Pssst.. Anyone wanna buy 6,000 Litres of Avtur?? [Archive]

barnstormer1968

1st Feb 2010, 19:28

I think I may need some help thinking about this in the overall picture.
When you say .22, do you mean .223? If so, then seeing as I am in the UK, I guess I'd need to call it 5.56, as we are talking NATO quantified rounds:E.

Ah yes, I'm with you now...You mean the round that is slightly smaller than the old 7.62, but has similar kinetic energy! Just tell me you were not thinking of 7.62 shorts, as that would mean a whole different thing:}.

I have to admit though, that with an SLR and and some good old 'made in the UK' 7.62 rounds..You really meant business!. Although in this case, I think the ROE may be a major factor in how scary any rounds would be to the fuel thief

glad rag

1st Feb 2010, 19:47

but has similar kinetic energy!
Excellent banter :D , but go downrange "in the big picture" and it's as phony as T bLiar!

Over to you sir !

davejb

1st Feb 2010, 20:35

Just out of interest, any references to hand regarding the kinetic energy? As far as I can Google it (numbers seem to bear out my memory of the two rounds) the SA80 round is about 3/4 the diameter of the 7.62 and about 10% shorter. (My memory says shorter than that, but I guess I'm wrong there). Velocity of round 900 m/s for 5.56, 823 for 7.62...

Doing the maths the 5.56 appears to have 56% of the Ek of the larger round, so unless the bullets are made of substantially different material (depleted uranium rounds anyone? <oops>) the SLR round ought to have about double the punch....

"The maths" being strictly a matter of ratios - ratio of the bullet volumes assumed to be the same as the ratio of the two bullet masses, half each mass being subsequently multiplied by muzzle velocity squared...the difference in velocity squared is only 20%, nowhere near enough - I'd have thought - to compensate for the smaller round?

Just wondering, as I remember this 'same kinetic energy' stuff from when I was in, and I'm wondering if that was PR/sales blurb with inconvenient facts being overlooked... assuming the sales team knew any facts....

Signed,
Bored enough to spreadsheet it of Wigan

Airborne Aircrew

1st Feb 2010, 21:56

I believe the fact that the MoD has just ordered 400 "sharpshooter" 7.62mm long rifles from an American manufacturer, (I forget the name), to be used to keep the Taliban out at 600m rather than at 300m which is where they have determined the effective range of the current weapon in theatre is thus depleting their effectiveness would go a long way to answering the 5.56/7.62 long question.

minigundiplomat

1st Feb 2010, 22:38

Can you deliver the Avtur to Westminster, with a box of matches?

G Fawkes.

PS Put it on expenses.

Muffin Themule

1st Feb 2010, 23:48

Them boys on the SHFNI thread may be in a position to put you in touch with a buyer

The Helpful Stacker

2nd Feb 2010, 05:53

Aye, there was a lovely chap with a farm either side of the border not too far from G40 who'd no doubt be very interested in cheap fuel.

Jabba_TG12

2nd Feb 2010, 06:58

"When the thieves returned for a second attempt, under the cover of darkness five days later on January 17, an armed patrol spotted that part of a nearby fence had been cut and a padlock cut off."

is that a tacit admission that it took the guardforce FIVE DAYS to spot a hole in the fence? :confused: :*

Jesus, talk about "cant get the staff...." :suspect:

SRENNAPS

2nd Feb 2010, 07:40

"In fact the last time anyone actually tried to get into the base was when the CND protesters were here."

Was it not RAF Wittering where a gang broke in through the airfield perimeter fence to nick some caravans that were owned by station personnel and stored on the airfield? I think it happened in 2000/2001.

Also

is that a tacit admission that it took the guardforce FIVE DAYS to spot a hole in the fence?

There was an incident at RAF Brampton several years ago where a vehicle crashed through the main station fence and that was not spotted for a significant lengh of time. I blamed that on the good nosh and free Sky movies that was provided to the Wyton/Brampton Guard Force:ok:

Gainesy

2nd Feb 2010, 10:31

Should subscibe to Farmwatch, sort of like neighbourhood watch with attitude, cops email details out of dodgy vehechles out, farmers & rural dwellers send emails phone callss on spec number in. Weapon of choice is a12-bore with 4-shot handed to Wifey who has just been told Pykees are trying to nick her dog.
Er,, You do put a ginormous padlock on yer tanks, don't you?

Wee Weasley Welshman

2nd Feb 2010, 10:51

You mean the L129A1

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l49/davidcoates/Military%20Refs/id35225.jpg

I'm a member of Farmwatch. It is effective. :E

WWW

Dan Gerous

2nd Feb 2010, 11:17

"Will it work in my diesel"
Yup if mixed 50:1 with OM-15

Used the formula 100/1 for Avtur/ordinary motor oil, (sorry can't remeber the OM No.) as a diesel substitute on Ascension in 82, for all the Ground Equipment, and it didn't do it any harm.

Rocket2

2nd Feb 2010, 11:30

OM-15 is aircraft hydraulic oil. Mixed in this proportion for many years on diesel winches launching RAF gliders with no effect other than clouds of thick smoke!

rigpiggy

2nd Feb 2010, 12:12

It's been a while, and excuse the imperial but
(V*V)weight(gr)/450240)=ke in ft/lbs

5.56 nato 62gr/3100fps=1323ft/lbs
7.62x39 russian 123gr/2350fps=1508ft/lbs
7.62nato m118 175gr/2650=2729ft/lbs

the new L129a1 is mfd. by Knight Armament Corp. and is basically a modified AR10

Gainesy

2nd Feb 2010, 12:19

Is this the one that has Biblical quotations stamped on the framework?

rigpiggy

2nd Feb 2010, 14:48

No that is the ACOG sight, cast into the mount. 2minutes with a dremel, and some anodizing solution, problem solved. Just below ACOG you can see jn 812
h ttp://lh5.ggpht.com/DoubleTapper/SGFkqRqWKHI/AAAAAAAABYo/Ph0J79NvH1g/IMG_0475.jpg

barnstormer1968

2nd Feb 2010, 14:49

Glad rag. yes it was banter, and I'm glad you saw it as such too.

Davejb..Those sums made my ears bleed:}. Although, being serious for a bit, I do remember that up close the effect of 5.56 and 7.62 were very similar on block and brick walls:eek:

Please, please, no one else think for one minute that I think 5.56 is a really good round 'in the bigger picture'...But lets face it, its still better than the old stirling, in which a wet blanket at 100m was sufficient protection:}

The L129A1 is also a good example of smart procurement. Not only does it have increased fire-power, but it also has a natty cheese grater on the fore guard.

It's just a shame that (from memory) the UK no longer produce their own 7.62 ammunition (which was always heavier grained than U.S. ammo.

Anyhoo, sorry for starting this thread drift:oh:

4mastacker

2nd Feb 2010, 15:18

Dan.

Used the formula 100/1 for Avtur/ordinary motor oil, (sorry can't remeber the OM No.) as a diesel substitute on Ascension in 82, for all the Ground Equipment, and it didn't do it any harm.Spotter mode 'On'

It was, (may have changed) OMD 80 (Replaced OMD110). OMD = Oil Mineral Detergent.

Spotter mode 'Off'

We used Avtur at MPA to dilute the Diesel during periods of really cold weather to reduce the risk of the diesel 'waxing'. You need to read the chicken bones as the the mix has to be made before the cold weather sets in otherwise it doesn't work. Only so much Avtur can be put into the diesel (ISTR max of 20% but stand to be corrected by THS), otherwise there comes a point when HMR&C could become interested as the Avtur is Duty Free and the road diesel isn't.

As the Avtur is unmarked, its prescence in diesel can't be detected with the road-side visual test...hence it makes it an attractive proposition for the pikeys to nick and use in their (nicked) expensive diesel 4x4s in case their 'yooman' rights were ever violated by plod pulling them over for a vehicle check.

The Helpful Stacker

2nd Feb 2010, 15:33

4amstacker - Whilst you correct that there is no simple road-side test for telling exactly if diesel has been mixed with avtur the most simple of available resources (the nose) should be able to detect the presence of aviation fuel. From that initial clue a sample could be taken and either sent for distillation testing or (far simpler) tested by refractometer to establish FSII content and then drawing out a mix percentage based on dilution of the FSII.

Sorry for those of you not treated to the joy of the CLA course at West Moors, it really was as dull as this sounds.

And sleep

4mastacker

2nd Feb 2010, 16:07

THS,

Thanks for that master class on petroleum hydrocarbon structures - really fascinating stuff. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz :8

glad rag

2nd Feb 2010, 16:53

:ok: barnstormer1968

(V*V)weight(gr)/450240)=ke in ft/lbs

5.56 nato 62gr/3100fps=1323ft/lbs
7.62x39 russian 123gr/2350fps=1508ft/lbs
7.62nato m118 175gr/2650=2729ft/lbs

Anybody got the figures for the LSW??

Must be frustrating when an Afghani with a near 100 year old battered smle can outrange you and get rounds around you too..:uhoh::uhoh:

davejb

2nd Feb 2010, 16:57

Given rigpiggy's numbers (I didn't know bullet mass so went off conical volume estimate) Ek (J) = 59266 (SLR) and 25110 (SA80), and if you compare those figures you discover that as ever, the answer is 42!

(42%)

Back on thread, thanks for the offer but I'll AVTUR decline....

As has already been mentioned, absolutely fascin.....snorrrrr

NutLoose

2nd Feb 2010, 18:49

NP here with it drifting from my original post, fascinating stuff..

Shame they got rid of all the old SLR's, they made excellent bottle openers errr weapons, though for Airfield defence it was the wrong musket, I always used to think at Bruggen that if the Ruskies ever did visit and we were having to fight it out, such was it's range that every miss was probably going straight across the Airfield and into 31 Sqns site.......... No great loss there then :p

barnstormer1968

2nd Feb 2010, 19:32

Glad rag
top comment (sadly) on the smle.

Does anyone here know if the Brits still have any serviceable No 4's hanging around anywhere?. The 303 was a fearsome weapon, and more accurate than the SLR to boot.

I am very out of touch, so for all I know there may even be some out in Afghan already (I mean shooting at them ,not us)

GeeRam

3rd Feb 2010, 08:53

Does anyone here know if the Brits still have any serviceable No 4's hanging around anywhere?. The 303 was a fearsome weapon, and more accurate than the SLR to boot.

No, all long gone, other than the handfull spread out around various establishments for historical purposes.

Aahhh.....the SMLE and middle finger 'mad' minute' musketry drills :)

The still current, world record for aimed bolt-action rifle fire was set way back in 1914 by a Hythe School of Musketry instructor — Sergeant Instructor Snoxall — who placed 38 rounds into a 12" target at 300 yards (270 m) in one minute :eek:

Personally, I loved the No.5 :p

airborne_artist

3rd Feb 2010, 09:41

I loved my SLR when it had the match-stick conversion to enable a double tap on one quick trigger pull :ok:

barnstormer1968

3rd Feb 2010, 10:00

My SLR was older than me! But I loved it, as it was like a faithful old friend (ahh reminiscing here;)). It had all wooden furniture, and a sliver butt plate. Looking back, it was very similar to the toy guns I had as a child I suppose.

I never took to the SA80 though, seeing the original ones as a bit frail.
My friends tell me the A2 is a much better weapon.

Thud_and_Blunder

3rd Feb 2010, 10:11

Personally, I loved the No.5

I bet you still have the bruises/chipped scapula to prove it, eh? :}

airborne_artist, if you'd had a chance for LS in Oman you could've had your very own FAL without the need for any matchstick. Just a bearer for all the extra ammunition - and a personal armourer/armoury for all the barrel changes... Loved the Steyr when it arrived in 1983 - everything the L85 should've/could've been. Any other rifle out there - even now - as adaptable as the standard Aug?