TV News Helicopter Crash in Brazil with Video

[Pugachev Cobra]

At around 0920 GMT today February 10, the brazilian "Rede Record" News Network helicopter crashed at São Paulo's Jockey Club after the pilot reported tail rotor problems.

Another news network helicopter, from Globo network was on the scene and filmed the accident.

Both helicopters were covering a robbery.

The pilot of the Globo helicopter was interviewed, saying that the Rede Record pilot reported failure with the tail rotor and was heading for the Jockey Club, which is a clearing amid buildings in the city. Then he noted that the Record helicopter was sideways, and suddenly it started yawing and losing altitude rapidly. A smoke is seen during the altitude loss, and the helicopter crashed on the ground.

The Globo helicopter which filmed the accident landed after the accident to help. There were 2 on board the crashed helicopter, the cameraman and the pilot.

Unfortunately, the pilot died with the impact, while the cameraman survived with injuries, and was conscious while taken to the hospital.

The Globo helicopter pilot said that after landing and switching off the battery and fuel pump, he ran for the crash, and noted the cameramen was alive and conscious complaining about pain, while the pilot was "bent" on the controls unconscious.

The crashed helicopter is probably an Eurocopter "Esquilo" AS350B.

These are similar videos in case the link breaks after some time, the first one showing the other helicopter landing next to the crashed one.

Helicóptero sofre pane e cai em São Paulo - Globo Vdeos Player (http://playervideo.globo.com/webmedia/player/embed/GMCPlayMidia?midiaId=1208352&autoStart=true&idEmbed=1&banda=I&telaCheia=true&ntr=true&nocache=1265803056125)

Globo Vídeos - VIDEO - Helicópetro da TV Record cai em São Paulo (http://video.globo.com/Videos/Player/Noticias/0,,GIM1208331-7823-HELICOPETRO+DA+TV+RECORD+CAI+EM+SAO+PAULO,00.html)

1nMGhjt0mWs

UPDATE: Video of the onboard camera from the crashed helicopter

Long version since the robbery:
Helicóptero da Rede Record cai em São Paulo (http://videos.r7.com/helicoptero-da-rede-record-cai-em-sao-paulo/idmedia/7f8cbb9c9c110f2f4f9ecf4778b12348.html)

Short version of the last minute:
Piloto do helicóptero da Rede Record morre após acidente aéreo em SP (http://videos.r7.com/piloto-do-helicoptero-da-rede-record-morre-apos-acidente-aereo-em-sp/idmedia/4b571b27e90b9955d57d71bcfeeb84de-1.html)

Portuguese news with the pictures of the crew onboard and the videos above:
Piloto de helicóptero da TV Record morre após queda de aeronave no Jockey Club (http://noticias.r7.com/sao-paulo/noticias/piloto-de-helicoptero-da-tv-record-morre-apos-queda-de-aeronave-20100210.html)


Another news source with a on scene picture of the crash:
Helicóptero da 'Record' cai no Jockey Club de SP; 1 morre (http://noticias.terra.com.br/brasil/noticias/0,,OI4256324-EI8139,00-Helicoptero+da+Record+cai+no+Jockey+Club+de+SP.html)

http://p1.trrsf.com.br/image/get?o=cf&w=619&h=464&src=http://img.terra.com.br/i/2010/02/10/1439292-9267-atm14.jpg

Any thoughts on the cause of the accident?

And what should the pilot have done to prevent it?

Investigation authorities are already on the scene.

[Cubs2jets]

In a helicopter, if you loose the tail rotor i.e. gearbox/shaft/rotor failure, you have to keep your forward speed up so the tail fin can act as the "anti-torque" control. This requires a run on landing.

C2j

[Newgen Jock]

Actually, if the tail-rotor DRIVE fails, you're going down closeby............Have to enter autorotation and cut the engine fuel flow (torque) for an autorotative landing right nearby. If the power (ie torque) is kept on, the heli WILL spin rapidly resulting in disorientation and rapid loss of control. Otherwise an autorotative landing is the ONLY choice in this case (but you've only got seconds to recognise and take action.................) and on landing the heli will try to turn slowly in the SAME direction as the main rotor (gearbox friction) but can be controlled.
However, if the tail rotor is still spinning but CONTROL (ie pitch) is lost, then in many cases you can continue at some speed for a run-on landing (or other manouevre as recommended by the Manufacturer!) onto a smooth surface, as previously mentioned.
Poor guys probably never knew what hit them...............Tail rotor drive failure at low speed/ hover is a killer in no time unfortunately.

[PJ2]

Cubs2jets;
I'm a fixed-wing pilot - (never been in a machine where all the important bits is trying to get away from all the other important bits, although in fairness, Sergei Sikorsky, who was the keynote speaker at an ALPA Safety Conference in Washington DC stated that helicopter pilots were a lot smarter because, like our feathered friends and very much unlike our fixed-wing group, they stopped before alighting), but I wonder if "auto-rotation" is another solution? No torque, therefore no rotation - or does it work that way? I understand the choice of landing field is limited but it is with any "run-on" landing as well.

Newgen Jock, you anticipated the question, thanks...I thought as much.

[charlieDontSurf]

Well....If the driveshaft fails, and the vertical stabiliser is intact, and you have forward speed (more than 20 kts), you should be able to continue without the tailrotor if you reduce the power. Then you can find a suitable landingspot, set up a steep approach, enter autorotation, cut the fuelflow and make an autorotational emergencylanding.

If you loose tailrotor control on an AS 350, you should reduce power to 60-70 kts, press Hyd Test for 5 sec (or accu-test depending on model), then make a shallow approach with a side-slip to the left, and touch down when the machine gets aligned with the direcion of travel (probably with forward speed). It's easier with the wind coming from the right.

If you loose the vertical stabiliser AND the gearbox, you will probably be well out of CG, plus you don't have the "weather-cock" effect from the tailfin, so the machine will most likely come to a spin nose-down, impossible to recover from.

-AS 350 pilot.

[Newgen Jock]

In an autorotation, the airflow from below, keeps the blades turning (PROVIDED you "dump" collective pitch immediately) thus building up enough rotor system energy for a "flare" and to apply pitch before touchdown when the rotor rpm then decays as you touch down. And it is a repeatable, practiseable (!) and survivable manoeuvre, almost anywhere.
Tail rotor drive failure is altogether another (lethal) animal though it is POSSIBLE to mitigate the forced-landing by autorotating if immediate and correct action is taken.

Hope this helps..........

BTW, not current though have a fair few heli hours........;)

[charlieDontSurf]

It doesn't need to be lethal if you react correct....

As said, in flight, it shouldn't be that big a problem if you recognise the malfunction (sudden yaw, and no reaction when moving the pedals).

It's more risky to dump the collective and autorotate where you are, than actually fly to a suitable landingsite (airfield etc).

What you SHOULD do in any case is cut the fuel-flow before you cushion the landing, orelse you'll be spinning all over the place on touchdown...

[FH1100 Pilot]

Whatever happened to that Astar undoubtedly began well before the spin/crash. If you watch the the report that includes video from the accident ship, at about 2:00 minutes in, "something" happens and then camera snaps around to film backward toward the tail rotor. The aircraft assumes a left yaw/right bank attitude and continues flying, somewhat erratically. Around 4:50 the aircraft enters a left bank and it appears that it does a left 360 turn around the mast. But the pilot remains in control. You can see him get lower and lower, until it finally starts spinning and we lose the video feed at around 7:20. Time from the onset of the problem to the crash: a little over five minutes.

Switch now to the video shot from the other newscopter. In the first link, the video begins with the Astar arriving high over the site, and already rotating slowly to the left. It quickly picks up speed. While spinning, the ship begins droppping vertically, very fast. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think the puff of smoke from the engine comes when the pilot shuts it down to stop the spin. At the bottom, either he doesn't even pull any pitch or the rotor rpm has gone away and there's no cushion left.

Very sad to watch, and it must have been gut-wrenching for the crew in the other newscopter.

Maybe we'll never know why the pilot elected to do a landing in that small site with a tail rotor problem - instead of taking it to a bigger area or an airport.

Not every helicopter pilot is Chuck Yeager.

[Tarman]

A helicopter suffers what appears to be some sort of mechanical failure, at no more than a couple of hundred feet with no apparent warning and crashes killing the pilot and seriously injuring the passenger and what do we get here ?
Self appointed experts telling us where the poor guy went wrong and what he should have done.

There should be an idiot monitor set up on this forum that prevents fools from posting.

[FH1100 Pilot]

There should be an idiot monitor set up on this forum that prevents fools from posting.

Tarman, why so angry? Perhaps you missed the part of the OP's post where he stated that the pilot of the crashed Astar reported a problem and said he was heading for the Jockey Club to put it down. If true (and from the looks of the video feed from the ship itself it does appear that this was the case), this means that the problem did not occur at "a couple of hundred feet with no apparent warning."

I might agree with your idea of an idiot monitor for this site. Then again...it might have detected your post and prevented it from showing.

It is sad - whatever happened - but tail rotor EP's are spelled out and we, as professional pilots are supposed to know how to perform them. Taking his Astar to that small, obstructed site was a questionable decision. Tragically, it proved to be the wrong one.

[Pugachev Cobra]

To add, the pilot who watched the crash advised the other pilot to do what I think is a "straight-in landing". The pilot of the helicopter with problems then said he was going to try the "straight-in landing".

If you see the bottom of this news page, you can see on the map where it crashed, and it's noticeable why it's a place chosen for emergencies, since it's got a large strip, used for horse racing.

G1 > Edição São Paulo - NOTÍCIAS - 'Ele relatou pane pelo rádio', diz piloto que viu queda de helicóptero em SP (http://g1.globo.com/Noticias/SaoPaulo/0,,MUL1484552-5605,00.html)

Also the pilot who landed and assisted said that he "switched off the battery, fuel pump, all these things" of the other helicopter.

[VeeAny]

I think that some people have been a bit harsh and I hope the ACME book of helicopter flying is all I ever need if faced with such a situation, some of us have clearly swallowed it.

Speculation is one thing but none of us where in it with them, over a very congested area with one tail rotor that seems to have caused the problem, I don't think any of us at this moment in time can say what he should have done, I doubt anyone will be able to do that until an accident report appears, and even then perhaps we should limit it, to what he could have done, he may have considered his options to be very limited.

I agree with FH1100 pilot about the smoke that it could have been the pilot turning off the fuel cock/valve whatever its called on an AS350, I have seen several turbine engines shutdown by use of the fuel cock and they all gave a short burst of smoke just like the one seen in the video.

Can I suggest a little more respect for the guy, particularly on the day he died.

May he rest in peace.

[Coconutty]

Very sad - R.I. P - Thouhgts are with the pilot's family, friends and colleagues.

Pugachev Cobra - There seem to be two threads with similar titles and identical content started by you ( this one and another half hour previously ).

Mod's - can they be merged ?

Coconutty

[Pugachev Cobra]

Pugachev Cobra - There seem to be two threads with similar titles and identical content started by you ( this one and another half hour previously ).Yes, I was not sure if Rumours & News or Rotorheads was the best place, so I cross posted in the hopes of it reaching a broader audience. Mods eventually moved the Rumours & News here, which is the one with more replies.

Didn't find anything in the FAQ where to post regarding News about helicopters. Now i know.

[Hedge36]

With that spin rate, the fact that he was able to make his intended spot at all is remarkable.

There but for the grace of God, as they say.

[birrddog]

With a Loss of Tail Rotor induced spin, what ability does one have to control airspeed and direction for a (successful) auto?
Edited to add: with no pedal control managing directional and speed control becomes much more complicated, and possibly cross controlling (cyclic for lack of pedal) further complicating matters...

I would imagine falling down at the angle he did there would not have been enough Rotor RPM to arrest the landing?

With the little we know and can see from the video, is one able to draw any speculation?

[chopjock]

How do you practice a hovering tail rotor failure in a AS350 when you can't get to the throttle lever?:confused: Indeed does any A star pilot practice auto rotations on his own because of this?

[Hedge36]

I haven't watched all of the linked videos, but I did see the ship's camera footage... it wasn't clear to me that he was ever in a hover. What I'm trying to figure out (and admittedly perhaps watching the rest of the videos might clue me in) is how, with as much forward airspeed as he was carrying, he ever got involved in such a violent spin to begin with.

Absolutely gut wrenching to watch.

[malabo]

Video looks to me like:
Flying around ENG like normal until the tailrotor problem, then he tucks the camera away (or maybe was trying to see if he could see his own tailrotor) He flies banked and crabbed crosscountry for a while until he can reach the open field of the Jockey Club. Approaching the field he descends down to a lower altitude and starts to slow down. As the slipstream effect decreases and finally lets go, the aircraft starts to spin -unfortunately he is still a ways in the air (100'?). He manages to keep the aircraft level as it spins, probably chops the throttle after the second turn (you can see the yaw slow down), and then hits the ground heavily but still in a flat attitude in the middle of the clearing away from obstacles. Almost made it. Easy to armchair now, but in the cockpit this pilot looked like he was going to give it his best shot and not stop trying.

[AnFI]

If you study the directional microwave antenna - it acts as an 'artificial horizon / attitude indicator' ... the gyros of the camera also provide a very high quality attitude indicator - it seems to be particularly high quality - since there is very little 'horizon drift' wrt the horizon.

It appears that the tail rotor has ceased to provide thrust for a very long period of that flight - it also looks like the pilot maintains sufficient speed to prevent uncontrolled yaw rate. The degree of roll indicates the side slip - there is one 'lapse' in speed and you can see the degree of roll caused reduces as the speed reduces - there is then a short loss of control in yaw - and then the pilot regains a speed power combination which controls the yaw again - he has almost taught himself to control the machine with no yaw authority. Maybe he has never been taught this? For some reason the speed drops again - either by choice (perhaps to land in the perceived small space) - or perhaps due to to some further issue...?

Once control is lost the high yaw rate maybe causes such high precession loads on the engine bearings that the engine is severely damaged and releases oil (at least). (60 degrees per second yaw rate limit in AS350) .. or perhaps oil starvation from hight 'centrifugal' loads....

Very difficult to judge 'pitch pull' timing when yawing at very high rate...

Poor chap - very sad :( - nearly makes it - is the right training given?
(refer to: Wessex in Wales and Bell 206 near Black Bush - very sad)
Vietnam era army training may not be appropriate any more?
Have you practised landings with no tail rotor thrust?

... or is it something else? - accident report.....

[Brian Abraham]

Vietnam era army training may not be appropriate any more?
I don't understand what you are trying to say. Care to expand.
Have you practised landings with no tail rotor thrust?
How do you do that?

[mickjoebill]

yet another scene of the cabin roof decapitation and deceased pilot.
Apparently zero shock absorbed by the seats.

Would be great if the cabin roof were designed to deflect/sheer a rotor blade.

I'd trade the nice leather for energy absorbing foam and a helmet.


In respect to the video, the camera seems to have been put into stow mode. which is a user programable position activated by a single switch (lens pointing backwards with lens raised to prevent bug strikes in transit and ground contact)
This could have been a (good) reaction of the cameraman to prepare himself and the equipment for an emergency landing or simply a fast way to get the camera to point toward the tail.
How fortunate that the gearbox was displaced backward and not into the cabin.

I wish him a speedy recovery

Mickjoebill

[Sir Niall Dementia]

The smoke definately looks like the engine being stop cocked from flight power. I've seen that done by a slightly over-enthusiastic TRE and the effects were very similar.

I haven't flown a 350 for some time, but our TREs used to simulate a tail rotor control jam at high power by putting in enough foot and making us land without any pedal inputs.

A TR drive failure is the time we all become test pilots. Very few people know how any aircraft will behave without TR drive (even fewer survive the experience to tell the rest of us what to do) The designers will have a model of the idea and that is what goes in the AFM, and most of the idea will come from the textbooks.

I had a TR drive failure a long time ago and the AFM was totally wrong in what it thought should happen. Even in auto-rotation directional control was a hell of a lot less, and a lot harder to manage than I expected. Luckily we were fairly low and the impact was with a fair chunk of forward speed. However I could feel that we were on the edge of a severe spin, probably with catastrophic results.

I also wonder what the pilot's survival chances would have been with the new seats fitted to the 350 range. From the picture this aircraft had the old ones, the new ones would have crushed a long way down and maybe kept him clear of the roof and cyclic.

[Hedge36]

Niall, one of my primary instructors was a former Air Cav pilot, and made me land an R-22 several times with his foot jammed firmly against one pedal, then up and around to try the other. We did it several times, often without warning.

I'll always be grateful to him for that.

I shudder to think what a full TR loss would feel like, especially as the green/brown/black stuff got closer and experimentation became a matter of survival.

[charlieDontSurf]

Self appointed experts telling us where the poor guy went wrong and what he should have done.

Tarman:
As proffessionals. we should discuss other people's mistakes, so we learn from them and don't make them ourselves. "You don't have to break a leg to know it hurts"
That's why we have accident reports.
Nobody has claimed to be experts or better than anyone, and the easiest thing after an accident, is to say what the poor guy should have done. But when we discuss it, we become aware. And that saves lives!:ok:

Chopjock:

How do you practice a hovering tail rotor failure in a AS350 when you can't get to the throttle lever?http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/confused.gif Indeed does any A star pilot practice auto rotations on his own because of this?

On the AS 350 B3 the trottle is on the collective and easily accessible.
But on the older B2's one would have a problem cutting the throttle with a TR failure in hover. One solution would be to lower the collective as soon as possible to stop the yaw-rate, and cushion the best one can, spinning all over the place.
We don't practice that. It's too risky as we don't have a 350-sim. But we just got a 350-sim in Norway that would be a welcome training aid, as you can do certain emergencies exactly as in real-life. (ex fire-drill).
We do practice "stuck pedal" with running landings, and hover-autos, as the instructor cuts the throttle.
I practice autos (power-on of course) on my own all the time to know the gliding-distance and practice to hit clearings. It's good training.

In our company we specialise in sling-load ops, and our workday is mostly at 15m with a sling, with obstacles around the machine. Our worst nightmare is to strike the tail into a tree or something at that altitude, and with rough terrain all around. You don't have the best odds if it happens.
The 350 also has a pretty low tailrotor, so it's easy to get a strike when landing confined. We are pretty tail-rotor focused.

[AnFI]

Brian

Vietnam:
My understanding was that due to very high loss rates in training tr failure - there was a descision to stop teaching how to deal with tail rotor failure - and the advice became just to enter auto rotation ... is that about right? (historians?)
I guess pilot's learnt pretty soon in SE Asia anyway through the Darwinian process ... no?

How? :
The instructor just sets thrust to simulate the tr characteristics he wants. Maybe neutral thrust , (maybe also a little negative thrust to simulate the lost drag). The trainee can then practice the application of torque independantly from pitch/thrust untill he can land in a docile manner - get used to power/speed management etc. (there are many subleties eg non rotating tr still has pitch control so you may find a location where the tr blades don't oscillate... etc)

[Helinut]

My condolences to friends and family of the pilot. May he RIP in the knowledge that in response to this incident he avoided any injury to third parties.

For TR failures the recommended EPs are really just best educated guesses as to what might be a good idea. No one really knows. Such failures are frequently categorised into "stuck pedal" and "TR failure" but life is more complicated than that and diagnosis can be a real problem. The failure may amount to more than a loss of TR control or thrust.

As others have said, there is only so much you can do in simulation on a real helicopter. Simulators have some advantages (you can crash them without consequences) but they only show what has been written into the code of the computer. If that code is not based on hard flight data, there is guesswork in there too.

We have to take every opportunity to learn from such awful incidents as this one, but I don't think most of us are criticising the pilot, even if our hastily chosen words might suggest that to some. In such incidents the pilot is beyond his previous experience and being subject to some very disorienting physical effects.

AnFI mentions that at some point the aircraft speed reduces to the point where a noticeable yaw occurs. If, god forbid, it had been me flying this, I might well have reduced speed at height to see at what point I began to lose yaw control. This would be a useful indicator, if I was contemplating a run-on landing.

[SimFlightTest]

Being an aero engineer in the simulation industry for the past 11 years, I can say that almost every simulator operator asks for the loss of TR thrust failure to be made easier to fly than flight test data suggests.

You may be asking yourself "Sim validation data exists for tail rotor failures?!" Well.... no, but we are able to infer how the aircraft will perform without the tail rotor using several specialized flight test maneuvers. But in the end we are just making a guess, albiet a fairly educated one.

[Brian Abraham]

My understanding was that due to very high loss rates in training tr failure - there was a descision to stop teaching how to deal with tail rotor failure - and the advice became just to enter auto rotation
I can assure you that's codswallop. The first time I had practical training in tail rotor failures was with the US Army in Vietnam, never heard of any accidents (not saying there weren't any) but would have been few, if any. Our unit continued with the practice on checkrides till the end. Was never taught the failure in either the US Navy or Oz Navy.
there are many subleties eg non rotating tr still has pitch control so you may find a location where the tr blades don't oscillate
What level of experience do you have?
You may be asking yourself "Sim validation data exists for tail rotor failures?!" Well.... no, but we are able to infer how the aircraft will perform without the tail rotor using several specialized flight test maneuvers. But in the end we are just making a guess, albiet a fairly educated one.
On the 76 years ago one training organisation was teaching for a tail rotor drive failure in the hover, assuming you had the power available, to climb vertically to 1,000 or so, nose it over to get airspeed, and fly to a suitable strip for an auto. Practiced it in the sim, but always questioned the possibility of being able to do so in real life. The reasoning behind the procedure was that we flew single pilot and not enough hands for collective, cyclic and throttles.

[AnFI]

Helinut Sure.... Testing 'loss-of-yaw-control' speed might be a good idea and it might be the case that that is what has happened here and sure you might well do that - but it is unlikely you'd deliberately go to the point of a full rotation (as soon as it looked like getting past 90degrees you might reduce the torque - no? Pick up a bit more speed - that sort of thing) - it appears more like - as you say "pilot is beyond his previous experience and being subject to some very disorienting physical effects." - and he was self teaching by neccessity - nearly got it.

Nobody is criticising the pilot in the negative sense - poor fellow - good effort - very sad.

You can train for this if you think the maths justifies it.

Was he trained to perform landing in the event of TR FAIL?

It's not such a mystery to teach - a competant handling pilot can make a simulation as realistic as you like in a real machine (with the exception of GoG issues in the event of loss of TR GBox)

That's one reason for the uncomfortable feelings in flying a machine without engine control on the lever.

FCL's on the floor:= - the ceiling:= - 'on/off' FCL's:= (eg B3Plus)
- not good.... for a pilot...

[Helinut]

I agree that twist grip always feels best for the pilot. Many moons ago I used to fly Robinsons. The combination of the twist grip and the responsive engine allowed you to exercise really good control, almost feeling it onto the ground (as an in-practice instructor). My recent types EC135/MD902 also have twist grips x 2. Bit more of a handful, although you can always do one at a time. The mechanisms and engine responses are more difficult than single piston engine though. OK for in-flight shutdown, but trying to finesse TR control failures would be interesting.

[Sir Niall Dementia]

To me one of the most impressive pieces of flying ever was the Bristow Puma crew who got down after a lightning strike, when the whole TRGB pulled out of the tail. Astonishing handling and amazing CRM.

I've got a couple of thousand hours on the 332 and tried TR drive failures on every visit to the sim. IIRC I got the crash into a reasonably small area, but never managed what that Bristow crew did.

When TR drive failure happened to me I was probably led by the sim into thinking it couldn't be as bad as it actually was, admittedly the failure was on a different type, but I expected some similarities. BIG WRONG.

[AnFI]

... there was a rather smooth pilot in the UK who lost the rear part of his tail boom during his second mid air collision and still landed well !:D

[Flyting]

I had a colleage lose the entire tail boom of a 407 (1 0f a handfull around the world) He immediately dropped collectice with out closing throttle, came down in an auto style descent and towards the end of the flare, the ship began to spin, at which time he cut the throttle and cushioned the landing, bending only the skids, in a 180 or so style landing. It was his fortune that this was a technique taught to him just previous to the accident.

[levo]

Another Eurocopter tr failure:

[BlenderPilot]

Sad to hear,

- I have seen at least 3 instances on where AS350's lose their tail rotor control or thrust without hitting anything, and I have never seen a Bell do that in flight just out of the blue.

- I don't know what model it looks like it was not a B3 model that had collective mounted throttle, I can't believe why any helicopter designer manufacturer would still do this today.

RIP

[Gordy]

Firstly---RIP to the pilot.

Secondly---this is one of those failures that you can deal with and put the thing on the ground. It comes down to training. Without training, it comes down to basic understanding of the aircraft and luck. As most on here know, I had a similar failure back in 2001, and luck was on my side. I had never been trained in the procedure, I did exactly what he did, except, I was only about 5 feet when I started to spin and cut the engine. Obviously my outcome was different to his.

I have since been trained in the maneuver, and continue to recieve annual training on how to do it. Without trying to advertise, I recommend Glen White for the training, ask me where if you are serious about it.

[AnFI]

Helinut:
" My recent types EC135/MD902 also have twist grips x 2. Bit more of a handful, although you can always do one at a time. The mechanisms and engine responses are more difficult than single piston engine though. OK for in-flight shutdown, but trying to finesse TR control failures would be interesting."

That is very interesting - yes it is very easy to have very good control in the highly responsive piston - but it still works ok in other light single turbines - so how does it work in the twin/902 - do you manipulate the pair of engines to make the torque change? Very low energy rotor head in the 902 not much energy to borrow from whilst not supplying energy from the engine...

... there was a chap who landed the 902 brilliantly somewhere near London with a T/R fail - great job !! - Was he trained in TR fail?
... and a 902 in Germany not so successful - was he trained?

How would you deal with it with FCL's on the ceiling?

[AnFI]

Just out of curiosity - if you can remember when you were not experienced - before you went to Vietnam were you trained in TR fail?

and

What was the officially recomended method At that time?

1 - Give up - tail rotor failures are unrecoverable (It has been willed from above)
2 - Auto rotate - cut engine accept the possibilty of gentle roll over.
3 - Running landing with Engine-Torque yaw control.
4 - Don't worry about it since it might not happen and if it does you'll think of something on the spur of the moment - nothing to lose.

It's quite an interesting question I suppose - which method where people here shown ? Where, when? eg. self taught, UK, 1958


Q

[VeeAny]

Q

An interesting question about when and where.

What I recall of my history of Tail Rotor Failure Training.
During PPL training I don't believe it was mentioned [1995-1998]
Edited to Add it was part of an R44 type rating in 1998, with autorotation being suggested as the option. No discussion of control jams, loss of drive or loss of components.
During FI training no mention [1999]
During FI renewal was demoed stuck neutral by Philip Sheldon [2000 or 2001]

Then had to demonstrate it back, which was easy having just watched him do it.

Being naturally inqusitive ( in case you hadn't noticed) I then set about trying learn about different peoples techniques and effectively expanded my envelope of Tail Rotor failure training skills based upon those techniques.

I think I built up from stuck neutral / feet off through to stuck right then to stuck left.

Because of the nature of training out of Biggin Hill when I was there and us not being able to do circuits on a regular basis I would then use the transit time back from Redhill to set the student up for an engine off or tail rotor malfunction of some kind to our FATO (big patch of grass) almost every time.

I suppose experience helps you plug some of the holes in your training in any subject but it should not be that way in aviation.

It is interesting to note what Sir Niall Dementia says about his experience being very different from training.



GS

[212man]

Maybe a browse through the following might be in order for some:

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAPAP2003_01.PDF

Dealing with TRFs is another one of those topics that generates inordinate amounts of ill-informed drivel - sadly.

Be under no illusions as to how quickly the transition, from apparent control to loss of control, will occur as you slow down. Torque is increasing exponentially while vertical fin authority decreases exponentially. That's a bad combination!

[VeeAny]

212man

The most interesting bit of that whole document I think for those who don't have time to read it all is

Section 7 Emergency procedures and advice

GS

[malabo]

I don't think what we simulate in training by jamming a pedal is exactly what happens when the tail rotor comes off or stops. The spinning disk will still provide some "keel" or effective fin area. What you do in training is try to impart the correct reaction on the pilots so that they have some idea what to do. Let's face it, in your career as a helicopter pilot you will likely face a loss of tailrotor situation, maybe several times - nothing to die over.

Just like in an auto landing when the blades suddenly lose all lift when the NR gets below that magic number you can get an idea of the same for loss of tail rotor. Fly along at 60-80 knots and slowly push in full pedal (in the direction of the main rotor rotation) to approximate zero thrust. When you are at the stop, start slowing down keeping level. At that magic airspeed the tail finally lets go and starts to whip around in a spin. To finish off the exercise we used to let it spin a couple of times and then chop the throttle and auto to the ground without ever moving the pedal off the stop, but you needed some altitude to get it to work out

[nigelh]

Sounds like BS to me . I dont think most pilots will have loads of t/r failures . I dont think the "spinning disc " gives any help . I dont think you put in a full boot of pedal to simulate a failure ...and i dont think you keep it in while the heli is spinning . Good story all the same :D Hey , all you newbies out there in your 22,s ....go give it a shot just like he says ...it,ll be fine ..promise :E

[Non-PC Plod]

Its easy to make a TR drive fail sound easy to cope with. The reality in my experience of teaching it in the simulator, is that when the (experienced) pilots are fully briefed and expecting it, THE MAJORITY CRASH ON THE FIRST PRACTICE.
Every aircraft behaves differently, depending on tail fin effectiveness etc, but when you bleed the airspeed off just a bit too much, pulling just a bit too much lever, it will suddenly start to spin. In the types I teach, once they are spinning, its a lucky man who gets control back again. If you havent got much altitude, you've got no hope.
I'm with you 212man & nigelh!

[birrddog]

Reading some of the posts here, as well as a my own thoughts on the matter, it seems easy to confuse actions for where tail rotor control is lost or limited, e.g. stuck pedal or broken linkages, with loss of tail rotor.

Two very events with two different sets of actions.

I remember seeing Blackhawk down the first time and naively questioned why the pilots did not pull pitch and fly off to have his accident somewhere more conducive to come out alive.

As much as we discuss course of action here, it would be helpful to discuss identification and detection if the situation is a result or Tail Rotor Failure.

Misdiagnosing, can have fatal consequences.

Gordy, would you mind elaborating on how you setup the scenario in your training?

In the training I have had, the instruction was on stuck pedal scenarios, the loss of tail rotor was all verbal instruction to enter into an auto, don't waste time.

[VeeAny]

Birddog

What has LTE got to do with a stuck pedals ?

LTE is an aerodynamic problem.

Tail rotor malfunctions are generally categorised as control problems, drive failure or loss of components (like gearboxes). Each has its own set of problems and none of them are LTE.

Don't mean to sound rude but there is a lot of misunderstanding about all things helicopter related and adding somemore doesn't help, I think the discussion about this accident will hopfully serve to educate everyone of us.

[birrddog]

VeeAny, I guess I am a perfect example of some of the lack of knowledge being written about here, and getting myself confused through poor articulation, and speaking before I think.

The just of my question, between stuck pedal and loss of tail rotor remains though.

Edited to add: At least with the opportunity to be caught with my foot in my mouth on the ground, gives me an opportunity to be corrected so the same does not happen in the air!

[Helinut]

Accepting Veeany's observation, I think you are right birddog to draw attention to the need for a clear understanding of the different TR failure modes. I suggest anyone needs to spend some time thinking about those different modes in whatever type they fly to try and establish the likely symptoms. They can be described in different ways, but do usually boil down to soemthing like:

- Loss of thrust
- Loss of component (plus loss of thrust?)
- stuck pedal (different sorts)

One of the things that I recall is the suggestion that in some TR failures (stuck pedal) you can afford to take your time and experiment, whilst in other cases there may be a very limited time available to sort the thing out (loss of component).

[Landroger]

May I ask a complete bystander question please? I have always loved helicopters, both for their fascinating engineering and for way a flying machine can do such extraordinary things. However, as an engineer (non aero) I have always seen the Tail rotor as the weak link and viewed the NOTAR concept as the future for helicopters.

Obviously it only works for turbine helos and, so far, only on small to moderate sized airframes. Is there any reason why large, multi engine helos do not use it and what other disadvantages are there to NOTAR?

Roger.

[Hover Bovver]

From what you have said " it only works on turbines" I think you may be under the misconception that a NOTAR is driven by exhaust gas - it isnt and would work with any engine type (in theory) , as basically it is ashrouded fan driven just like any tail rotor , from the main gearbox . it does have a tail rotor of sorts, :) its just hidden in the tail boom , it also use the vertical fins as rudders in fwd flight and coanda effect in the hover from slits along the tail boom , it also has a rotating bucket at the end of the tailboom to direct air from the boom for direction control in the hover.

They also make a twin , the MD900 or 902

[Landroger]

From what you have said " it only works on turbines" I think you may be under the misconception that a NOTAR is driven by exhaust gas ..........

I think you might be right HB - thanks. :ok: I had thought it utilised turbine exhaust and the elegance of such a solution always appealed. I take it then, that unlike a 'straight through turbojet' or even a fan jet, where a lot of energy is taken out of core engine ehaust to drive the fan, that helo turbine waste gas is too 'soft' to provide torque counter reaction?

I was aware that there were other elements to NOTAR - even the 'laminar flow' effect around the tube - but not to the extent you suggest. Does this mean that for all its external simplicity, NOTAR is complicated internally and thus provides less of the benefit I imagined? As I mentioned, the engineer in me always regarded the TR as a temporary fix to an inevitable problem and a terribly fragile one at that. Sadly, Youtube is full of very distressing images of perfectly servicable helicopters, changing suddenly into terrifying, uncontrollable collections of large masses trying to resolve implacable forces.

The concept of a counter to torque reaction that would 'fail safe' - in that it can only fail if the engine/s stop, in which case the need for it is reduced (okay, I'm going to get jumped on for that:hmm:) - is a highly desirable one. I had thought NOTAR was it. :sad:

Roger.

[FH1100 Pilot]

Landroger:I take it then, that unlike a 'straight through turbojet' or even a fan jet, where a lot of energy is taken out of core engine ehaust to drive the fan, that helo turbine waste gas is too 'soft' to provide torque counter reaction?

Landroger, the problem is that most of the helo turbine "waste" gas already goes to driving a fan- a big fan- the one on top of the helicopter (or, in the case of an airplane, the propellor). That's how turboshaft engines work.

I was aware that there were other elements to NOTAR - even the 'laminar flow' effect around the tube - but not to the extent you suggest. Does this mean that for all its external simplicity, NOTAR is complicated internally and thus provides less of the benefit I imagined?

The NOTAR is *no* less complicated than a conventional tail rotor, and maybe even more so since, if I'm not mistaken, the pedals have to not only control the bucket at the end of the tailboom but at least one of the vertical fins as well in some models. I believe at least one NOTAR ship has already been lost to a failure of this cable system.

The NOTAR is quieter than a conventional tail rotor, and "safer" in that there is no fragile, vertical prop out back that can run into things (and have people run into it).

[nodrama]

Roger,

the Kamov and the Chinook are other types of 'tail-rotorless' helicopter, with counter-rotating main rotors.....also the fenestron or shrouded type tail rotor that doesn't do alot with regards to anti-torque at higher forward aircraft speeds.

[AnFI]

Malabo said: "............. To finish off the exercise we used to let it spin a couple of times and then chop the throttle and auto to the ground without ever moving the pedal off the stop, but you needed some altitude to get it to work out"

Maybe that proceedure should be checked.... ? Putting the lever down ia enough to stop the spin and enter autorotation - closing the throttle is a bit brutal and jeorardises RRPM . I guess you were thinking in terms of closing the throttle and lowering the lever shortly thereafter - but there is a huge danger - which I have seen often - that the throttle gets closed to eliminate the torque but the RRPM is left to decay - leading to a very heavy landing (maybe a hint of that in this accident) . !Caution!

[malabo]

AnFI,

Correct, the collective has to be lowered very soon after the throttle chop. Throttle chop stops the yaw very quickly, lowering the collective not so quick. This is experienced advanced instructor technique using something with blade inertia better than an R22, so not something you'd expect at a Florida pilot sausage factory.

The point (and my original point) was that the thread was erroneously drifting into stuck pedal or fixed-pitch training techniques. This incident was a loss of tailrotor thrust requiring different training techniques to prepare the pilot. Pretty sad to see that neither fixed-pitch nor loss of tailrotor thrust is widely taught in the rest of the world.

Maybe just a Canadian thing because of all the confined area work here risking a tailrotor strike, or flying external loads with the risk of something coming up and taking the tailrotor out.

Some poster said any tailrotor problem was unlikely in a career. Flying only from the middle of a runway, and no exteral loads, I'd say the risk is much lower but still there as witnessed by the incident in this thread.

[AnFI]

10chractrs

[212man]

Some poster said any tailrotor problem was unlikely in a career. Flying only from the middle of a runway, and no exteral loads, I'd say the risk is much lower but still there as witnessed by the incident in this thread.

correct, and sadly the real ramifications are poorly understood amongst many. I clearly recall talking to the handling pilot of the BHL AS332 that lost it's tail rotor following a lightning strike (G-TIGK) after the event and even in the cruise it was not recoverable, even ramming the collective through the floor, without the throttles being chopped. I think the expression "hanging in our straps looking at the sea (rotating in 3 axes) thinking this is it" was how it was explained. Other crews have talked of losing their headsets (I know- awfully careless!) in the ensuing gyrations.

Anyone who thinks it's a benign event to deal with is a fool who had no place flying pax in a helicopter!

[SASless]

My only experience with a tail rotor failure was as a passenger riding in the left front seat of a UH-1D Huey on a Battalion Admin flight to Saigon Hotel 3 helipad at Tan So Nhut AFB. I was merely hitching a ride for a short business trip to Saigon ( I am not at liberty to discuss what kind of business).

At the time I was a Chinook pilot assigned to the Battalion and had been qualified in the Huey during Flight School leading to my being dubbed an Army Helicopter Pilot.

We departed our base, bled just a bit of MR rpm but no problems, flew five miles to a second base.....picked up some fuel and a couple of SLF....and bled a bit of RPM on takeoff....still no problem. One might consider the earlier D Model Hueys were not known to be power houses with rotors...and as they aged and became assigned to duties such as the Battalion Log bird....they had some wear and tear on them. It was not unusual in operations to fly them down to just above LTE which was around 5800-6000 RPM N2. They had both a Low RPM warning light and a warning audio to warn the pilot. The light came on first....then at a lower RPM the Audio sounded.

We flew to Saigon....about twenty minutes away....and our stalwart pilot whose main duty was being the Battalion Mess Officer due to his piloting abilities falling a bit short of that required for use in operations....made his steep approach to a hover at the landing pad. Mind you the landing site was fairly confined on the surface but had no real obstacles demanding anything but a normal landing. Needless to say....operational pilots always landed to the ground when presented with a limited power landing to a nice flat concrete surface.

My Hero did not.

He stopped at a hover and several things happened at once....the first being me thinking "What is this guy doing?" I immediately thought he was confused as to where to park....and I began to point towards the transient parking to our left.

He turned right.

Wondering if he knew something I didn't....I suggested over the intercom the parking was now behind us. He kept turning right....and I figured he was just going to go the long way around and hover over to the parking pad. He didn't stop turning. All this was at or below standard rate of turn for such maneuvering.

I thought he saw a parking spot to the right of the aircraft.....he had not.

About this time....I noticed the left pedal was extended all the way forward and he appeared to be a bit tense looking and seemed a bit lost for something to say. The rate of turn began to build...and we passed by the parking pad direction at a fair old clip. I told him to cut the throttle as it plainly appeared to me that was the only cure for the situation extant.

He did not.

While looking at him...I noticed a bright red light on the panel....where the Main Rotor RPM light was on at about 1000 watts....a sly glance at the Rotor Tach confirmed the warning light was doing it's thing....we were at about 5700 RPM instead of the 6600 that was normal (N2 RPM).

Ah...I thought....this is not as it should be.

Not being astronaut material it still seemed I was correct in my advice....and again told him to chop the throttle....which he did not do....but now was eyes fixed firmly straight out front of the helicopter looking at the world revolve around him like his name was Sol.

Sol is not the name I would have called him as he definitely was not the brightest thing in the Sky.

We passed....or the parking pad passed us....depending upon how you wished to look at...but this time the rate of rotation was such that my aviator Raybans felt like they were going depart for foreign shores and I was rapidly increasing in weight. The world was becoming a blur!

I chopped the throttle....probably I could have told the Mess Officer about it ahead of time but I felt he might just figure it out for himself and if he didn't nothing worse could happen than was already coming our way.

He didn't figure it out on his own....but good Army training never fails one in time of need.

Magically, the rate of rotation steadied, slowed, and we found old Mother Earth and the H-3 landing pad. We slewed to a stop, made an instant low-low skid mod on one side. When I got my legs to quit wobbling...I thanked the Mess Officer for the great ride....un-plugged my Helmet....grabbed my Ditty Bag and departed for Saigon leaving the Mess Officer to deal with the Army since I was only a passenger on the flight.

Long story....but even though it was only a loss of Rotor RPM....and thus loss of Tail Rotor Thrust aggravated by trying to hover when over weight for the power of the aircraft....the forces that can be generated are hard to imagine. As the size of the aircraft grows so do the magnitude of forces. If one adds in the loss of tail rotor components and the resulting CG shift and aerodynamic forces....these events can very well be catastrophic.

Simulators can approximate some of the effects but not duplicate them....in flight practice cannot. Stuck pedal or loss of thrust maybe....but not loss of components.

I think the key is to use the Sim and Flight training to describe as best possible the initial reactions of the aircraft to educate the pilot for what to be able to react to when it happens.

To steal a motto...."Who dares....wins!" Very timely reaction to a tail rotor failure will help mitigate the situation but that requires being able to assess what is going on and then reacting properly. As Torque is the problem....reducing Torque is the best way to start. Lowering the collective all the way to the very bottom if possible is step one in the process followed by the Engine(s) next. (In my opinion.) After that I guess one plays the cards dealt to you.

[Gordy]

Maybe someone can learn from my experience back in 2001---I may have posted this already on another thread....I no longer work for this company and have since recieved training.

I had a stuck pedal in a B2 Astar on a tour with six passengers on board. I first realized the problem coming out of an out of ground effect hover. To this day I still get confused as to whether you call it stuck left or right---basically I had about an inch and a half of left forward pedal, and was not able to push right pedal. I had the non power pedal forward. Ultimately we found the flexible ball control cable had frayed inside the plastic sheath. So as I pushed left pedal, the cable would slide freely inside the sheath, when I pushed right --- the frayed cable dug into the sheath and would not slide. Biggest thing to remember—FLY THE AIRCRAFT.

I elected to fly back to the nearest airport with crash rescue facilities----not pessimistic, just stacking the odds in my favor, plus it gave me 30 minutes of transit time to figure it out in my head. Unfortunately for me---I used to switch between a 206 and an Astar frequently---the previous flight less than an hour prior to this was in the Bell---hence I do not like to say stuck left/right but try to think of it as power and non power pedal. Also, the company I worked for did NOT provide factory training, I had never done this procedure in the aircraft---read about it once--- and in fact my annual Astar training consisted of 30 minutes flying with the owner, who flew on average about 30 hours a year. (Welcome to Hawaii !---although to be fair---there are some decent operators out there). I told my passengers everything, (was later chastised by the owner---should have kept my mouth shut---I no longer fly in Hawaii ! !), I felt they were entitled to know what was going on.

For better or worse, I elected to attempt a shallow approach to a run on landing. I had enough fuel for about an hour, so I was in no rush. The wind sock was spinning on the pole, so therefore no wind. I picked the longest runway---as the speed approached about 20 kts, the aircraft started slowly spinning left, and I did a go around without pulling power till I got some more airspeed and chose a different runway.

This attempt, same thing, another go around---did not pull power till I got some speed. I was starting to think that if this next attempt did not work---I would cut the engine and do an auto.

This time the aircraft started spinning faster, my gut reaction was to go around, but I started pulling power----WRONG, this increased the spin violently, instinct, gut reaction, luck and the voice in my head said CUT POWER----which I half did. I got the FFCL out of the flight gate and about half way back to idle, the earth had stop spinning and I was about 10 feet up, drifting slowly forward and descending slowly, with 3 fire trucks about 100 feet in front of me. I let the aircraft settle to the ground, shut it down, and realized that adrenalin is really brown!!!!!!!

I personally was not happy the way it turned out---I felt I should have nailed it on the first attempt, I should NOT have let the aircraft spin, but I am somewhat of a perfectionist, and I need to live with that. That being said, No damage to the aircraft, one passenger had passed out and was given medical attention on scene, the rest were all fine, I spilled my coffee on the runway and had to beg a soda from one of the firefighters!!!!

What did I learn?
1. FLY THE AIRCRAFT.
2. As stated above do not refer to this as stuck left/right, it gets too confusing when switching aircraft types.
3. Take your time; make as many approaches as needed.
4. No matter what anyone says—there is no text book way to do it.
5. I did not do the “text book” procedure—but it worked.
6. If you all walk away from it---you did good, learn and move on.

One more side note; The company did not initially refund the passengers their money until a few months later one of them asked for a copy of the NTSB report we filed as it came under NTSB 830.5 (a) (1) ----guess what---company did not file one, make sure one gets filed---you could be liable if not.

[Flyting]

One of the reasons I became an instructor, after flying the first 1000 hours of my license... I got to hone those emergeny skills with tons of demonstrating practice.
1. FLY THE AIRCRAFT.
2. As stated above do not refer to this as stuck left/right, it gets too confusing when switching aircraft types.
3. Take your time; make as many approaches as needed.
4. No matter what anyone says—there is no text book way to do it.

good advice Gordy
and I like this one from SASless...

Ass, Tin, Ticket.... in that order. Save your own Ass, Save the helicopter, and worry about the license after doing the first two.

[MightyGem]

Life is not always doom and gloom after a drive shaft failure. Not a good quality video, but you can see that the tail rotor is stationary.

z3oVw6_0MEU"]

Sorry, couldn't get the embed widget to work.

[Droopy]

But remember the pilot's crew landing brief which reflected his anticipation of the arrival - "This is going to hurt"......and we all know he did an exceptional job.

[VeeAny]

And as an illustration of how quickly it can all go horribly wrong in a machine with much less torque although a smaller MMI and less stab area and a shorter tail boom than a 355.

For illustration only.
TRDJ9oyjcMc

Edited to add this was obviously self induced and only posted to illustrate how fast the helicopter can spin after the failure.

[AnFI]

... must be you Mighty Gem:D - being modest? (though it was good of the helicopter to hold together - eh?)
... more examples required... (whose going to post the Thai SAR Dauphin 'demonstration'?:rolleyes:)

[FH1100 Pilot]

Look, I'm not the best pilot on the planet, but I can say for damn sure that I can do a better autorotation than a high-speed, run-on, maybe crooked landing. Watch the impact of that Twin Squirrel and tell me you're not thinking, "Whew, that was CLOSE!" Close to tragedy, that is.

No tail rotor? Just auto. That's what they tell us to do: Land without torque. Is there an RFM that recommends otherwise? Why experiment with the unknown and unproven?

Get as high as you can while cruising to the AIRPORT you're going to land at. If you're in a twin, pull one back to idle as you're doing that (you don't need all that torque anyway). When you're over the field, enter a flat-pitch approach into the wind and pull the other one to idle. Stop-cock them on the way down. Flare, level, cushion, done. Aren't we taught to do this? I mean, aren't we taught to do this more than we're taught to be test pilots?

I've been blessed with two, yes TWO tail rotor failures, both with PHI. Both happened because mechanics didn't tighten stuff up properly during maintenance and the bits came undone later when it was just me and the machine. The first happened just after landing on an offshore oil platform. Horrible noise just after putting the pitch down. Thomas coupling had come apart. Thank the Lord it didn't happen 30 seconds earlier.

Second one happened just after liftoff to a hover on an oil platform. Bang! My left foot went to the floor and then the world spun sideways so fast I couldn't really believe it. Whoa-Nelly! To this day I am astonished at how fast the rotation was, and how you get thrown sideways and don't anticipate that part. Chopped the throttle and did a hovering auto back to the deck. Afterward, I was complaining, err...mentioning to one of our IP's at headquarters that chopping the throttle did not stop the spin. And he goes, "Why didn't you just go straight to cut-off?" Oops. Yeah, that might have worked....maybe...kinda...dammit.

Last year, the 206 Recurrent pilot I flew with spent almost the entire dang session doing tail rotor problems - stuck-left, stuck-right, stuck-right again and again and again - until I was thoroughly wore-slap-out. It, combined with my previous experience reinforced my opinion that with no tail rotor thrust, these things spin FAST if you pull any torque without sufficient airspeed. (And in Recurrent, for our stuck-rights we didn't even put the pedal to the floor - only far enough down to simulate it getting stuck during a low-power approach. And that was bad enough!)

No tail rotor? I'm autorotating, baby. I can do that. They don't pay me enough to be a test pilot.

[212man]

FH1100, you don't get it do you. What you do is just fly to the nearest airport - didn't you read the previous posts? It's easy, what's the problem?

God it's scary what people out there think!

PS. Just seen your vid mighty gem - nice job sir!

[FH1100 Pilot]

212man, guess you better re-enroll in that anger management class.

I've reall ALL of the previous posts. I believe the Twinstar in Mighty Gem's post was flown, um, to an airport? At least, that's what it looks like with that Piper Cherokee sitting there.

The Astar that is the result of this thread had an airport within three miles of him, and two other airports within five miles of him - and he flew around for five minutes (so he obviously had it more or less under control). But he elected to *not* go to an airport, and look how that worked out!

So tell me, your highness: What *DON'T* I "get?"

[heli-cal]

I think he may have been joking...

[MightyGem]

must be you Mighty Gem
No, not me. It was the boss.

[topendtorque]

Having experienced total and sudden T/R drive shaft failure from the nil airspeed, vertical climbing power (almost full throttle) configuration I was able use that little scare to rectify or confirm some of my previous assumptions.
· The rotation acceleration was so fast with power on that on the second rotation I believed that I would lose spatial orientation if I didn’t chop the throttle “right now”, ol’ son and collective down quick.
· The rotational spin does not STOP because of that, it merely slows down and as I chopped the throttle at sixty feet it was still spinning reasonably fast on touchdown which, as it was a 3B1 only just bent the cross-tubes a little.
· I was never taught the procedure at ab initio except that it was ‘explained’ to me that one would have to first chop the throttle to stop the spin, then because the power is off, lower the collective and thus enter autorotation, or hold the collective and settle on, dependent upon height.
· In my case I intuitively wished to fly away, with collective down as far as possible and power still on. I grasped in a flash that I would need far more than the thirty feet of airspace which was all I had above the canopy to do that. With height available and ugly terrain underneath me I would try to fly it out, but land as soon as possible. Simple logic.
Yes it easy to control the direction on a running landing with twist grip throttle. It is also easy and safer, to take the training a bit further and experience touchdown at almost zero airspeed. First though establish that there is no vibration from the rear end and that the T/R G ‘box looks secure, then fly as far as you need to have landing assistance.
After my incident quite a long time ago, I very quickly started practising, then teaching recovery from T/R failure, in the hover at skid height, and then later hovering at 1500 feet to go into full auto. Also a normal landing from airspeed
For WIW here is the technique in précis. I first talk about the descent profile. Why? Because it is an exercise in arriving at nothing with nothing, no A/S, no ROD,no Power, Simple, think about it.
Use a whiteboard to draw some ideas of your descent path and what you would do at various points.
With the twist grip first practice playing with torque in the cruise. Torque is a product of RPM and MAP or Power applied. Disengage the governor, roll the throttle on and off with collective maintained, see the A/C yaw with RPM fluctuating. Do it reasonably firmly for best effect otherwise the RPM just decays and little yaw is experienced.
Setting the RPM on final run in is important. A higher RPM will allow use of more torque effect when rolling off the throttle. Don’t wind it on just before finals to give you the higher RPM, that will give you more yaw that you then have to get rid of. Have it set a ways back, a bit over the red line. Hold it there as you manipulate the collective.
Setting up the descent is difficult and it usually means two or three goes to get it right if you are not current, so don’t feel bad about that. Too low and you will need excessive power to hold off. Too steep and you will need excess power to stop the high ROD, too fast and you will need excessive flare to wash of the A/S., and then excess power to stop the sudden loss of lift, all of which are agents of yaw.
Practice slowing it right down until the aircraft is travelling at about eight knots G/S with a quartering headwind onto the yawed out Tail boom, left or right dependent upon rotor rotation. Even a slow crosswind is acceptable.
Another gentle flare, roll of the throttle sweetly and fully, remember to hold the collective still at this point at about a foot skid height, the A/C will come nicely straight, speed washing right of and hold off for a smooth touchdown. It takes quite a bit of practice.
On a remote throttle without skilled help to roll it off I would cut the engine at height and enter autorotation. However as I have said before as have others, surely one can practice wedging the collective with the knee and then flicking off the remote throttle. After all in a turbine the ‘spool down’ is a lot slower than a recip, and therefore more forgiving with time to get the collective down.
Those higher T/R failure practices were good for pulling the smart a**e attitude out of those who grew cocky at the usual 1200 hour mark. Harness tight, loose articles nil, etc, very high R of D for some three hundred feet and more before spinning stopped a bit later. I always controlled the T/R at touchdown for obvious reasons
I remember many moons ago? There was a video around, or news clip, of the OZ navy doing practice T/R failure from the hover. The check pilot called the exercise, ‘commencing now’ and at the same time had his (from memory) hand on the roof mounted throttle (OZ navy squirrels), and pulled it at the checked pilot’s call. Then of course they just settled with a normal slightly spinning touchdown. Of course the throttle was pulled at - straight after the first quarter turn, well before any rotational speed had built up. Our exercises from the hover, we do the same, I.E. Expect the checked pilot to quickly react, and it is a good demonstration exercise.
I agree strongly with Malibo, at the operational level where close hazards are the norm, then the AOC holder should be able to demonstrate his ‘duty of care’ by outlining how their organisation prepares pilots for the advent and most importantly normal evasion of a strike. We get them to put that tail UP, UP every time. Something the poor fellow in Qld recently has not been taught IMHO.
cheers tet

[212man]

212man, guess you better re-enroll in that anger management class.

Ok, after you enrol in the "how to spot faceitious posts" course :ok:

I was contrasting your sensible input with the nonsense that some posters felt necessary to propose early on in the thread (about how eay it all is)

[Hedge36]

An interesting stuck pedal landing (never mind the embedded commentary):

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[EN48]

Woud like some advice on training for TRF (loss of thrust and stuck pedal) in the B407. I am transitioning to the 407 and after reading this thread over the weekend, sent it to my instructor, and we had a long discussion today followed by some flying. We didnt try anything extreme as this was my first go at TRF's in the 407. Shortly after beginning a takeoff, I was instructed to put my feet on the floor and fly the pattern and land without using the pedals. Not pretty, but not terrible. Then, from cruise, instructor set approximate zero TR thrust on the pedals and had me fly an approach and land with feet on the floor - again, not pretty, but doable. He is not about to get the acft spinning on purpose, and that's fits well with my view of the world. So, how helpful is this kind of training likely to be, and what additional useful training maneuvers are feasible in the acft without undue risk?

I note that there are no TRF related accidents for the B407 on the NTSB website except where the pilot struck something with the TR which induced failure. Perhaps this type has a lower frequency of TRF's than some others.

[BlenderPilot]

I can think of at least 5 different videos where you can see AS350's crashing into the ground due to tail rotor failures that ocurred in flight without hitting anything with the spinning rotor.

But never seen a Bell do that on video thou . . . some weird coincidence? or could it be that AS350's are more likely to have this type of failure?

[SASless]

It would appear to this old git.....there has been a drift towards some manufactuers teaching a high speed run on landing for certain tail rotor failures. (BK-117's springs to mind) and a certain operator I worked for adopted that mind set as etched in stone. Their position was the builder knows more than the operator....and thus we must comply with their dictates.

Now visualize this situation....night, on NVG's, no pedal control, landing on a very long and reasonably wide kinda smooth runway....maybe with a bit of cross wind. As in simulations (TC blocking pedals in the factory recommended position) touch down speed about 90 knots trying to keep the wee bird on the runway.

When I opined how incredibly stupid this was....I incurred the wrath of the unclean speaking heresy. I suggestedI I did not care to waste valuable training time on this method but instead why not just go do some autorotations instead. When asked about that ....I said because if we ever have that kind of failure....I was sure gonna shut off both engines and hold the fecking power levers in the shut off position....and we would be autorotating to the ground.

I submit arriving at the ground in autorotation, engines shut off, fuell shut off, with zero or near zero ground speed...even if you cock it up and roll the machine over...at least the rotors will stop in a hurry and not be driven by the engines.

Compare that to running off the runway at full chat at some airplane like groundspeed......huh uh...not me!

[birrddog]

SAS, perhaps I could ask you to answer the question I posed earlier, about detecting an event like loss of tail rotor control (e.g. stuck pedal), vs. tail rotor failure.

I would think we could all agree that tail rotor failure means enter auto immediately(?).

I am trying to understand situations we would be better off detecting and that where flying off to a suitable landing site for a run-on landing would be a preferred course of action.

[mickjoebill]

For the sake of discussion of related point, if we assume the pilot was thinking that he was in control in the initial phase of the emergency, could the US$450,000 HD camera payload, hanging low on the nose of this aircraft have had an influence on the choice of what type of emergency landing procedure he conducted?




Mickjoebill

[chopjock]

I would think we could all agree that tail rotor failure means enter auto immediately(?).

I am trying to understand situations we would be better off detecting and that where flying off to a suitable landing site for a run-on landing would be a preferred course of action.If a tail rotor failure occurred over water, or at night and the aircraft still remained flyable, I would rather keep the airspeed up and wait until I coasted in.:)

[EN48]

I would think we could all agree that tail rotor failure means enter auto immediately(?).


If the helicopter is under control and expected to remain that way, why wouldn't one attempt to fly to the most favorable LZ possible?

If spinning, then a different story.

Ass, tin, ticket - such wisdom in so few words!

[SASless]

I hate absolutes and etched in stone procedures as they may not fit all cases always.

If the aircraft is controllable and is holding together.....one does have time to think things through before launching off down that preset notion.

If I am over really ugly terrain, or at night, perhaps over water that could chill a miser's heart....and...operative word is "and" I have control of the aircraft to the degree I can aviate, navigate, and perhaps communicate.....why not go for a better option than extant at the time and place of the tail rotor failing.

Being of the Vietnam War Era US Army helicopter group....perhaps I do not see Tail Rotor failures in the same light as some of you. We had a lot of exposure to those and learned much from the guys that were successful in coping with them. That knowledge has been passed along and when combined with a hand throttle control of the engines makes for a way of coping with some failures. With the advent of larger aircraft and the shift to "levers" and other means of controlling engines....the concept does not transfer straight across.

There is a world of difference between a Loss of Tail Rotor and Components than mere control problems. Techniques for the two are much different as a result.

For a Loss of Tail Rotor drive, loss of Tail Rotor and/or components....I think the first reaction is to lower the collective...which usually is never a bad thing to do in a helicopter that has decided to take a walk on the wild side. Recognizing the problem should be fairly straight forward if half your feet are stuck out as far as it will go and there is no response to that input. If moving the pedals gets no response....then one can surmise it isn't working or isn't there. If the nose of the aircraft got heavy at the same time....then it probably is due to the Tail Rotor and some associated bits have departed for other places.

Helicopters roll along with a tuck when large amounts of slide slip are caused by the out of trim situation....that is generally the main danger in forward flight at about cruise speeds. Minimizing the side slip will assist in controlling that. Knowing how your aircraft responds to collective movement ahead of time helps in determining what to do. I see minimum power to maintain height as being the optimum power setting and then adjust airspeed to find the minimum slide slip angle.

Depending upon the collective setting.....flight may be possible....if not then it is time for an autorotation.

If the aircraft is spinning or about to.... away from the power pedal....(trying to make this ambidextrous for the wrong way turning machines)...reducing collective is the only immediate answer perhaps followed by engine(s) shutdown...and it should probably all the way to the bottom and fairly quicktime. The height of the aircraft above the ground will play a role in deciding just how the collective/throttle(s) should be reduced or shut off.

My rule is simple.... In general....too much anti-torque...equals an up day.
Too little anti-torque....means a down day.

You can find ways to reduce Tail Rotor output.....but you cannot create any that isn't there.

If you read up on the Bell 412 in the Gulf of Mexico that had a Loss of Tail Rotor at night....you will quickly realize it was a catastophic event with an immediate loss of control of the aircraft. I will try to find the report and some other information on that and share it. The pilots did a great job getting the aircraft down. If my memory serves me right....the Captain had survived being shot down by a SAM-7 Heat Seeking missile in Vietnam. The Cobra he was flying lost the entire tail boom and spun like a top all the way down but both pilots survived.

All this is just one man's opinion.

[Mr_G_Box]

Hi, The video showing the 355 'arriving' at Liverpool Jan 2003, posted by Mighty Gem is down to me. As with a previous post, Gordy, I'll briefly run through what I did so that it gives others another a possible option should they end up in that position.
Police Ops, Pilot, 2 Police Observers and radio engineer. I had been flying for about 55 minutes when the aircraft developed a odd vibration, which was quite quickly followed by a large bang, which was the engine cowling coming off (almost certainly down to me :( ) and striking the tail rotor it transpired. I immediately reduced power and reduced speed, there were no obvious signs of problem looking at the engine instruments, but the yaw pedals were very light and gave no control. I increased power and levelled the aircraft and settled for a speed of about 80/85 knots (I think. long time ago, but the front seat observer on the day, who still flies with me, agrees), with the nose off a little to the left. After the Mayday, I elected to go back to Liverpool airport which was only 3 nm away. I elected not to attempt a formal engine off landing, as it was a couple of years since I'd done one and I never done one in a Squirrel. (previous job was teaching at Army Air Corps Centre for three years, Gazelle and Lynx, so my EOL's weren't that bad). I suspected a drive shaft failure, so I discussed with the Police Officers what I intended to do, and they were happy with the plan. The fly by of the Tower confirmed that the tail rotor was not turning. So I shut down number 2 engine and briefed the front seat Observer to close down the other engine on my command. He was briefed to pull the roof throttle straight back, and don't mess about. We positioned on long finals to 27 at Liverpool with a shallow approach, intially aimed at the grass to the north of the runway,only a light wind unfortunately. ( Droopy, the full brief on short finals was " Sorry boys, this is gonna hurt") When the aircraft reached about 40/50 feet and 30-ish knots, the nose started to yaw left quickly. I said "now", the engine was snapped shut and the yaw stopped. The yaw was probably only 30 degrees to the left but left us facing the runway. I then basicially carried out a poor engine off landing to the runway (you've seen the video). Would I do it differently now, the basics, no. Hold the speed on a bit longer and a much lower, but overall the same. I had had the luxury of playing with tail rotor malfunctions/ failures in the Lynx simulator in my present job, so it gave me a few other ideas to consider rather than follow the book.
Not every 'event is the same, so the flight manual can only give guidance, the rest is what we are paid for. Making the final decision.. unfortunately it doesn't always turn out OK. It was was rathering chilling to watch the Sao Paulo video thinking that that was a possible outcome of my flight some twenty years ago.
My thoughts are with the pilots family.

[MightyGem]

And there was me thinking you were a lurker.

[HeliStudent]

Just finished reading this thread and more concerned now than ever before about tail rotor failures!

Some very good information and comments throughout the thread especially from FH100 Pilot, Sir Niall Dementia, SASless, topendtorque and others.

The personal experiences of Gordy and Mr G Box were also very informative.

Most of the video links for the first page are no longer working so here is one that still works,

helicopter crash live in sao paulo Brazil - YouTube

Just two questions really -

1. Are the Squirrel helicopters more likely to get a tail rotor failure than other types as one person was suggesting?

2. Are private and professional pilots taught the different types of tail rotor failure like the stuck pedal, loss of gearbox, driveshaft failure - on a yearly basis?