
SM

[Otterman]

What a nonsensical discussion based on conjecture and speculation. No one on this forum knows any details beyond the fact that it happened.

All the people who have a chip on their shoulder because for some reason they got snubbed by KLM and will grab anything to bash away, please be honest in this. For some reason everyone thinks all KLM pilots come from a single source. This is absolutely not the case. Especially in the captain group there are substantial numbers of “free” market pilots, literally from all corners of the world (how many European flag carriers can say this? Or in the case of KLM former flag carrier).

Tenerife has NOTHING to do with ANYTHING in this incident. Referring to it shows an astounding degree of ignorance. KLM’s culture went through a major change after this great tragedy. Of the handful of pilots left from those days all were new hires at that time.

Let’s give the investigation a chance, and then we can pick this discussion up again.

All this negativity is so counterproductive for the individuals concerned, and comes across as worthy of pity.

Within KLM this is being taken as seriously as is possible.

[oboema]

Steve apparently has some axe to grind with KLM...

unfortunately he is not well informed at all...

bad experiences in the past? Didnt make it through the selection? wanna talk about it?
:}

now back on topic
:8

[ray cosmic]

Funny how it always turns out that when you criticize KLM, you are right away being marked as a disgruntled KLM-wannabee. How's that for arrogance?
Furthermore, Otterman, with your statement you just confirmed you have no idea what is going on around you outside of Holland.
Up to this day, Dutch are being hired all over the world, whereas KLM didn't return the favor to foreigners since many years now. Except perhaps the odd few.
how many European flag carriers can say this? Or in the case of KLM former flag carrier
How about British Airways, Air France, Lufthansa, Swissair/Crossair, Luxair to name a few? :ugh:
Keep it real guys.

[contractor25]

CVR is not really required, AMS records all radar activity.

What they say isn't too relevant either, snow or not, the taxiway is just a tiny bit narrower than the runway.

You still get binned at KL if you wear white socks during interview???

[seat 0A]

I sure hope so! :E

[Steve Michell]

Ray,

Thanks for backing me up there. For some reason everybody involved with KLM is overreacting every single time you think of posting even the mlldest of criticism. Is it because they know it's true?
Clearly this Otterman fellow has absolutely no idea what is going on in aviation. Furthermore those few 'free market' pilots certainly have had a really hard career working with so much ignorance in the left seat when they were hired. Thinking that a pilot that joins KLM with 150 real flight hours has the same standard, let alone better, than a 'free market' pilot with 6.000 is rubbish of course. But, for the record, the word according former civil flight school blokes, still is that KLM flight ops went down hill after KLM allowed those so called free market pilots in. Who said there's no arrogance there?

What this has to do with taking off from a taxiway?
Well, just about everything. As I posted above. OVERCONFIDENCE KILLS!

What I really would like to know what other foreign pilots think of Amsterdam airport. It wouldn't surprise me if all those superfluous and unnecessary procedures that AMS ATC comes up with contributed to this accident. What about the long list of NOTAMS for the airport? And the subtile changes in the printed material in 'aerodrome information'?

But in the end it's still the skipper that bears the burden of not taking off without a clearance. For those who say this has nothing to do with Tenerife: you are all wrong. This has everything to do with Tenerife as far as taking off without a clearance. This crew only had a clearance to take off from 36C, not from any other surface on the airport. Period.
Maybe technical, and far too early to state there was too large a authority gradient on the flight deck like 'Tenerife', but the lack of clearance is essential.

Cheers,
SM

[StuntPilot]

Complete nonsense. That way you can call almost anything a clearance violation rendering the term meaningless (mid air collision = clearance violation, flights not cleared to collide...)

They probably were cleared for 36C that is NOT the essential point here.

The point is that they have MISTAKEN the taxiway for the runway and the interesting question is why?

I don't think they were expecting clearance to take off from the taxiway!

[PLovett]

Tenerife is completely irrelevant to this incident.

TFN: Take off from runway WITHOUT t/o clearance. Fact!
AMS: Take off from taxiway WITH t/o clearance (albeit from runway and not taxiway). Fact!

Now tell me were are the similarities???

A lack of situational awareness for starters. :=

[Steve Michell]

PLovett,

Good observation!

SM

[StuntPilot]

*A lack of situational awareness*

True, but that's again one of these 'cover-it-all' categories.
Any incident with a non-evil pilot in a serviceable plane is in a sense due to a lack of situational awareness since any non-evil pilot would avoid the incident if he would be aware of the situation that is unfolding.
'Cover-it-all' categories do not relate things.

It is fascinating that people are apparently unable to consider this incident without an enormous amount of cultural, national and other generally subjective clutter.

[autofeather]

People cannot 'consider this incident without an enormous amount of cultural, national or other generally subjective clutter' because that could well be the cause of the problem and therefore should be openly discussed.

Lets see what comes back from the inquiry.

[Surferboy]

What I really would like to know what other foreign pilots think of Amsterdam airport. It wouldn't surprise me if all those superfluous and unnecessary procedures that AMS ATC comes up with contributed to this accident.

Care to elaborate on the procedures you think are unnecessary? :hmm:


(Interesting to see btw that Steve M. never fails to respond to an opportunity to bash KLM.....see his other posts.)

[Teddy Robinson]

Removing the airline names from this incident for sake of clarity.

An aircraft landed on a taxiway at LGW some years ago, another took off on a runway covered in construction equipment, another, the worst single accident in aviation history and a core subject for discussion in CRM courses, took off without a clearance in fog.

Our collective aim as professional pilots has to be to learn from these, and a myriad of subtle incidents that occur every day of our working lives, and when we analyze them take them through to the worst case scenario.
That is the business we are in, risk assessment and risk management.

Every airport is different, AMS has it's quirks despite it's size, as does ZRH .. CDG, etc..
Fact is once in a while something like this incident comes along and refocuses minds which is no bad thing.

The question I always ask is ... could that have been me ?
and if not why not ?

[contractor25]

As a matter of interest, does anyone actually know the nationality of the flightcrew involved or is it assummed they're both Dutch because they fly a blueish Boeing?

[Q-nimbus]

Don't know about the F/O, but the Captain is Dutch.

[Pander216]

Yes, some (especially old-school) KLM pilots are arogant, but so are some Lufthansa or BA crews when I kindly greet them in the hotel or at their home airport. And I don't see you guys waving as much to spotters as we do ;)

At lot has changed within KLM since freemarketeers joined (especially within KLC after 2005). Furthermore the introduction of the manufacturers ''Basic Operating Philosophy'' has positively contributed to the arrogance of ''having the best SOP's in the world'' attitude.
So please stop bashing ALL the Dutch KLM pilots with your denigrating comments based merely on nationality and colour of tie. Your comments say more about you than about me and a lot of great colleagues of mine...

Regarding AMS;

Schiphol has the most easy infrastructure there is in Europe.

-A taxiway is the inner taxiway and has to be followed clockwise.
-B taxiway is the outer taxiway and has to be followed counter-clockwise.
-Al runway intersections are named respective to their compass direction. i.e runway 27 intersections are named N because it is the northerly runway. 24 is the southerly runway, thus the intersections are called S7, S6 etc. Evenmore the SIDS are also named to their respective runway; ARNEM1S from 24, ARNEM1E from 27.
-Crossing of 36C at W5 only happens when 36C is not in use. If 36C is in use for take off, or 18C for landing, traffic to or from 36L will taxi via Z.
-The use of 36L is merely a political issue and of all operators using AMS, KLM suffers the most from this runway.

If you don't know how to taxi at AMS (see above basic rules) you better should read those Aerodrome Information pages anyway in stead of b*thcing about them. That is called airmanship just as much as situational awareness is.

Last but not least; AMS ATC may sound arrogant to foreign pilots, but they are short, direct and clear without ambiguous clearances or calls. They are flexible with short approaches, offering a break off to 24 from 27, taxi routings etc. And they have the best sense humour of al the ATC stations I know.

So now please lets go back on topic...

:ok:

[Good memories]

Hello,

Nearly 36 years AMS was my home base, 20 years european and 16 years long haul aircraft and routes. IMHO AMS/SPL ATC is very good. I had very few unpleasant experiences. If there was a problem, because I made a mistake or they did , we always had a chat afterwards to sort things out. As I said , maybe three times in 36 years of which at least two were my fault is not that bad.

And yes the Dutch are direct and speak a different english , which may sound sometimes arrogant.

Good Flying!


John

[fortuna76]

Allright let´s get this straight!

Being Dutch I can confirm that we are ALL arrogant. But then offcourse we are the best of the best...:ugh:

In the same line of arrogance we can add:
- The French are snobby
- The germans have no sense of humor
- The British are still frustrated over losing the Empire
- The Italians are all out chashing women (this might actually be true)
- The Spanish are all sleeping siestas under there trees
- The Irish are all sitting in the pub getting drunk

So having put everybody in there box like some people love to do can we move on now.

The real reason why this happened is that both pilots were looking outside enjoying the nice tulips around the taxiway, and really those clogs that we still insist on wearing do not help in steering that 737 straight onto the runway... :E

(sorry couldn't resist)

[papazulu]

- The Italians are all out chashing women (this might actually be true)

...in which case you better make sure that your (cute) sisters, wives, girlfriends, mums etc, etc are all locked up while you are posting on PPrune or away from "base"...:E

Dejavù, I know. But couldn't find a better clichè.

regards

PZ :p

[Avman]

The British are still frustrated over losing the Empire

Too right we are old boy. Bloody poor show!

[soullimbo]

I wonder if KLM has made an official statement about this incident? Only seen a VNV one which wasn't saying a lot. Is this becoming a hush-hush type of operation by KLM to avoid painful memories of Tenerife and the accidents they had at their training facilities?

[Piltdown Man]

I don't think there there's any "hush-hush" operation. As the OVV are investigating, it is probably best not to second guess the outcome of the final report and any public statement would be pointless. Either way, I'll guarantee that they'll take any action they have to in order to prevent a reoccurrence, as you would expect. So the time I'd expect a comment is when the final report is released.

But really, how naive are some of you lot? Or are there trolls posting in this thread? The nationality of the crew and/or airline has bugger all to do with this incident. The relevant bits are what happened immediately prior to the start of the roll the crew's interaction with each other and third parties. The lessons to be learnt from this incident will fortunately be available for all of to learn from, I suppose with the exceptions of the xenophobes who are posting here.

PM

And if you want people to start a list of who shouldn't be in civil airliners, I'd start with a few 'old school' RAF fast jet pilots. Obviously the majority are good guys but amongst them were some of my company's most unpleasant people to fly with. Fortunately, our 'liabilities' left us a few years ago and I was glad to see the back of them. And I'll tell you, I'd prefer to fly with any RNALF F16 driver than one of these plonkers.

(Too old to be a Free Marketeer)

[BOAC]

The nationality of the crew and/or airline has bugger all to do with this incident. - I cannot see any logic in that part of your post - I think it has a lot to do with it. You can straightway rule out language problems and unfamiliarity with the airfield. I would agree that if it was a rare foreign visitor to AMS that had done this, nationality would not be especially relevant, although language capabilities and unfamiliarity with AMS would be relevant. It is, after all, the main base of the airline - it would be like a Heathrow BA crew taking off on a taxiway at LHR, would it not? Not relevant?

[freqslf]

what was happening - for example some of the pax :uhoh:

or at what point did the pilots realize something doesn't look right [/:eek:\-||-/:eek:\]

imagine finding out what is wrong and having to decide: "reject yes / no?"

i'm guessin' one needs to have some "cojones" to be a pilot (sorry for the expression to all ladies in the cockpit)

respect to all of you and thank you! :D


btw, what can i do as a pax, if i see something i'm really sure is wrong during a take-off roll? (fire, fuel leak, smoke..)

[captplaystation]

Just like a bus, ring the little bell over your head and the plane will stop to let you off at the next stop :D

Seriously though, unless it is very early in the take off roll, and you run like a madman and thump the cockpit door ( that would possibly work on Ryanair, don't know about other carriers) "not a lot" is the answer.
It would indeed be fairly horrendous to sit and watch bits of wing or whatever detaching before your eyes, but the acceleration of most modern jets would work against you having the time to intervene in most cases.

Best not to think about it, or you won't ever accept a window seat again :rolleyes:

[freqslf]

thank you for your answer captplaystation, :ok:

would alerting the cabin crew help? (by shouting and being descriptive "fire - engine - right" - i know it is noisy during the roll, but hey i would try it anyway, people would spread the message fairly quickly towards the cc)

what would a pilot (sitting in a window seat as pax, and having the necessary knowledge of the type) do in a situation like Madrid? (witnessing a take-off with incorrect flaps setting)

[ACCP]

At a recent safety course we were shown a photo of a 737 wing half-covered in clear ice.
The photo was taken by a dead-heading pilot from another company, who watched in horror as the aircraft lined up with a layer of fresh powdery snow on its wings. As the 73 accelerated down the runway the snow blew away revealing the clear ice that had been there all night. Surprisingly (or perhaps not so surprisingly - Boeing pilots might be able to enlighten me here) the aircraft managed to fly. The ice was still there at cruising level when the guy took the photo.

Now, if it was me sitting in an aeroplane that was trying to line up without de-icing, I think I would be tempted to get out of my seat and make a fuss, anything to stop these idiots get airborne (or not getting quite airborne - even worse). How I would feel, hours or days later, locked up in a foreign jail, trying to explain to people who don't understand two words of english that I was only trying to stop an accident happening and I wasn't actually attempting to hijack an airliner, I don't know...

[HeadingSouth]

...and then there's the lad sitting in 15A on a Fokker 100 when taxying out to the runway pointing hysterically to the flaps and yelling them not being set properly for take-off, identifying himself as a pilot of another airline, making a lot of fuss and noise about them flaps...

Yes it happened. Not too long ago. Took all crew on board a fair while to get him strapped into the seat again. Poor kid...

[ManaAdaSystem]

Silly lad! Had he been on a certain Spanair flight some time ago, he could actually have saved a good number of lives.

[HeadingSouth]

Agree, if there were a crew member on 15A on Spanair that day then yes it might have helped - if somebody was listening to the crew member and relaying the info in time to the pointy end.

I just don't want to encourage the flying public to spend their flight time watching out for forgotten flaps and other apparently scary things and creating havoc in the cabin.

[Piltdown Man]

BOAC

...it would be like a Heathrow BA crew taking off on a taxiway at LHR, would it not?

Exactly, it would. Are you going to guarantee this wouldn't happen to a BA crew on their home turf or an Air France crew (I nearly wrote Lufthansa, but they are on strike) on theirs? This incident may have been caused by a loss of SA, so what happened to generate that confusion (if there was any)? What is interesting is that this was at a home base and not an outstation. Also, what would have prevented this from happening at an outstation?

We'll all find out.

PM

[nishant chander]

I can understand, if its a parallel runway, but parallel taxiway its a serious breach, especially, the blue taxi way edge lights if its a night time.

[ACCP]

What is interesting is that this was at a home base and not an outstation.

PM, don't tell me you've never been tempted to take off from the taxiway at NCL. Most people reach V1 on their way to the holding point.

[Flying Spaniard]

guys, guys, c'mon!! the Dutch maybe arrogant but also incredibly efficient and green at times, maybe the crew was just trying to save a few grams of CO2 emissions and time??:)

[PENKO]

I can understand, if its a parallel runway, but parallel taxiway its a serious breach, especially, the blue taxi way edge lights if its a night time

I think we all have exactly the same thoughts. However the very fact that they were taxying along blue and green lights for a long time already might worsen the situation, as a colleague of mine recently argued. If all you see when taxying out is green and blue taxiwaylights, and for some reason you are so distracted that you think you are on a runway, then there is no give away: your mind will be accustomed to the green and blue, the lights continue to be green and blue, all seems nice and peaceful. Sounds a bit fuzzy, but human psychology is fuzzy. This mistake for instance, would have less a chance of happening if just for the sake of argument, taxiway B had purple lights. Then there would be a change in stead of a continuation of the same, triggering the mind to be more alert. Of course, we are talking about a situation where a lot has gone wrong already.

Consider also that it was not quite dark yet (as I understand/speculate it at least). So it would not be absolutely necessary to expect a full row of white runway lights. Keep that in mind! So, you don't necessarily expect full rwy lights, there is no sudden change in lighting...crew severely distracted maybe...

Again, very fuzzy, but the answer to a mistake like this will be fuzzy anyway.

[agmhet]

Try this, and be honest !

http://www.humorsphere.com/fun/8787/colortest.swf

I wonder how many pilots get 100% first try !

[737 Speedbrakes]

100% Score

[Pander216]

100%, but then again, I am a KLM pilot :}

This was offcourse sarcastic...

[green granite]

100%, but that's logical since I am a SLF. :E

[Denti]

Exactly, it would. Are you going to guarantee this wouldn't happen to a BA crew on their home turf or an Air France crew (I nearly wrote Lufthansa, but they are on strike) on theirs?

By the way? Which of those airlines have RAAS installed? I heard lufty does, but dunno about the others. Dunno if it would have helped here, but it is supposed to increase situational awareness on the ground.

[617SquadronDB]

Very humorous indeed...

[clouddriver]

Ok, to everyone bashing the total group of 2700+ KLM pilots,

Please come over to my house and have a beer with me, you'll see I'm not very different than all of you, i love aviation, i try to be as professional as i can and i am lucky to have a well paying and stable contract at a an airline that cares well for it's employees. I don't complain and am very grateful to be able to do my job under the conditions provided by KLM.

I have never been told either by my instructors or fellow pilots that I AM THE BEST, some people on her live with the assumption that klm pilots are brain washed to think they are the TOP GUNS of commercial aviation. I don't know where they get it from.....

I would like to tell you that because of the current economic climate and the state af-klm is in, a few hundred pilots are voluntarily working ground shifts iso flying, and they are loading bagage, driving toilet trucks, connecting ground equipment etc etc all with fellow rampers in the cold winter. Do you call this arrogance? Every klm pilot loves their company, yes, but that doesn't make us a arrogant lot, it makes us a PROUD lot.

So please stop all the assumptions, come and have a beer and focus on the serious incident and the lessons that will be learnt

Safe Flying,

clouddriver

[sb_sfo]

I understand that you would like to tell us that hundreds of flight crew are working the ramp this winter. Does that mean that they actually are, or that you would like to tell us that this is a fact?

[piton]

As a pilot from another dutch airline I can assure you that klm pilots are working in other departments as needed.That has been happening since the summer.

Further: the aircraft in question was de-iced on the J platform and sent south on the outer (B or D) taxiway (nonstandard).

Then they were cleared to take off - they turned and took off on the next right hand piece of tarmac which if they were on the standard inner A/C taxiway would have been the runway 36C.

So the non standard taxiway clearance increased the lack of SA. Not an excuse but a contributing factor....

[sb_sfo]

If that's the case, and they are actually driving turd hearses and loading bags, I salute them. As 1/4 Dutch myself, I am glad to hear it. Not many others would do that.

[Admiral346]

Unfortunately you made it a condition to be bashing all the KLM pilots to get that beer with you - I can't, I don't know them all.
But as I have just returned from skiing in Austria, maybe I could qualify for that beer by bashing the dutch's ability to ski? - I could perfectly testify to it, as I just met all of them in that village in tirol...

Cheers, Nic

[Admiral346]

Yes, Lufthansa's fleet is equipped with RAAS - and even as many of us hate "Bitchin' Betty" (the female voice) babbling into a clearance, so one has to inquire with a "confirm cleared line-up?", it sure has found it's way into my scan when approaching a RWY. Or more so, it not being there, when expecting to hear it - kind of like the OM tone when the blue light is flashing and some collegue has turned off the volume.
So I am not sure, if it would keep me from initiating take off on a taxiway, the help you get from it is rather subconscious, but exceeding 40 kts you get a "On taxiway, on taxiway", loud, not to be missed and not heard during everyday ops (except for taking the Q-bridge at AMS and forgetting to close the throttles when going back down the other side of it...). That should tear everyone from their cosy dreamlike state when doing something completely routine.
On the other hand, the standard reply by pilots to a terrain warning is "That can't be!". Of course noone manouvers towards a warning like that consciously, and believing it being valid takes tearing down the entire mental picture of your situation, a very hard thing to do as it leaves you lost in space and time and requires reconstruction of situational awareness in mid flight - resulting in utter confusion.

Then it has helped keep my taxispeed below 40 kts, at least...

Nic

[the_stranger]

@SB SFO

Not only are hunderds of KLM pilots working in other departments (not only on the ramp, but also updating books, translating labor agreement, making flightplans etc), certain CA's are also working "on the ground", as part of the check-in staff, unaccompanied minors transport etc etc. Just today there was news that pilots might even be temporarily employed as cabin crew, allthough that news has not been confirmed to me.

And off course, the majority of the KLM workforce, be it "on the ground" of "in the air" consists of normal people, with their normal dreams, wishes and quirks. There are always some bad apples who fit the "arrogant" description, but are they not to be found in every airline? (or every industry?)

[A/P Disc]

Quote:

"I have never been told either by my instructors or fellow
pilots that I AM THE BEST, some people on her live with the assumption that
klm pilots are brain washed to think they are the TOP GUNS of commercial aviation. I don't know where they get it from....."

Well... I know exactly where some KLM pilots get told that and where they
get it from: the KLM Flight Acadamy (KLS). I've seen it and heard it myself.
Singing songs during the introduction week like: we are the Chosen
ones etc.:yuk:

One can spot the difference between a KLS and Non KLS KLM pilot a mile
away. Young second officers claiming seniority and airplane types.Attitude
problems arising from the KLS system have been a major problem for a long
time and have been well documented over the years.

In all fairness: most KLM pilots are fine folk, some of them are slightly
deluded by a questionable mentality at their flying school.

[PLovett]

Gentlemen, in the formal sense of the word, I have always found it a useful adage in life to never argue with idiots. They will only drag you down to their level and beat you on experience at it. :=

[taildrag]

I was working at a US regional years ago, when I spotted an advert for KLM Cityhopper pilots, who at the time could eventually move up to the mainline. We had a young Swedish lad working for us, and I gave him the advert and asked if he were interested. Fire came immediately into his eyes, and, to my shock and amazement, he actually shouted, at top volume, "I'd never work for those Dutch bastards!" Others in the crew room were startled at his vehemence.

Ah, but on the other side, many Yanks think the old school British captains are arrogant. About 30 years I spoke to an Irish-American who held dual citizenship and was commuting to Bahrain, where he was a Tri-Star captain for Gulf Air.

"How do you like working there?" I inquired.

"Too many Nigels," he replied.;)

Rawther!

[Sauter]

Looks like our Russian friends, join the Dutch/French in this incident at OSL (ENGM) this afternoon, according to Norwegian press!!
Link (sorry, in Norwegian):
Gardermoen: Fly tok av på feil bane | www.rb.no (http://www.rb.no/lokale_nyheter/article4994068.ece)

Scary, and VERY strange I think, but nevertheless possible... :eek:

Regards,

"Sauter" with Homebase OSL

[vovachan]

so what's the prob there exactly:confused:

[Sauter]

Well, being the courteous and naive Viking that I am, I suspect you are REALLY confused, so to clarify:
An Aeroflot Airbus A320 took off from taxiway "N" (November) at ENGM this afternoon (15:15 Local time) - much like the KLM @ EHAM mentioned in another tread.
The Norwegian CAA is looking into this serious incident, I was merely posting, because there is a very similar incident being investigated by the Dutch authorities - Well worth mentioning here, me thinks...

:)

[minimumunstick]

No wonder they can't tell the difference when both the runway markings AND taxiway markings are yellow. That makes it a 50/50 chance to pick the right one! :}

[High 6]

Happened in Beirut with Emirates about 7 yrs ago. Due to the fact that ATC give take off clearances well in advance and pilots were not familiar with layout. It didn't help that the parallel taxiway they had to cross at the end used to be the old runway.... so murphy's law, dark night etc.... and voila! :eek:

[Nubboy]

Just to add some more multi-culturism to the topic, what about the threshold for rwy 28 at DUB (EIDW). Ever so easy to launch off in the wrong direction. The bottow corner where you turn on is a right mish mash of taxiways and runways. Has anyone ever done so?

Not forgetting up the road at BFS (EGAA) where more than one unfortunate has landed at the disused/private (Martin Baker?) airfield on short finals for 07 (I think from memory, not been there for a while).

In a similar theme Air India at Northolt instead of London Heathrow.

Didn't some one else do a military airfield instead of Tblisi last year.

Loads of examples where people have lost their situiatuional awareness, and not one of them in a KLM aircraft, nor under Dutch ATC.

Still there's nothing like a bit of gross generalisation or steorotyping to wind people up:=

[Super VC-10]

The Aeroflot incident story in English.

Incident: Aeroflot A320 at Oslo on Feb 25th 2010, took off taxiway (http://avherald.com/h?article=427cf259&opt=0)

[haejangkuk]

So this error of taking off and landing from and onto taxiways happen to all nationalities, colour, race or creed. Wow! And folks over this forum are so nice, tolerant. But if that happen to an oriental pilot, god forbid. All kinds of diatribes, insinuations .etc:ugh::ugh:

[Avman]

Nubboy, why are you going off topic? This thread is about taking off on taxiways, not landing at the wrong airports. That's been covered enough times before. And wasn't it Pan Am, not Air India?

[Nubboy]

pardon me. I thought it was about loss of situational awareness, especially in regard to looking at one piece of tarmac, and thinking your at another. Getting airborne off a taxiway, or going visual and chucking the tin tube at the wrong runway, with both crew members looking out of the window and KNOWING where they are. I bet there's naff all difference between the mindsets for both types of incident which would make them virtually identical, in psychological terms. Regardless of race colour creed culture or background. They all had a mental model of where they were, which was very very flawed.

I'm also sick and tired of the repeated bashing of one group of people by another, the I'm better than you syndrome.

I thought the aim of our safety culture was to identify areas which have a common theme running through them, rather than just looking down a very narrow tunnel and putting each and every incident in it's own box, with it's own little national flag on it.

[68+iou1]

The investigators in both incidences should look at accumulative fatigue!

[HotelT]

Rumor has it, the KLM 737 simulator check of this semester included takeoffs and landings from narrower-than-usual-runways.

Guess what they used as practice 'Runway' for this session: RTM taxiway(V) ...

"Train the Way You'll Fight; Fight the Way You've Trained"? :uhoh:

[Roddenty]

Funny, three days ago I turned to the right after departure.
Runway? 36L.

Depends on the time of day. 36L is the least noise sensitive.

[soullimbo]

Dutch CAA (IVW) published a statement mentioning that the media suggested these pilots are back at work again, which is denied by IVW.

KLM-piloten vlogen niet door na incident taxibaan - Inspectie Verkeer en Waterstaat (http://www.ivw.nl/actueel/nieuws/klmpilotenvlogennietdoornaincidenttaxibaan.aspx)

Naar aanleiding van het incident met een KLM-vliegtuig dat op woensdagavond 10 februari op de luchthaven Schiphol opsteeg van een taxibaan in plaats van een startbaan, is er in een aantal media gesuggereerd dat de betreffende KLM-crew door is blijven vliegen na deze vlucht. Dit bericht is onjuist.
Volgens KLM-procedures wordt de betrokken bemanning na een incident, dat aanleiding geeft tot een onderzoek tijdelijk vrijgesteld van normale werkzaamheden. Dit met als reden om beschikbaar te zijn voor het onderzoek naar het incident. Het onderzoek naar het incident loopt nog steeds.

Roughly:
There have been media reports suggesting that the KLM crew has been allowed to fly again after the taxi-way take off incident. This is not correct. According to procedures, the crew has been relieved of their flying duties until the accident investigation has been finished so the crew can assist the investigators. The investigation is still ongoing.


In the opinion of some of the online newspaper article comments, that crew will get away with anything (potential second Tenerife type disaster) if KLM allows them to fly again. As a ryanair pilot I don't take off from Schiphol, but a high school friend, a Martinair pilot, simply can't belief how this could have happened as all the visual clues will immediately tell you it's a taxi-way. Sure strange what happened, but surely this could have been history repeating itself.

[wingview]

Why Tenerife??? They took off from the runway itself, but without a clearance. To me two different stories.

[Pander216]

@ Wingview:

Tenerife disaster as in a major on ground collission between two aircraft...

[wingview]

@Pander 216

I was referring to potential second Tenerife type disaster
The result could have been the same, in this case the company is the same but the cause is completly different... To me two seperate issues.

[Pander216]

The Tenerife disaster is a result, not a a cause. That is where Soullibo is referring to. The result in this respective incident could have been the same where as the cause is -in that respect- not relevant. A KLM colliding with an other aircraft while taking off would without a doubt been referred to the Tenerife disaster...

So there definetly is a resemblance between the two situations...

[JW411]

Putting it in very simple words:

This aircraft took off on a taxiway instead of a runway.

If some poor sod had happened to be going about his normal business and was heading down the taxiway for take-off and had been struck at high speed by a 737 going the other way then the result would have been quite nasty.

In fact, although there was no fog or Spanish ATC involved, the result could have been just as tragic - right on their home territory.

The fact that this happened to the one airline that caused the biggest single disaster in aviation is surely quite incidental.

[sleeper]

The fact that this happened to the one airline that caused the biggest single disaster in aviation is surely quite incidental.


I surely hope so, given the fact that it happens to other airlines as well. Being it take offs on taxiways, landing and take offs on wrong runways or landing on the correct runway but not cleared or runway still occupied.
:confused:

[soullimbo]

Update on this case:


DRIEBERGEN - De twee piloten van KLM die eerder dit jaar opstegen vanaf een taxibaan op Schiphol, worden niet gestraft. Dat meldt BNR vrijdag (28 mei). Volgens de nieuwszender heeft na KLM en het Openbaar Ministerie ook de Inspectie Verkeer en Waterstaat besloten geen maatregelen tegen de vliegers te nemen. Wel onderzoekt KLM of de veiligheidsprocedures moeten worden aangescherpt.


Ook de Raad van de Transportveiligheid heeft de zaak nog in onderzoek. Deze instantie kan echter alleen met adviezen komen.

Het incident gebeurde na zonsondergang op 10 februari van dit jaar. Het toestel van KLM steeg op van de taxibaan naast de Zwanenburgbaan. De piloten van de 737 dachten dat ze de start op de baan zelf hadden ingezet. Het vliegtuig steeg zonder problemen op voor de vlucht naar Warschau.

Het besluit om de vliegers niet te straffen, is bij de Vereniging van Nederlandse Verkeersvliegers (VNV) goed ontvangen. De vakbond vindt dat piloten alleen moeten worden aangepakt als er sprake is van opzet.


Via google translation:

Driebergen - The two pilots of KLM earlier this year took off from a taxiway at the airport will not be punished. BNR announced that Friday (May 28). According to the news has after KLM and the Public Ministry, the CAA decided not to take action against the pilots. However KLM investigates whether safety procedures should be strengthened.

The Council of Transport Safety, the case is still under investigation. This authority can only come with advice.

The incident happened after sunset on February 10 this year. The unit of KLM rose on the taxiway next to the Zwanenburgbaan. The pilots of the 737 thought they were on the runway rather than a taxiway. The plane went without further problems to Warsaw.

The decision not to punish the pilots, is the Dutch Transport Pilots Association (VNV) well received. The union believes that pilots should only be addressed if there is intent.

==

Looks done and dusted. Turkish pilots were at mistake and this was pointed
out by IVW and VNV in a grand fashion. KLM pilots got away as if nothing ever happened ... Worrying behaviour by the Dutch. However you want to defend it, they would have been reprimanded in other countries.

[Frosch]

A "No Punishment"-safety culture is essential to a safe airline operation. It actually allows crews to openly report incidents - confidential or not - without the need of trying to cover the mistakes they made.

Aviation is one of the - if not the only - fields where such a philosophy exists. Try to figure out how many people die each year in the hospitals around the world because there is no possibility to learn from mistakes others made (their “mistakes” being buried in not a few cases...) and no chance to avoid systemic problems and erase them.

Taking off from a taxiway is a mistake. The only thing of interest is how to avoid such mistakes, not how to get after the guys who made it. A simple waste of time and manpower.

How many mistakes did you make while driving your car last year, some without you being at fault – and how many of them did you report to the officials to help them to cure possible accident hotspots on our streets?

None? Well, that’s the difference. Pilots report their mistakes. In good companies and mature legal systems they do this without fear. One of the reasons why it’s dangerous on the streets – an safe in the air.

[sleeper]

KLM pilots got away as if nothing ever happened ... Worrying behaviour by the Dutch. However you want to defend it, they would have been reprimanded in other countries.


They will not be criminally prosecuted, that's wat this message says. What will happen internally is up to KLM. And don't think nothing will be said/done.

[Diamond Bob]

So what did these KLM guys miss that caused this incident? Seems their heading would have been correct if it was a parallel taxiway. And if an intersection takeoff there would have been no runway markings.

[grumpyoldgeek]

Perhaps the yellow line in front of them instead of a white line?

[jackharr]

I’m sure this idea will be received as being stupid, but chicanes (or some other curves) on parallel taxiways ought to make it patently obvious that a taxiway isn’t a runway. Chicanes would be relatively cheap to build.

[s_bakmeijer]

thought there was snow on the twy's 'n rwy's that day,.. night //

[M609]

thought there was snow on the twy's 'n rwy's that day,.. night //

At ENGM with AFL: Winter yes, but more than 24 HRS since snowfall, and they sweep it to near "black" conditions in that time. And oh yes, it was sky clear and the sun beating down. (15:00-ish)

[HeadingSouth]

I quite like the idea of speed bumps or other "chikanes" on the taxiways !

would make the odd takeoff / landing on taxiways even more interesting !!

seriously: why aren't we just glad that the taxiway was straight, long enough and suitable to be used as a runway ? I am pretty sure the souls on board did...

[testpanel]

So, the Norwegians already have a conclusion of an investigation of a simular incident.
Where is the news from the dutchies?????

[soullimbo]

Nearly two years on and this investigations seems to take longer than the AF crash.

Is it normal that it takes this long to investigate an incident like this?
I don't understand this unless a lack of resources and time at the Dutch investigation authority.
Looks for an outsider like they want to forget about it. I am interested to read what went on in the skipper's head.

[ATCast]

It' not unusual for the Dutch Investigation Board to take a long time before publishing the final report. Intermediate reports are only published if there is an urgency to it. Most reports take two to four years to complete, some much longer.

For example the investigation into runway incursion by a Boeing 757 on January 29, 2004, was not closed until August 11, 2010. So that was only 6.5 years for what they call a "short" investigation.

The investigation into the incident of February 10, 2010 will be a "full" investigation, let's hope that hasn't any bearing on the duration.

[Piltdown Man]

The only thing of interest is how to avoid such mistakes.

Thank you Frosch. Unfortunately some of our dinosaur colleagues can not understand what a "just culture" is all about and we'll have to bang it into their thick skulls time and time again.

Dinosaur speak:

KLM pilots got away as if nothing ever happened ... Worrying behaviour by the Dutch. However you want to defend it, they would have been reprimanded in other countries.

Firstly this a pretty ignorant comment. May I suggest that a lot more than 'nothing' happened. If relevant, appropriate retraining and checking would have carried out and if there was something to be learnt as an industry, that would be released by KLM in an appropriate fashion. But the deal for this to take place is that the crew say what happened and how, as far as they are able.

But let's move on. Imagine Soullimbo is party to an "interesting" incident which was NOT the result of criminal intent or negligence. Judging by the tone of his post, there would be need for the facts to be discussed, because they would not be relevant. Just because he was there he must be guilty. So after we have ripped up his licence, should we lock him up for a few years or would a fine be more appropriate?

[reivilo]

Final report has been released today (in Dutch)

http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/docs/rapporten/Rapport_Taxibaan_webversie_defintief_131211.pdf

[decurion]

It seems like a classic runway confusion incident. The factors that were related to this incident are typically reported in such cases. Six of the causal factors out of the top eight were present in the EHAM taxi takeoff.

[edmundronald]

Surface Runway in Green, Taxiway in Red, this should cut down on mistakes, and pilots can be told use RED in those cases of desperate emergency which real life can provide (rwy damage by accident and disaster airlift necessary).

[MathFox]

How would surface colouring help under snowy conditions (as they were in Amsterdam)?

[ray cosmic]

In my book, non-punitive means coming forward with (potential) encountered dangers during the flight which without the report would not be known to anyone. This was not applicable in this case, since ATC notified them of the mishap - without a report from the crew, the incident would still be known.
What is interesting, is that - perhaps conveniently- the CVR "event" button was not pushed afterwards (contrary to regulations) ; so any cockpit conversation was not available anymore to the investigators.
Maybe the crew was not having a silent cockpit/ F/A chatting away on the flightdeck? Nobody knows. Smart game from the crew if they knew they were distracted for whatever reason..
What do we learn from this? Keep taxicharts ready, which is a standard in most airlines anyway.
Thank God nothing actually happened.

[hofdoe]

To the best of my understanding the EVENT PB only interacts with the ACMS system and not the CVR. To keep CVR recordings the CVR must be swiched OFF, either by means of an installed switch, or by pullng the respective CB.
To imply that the crew was trying to cover their actions up by not reporting the incident to ATC is in my opinion quite speculative.
I understood from the report that ATC informed the crew quite soon. I think that the crew never having been aware of their error is a theory which lies better with me.
rgrds

[sleeper]

Tower controler informed crew immediately after lift off. At that point the crew still wasn't aware of their taxiway take-off. Read the report.

[sleeper]

Transcript atc tape, translated by me. Relevant parts were in dutch.

TWR: KLM1369
KLM: 1369 go
TWR: Did you realize it sir?
KLM: eh...no
TWR: 1369 can you give me a phone call?
KLM: eh.. allright.
TWR: At your destination, or enroute?
KLM: eh.. destination.
TWR: okay we will arrange a discrete frequency, for the time
contact 119.05 (departure controler)

Later on the discrete frequency:

KLM: 1369 Hey
TWR: Yes 1369 good evening, ehh... did you reflect on the situation?
KLM: eh.. yes of course....eeh...I cannot imagine what it is.
TWR: eeh.. we let you go.... because you already had a high speed, but
you.... do you realize you departed from the taxitrack?
KLM: No I did not.....ok thank you
KLM: ...I understand...eh..I will report it also... ehm..well thank you for
passing it on.

[Ten-miles final]

...the CVR "event" button was not pushed afterwards (contrary to regulations)...

There is no such a switch in 737. To stop CVR you have to find appropriate circuit breaker on CB panel and pull it. Otherwise it will not stop even after engines shut down and continue to run as long as AC power available. I can imagine the situation in the cockpit and flight crew stress after communication with ATC described above. It's pointless to blame crew, they just were unable to remember about recorder until landing at destination.

[soullimbo]

After having read the report, I am even more confused. In all honesty, it looks like a bag of facts which are not connected, some textbook theory, and a couple of bullet points at the end which again don't make sense....
The only thing which makes sense is something most of us would have figured out before the report. They were in a hurry to get going.