Beware of parting with your money!

[mercuray]

A recently advertised position for a copilot based in Bournemouth on a N-Reg.Part 91 Lear45.N-708SP.
Based in EGHH.Owners live in Monaco,I was told.(Italian)
You will be asked by the CP to pay him £2500 for the FAA SIC training;Upfront;No receipt and no guarantee of work! The interview was full of contradictions and being less than complimentary about the present freelancers,who appear to get fired at the drop of a hat.My point is not to involve you in my decision to walk away from it after TSA approval,but only to advise anybody who would accept this position on those terms to pay £250 before EACH of the first 10 Line flights.I am confident that the CP/Operater will not accept this.It is wrong that one has to pay anything,but I accept we are in hard times.I am semi-retired,so it was never of great importance to me and I should have kept with my first instincts. Young guys taking loans etc is a different story.As soon as I received my TSA approval,I was told that the aircraft was busy for the next 5 to 8 weeks.Effectively I was conned out os $130 for the TSA and £90 for a class 1 medical that I was pressured into getting,although a class 2 is adequate,(which was current).The AME also voluntered to me that the CP had checked by phone on my Medical attendence on the day.None of his buisiness.Not to mention "Patient Confidentiality".Certain other aspects concern me and I will be seeking professional advice,but that is not for this forum.If you have the L45 on your FAA ticket and spare time,I guess that may be ok.If not,be very careful is my advice based on what I have just experienced.:=

[keithskye]

For the younger, less experienced guys, this would be an opportunity to break into the market. Anyone considering this situation should get a contract that states that they will have the Lear 45 job (F/O position) for a specific rate of pay (salary), for a specific period of time (one year), subject to payment of the 2500 pounds as a bond, and successful completion of the training at FSI or CAE (at the company's expense), etc.

Having hired many pilots in the past, I know that the CP is trying to keep the candidate from taking the training and then simply walking away to another job somewhere else. It's happened to me. When pilots do that, they hurt EVERYONE in the industry, and themselves later. I think I've met this CP, and he struck me as a straightforward kind of guy, but that was just from one casual meeting there at Bournemouth when we were having our 604 looked after.

Many pilots have been their own worst enemies, because of poor work ethics and lack of any sense of honesty, loyalty or commitment. Many of the employment and salary issues we face have come about because of ourselves as a whole.

[mercuray]

Certainly I agree with Paras 1 and 3 of your post.Sadly Para 1 conditions were not even up for discussion.Whilest this CP visits Flight Safety once or twice pa,it was also made very clear that did not include any freelancers.Happier to pair up with an instructor or some other sim partner.The opening line of the interview:"I want to make it clear that you will not be taking my job"Me thinks that is something one may think,but to utter it, demonstrates a degree of paranoia.400 hours pa.Not bad for this kind of operation.I suspect that the buget may include a full-time SIC which is normal for a 2 crew aircraft! The guy has a very nice expensive red Porshe sitting in the hanger;runs the L 45 empty up and down to Nice all the time.The owners apparently just accept it.Fine,but all this and they cannot (Quote) "justify a full-time copilot".The owners,I was told,have no idea about the avaition industry.I will go along with that one!

[Global Warrior]

Two crew aircraft. have to have a type rating!!! end of story. You aint gonna get a LR 45 type rating for £2,500.

Steer clear people.
Its life jim, but not as we know it

[mutt]

Two crew aircraft. have to have a type rating!!! end of story Its operating under FAR91.... would you kindly specify the regulation that states the FO must be type rated.

Mutt

[NuName]

Hi Mutt,
For a few years now the FAA have required the SIC to be typed if operating outside of the US at the insistance of JAA/EASA. It still remains relatively easy to qualify for the SIC endorsement though.

[Global Warrior]

If the CAA find out that the aircraft is only being operated with one type rated pilot, they will prevent it from flying. They are pretty strict about this.

Also my understanding, although i could have been misled on this, is that to get an SIC rating, you need to attend a manufacturers course and get signed off by a PPE.

All the best

GW

[HS125]

A FAA ATP can sign off the training for the SIC, you'll then have to attend a FSDO to get the rating applied to your certificate.

You don't need to attend an approved course but the aircraft must obviously be insured to conduct the training.

[happyjack]

Sign of the times again I fear.
Everywhere I go these days no-one will pay for recurrent training now. Take the cheap option and knock off an LPC in the aircraft instead. You may think the training schools would sit up and take notice. They have had it good for a while so reduce your prices and make it affordable rather than push all your customers away and then have idle simulators!!!
Another example of the dumbing down of the whole business. Safety costs money but there seems to be no shortage of people willing to take the chance!
Just how much lower can this industry sink?

[mercuray]

To be fair,it is true,it is quite legal to obtain an FAA SIC type-rating as mentioned.It is a disgrace,but legal.I was told that "We will do 3 circuits;nip out to the south and do some steep turns and stalls and I will send you to a "DPE" in UK who for £375 will issue you with a temporarary airman's cert.We will do the ground school properly" The latter degenerated into a 5 to 8 week delay on the flying as soon as my TSA approval was granted,and the ground school: " I will copy a couple of CD-ROMS and put them in the post." He also suddenly wanted me to position the aircraft empty from Manchester to EGHH without any ground school and no safety pilot.Next week,I have an appointment with an avaition lawyer.I can make no further comment on this for legal reasons.I will persue it to FAA and the owners if so advised.My original reason for this post is to try and stop anybody handing over £2500 to this individual.It is likely that he may have commited non avaition-related offences with regard to the moneies.We will see.I am not concerned with the actual $130/£2500 as mush as I am with the principle and legality.

[mutt]

I am with the principle and legality
It appears that you had no problems with handing over the money in the first place, so if you had actually flown the aircraft and obtained what you expected, would you still have thought that your training was a "disgrace"?

Mutt

[mercuray]

Well,I have a suspicion who this e-mail is from ! I cannot answer your question as I never did the training.I have no reason to suppose that the training quality would have been a disgrace and I am sure that all the boxes would have been ticked.You stray from the point.At the interview I was happy to hand over the £2500,(just before the flying!).In principle,I still would have done if the other party had remotely done what they promised.I have enough PMs to realise that I am not the first to be mislead.Today the CP called me,"ranting and raving".He claimed that he had called my AME who was very upset. I then called the AME.He had no idea what I was talking about and wished me all the best.No such call has been made.I think the latter speaks volumes!!! During todays conversation,I was invited to fly for him;invited to go and have a drink today;threatened with law action from his "very rich clients" and finally that I would be reported to The FAA.Having run hot and cold for 13 mins,he slammed down the phone.Anyway,I suspect that this is enough "Soap" before the moderater steps in.I repeat that my intention is to acurately reflect my recent experience and strongly suggest that anybody who will accept this situation/position(?) just be very careful with parting with money.In hindsight,I am wrong not to have insisted on a financial legally binding contract to protect both parties.That would have saved me being hood-winked.I accept that I am old enough that I should have gone with my gutt instincts.I did not.

[NuName]

It seems to me that being as the FAA have for many many years had a system that worked very well maybe it should not be maligned so quickly. The FAA/CAA accident/incident rate has never been very far apart so the end result of their individual pilot requirements can't be in doubt. It was only recently that the requirement for the SIC in a N reg aircraft came into force for operations outside the USA, there is still no requirement within the USA and its still working perfectly well. Like anything else, it can be abused, but, if conducted in the proper manner its just fine. Time has proved it. The SIC rating is little more than to ratify the situation with other civil aviation authorities outside the USA. The training requirements always existed.

[mercuray]

I have to say that your post is correct and the FAA system has no evidence of produceing a bigger accident rate,to my knowledge.I have been through it within and without the confines of The USA.The instruction and testing have always been to the required standard.I put that down to the professionalism of the examiners.However,in my view,it is wide open to abuse and convenient sign-offs and should be policed more tightly.I have heard of some pretty hideous tales,but no more than that.Maybe just Tales.

[mutt]

convenient sign-offs But isn't that exactly what you paid for?

You sound old enough and mature enough to have realized that getting qualified on a jet aircraft for 2500 was a very convenient sign off.. I appreciate that it sounds as if you got ripped off, but what exactly were you expecting?

Mutt

[lpokijuhyt]

So the saying goes: A fool and his money....

[loftustb]

I ain't no fool and I haven't parted with any cash, but I have been conned at interview by a seemingly "nice guy" owner. I said I was happy to start work and wait for the contract to come through. You know the rest............the money wasn't as much as promised, neither were the hours. The grand plan never materialised, etc., etc. When I questioned it, I was told that I must have made a mistake, haha!! I learned later that I wasn't the first either. Older, wiser and more cynical now.

[mercuray]

No,Mutt,I was paying for a FAA SIC,Type-Rating.That which was on offer to be commenced on Friday 29 Jan and to be completed 28 days later.You again miss the point.Read other inputs.I said that the system is wide open to "convenient sign-offs".A generalisation quite clearly.Second point: Well,I was certainly not expecting to be ripped off.......Just the SIC type-rating as agreed at interwiew and cleared so to do by TSA. The purpose of permission to commence training between 2 dates is to do just that,not to knowingly mislead a candidate with false information;obtain the clearence,and then say; "we have 180 days in which to do it.Catch you later.I am busy for the next 5 to 8 weeks"
A fool and his money.Ditto.I did not lose the £2500;just the $130 TSA Fee.....Yeup, I should have known better!
There is "Law" outside avaition with regard to financial dealings.Next week,I will follow professional advice.At this point,I am effectivly muzzled. If the guy was honourable,then he would just return my monies ($130). I repeat,it is the principle and underhand manipulation of myself and the system...not the $130.Having said that, it is the first time that I have been conned in aviation.Dumb move,but it will be one that will hopefully be rectified.I could just walk away and forget about it,but I won't.Not much gets my goat,but this one has.

[asdf1234]

Mutt, I have to disagree with your obtuse line here. The forum should be about fellow professionals warning about bad experiences and that is what mercuray is doing.

Mercuray, I'm sure there are plenty of first-timers out there who will be thanking you for your advice.

[mercuray]

asdf1234.

Thanks for that.Indeed that is my only intention to warn others as I am confident that I would have been warned.Hopefully I have just stated "how it went",and let those that may be interested in such an advertised position just go in knowing a little more of the possible downsides,and make their own judgement.(especially the younger ones who can easily talk themselves into a job on a nice looking 1st jet,and quite possibly already be heavily in debt having borrowed to obtain their professional licence/s)

[keithskye]

Wow, now that I have a clearer picture of what transpired, I have to say that the next time I meet the CP in question (how many N registered LR45s can there be at Bournemouth?), I will certainly look at him in a different light!

I am trying hard to help close a deal with my boss to buy a Lear 60, and I've already picked my crew (sorry guys, I wish I could offer all of you good people a job) in case the deal is successful. If we get the aircraft, it will either stay N registered as it is at the moment, or register it with Isle of Man. Regardless, I would send my crew to Flight Safety (I have a very good relationship with them) and the company will pay for the initial type as well as all recurrent (once a year). After a time, I would probably have them typed in our Challenger as well, as I intend to get typed in the 60, too. That would mean that all of my crew, and myself, would be going to school once every 6 months, alternating between the CL604 and the LR60, which is a minimum as far as I'm concerned.

I have no issue with making a potential pilot employee sign or post a bond to try to insure that he or she does not up and run off with the qualifications (type rating or recurrency) which I've just paid for. That very thing has happened to me before! Another challenge for any CP is the situation that occurs when you give a low-time pilot "a chance", especially if they show many other qualities as a person or employee, and their training and experience indicates that they should have a certain level of skill. The problem is when you send them off for training and then find that they are struggling to get through, or maybe they get through okay, but then when you start flying with them, they can't fly worth crap! It's worse when they are a nice person - great personality and easy to get along with - because then you invest more time in them in an effort to bring them along. Sometimes it works, but often it doesn't. That is a painful situation to have to deal with!

I have to say that the actions, if true, of the CP at Bournemouth are reprehensible and very odd! But I can also tell you that unfortunately, there are a large number of pilots who's work ethics are nearly non-existent and all they ever do is whine about the situation they are in (no matter how good you make it for them within the constraints of your budget and the mission requirements), and they always are looking for that "better" job, not having learned the truth of the saying "the grass always seems greener on the other side of the hill"!

Before any of you complain too loudly about salaries and benefits, you have to understand that these things are market driven, and you have to look at the business of the aircraft owner or operator and research the state of the market that THEY are in! When I see that my boss's hotels are doing badly, I don't go looking for a bonus at Christmas, and in fact, I am always prepared to take a salary cut, or stay in cheaper hotels on the road, etc., and I am always negotiating cheaper fuel, hangarage, parking, lav and water service, etc. with every FBO at every airport we go to. It's a fact of bizjet flying today that the Captain at least must do this and get very good at it!

Good luck to all of us in this very challenging career (and here I thought the challenge was in learning to fly when I first started, and now I know the challenge is in getting - and hanging on to - a good job)!

Keith

[Miles Magister]

Keith,

Thank you for a useful and wise post.

MM

[mercuray]

DITTO.BREATH OF FRESH AIR.KEEP IT UP.THE INDUSTRY NEEDS THIS KIND OF ATTITUDE.BON CHANCE WITH THE L60.ALL THEIR CREWS SEEM TO REALLY LIKE IT.INCIDENTLY THERE WAS SOME L40/45 SIM DUE TO S
TART IN BURGESS HILL,SUSSEX,UK AROUND NOW.NOT SURE IF THAT IS STILL A GOER? Might be the answer for the brits.....

[Mike Echo]

Off Topic but to answer above Question
CAE Burgess Hill Sim due to be available around mid to late April.
M.E.

[mercuray]

tks.that could be of interest to some of the pm,s.....

[notanastronaut]

Outstanding analysis Keith!