Stay away from KAL

[Captain Kimchi]

The Korean Goverment changed the rules and that affects the Expat Pilots.

Giving up a Job and take the risk to go thru training is still a valid point, even the failure rate is a little bit less then it was when it peaked a while ago. That can change again from bad to worse. Once in the mill it is depressing to learn that promises from the Agent are only "Bleed Air". No support when it comes to make a point, needless to say why. No Agency want to take it on with KAL because they fear that as a consequence Pilots from the firm Agent are not considert anymore and each Pilot placed into the system is some revenue and cash at the end of the month into the pocket. If there is a discrepancy between the contract and the way KAL-Administration is applying it then the Bermuda triangle is wide open to get nowhere. Administration sends you to your Agency to talk to them, the Agent will say everything to excuse it as a misinterpretation and a miscommunication at the first. Next he will not enforce anything at KAL because of the fear prescribed above, back to square one.

Honoring the written contract, applying it diffrent. What is minimum ten (10) in English? Ten, (10), for KAL it is Eleven, (11).... When you are sick you get penalised by leave days. You work and the hours are not credited towards your overtime even it is written in the Contract. Your are entitelt to four free tickets per year for you and your Family, confirmed Y-Class, standby C-Class. You make a booking several weeks in advance and on the day of the Family vaccation you stay behind because the flight is full and there is no seat available. The Check in Staff is not very accommodating either in ICN and you face the additional costs of taking another flight or stay in the Hotel at your own expense. The contract ? no value at all. Complaining to whom? tell it the Meter, it listens when you drop a quarter in.......The diffrence is immense, the contract does not refelect what the reality is. The promise is broken before it is even made.

There was another loss in a favour KAL was providing for the Crews, travel home for some Pilots is reduced to two days only because of Airplane Type they fly. Your are based in LAX and need to travel three days for one pattern, as a A330 Pilot you get the three days, as a B737 Pilot you get only two days. Strange counting. As KAL is hiring more Expat Pilots they now eliminate the Travel off First Class into Business Class despite that you are on the GD as a Deadhead Crew. Calling it enforcement of contractual terms......

Recently happened on a ICN-HKG-ICN flight for deadhead Crew: Korean Captain travelled in First Class to HKG, the ExPat travelled back in Business with Seat available in First.....

Confidential reports are common, they are even enforced by the Management: There are some signs behind your name and that indicates the other Pilot that the Chief Pilot is expecting a report after the voyage if proceedures are followed and how the Captain behaived. Subject to the report you can expect a surprise Line-Check with a devastating result. The track out is paved in some cases. Knife stabbing ?

Contractual terms are not enforced when the increment of pay comes into the discussion. It is missing since a while despite the fact that the company posted a profit in the fiscal year.

Racism against Expats is common. There are terms where Koreans clearly state "ForeignCrew", Foreign Captain and so on. You are not part of the Company or the team at all. The impression is that you are a obstacle in the system. The word welcome comes over the lipps but not from the bottom of the heart. Strange that strangers are still desiring that is heaven on earth. The cameradery is low, ellbow politics are high and the moral is missing in the middle. You can be on a 72 hours layover somewhere and some of your Crewmembers are not even care to say good morning when you pass them in the Hotel Lobby or somewhere around. You can try hard with a huge enthusiasm to improove the climate. Result : Kindness is seen as a weakness.

If you sit around a few guys who talk openly and tell you a few things how it is you may think they make it up. Usual for some Aviators after a few beers got drained, reality is that they only scratch the surface, most cases are more brutal then they can talk about.

Make up your mind and consider if it is worth to risk to be a target. There where good Guys expelled before they even walked into the Training. Somehow the result of a Checkride is made days before, regardless of the performance. There where Checkrides passed and then later declared as failed. No support and when someone is able to proof there was a false statement the messenger is shot because he is dare to blame. Blackmailing is also common. The moral is as low as the bottom is reached. What bottom? there is more to come below.

[andrew152]

sounds like you had a good time over there then!!! Out of interest how many expats are there currently working with them?? I know of a few people that have very recently aspplied to them

[lights out]

yes, the asian culture is sometimes strange for westerners--but i've heard also very positive aspects, like an almost 100% roster stability (or is it more grin and bear?)--hopefully you find a better place rather sooner than later--by the way, always wondered why they have a 45 age limit for FOs--take care

[PappyJ]

Sorry to hear that it's not working out for you, but after several decades overseas, I think there are a few things that you need to consider....


...You are not part of the Company... Correct! You are not. You work for an agency, and are paid a hellofalot more than the same local.

Crewmembers are not even care to say good morning when you pass them in the Hotel Lobby or somewhere around The fact is, that without your uniform on, they just don't see you. I've seen this countless times. But, if YOU approach them with a friendly "hello,", normally they do recognize you.

The Check in Staff is not very accommodating either... Name ONE airline whos check-in staff are! Expat or otherwise.

Korean Captain travelled in First Class to HKG, the ExPat travelled back in Business And the problem with this is???? I'm pretty sure that if you were flying for UAL (whatever) and someone less senior to you was forced to Business, you wouldn't have much to say about it. What makes Korean Captains any different? Actually, they DO have seniority and are entitled to perks; you're just a temp!


Racism against Expats is common I wonder how many times you may have been perceived by the locals as racist toward them?

if proceedures are followed and how the Captain behaived You're paid to follow their procedures, and expected to act professionally. I'm not convinced that this is an unreasonable expectation on their behalf.

You can try hard with a huge enthusiasm to improove the climate... They just may be happy with that climate. Again, the only thing expected from you (us), is what's written in the previous quote.

the company posted a profit in the fiscal year So they seem to be doing something right.


That's enough, since I'm sure I'm going to take a beating over this response.

[kulchyolp]

PappyJ.
Couldn't agree more.
I suspect it's all about attitude. More often than not if you are pleasant to people they will return the sentiment. That's about as much as you can ask for.
(And a pay check of course!)

[PappyJ]

I suspect it's all about attitude. Was hoping someone would pick up on that hint :ok:

ps: Kimchi has been complaining about KAL for at least the past 6 years! (Check postings)

cheers

[hunterboy]

Dunno if it is still the case, but I heard from a former exec in KAL,that the average length of service for an expat pilot was 11 months.

[Rananim]

It takes a very special person to survive working with the Koreans for more than a year.Ditto the Japanese.Polite,honest,hard-working but very difficult for a westerner to acclimatize to their ways(xenophobia due immense inferiority complex).Agents are gutless and powerless to protect an expat.Americans seem to fare better as we have been stationed out there for more than 50 years en masse, but its still difficult to go out informally with a Korean and have a drink.
As regards the flying experience out there,its heavily automated and expats are monitored by their FO's who are under orders to report back.This from an airline that has had 9 major crashes(same as that other bastion of safety CAL).
A job for the very thick-skinned and highly diplomatic and that leaves out a big majority of pilots.

[captplaystation]

Ref previous two posts, that explains the relatively slow expansion vs the constant recruitment of expats by 4 ? 5 ? well, a lot of agencies.
Have several ex-colleagues, relatively happily I believe, ensconced there, but generally they are well rounded & prosaic individuals, this "particular" company is not everyones "tasse de the" indeed.

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

PappyJ - It appears you have a remarkable ability to subjugate your soul and personality to foreign airlines. That is, of course, your perogative but it does not represent the way most reasonable people wish to live their lives. Most of us are simple souls who wish to exist in peace without fear of persecution on grounds of race, colour or creed.

KAL are a rock-bottom company with a safety record that beggars belief. There is a direct relation between the draconian treatment of foreigners and the dire safety record of this company. It shows a closed culture that wishes to ascribe blame to others whilst hiding personal failings. These are the foundations of castles built on sand. You might imagine that having had to face the horror of a succession of terrible accidents it would concentrate the mind and lead even the most inward looking of individuals to question why their airline was so bad and others were so much better. But not a bit of it. It has led to a seige mentality that seeks to blame foreigners for all ills, and is only marginally ahead of the mindset that exists among their brotherhood in the North. It is most regrettable that some more far-sighted individuals have not attained senior positions there and realised that they are in fact laying the foundations of their next accident. And no one will be more suprised than the present management when it happens.

[PappyJ]

This from an airline that has had 9 major crashes...... It has led to a seige mentality that seeks to blame foreigners for all ills, and is only marginally ahead of the mindset that exists among their brotherhood in the North....

There are other jobs out there. If things are so bad, leave!


A job for the very thick-skinned and highly diplomatic and that leaves out a big majority of pilots. ...It appears you have a remarkable ability to subjugate your soul and personality to foreign airlines Which are you assuming me to be?


but its still difficult to go out informally andd have a drink... Really! Hell, the last time that informal drink happened it involved the F/O and all but one of the Cabin folks. I recall that I may have carried one of them back to the hotel! Bottom line, it involved MUTUAL respect and accepting that when on their soil it's there culture, and visa-versa. In fact, I just remembered that more than half of the woman that showed up at my New Years party, were local Cabin folks!

Personally, my life here has been good and I've been rewarded on more than one occasion. I respect them, and they have proven time after time to respect me with all matters and opinions.


More often than not if you are pleasant to people they will return the sentiment. Is the absolute truth!


If you're that miserable, it may be best to go back to the US (or that 51st state the UK) before you wreck things for the rest of us.


and again.......I'm sure I'm going to take a beating over this response.

[Captain Sherm]

I had nearly 12 great years there. Very challenging at times and the early years were not memorable....how could they be with the accidents then? But overall a privilege to have been there. As for "fitting in"....that's all in the eye of the beholder. If you want to you will.

It's a whole new ball game now or at least was when I left. They have put massive resources into rebuilding and refocusing. I am proud to have their name on my resume.

I'd happily fly again with them in the cockpit or cabin anytime.

[Ace Springbok]

Beg to differ here; with the recent movement of hordes from the deserts to the land of the morning calm, things are slowly going pear shape. Loss of first class travel, tightening of other benefits, f/os reporting on foreign pilots, etc. Things are gonna get worse, believe me!

[zlin77]

I survived 7 years at KAL, wasn't too bad, any 777 Capts. who are not happy might want to consider THY, they need a bunch in the next few months, IST base 3 weeks on 1 off plus travel days .

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

It is genuinely good news that there are a number of contributors on here who have enjoyed their time in Korea. I also fully accept that there are ways of conducting yourself in a foreign country that are culturally sensitive and go a long way to mitigating any problems with relationships. Nonetheless, I am one of those people who wish to be considered as an equal and not a second class human being - I would love to believe that is possible in Korea but I am not convinced. Can someone with more experience of KAL as a company tell me if it is possible, for example, for a foreigner to hold a Training Captain's position? That would be very telling.

[SRS]

NSF, there are many foreigners that hold training and check pilot positions. Also QA auditors. There is also a tier higher with advisors to line operations and to the standards dept. Now the larger question of being considered equal..........no.:rolleyes:

[PappyJ]

SRS is completely correct. There are foreign tiers which actually reach to some fairly high levels. The difference between the folks who reach those levels and those who are subject to "F/O reports, etc" is ATTITUDE!

If you come here (Anywhere in Asia) and immediately try to change everything to the way it was done at "Your Airline", you'll soon find yourselve :ugh: , or :confused:

However, spend a little time learning about the local culture; display your competence and ability, and you will probably find that they (the company) will begin to tap into you as a resource.

BUT remember this. They will probably listen to your input; they may even promote you higher up the echelons, but all your good input will eventually be disseminated to everyone from THEM - as their idea! This is part of the face-saving. Frankly, it's not a problem once you understand it, and so long as there is the movement of knowledge, who cares who gets the credit.

Just my 2 Wons worth.

[Chuck Canuck]

Gotta agree with Ace Spring here. Of late a few blokes from the sandpit has wriggled into some audit department and fed the higher ups weird ideas of how things are done in the desert airlines..........whooooosh, good things are going to disappear in a puff of sand! KAL a few years back was like EK in the 90's with a nicely comfy operation before the hordes of pilots flooded in. Look what happened to EK now........the same thing is gonnna happen in kimchiland! These hordes has made their fortunes in the sandpit and now converge onto NE Asia, things are gonna get f**ked up. As they begin to misuse and abuse the privileges the Koreans kindly extend to the pilots and families, the KAL management is going to tighten up or even withdraw most of the perks. For the veteran over in KAL, it is probably time to look for other pastures.

[gleneagles]

Chuck....are you hinting at a certain know it all frog who was dunked out of EK with clouds over his head?

Absolutely essential to long time denizens in ICN to look for other pastures. With the current massive hiring exercise, you can bet your last dollar that it's " in comes the **** and dross "