EC130 as an EMS / SAR machine?

[integrity]

Greetings all,

Looking for some 1st hand information please.

Contemplating a/c for a combined EMS / SAR role and we are looking favorably at the EC130. We are definitely looking at single engine only and like the very roomy cabin / wide body of the 130. Would love feedback from actual users in these types of configurations.

Does anyone winch out of them? If so, left side like the 350's? And therefore any C of G problems?

I know AirMethods do an impressive EMS single stretcher kit. Any other fits that are used or prefered? And has anyone operated 2 stretcher as the Eurocopter info suggests?

Thanks for any and all input. Fly safe.

Integrity. :)

[spinwing]

Mmmmmm .....


...... EC130 as an EMS / SAR machine? ....


You're joking arn't you? :eek:

[cleartorotate]

Does it sound like he is joking SpinWing? Have some respect Integrity ask a good question so dont waste his time.

Anyway as a EMS role i think the 130 is a good choice over the AS350 in the single engine category, more room for medics and a better stretcher configuration the airmethods system looks sweet as well. As for SAR and Winching im not sure its the best choice i would say a AS350 B3 would be the winner here, i also have not heard or seen a winch set up for the 130

Maybe someone else knows something.

[victor papa]

spinwing, i am with cleartorotate on this one. Firstly regarding the SAR side I am sure they are not looking at your traditional SAR equipped machine as it won't work. We normally, to avoid confusion, don't call it SAR but just rescue capability. This would normally be a air ambulance equipped with a hoist and/or dual cargo slings thus the capability to perform a extraction ie mountain/sea. The 130 is not certified with a hoist currently. My previous company who moved to the 130 after extensive research for HEMS types also tried to find a hoist STC/sb as per the 350. We played with the C of G graphs and it should be no problem. The older 130's have the fixed brackets on the LH side of the MGB but the newer once not. I would put the hoist right hand side and as said there is no current ability for the hoist but I see no problem fitting the exact system ap the 350 to the 130 either LH or RH. The 130 does have the sling capability if your ops allow that.

As an air ambulance she is unbeatable. Reliable, stable, easy on pilot and med crew, space, aircon, and the thing that shocked me the most is her hot and high performance and EMS weights and range.

UNBEATABLE in HEMS!!!

[integrity]

Thanks Cleartorotate and Victorpapa,

great info, backs up what we were thinking. Agree with you on the B3 as a winch platform, but it looks like we will primarily end up 90% EMS so the wider cabin, more space for the crew will win out.

If anyone else has any news or rumor or feedback on the winch progress for the 130, would love to hear. Does anyone run a nightsun either?

Spinwing, great contributions! You obviously live in a land devoid of any financial grasp on how things happen. Someone has to pay for it all, and clearly you are not involved in any of that process. I'd love to set up a 139 with all the bells and whistles too, but sometimes a small single that can keep on being afforded by the public it serves will just have to suffice.

Thanks again to the helpful contributors.

Cheers, I.

[victor papa]

integrity, the 130 has a ever growing amount of options. I am not sure of the nightsun but know the Avidyne EX system has a STC as well as many other systems. The best place to look for options is Eurocopter Canada and the Canadian STC lists and American Eurocpter as well as air methods who use them extensively in various configurations.

We configured the 130 for single stretcher and 1/2 pilots dependant on the requirement. Fitting 2 baseplates for 2 stretchers with single pilot should not be a problem or certification nightmare as you have the 2 sets of seat rails you can mount them on which is certified. We did not have any power issues with 2 plts + 2 crew + patient (on the return leg) hot and high so that should be the same for 2 stretchers.

Remember the EC130 has evolved a lot over the last 4-5 years away from the tourist only machine into a full utility helo. We had a 2002, 2006 and then a 2009 model. Their is a distinct increase on all levels of performance on the newer machines and between the 3 ages a definate difference-but the 2002 one is still going sweet daily doing the business quitely and her crew and patient in comfort.

Also, I was stunned by the durability of the cabin, windows and frame in EMS circumstances where stretchers and incubators can often make a machine look old and tatty. none of that on the 130 so far and the 1 has done just under 2000hrs of hEMS.

With my previous company the 130's were never offline for scheduled maintenance due to the flexible Maintenance program written by eurocopter with various tolerances and options. Make sure you read the MSM fully and decide on how you do your maintenance. The options are there and we had no issues despite them flying 365 days of the year.

The 350B3 will always remain unbeatable in my opinion for rescue work due to the power and tail rotor authority and I love them, but the 130 has stunned me and surprise me everyday with her ability one maybe does not expect looking at her.

[spinwing]

Mmmm ...

integrity, cleartorotate, victor papa .....

How about you take my question seriously too ....

I have been in this business for quite some years in fact one of my first jobs was flying air ambulance in a 'single' way back in '76 I have seen operations come and go .... I have also been a Chief Pilot of a SAR/EMS operation so I think I can speak with with a certain amount of credibility.

The reason I asked if 'integrity' were joking really revolved with my seeing he appears to originate from Australia ... and the thought of another start up SAR EMS operator trying to do that type of tasking in a single there is quite frankly 'doomed' before it starts. (If you want PM me and I shall give you a contact to talk to about the realities of S/E rescue in Oz).

You can rag me all you like about being out of touch ... but I can tell you that the "small single that can keep on being afforded by the public it serves will just have to suffice" is an illusion ...

Once you get involved in it SAR EMS becomes deadly serious stuff the consequences of failure manifest (as you can see from another thread running on this forum atm).

Sorry if I've pricked your bubble ...

Good Luck .... you'll need it :E

[victor papa]

spinwing, i agree with what you are saying to a point. As i explained the abbreviation SAR should not be used unless you go all the way. I do however see no problem with the 130 in it's HEMS role. Might only have one engine (with 3 independant digital controls I might add), dual hydraulics, fenestron which increases gnd safety and lessons tail rotor failure possibility, mGB from the 355/350 line up with millions of hours etc. Without getting stuck on the single engine scenario do a full safety case into modern engine failure especially say on the 350 and EC130 range using the correct fleet hours and work out the rate of probability vs other probabilities. I hear what you say, but I will much rather be in a 130 hot and high with comfortable crew and patient than in a more (not many cabins beat the 130 in EMS for size)cramped light twin where I wonder how many times that 2nd engine, if that is all we are concerned about for failures, will really at EMS weights hot and high take me much further than the 130's single. To increase the standard of patient and crew comfort and safety and care in a 130 I would look at nothing smaller than a 76C+, N3 Dauphine, 109grand just making the list due to space and 145 and upwards.

[mark-086]

Would there be any consideration for the AW119...or would I be way off the mark with that one?

Here is one with a Winch and Night sun fitted, and you have to admit it looks brilliant in black.

http://avbuyer.com/images/AircraftImages/18257.1.1.jpg

[9Aplus]

Must agree with Mark086, Koala AW119 Ke is much better choice for HEMS
and hoist, have enough power on hot and high, rear cabin is just enough
for 190 cm stretcher, and have combined interior option with 2 stretchers
and one to two (small) attendants, both can be stored in extend cargo bay and
6 pax can seat. Space for medical instrumentation is limited and O2 installation
must be in cargo area too.

5A purchased recently around 6 units for HEMS, have been in one, last year....
better choice than EC130 for sure.

Please do not forget JAR OPS 3 limitation for single HEMS machines....

PS(pilots must be small people, otherwise trouble with cockpit space..,
I am 191cm, 98 kg :})

[integrity]

Thanks again folks for more good stuff,

Spinwing, sorry you are feeling a little prickly. I treated your post the way you treated mine. Yep, I'm sure you've been in the business a while. Me too, (just coming up a quarter century!), but mine has all been IN Australia. So, I think I do know a little, and am not prone to wasting my or others time on doomed issues. (Done all that back in my young enthusiatic days), So thanks for the offer, but I'll continue down my track, as directed by the one with the cheque book, happy that not everyone knows exactly what is happening or going to happen in everyone elses world.

V.P. - you certainly seem to have the goods on my questions. Thanks a bundle for all of the insight, I think you've sold me! (When you get tired of flying I think Eurocopter could use you in sales!!). If I come up with more curly questions - I'll reach out.

Mark086 - we hadn't really looked at the 119 due to an apparently cramped workspace back there. A 190cm stretcher would be fairly tight I imagine. If you have any pix of the configuration, would love to see them. Or if anyone else runs the 119 in a dual role config - would love to hear the reports. The a/c does look great and I imagine it would be a great hoist platform. But as I have said (and others have eluded to), this will, I predict, end up predominantly an EMS bird.

Thanks again all. I.

[cleartorotate]

Ah i forgot about the 119, This is worth looking into.

Max cruise over 140kts.

Endourance about 5 hours with all tanks (if you fit stretcher kits this uses the space for the fuel tanks so this will take you down to 3hrs).

Plenty of power, just a tad more then the AS350B3 using the wonderful P&W PT6.

Usefull load about 1290kgs

Cabin Length: 2.10m
Cabin Width: 1.67m

Three-axis autopilot, cockpit is night vision goggle compatible, You dont have to deal with Eurocopter maint, The only problem its expensive about $2.5 New

[victor papa]

We looked into the 119 as well. Nice heli. Problem though is tall patients due to the post. Fuel endurance is not what it seems on paper especially at 140kts+. you basically choose speed/fuel and if you choose speed hope there is no wind. The company I left got 119's too and although a great machine and a nice pilot ship if you are small she has her restrictions. Have a good look at the OGE, fuel endurance vs speed and TOT limit graphs for hEMS weights and fuel tanks removed.

One can argue either way but to me it goes about what is your primary needs. If you fly in a country with tall and biggggg people you have to consider the cabin space as well as the loading space which can restrict you even if the cabin doesn't(119 post between cockpit and cabin). Do you fly short or long legs? Is fuel use a issue or just speed? If you have hot temps with humidity a aircon becomes a necessity for both crew and patient unless you have massive vents in all windows and are not bothered by wind and noise. then there is maintenance which leads to downtime. Eurocopter might not be the greatest but if I read these forums the sentiment is beginning to be shared towards agusta? however, just look at the cowlings between the 130 and 119. The 119 you need engineers to have access to anything other than oil levels through the little doors. This means that for any scheduled/unscheduled maintenance those cowls must come off. count the screws. the 130 phylosophy is opposite. doesn't look nice but within 1 min max the pilot has full access on his pre flight to all of the important bits and he has to check them so if you have any sense you will notice the slightest change in condition of something long before it causes a problem. Now go read both machines maintenance tasks and you should see why the 130 can remain online 365 days a year if you plan your scheduled maintenance beforehand.

Phylosophy differences - your circumstances will determine which one suites you.

[spinwing]

Mmm ...

integrity ....

Don't really feel at at all 'prickly' or threatened ... I just could not believe you were serious about this ... and if you continue with this project I wish you all the best of luck ... you WILL need it .


Cheers :)


P S ... You do however jump to a conclusion in thinking that just because you have spent all of your career flying in Australia only you can know what is going on there ..... there are heaps of us AUSSIE expats flying overseas these days picking up all sorts of 'worlds best practice' tips ;)

[VH-XXX]

Perhaps one of these would suffice in terms of light twins, the EC135P2+ ?

http://www.abpic.co.uk/images/images/1070306M.jpg

[Squeaks]

119 post between cockpit and cabin

we hadn't really looked at the 119 due to an apparently cramped workspace back there

Not sure what the issue is, but there's no "post" between the cockpit and cabin in the 119 :confused:

Stacks of room compared with the 130, although maybe not quite as wide. The flat floor of the 130 goes all the way through, whilst the 119 has a footwell in the cabin and the cockpit, but overall length is the important issue for stretcher fit.

[victor papa]

The post I refer to is that one between the front and sliding door. You remove the lH fuel tank in order to allow space for the patients legs. If you load the stretcher you have to move it into this cavity and avoid the post between the 2 doors ie you are limited on swivel angle when loading a tall patient either by the inner cavity or the post if you load. If you load in the 119 from the rH into this cavity you can load taller patients, but this requires quite a mod with the paramedic seats being in the way. The 350 and 130 with both doors open have no post between the doors which means you have the full length on the 130 and almost 350 (except for the forward bit next to the instrument panel)open without obstruction. Again, if you work in a country with short people no problem, if you work in a country with tall and most patients 110kg upwards it is a problem to load them. The floors is again different phylosophies and what you prefer. The flat floor makes it easy for loading, getting in and out and especially cleaning in my opinion as well as configuration changes.

[Turkeyslapper]

Spin Wing.....I think that a SE helicopter still has its place in this field IF the limitations of such machines are acknowledged and operated within.

A former organisation of mine had a single as a back up machine for day VFR work (should the ME IFR bird become unavailable) and to be honest for a lot of the close in primary work it was ideal (and often I was glad to have it rather than a medium twin).

IMHO, and as long you don't expect it to do everything a ME IFR platform does, nothing wrong with using a single.:ok:

Turky

[spinwing]

Mmmm ...

Yup .... that IF word .... problem is it leads to so many temptations doesn't it?


I'm not saying it can't be done .... I'm questioning whether it should be done?

Time will tell .... :ugh:

[mark-086]

Integrity I had a look and found some images of an AW119 Ke in the EMS configuration on the Agusta website. It shows both the 1 and 2 stetcher configuration, its a PDF file here is the link. (Click the brouchers tab.)

AW119 Ke | AgustaWestland (http://www.agustawestland.com/product/aw119-ke)

I got these images on the same site.

http://www.agustawestland.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/aw_resize_media_gallery//images/AW119%20KE_19.jpg

http://www.agustawestland.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/aw_resize_media_gallery//images/AW119%20KE_20.jpg

V.P. and the guys there have made some very good points for the EC130 or AS350, it won't be an easy choice but best of luck with whichever one you do choose.

[Ian Corrigible]

cleartorotate - is that A$2.5 mil for a Koala? Stateside they're 50% more expensive than a 407 or EC130/350B3. This, plus the 119's higher operating costs, probably explain why so few are used.

I/C

[mark-086]

Hi Eddie1,
If you follow this link

AW119 Ke | AgustaWestland (http://www.agustawestland.com/product/aw119-ke)

Click the brochures tab. Open the PDF file and on the 3rd page you'll see some interior images of the 119, including one image showing the single stretcher configuration, which in my opinion is a more viable option.
Two stretchers in the cabin looks to be very cramped. A slightly overambitious move by Agusta. The single stretcher image shows some medical equipment on board also.

[if they only knew]

Not sure why I would want to help eurocopter out at the minute but eurocopter uk have a new EC130b4 for sale and please find a link attached for the airmethods EMS STC.

http://www.airmethods.com/resources/files/EC130.pdf

[integrity]

Thanks again all for some valuable input. Especially helpful were the pix and the links. What a great resource we have with these forums! Fly safe n enjoy. I.

[nigelh]

I know of a very nice 2005 one for sale v low hrs and great value . PM if interested .

[victor papa]

So Integrity-any news on what you chose and why?

[havick]

I have to agree with spinwing on this one. The way the regs are headed, many operators that have single engine machines as back-up to their twins are trading in for light twins.

[helomedrn]

I've never seen an EC 130 used for SAR. i know Travis county used 135's for rescue, but have since moved on to the 145. as far as power, the EC 135 is a bit lacking, even being a twin engine.
I guess it depends on your crew, gear etc. Personally (being a nurse, and not a pilot) i would suggest at the very minimum a 135. This is just from hearing the pilots reactions to the lack of power in the 135. i couldn't imagine what they would have to say about a single engine aircraft, for multiple reasons.

Is this for high or low elevation rescue?

[PhlyingGuy]

If you think that you'll want to do more multimission flights, you may want to check out the 429. Australia is one of the countries I think that has approved the 7500 lb MGW and the Fairfax county and Air Zermatt ships do exactly that.

Maybe the middle ground between the 130 and the 139

[homonculus]

Just a small comment on the 119 pictures from an ignorant doctor. Flying adults as opposed to children head first causes brain damage if they have a head injury or are sedated

Sadly nobody thinks about the patient. They need to be flown longitudinally feet first. Babies do better with the incubator at right angles to the direction of travel

[krypton_john]

Is that because the head is below the feet and gravity causes swelling? Could that be remedied by setting the stretcher on a ramp?

[mark-086]

Homonclus, I posted the original pics of the 119. I'm not a doctor, and never alluded to such a fact.

Also what you mentioned in your post regarding the angle the patient is positioned at, do you have any more info about this. I'm surprised AW missed that, I would have thought EMS AC were all built to the same specification.

[tottigol]

Helomedr, would you like for us to suggest you what type of cardiac monitor to use, or rather a specific supplier for medications?

[spinwing]

Mmmm ...

So 'integrity' ... 3 years on from your original starter post ... how is this all going for you ?


:}

[homonculus]

Ok for those interested........

The pressure inside the brain is normally controlled. If you have a head injury, are sedated or anaesthetised, this regulatory mechanism is disabled. Any bleeding inside the skull will then be catastrophic, but also if you put the patients head down in relation to the body blood will flow into the head increasing pressure. Moreover if we accelerate the patient feet first the pressure inside the brain goes up, and falls as you brake. If you move the patient head first it is the other way round.

The rise in pressure cuts off the blood and thus oxygen to the brain, and in particular the penumbra or area around the injury. It lasts longer than the period of pressure and can kill.

So moving these patients can literally kill them. This is why we put patients on a ventilator before moving them, as over breathing them restricts the blood vessels in the brain and provide some protection. We have to anaesthetise the patient, but the drugs we use are also protective

When we then put the patient in a land vehicle or fixed wing we have little control over the destructive forces - some of you may recall ambulances travelling at 10 miles an hour, but suspension movements are still destructive.

The helicopter is unique in providing a protective attitude. Flown correctly for the patient, a patient loaded feet first will go head up as they accelerate. The two forces cancel each other out. Deceleration is the same. A balanced turn applies no forces. The helicopter really is a life saver - we published evidence of this when moving intensive care patients 25 years ago - possibly the only evidence of reducing mortality due to mode of transport as opposed to cutting time to treatment

Sadly in the UK the NHS has refused to continue to pay for dedicated inter hospital ITU helicopter transfers. HEMS helicopters obviously provide the benefits detailed above, but lack the very specialised equipment and medical staf that should be part of the package

Happy to answer any PMs

[Harry the Hun]

EC-130 for SAR? What is next, a R-22 in Attack role or an Explorer as heavy lift?
Stop taking these funny pills.

[helmet fire]

Hi homunculus,
It seems from your description that it would be better to load head forward as nearly all HEMS machines do. That would include the A119 and A109 that we operate/d.

In general terms, helicopters hover nose up, therefore best to have head at front.
Most accelerate nose down, but flow neutralised by accel. Most decelerate nose up, again flow neutralised by accel.
Most cruise floor level, so neutral flow.

Agree 100% with you reasoning behind helicopters being a transport platform of choice.

Would love a link to your paper please.

[9Aplus]

me too.... :cool:

[Devil 49]

"Does anyone run a nightsun either?"
Have you considered NVGs? I've used various high intensity light sources since Vietnam, and NVGs for a couple years now- Never going back to unaided! I liked the Nightsun for EMS mountain work, but if the atmosphere isn't crystal-clear, using a Nightsun type installation will obscure more than it lights.

[homonculus]

Helmet fire

Although a head first loaded patient is safer rotary than in other forms of transport, the patient does much worse than if feet first. The reason is the attitude change occurs before the acceleration and the uncompensated G force raises intracranial pressure

When we fly ITU patients we have a pressure transducer inside an artery, often inside the head and increasingly now we are doing continuous ultrasound of the blood vessels. These are parameters HEMS do not routinely use so they do not pick up these problems.

Will send you the paper

[Hawkeye0001]

Since in most helicopter types (but the EC-130) you load patients head first are the pilots cautioned to accelerate particularly slow? Because I haven't witnessed a different takeoff technique in HEMS that'd differ from normal helicopter takeoff techniques (not flying HEMS myself!)

[spinwing]

Mmmm .....

And as good an argument as I've ever heard AGAINST Cat A procedure departures being used with HEMS ops .... :ooh: :ooh: :ooh:

'homonculus' ...... Thank you very much :D