No medals for MPs

[Halfwayback]

Rarely does anything make my blood boil but this one does the trick!

MPs get a campaign medal immediately they visit an area of operations - without any minimum time in theatre! Whilst there they are rarely, if ever, exposed to any real danger. It is laudable that they should go and talk with the troops and get an insight to what is actually happening but it should stop there.

On the other hand those engaged in the fighting have to serve a period - six months I am given to believe - before qualifying and then have to wait a few months more for it to be given.

It is time to stop this belittling of a token of active service. Please sign the Petition at Petition to: Stop degrading our soldiers by handing out medals to MP's. | Number10.gov.uk (http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/notompmedals/)

Cheers

HWB

[SRENNAPS]

Petition signed.

[Tankertrashnav]

HWB - Are you sure about this, or is this something else you have been "given to believe"?

The qualification period for the Operation Service Medal for Afghanistan is not six months, but varies, with 30 days continuous service being the usual length of time in most cases. Service curtailed by injury or death counts for the medal.

Waiting a few months for a campaign medal is hardly worthy of comment - the issue of WW1 and WW2 campaign medals did not start until several years after the end of hostilities in both cases.

All that said, I agree that MPs shouldn't be getting a medal for flying in for a quick photo opportunity, if indeed that is happening.

[foldingwings]

Done (and forwarded to all my mates!):ok:

[teeteringhead]

Was a thread on this recently IIRC. Seems they're not the real medal but a "commemorative" one, like the National Service/Cold War whatever ones you can buy from the back pages of Air Mail.

Real campaign medals are strictly controlled by BP, hence our not being able to wear the occasional bit of foreign tat on uniform.....

I may be wrong - if I am, it's unbelievably insensitive - do you have a reference halfwayback?

[Army Mover]

I seem to recall a story about a working party of MP's, sponsored by the defence industry, who turn up in uniform (wearing badges of rank etc) and visit the locations as part of a fact finding group. I think the medal is awarded by their group, not by any military organisation.

[teeteringhead]

That's more or less what I thought Army Mover. I can (just about) live with the idea of HCDC getting Honorary ranks when visiting Ops - makes it easier if they're captured!:E

But then I did meet one using her rank in South Wales!! Tried to search for the thread I meant but couldn't find it - I think even Sir Jock presented the baubles in question......:*

[FlapJackMuncher]

Seems in this time of cost saving - why not cut the cost of so many fact finding missions and stop the issuing of these medals.
We in Cyprus get regular MP visitors - more during the summer months for some reason.

[Army Mover]

That's more or less what I thought Army Mover. I can (just about) live with the idea of HCDC getting Honorary ranks when visiting Ops - makes it easier if they're captured!Legitimate targets as well :E

[philrigger]

;)

I am sure you are correct on this - commemorative only!

halfwayback; If you want your own you can design it and have it made and set your own rules as to being awarded but just like them it cannot be worn in official uniform.

[Archimedes]

I think this is linked to a story in the Torygraph from a few weeks ago; it was covered in some depth over on t'Army means.

If it is the same story, then it refers to the members of the AFPS getting a commemorative badge; it may look like a medal by dint of having a ribbon.

It is not an OSM.

So if this petition is inspired by the Torygraph story, then it is based on a false premise and is utter horlicks.

It may be, though, that it is in part inspired by a chap who is leading the campaign for the award of a 'National Defence Medal' to those who have served but who were not in receipt of a GSM or similar because they did not go on operations. Remarkably, this effort towards the 'NDM' has succeeded in
annoying members of Arrse to the point where they sympathise with the MPs involved in AFPS - and getting members of Arrse to side with any MPs these days is one hell of an achievement!

[Halfwayback]

My reference for this is no more than the person who raised the petition for it to stop. Please read the additional information given at the link

I know little more than that but even a 'commemorative' one is one too many for me! It may mean little to those in the know but you can bet it will be rolled out in front of the masses by some MPs at the local Remembrance Sunday! Maybe I'm too cynical.....

TTNav
Thanks for setting the record straight regarding the qualifying period nowadays.

Archimedes
'Stacey' doesn't sound like 'a chap' - RTFR - Eureka!


HWB

[Chainkicker]

philrigger - You forgot the 'and no doubt put the cost on expenses' bit :rolleyes:

[Archimedes]

HWB - I had browsed the link to the petition (whose originator seems blissfully unaware of the Elizabeth Cross, by the way) before posting.

When referring to a 'chap' I was referencing the person - most definitely male - who is leading the NDM campaign and was suggesting that the petition may have been inspired by him or his comments to the press. There is a possibility that he has a further agenda, as he is running for election to parliament against a member of the AFPS and appears to see attacking the AFPS as a potential weapon in his bid to overturn a rather large majority against him.

But my point remains - the petition is calling upon people to protest against something which doesn't actually happen. MPs do not get awarded medals just for paying a visit to Afghanistan, or before that, Iraq.

[PPRuNe Pop]

It dengrates the medals that those in the thick of it have well and truly earned and there can be absolutely NO justification in giving a medal to an MP for just a visit. It stinks, it is wrong and it is sickening. On top of that just think what the guys and girls reckon to it - they deserve better than that.

My MP will get a call in the morning that's for sure.

[vecvechookattack]

Complex criteria govern the award of the OSM, with varying lengths of service required depending on the operation and location.

To qualify for award of the Medal with Clasp, personnel must have served in Afghanistan for either 5, 21 or 30 days continuous service between various dates depending on the operation, between 11 September 2001 – 1 August 2002 for Ops Jacana and Bandog, or to a date to be decided for Ops Veritas, Fingal and Landman.

Service of varying lengths depending on the operation on Ops Landman, Veritas, Oracle, Ramson or Damien in other Middle East countries during certain specific dates will qualify for the OSM for Afghanistan without clasp.

The OSM is a nice looking medal but I have to admit it looks a little silly with clasps. I've got 2 clasps on mine and it just doesn't seem right. In some respects its a bit of a cop out. Why not have separate campaign medals?

These MP's are not being awarded the OSM. They are being given a commemorative badge.

[Fat Chris]

Although I agree with the sentiment of the petition, the original post and that of PPrune Pop are incorrect and misinformed.

Vecvechookattack's post reads right to me. Shocking that Mods would post half-cocked rants, and more shocking that I am agreeing with VVHA!

[Dengue_Dude]

Recommend a new medal to be minted for MPs et al.

The DDM could reflect the value to our great country of our political masters.

It of course stands for the Distinguished Disservice Medal . . .

[dallas]

MPs criticised for accepting 'Mickey Mouse' medals - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/onthefrontline/7006304/MPs-criticised-for-accepting-Mickey-Mouse-medals.html)

Short summary: It's an Armed Forces Parliamentary Scheme (AFPS) medal awarded to MPs who have been involved - voluntarily - with HM Forces for 10+ years. Each year they must 'be involved' for at least 22 days a year, and to date only 10 have been awarded. They are commemorative and not military awards, and as such are worn on the right breast, if at all, but not intended for parades such as Remembrance Day.

Seems fairly pointless to me, but certainly quite different to the petition rant, even if MPs are all a slippery self-serving bunch of w@nkers.

[airborne_artist]

So MPs get a trinket for seeing the Armed Forces at work. I'd rather they see what goes on than stay at home choosing furniture to buy on expenses, so frankly I can't see the problem.

[parabellum]

hence our not being able to wear the occasional bit of foreign tat on uniform.....



Yes foreign Tat not allowed but awards for gallantry from foreign parts issued by approved countries may be worn. Chap on a course I did wore a French decoration around his neck in best gear and as a ribbon otherwise. That was then, rules may have changed!

My major bitch used to be 'honorary' wings! At an AAC pilots seminar in Paderbourne, many moons ago a general who had just been appointed Commandant AAC was awarded honorary wings which he wore for the rest of his military career, never flown any aircraft in his life!

[Saintsman]

Let them have their medals!

After all, they are so brave going there and it's not as if they have an easy life at home, especially as their expenses have been curtailed :hmm:

Perhaps we should give the medal a 'name'. That way, when they are spotted wearing one, you can say "ooh, you've got a ######!"

[Toddington Ted]

"Every medal casts a shadow." One of Sir Winston Churchill's many erudite sayings I believe. Two years ago I recall meeting a group of these AFPS peeps at Lashgar Gah. Ah memories! All in the past now as terminal leave starts in a couple of weeks (always a somewhat ominous term I think!).

[Two's in]

Fascinating little culural snapshot here - apparently we don't appear to care much at all when said individuals transfer UK sovereignty to faceless bureaucrats in the EU, or when they fail to enact immigration and welfare laws that prevent the UK being the displaced persons top EU destination, or when we watch them steal countless thousands of pounds from Parliamentary expense accounts and then lie about it, or when they aid and abet the wholesale dismantling of a credible milatary force through neglect, removal of funding and the elevation of beancounters to positions of influence and control.

But somehow we care when a sadsack fat frump gets to pin on a gong that nobody with an iota of intelligence will associate credit with any risky or dangerous enterprise? Spare me, please. No wonder they keep getting elected.

[Tankertrashnav]

Yes foreign Tat not allowed but awards for gallantry from foreign parts issued by approved countries may be worn.


You're right PB, and the operative word is approved. After WW2, our people were allowed to wear decorations given by the Americans, French, Dutch etc etc, but those few who were given Soviet decorations were only allowed to keep them but not to put them up. Shame for the 4 Hurricane aircrew who got the Order of Lenin, it would have caused quite a stir on post war RAF parades.

Does anyone know if embedded journos get the OSM? There's a long tradition of newspaper correspondents getting campaign medals, going right back to the Crimea, and I've seen a Boer war medal named to a newspaper man.

Still think the MPs thing is something and nothing and people are getting worked up for no good reason.

[Melchett01]

Let them have their 'moment of glory'.

I know for a fact I earned my medals the hard way slogging it out with some pretty unsavoury characters doing their best to make sure I went home in a re-arranged version of how I arrived in theatre. No trinket that the MPs decide to award themselves can take away the fact that we all earned our medals the hard way.

Vecvechookattack - just noticed you said you had 2 clasps on the OSM. Are you one of the few to have the Congo gong as well as the Afghan gong? There was a push a while back to get a second clasp for Afghan to differentiate those who had served in Southern AF in comparison to those in Kabul, Mazar-e-Sharif etc, but I didn't think anything had come of it.

[vecvechookattack]

No ... Sierra Leone and Afghan....

I'm not sure the location of where you serve in the Country really matters....You are correct in what you say regarding earning your medals.... Very true

[Easy Street]

My (cynical) view on why we get only get one medal for taking part in multiple operations, adding only a clasp for each different theatre, is that it disguises from the casual observer the extent to which our forces have been deployed over the past decade or so. If everyone pictured in uniform had a row or 2 of campaign medals it would certainly be noticeable to Joe Public! Whilst defence has a high public profile at the moment, that wasn't the case when the OSM was introduced...

[teeteringhead]

But surely the OSM just continues the "single ribbon, multi clasp" principle which has carried on from previous GSMs various for at least 150 years ...?

'Twas the Falklands Medal that broke the mould, and I guess that was a push from the RN and/or the Blessed Margaret.

The ACSM was conceived to address the perceived "multiple clasp, single ribbon" issue, particularly with its associated rosettes.

As has been correctly and eloquently stated, only an individual really knows a medal's worth. 'Twas ever thus and ever will be; my late father's WW2 Defence Medal was earned as a fireman in the London Blitz - quite possibly more deserved than Capt Mainwaring's in Warmington-on-Sea!

Do we really want to go the Spam route?

[Wander00]

Teeteringhead - My Dad's too. He operated out of Pinner Road Fire Station, N Harrow, but was mainly working in London. Was at St Pauls and City Temple with on same crew as Ernest Lough (Oh for the Wings of a Dove)

[Tankertrashnav]

If everyone pictured in uniform had a row or 2 of campaign medals it would certainly be noticeable to Joe Public!


Yes, and he'd probably think they were Americans. Oh sorry, you said only a row or two!

[rarelyathome]

We are certainly not there, nor do I think anybody wants that, but we are in danger of becoming 'badge' collectors. It seems to me that people are judged these days by how many ribbons they are wearing and those with fewer are somehow lesser beings. But medal collecting is rife. In my time in various theatres there have been numerous 5 week studies (sometimes 32 day studies!), Bdes that rotate every member through the Th for 30 days to ensure they all get the medal, and even folk remaining in Th an extra few days beyond a task to reach the magic 30 day timeline. Rows of medal ribbons do not necessarily (please note that word before jumping back with indignation) indicate years on ops. Don't forget also the many who do ops for which there is no medal - generally but not exclusively those commanded from Regent's Park. Melchett01 is right about the recipient being the one who knows the worth of the medal and there are those who should blush when wearing theirs.

Please let us get away from medal collecting. If I had my way I would give medals only to those assigned to a PIC on the OET and extend the qualifying period to 3 months with the usual caveats for those wounded or killed. Judge people on what they have actually done not on what they seem to have done.

And before the usual PPrune accusations flood in, I have my share of ribbons.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

I suppose that we should be pleased that some politicians show an interest in what we do and how we do it. They shouldn’t need a gong/badge, whatever, to encourage them; but if it does?

What is a genuine point of irritation is that Blare and Broon may have qualified for this particular “Blue Peter” badge. Oh the irony.

Anyway, I sent off for the petition signature “page” but, after a thorough reading, I won’t be completing it.

[Tankertrashnav]

rarelyathome

Th? (Theatre?)
PIC?
OET?
Regents Park? (Royal Zoological Corps?)

Can you give as clue as to the meaning of the above? Be good for those of us who aren't in the know :confused:

[airborne_artist]

Regents Park? (Royal Zoological Corps?)

Think Princes Gate :ok:

[Melchett01]

Don't remember seeing a Princes Gate when I was last at the zoo. Saw a few chimps though - must be what TTN was thinking of.

PIC / OET in simple speak = the official proof of invitation to come and play. If you aren't on the OET, you aren't coming in. Apparently.

Nobody seemed to tell Div that's what it was when we rocked up in Basrah totally under the radar!

[Jimlad1]

"Does anyone know if embedded journos get the OSM? There's a long tradition of newspaper correspondents getting campaign medals, going right back to the Crimea, and I've seen a Boer war medal named to a newspaper man."

Sometimes they do - the first lot in TELIC got one, including several daily mail journalists who then later on wrote a piece attacking MOD CS who deployed for the required time receiving one. Oh how we laughed...

Not sure if later embeds do though - I believe its only the first phase of a campaign.

[rarelyathome]

TTN.

Sorry.

PIC - Post Identification Code
OET - Operational Establishment Table
Regents Park - I wouldn't call them chimps!! :}

[vecvechookattack]

Does anyone know if embedded journos get the OSM? There's a long tradition of newspaper correspondents getting campaign medals, going right back to the Crimea, and I've seen a Boer war medal named to a newspaper man."

Now that's different. If a chap wants to join the boys on the Front Line so that he can tell the folks back home what is going on then he deserves a medal.

[parabellum]

Saw a series of programmes here in Australia with a chap named, I think, 'Ross' someone, he was right up there and made very good TV, I'd have given him a medal of some sort.

[Tankertrashnav]

Regents Park

Oh, you mean the Special Air Service Regiment rarelyathome.

Why didn't you say so? ;)

Quite agree vec, just wondered if journos were still getting them. I suspect they are

[Lima Juliet]

If "no medals for MPs" then how about LMF in their logbooks instead! :ok:

[Lima Juliet]

Regents Park - this is what he meant...

LONDON - NOVEMBER 23: Actress and pop star Jennifer Ellison with troops while she loads Christmas gifts donated by charity UK4UThanks! onto a helicopter to be sent to British forces based abroad on November 23, 2007 in London. The last 24, 500 boxes are going out to the UK Armed Forces from Regent's Park Barracks today.

http://cache4.asset-cache.net/xc/78073234.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=77BFBA49EF8789219B309651A2344B3F84322C26143ECCA82D75A2B6EE A6F849360DE50DDF278C76

[Tankertrashnav]

Thanks LJ. So what was all that about Princes Gate? My default position on Prune these days is confused.:confused:

[airborne_artist]

Princes Gate (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/uk/2000/iranian_embassy_siege/717047.stm)

[Army Mover]

You blue jobs have (had?) the Queens Flight; we brown jobs have (had?) the Queens Baggage Train (it's in fact a fleet of vans, but lets not split hairs here); the same bull**** factor as was applied to your flight was applied to our vans.

The Queens Baggage Train was based at Regents Park Barracks, which also provided a home to The Artists Rifles, which is what I suspect got AA's interest.

Phew ................. :8

[gaz354k]

Just noticed the comment about 2 clasps on OSM, sorry if this upsets anybody but that is impossible!!
The OSM is issued with a different ribbon for each operation, to date only three OSM's have been issued,

The OSM for Afghanistan (which is awarded with a ribbon eadged in a desert colour, and depending where the individual is serving they also get a clasp which reads "AFGHANISTAN", those without a clasp are normally naval personel who are deployed to the indian ocean on aircraft carriers and support vessels, the do not enter the landlocked country so only get the medal)

The OSM for the Democratic Republic of Congo (which is awarded with a ribbon edged in a orange colour and has the clasp "D.R.O.C"

The OSM for Sierra Leone (which is awarded with a ribbon edged in a green colour and has never had a clasp, but those who took part in the specific "operation Barras" to free those at the airfield got a large silver rossette to wear on the ribbon.

therefore as each OSM represents a specific operation, and as no clasp was awarded for Sierra Leone, it is and always will be totally impossible to have a 2 clasp OSM with clasps for Afghanistan and Sierra Leone.

Cheers