GR-9 question please chaps

[recce_FAC]

I know this topic has been done to death, however I have simple question and I request a simple answer (for a pongo )

Why when us guys on the ground are having a pretty tough time in Afghanistan are the RAF/MOD getting rid of the finest CAS aircraft in the skies. I am not bashing the GR4 community at all, they dig out blind for us and provide a sterling service.However the GR-9 in a decent pilots hands are second to none.

Please spare me the old lines ''two pairs of eyes are better than one'' or ''GR-9 hasnt got a gun' because that is a comment made by Google pilots that havnt been calling for CAS or sending a CAS brief(9-line for you out of date punters)whilst in contact. ''Happy IV'' are finished at the end of March, which is depressing news for many a JTAC that has called on IV's services in the past few years.

Like I have stated this is not a GR-4 bashing thread at all, I just would like a simple explanation as to why this silly idea is happening.Even if we kept hold of them for a few more years until operations in Afghan are scaled back(if ever).

Any answers would be gratefully accepted.

Regards

Widow 3_

[pr00ne]

recce_FAC,

You are misinformed. 'They' are not getting rid of the GR9. The RAF is losing one squadron, leaving the remaining three to see the type through until it is replaced by the F-35 Lightning.

There is less than one whole RAF squadron deployed to Afghanistan for the CAS/recce role, as the RAF has 7 squadrons of Tornado GR4's as well as the Harriers, as well as the Typhoon force, the GR9 is being rested after a pretty grueling non stop deployment to Afghanistan.

You may have noticed that there has been just a teensy weensy world wide recession, so the defence budget is under pressure, along with the rest of UK public expenditure, and will face reductions in the next few years.

The one Harrier squadron going early is a part of that reduction.

[recce_FAC]

Cheers for you reply,
Granted IV are going so that leaves NSW and 1 SQN, how long before they go? Just gutted that the best CAS A/C we have will not be carrying out CAS on operations again. I know we still have the carrier committment etc its just a shame that we wont get them over the slies of Afghan again, and IV are getting disbanded. Why not bin a GR-4 sqn instead?

[flipflopman RB199]

Pr00ne,

You are misinformed..

Which three Harrier squadrons would that be then? As I understand it being part of Joint Force Harrier, there will be 4(R) which will be for all intents and purposes 20(R) and the Joint Harrier Sqn, comprising NSW and 1(F).

As F-35 is being delayed as we speak and looking increasingly unlikely to reach our shores, perhaps your rose tinted, Labour biased spin would be best used on a topic you actually have some first hand knowledge of, rather than simply opining upon a subject that you have no real knowledge or experience of, and feel content to pontificate upon from the comfort of your armchair.

I personally would also like to hear any answers to the questions that recce_FAC has asked, and hopefully they will offer a little more insight and be a little better researched and relevant than the rubbish pr00ne has offered thus far.


Flipflopman

[Easy Street]

Why not bin a GR-4 sqn instead?'They' have. Or more precisely, 'they' have axed 15 crews from the GR4 force - approximately 2 per squadron. This achieves similar savings to axing an entire squadron (typically 14 crews) without any of the negative headlines. And who's to say that the GR4 force will escape any future defence review unscathed?

I am not bashing the GR4 community at all, they dig out blind for us and provide a sterling serviceI think you answered your own question there. The GR4 may not be specifically designed for CAS in the same way the Harrier was, but it gets the job done, especially now that PW4 and DMS Brimstone are in service. As pr00ne said, we're broke, and we can't afford the luxury of a single-role fast jet - which (to an extent) is what the Harrier is. It can't touch the GR4's reconnaissance capability and is of much lesser utility in a traditional "full war" scenario. Meanwhile, the GR4 is achieving the task in Afghanistan (a task that has changed in nature since the Harrier force left, thanks to the intervention of Gen McChrystal).

Arguments about RN vs RAF politics and future control of the F-35 fleet are a different matter, don't even go there!

[Wrathmonk]

The NSW, according to here (http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/operations-and-support/fleet-air-arm/naval-air-squadrons/naval-strike-wing/), comprises elements of 800 and 801 Sqn. It was always the plan to have 2 x RN and 2 x RAF Sqns but AIUI the RN didn't have enough of certain specialist qualifications (Sqn QFI's I believe) required by "RAF regulations" to stand up 2 sqns and hence NSW came into being. I may be wrong and I'm sure I'll be put right! T'is the internet after all.

To answer recceFAC (who, despite his protestations seems to have a dislike for anything other than the GR9 in a similar way that CirrusF has a dislike for anything RAF ;)) the really simple answer may well be that, given the emphasis on the war rather than a war, JFH was never manned sufficiently for "the long haul", unlike the Tonka force (get your head into the books and do the maths). Furthermore the GR9 was always due to go out of service in 2018 and the Tonka in 2025. If you draw down the Tonka too early then, come 2018 when you then have no JFH, (now) not many Tonkas, a Typhoon force that may still be "austere" and the F35 delayed you really are up 5hit creek without a paddle. In the same way the Jag was the "sacrificial lamb" a few years ago it is the Harriers turn now and it will be the Tonka's turn when F35 (and Typhoon) can step up to the plate. And don't forget there will be early reductions to the Tornado force (and I suspect more than one sqn), they're just waiting until after the SDR (I know the article (http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/politics/future-of-raf-kinloss-cast-in-doubt-1.992486)is about Kinloss but the words are in there, I just couldn't be bothered to go further down than the top article on Google!) and/or peace in AFG (which if Gordo is to believed may be within the next 5 years....). Of course the brutal reality is that the GR4 are committed to ops. JFH isn't. And when you need to save money you don't chop units committed to ops - makes it hard work for the spin doctors (yes, I know, MR2 ...)

And anyway - a reduction in sqn numbers is a meaningless metric (apart from less wg cdrs and sqn ldrs which, judging by many posts on here, is not such a bad thing;)). I am fairly confident that JFH will still manage what is expected of it (which, sadly, I suspect is to keep the 'decks' warm as much as possible so as not to give anyone an excuse to say we don't need Carrier based aircraft anymore - enjoy the world tours whilst you can!) until it gracefully retires to the modern day version of the scrapyard.

[recce_FAC]

I'm not a GR-4 hater not by a long way, I'm just a big fan of the GR-9.The A war not THE war is a common term banded around the British armed forces. My thought on this is one of distain. My muckers and I are currently fighting THE war in Afghanistan, I couldnt give a toss about what may happen in the future, I care about what is happening right now. The GR-9 is the best CAS jet we have and CAS is a life saver (for us anyway)in Afghan.

I understand that the Harrier force needed a break,I know the GR-4 gang have carried on the role and are doing very well. It doesnt change the fact that the British armed forces NEED CAS everyday on Herrick and the best CAS jet we have is not involved and will not ever be involved again.

[pr00ne]

flipflopman RB199,

As I wasn't talking to you I couldn't give a rats arse what you think of my opinions.

4(R), 1(F) and 800 NAS is three by my reckoning, not sure what you think one plus one plus one is in your little world?

recce_FAC,

GR9 was heading for the chop between 2018 and 2022 anyway, any post election defence review may well bin it completely, especially if the Tories axe the carriers.
Despite the ill informed nonsense that flipflopmaan RB199 spouts, even if the Tories DO can CVF then the UK is committed to a two type fast jet fleet and the F-35 will join the RAF in one form or another as a Harrier and Tornado GR4 replacement or just as the Tornado GR4 replacement. It will be in much smaller numbers than the present fleet though.

The RAF may well have a much smaller fast jet fleet in the next decade, irrespective of who wins the General Election, but with Typhoon and Lightning it will still be one of the most capable on the planet. It will be more than capable of delivering the first class CAS you desire.

[recce_FAC]

Typhoon is going to be a cracking CAS platform, Ive worked with them often in FAC training and its hit of miss(no pun) depending if you get an Ex Jag mate flying or an Ex F-3 bloke. These all seen a long way off , and really nobody has actually answered my basic question.

Why are we getting rid of the best CAS a/c in a time that CAS is vital for us blokes on the deck? Im not interested in the future, we binned Jag which turned out being a massive mistake. All I want is a simple answer with out all the bull**** talk of JSF and elections.

[BlackIsle]

recce FAC

the simple short answer is - a decision has been taken!

So you and no doubt others don't like it - poor you - get yourself promoted to a position where you can make things happen or become a politician. The rationale behind such decisions is where you get the bull**** and politics you refer to

[Occasional Aviator]

recceFAC,

People HAVE answered your question - it IS about what you call "Bull****', and I'm afraid the answer isn't simple.

[5 Forward 6 Back]

recce_FAC; the GR9 is going because despite comments about it being better than the GR4, the GR4 can do the job to the required standard; and do the recce side of the house better.

We can't afford to have 2 jets that can do the same thing. If the GR4 couldn't provide anywhere near the capability the GR9 could, then I'm sure there'd be more kicking and screaming. As you've said though, it's doing a good job.

If you have any specific complaints about how the GR4 works in the CAS role, then do something about it; everyone flying it right now would be very receptive to some constructive criticism, especially if it means that people calling for CAS get a better service!

[Bob Viking]

What if we were to push money into Typhoon as our multi-role fighter and keep Harrier as our 'niche' capability that is readily deployable and can operate from much smaller strips and with a much smaller footprint than the Tornado?
Binning the GR4 would save more money and leave us with a capable and flexible FJ fleet. Admittedly there may be a few ruffled feathers in the navigator community!
BV:E

[5 Forward 6 Back]

I think that since the advent of JFH and the Navy's slight undermanning, the Harrier force has got too small to do anything, really. If there was a way to suddenly generate another 5 squadrons' worth of jets, and shove anyone on the GR4 force with single-seat pretensions through training to fly them, then it might be possible. It could handle HERRICK while Typhoon gains capability.

Trouble is, that plan hinges on there being money to throw at Typhoon; and there isn't!

[Squirrel 41]

recceFAC,

First BZ to you and your mates for saving lives out there (and for aiding the opposition's existential desires through coordinating MFOs - Martyrdom Facilitation Operations). Bl**dy impressive, and I understand your concern that the UK is busy talking about A war rather than THE war.

However, and it is a big however, the defence budget is almost certainly going to be cut substantially after the next "Review". A little birdy tells me that if the MoD gets "flat cash" - ie, the same amount next year as this and so on, the they'll be about £4bn short in 2013/14 (apparently it's in the NAO Major Projects Report 2009).

If you then assume that the parties aren't kidding when they say that they're going to cut spending on defence (and the other "non-protected" departments) by 15% or so over the life of the next Parliament (2013/14), then that implies a cut for the MoD of another £5.6bn - making the hole in the MoD's black hole becomes £9.6bn or so IN 2013/14 ALONE!

In other words, to balance the books in 2013/14, the MoD would have to cancel CVF twice over. In one year. :ooh:

Oops. :hmm:

So against this, the answer to your question is as has been said here already: GR9 is never going back to Afghanland, and we're broke, so let's chop it. When (and not if, in my opinion) the carriers are cancelled, the CVSs will be binned and the remaining GR9s with them. Fundamentally, though there is A war on, the UK is treating it as a war of choice, and not one of national survival. Consequently, it is not pouring all of the available resources into it, and is very unlikely to do so. Thus, as the GR4s have a larger force for longer ops, are more useful in the round, and the GR9s were going earlier anyway, it's a reasonably straightforward (if painful) decision to choose the GR9 as your saving, if you have to cut one type.

Sorry, and I wish it were different. It isn't. And before anyone jumps up and down, NO political party is likely to produce a manifesto that protects defence spending, let alone increases it.

Just my 0.02.

S41

PS BV - learn to play nicely with the other children! :E

[recce_FAC]

Cheers for the replies gents. Once again I am in no way having a bash at the GR-4 fleet.To be honest I had the last GR-9 tour on my last tour of Herrick so I guess my 2nd hand info on GR-4 is far from fair. I guess its just one of those things that GR-9 has finished in afghanistan. Please understand that my loyalty to the GR-9 and its pilots and ground crew may have clouded my ''big picture'' appreciation . The GR-9 and its crews certainly saved a number of Brit lives in Afghan, and for that I am very grateful. The King is dead long live the King so to speak.

Moving on,can we just buy all of those A-10's sitting in the deserts of the USA?????? Only joking. Lets hope the ''master plan'' for the RAF and its CAS roled aircraft works out or are we going to be left short in years to come. A widow from Herrick 9

[Sun Who]

Some passionate and legitimate views expressed here.

The unavoidable tension between fighting THE war now and A war later has never been effectively reconciled, in any country's history - ever.
The consideration that senior decision makers are being forced to wrestle with now, is that A war in the future, eventually becomes THE war now. When insufficient thought is given to A war in the future, then when it becomes THE war now, the military are left with issues such as; insufficient SH, old and creaking AT, an immature ISTAR doctrine etc, etc.

Recce_FAC is absolutely right to argue the case for THE war now, but his brothers in arms of the future will not thank him (or me, or us) if insufficient thought is given to A war in the future.

The only thing that helps me deal with the current sh1t state of affairs, is a passing knowledge of history.

Sun.

[knowitall]

"Moving on,can we just buy all of those A-10's sitting in the deserts of the USA??????"

afraid not, they're being stripped for spares to keep the active fleet in the air

[Easy Street]

recceFAC,

I guess my 2nd hand info on GR-4 is far from fairI suspect that is the true problem here. You may not be a GR-4 hater but there are plenty out there, presumably including your source. They firmly believe that the GR4 is not capable of CAS and never will be. Their ears are closed to any arguments advanced in favour of Tornado. Sadly this group includes members of the aviation press, as well as fellow aviators, who show a lack of professionalism in bad-mouthing their colleagues in front of Purple audiences.

A single GR4 now carries a CAS weapon load more flexible than anything a single Harrier could manage, with 2 Paveway IVs, 3 DMS Brimstone, a gun and a Litening pod. It has advanced IRCM just as the Harrier did. It beats the Harrier's recce capability hands-down. The crews have been doing CAS on operations for 7 years and are up to the task.*

In sum, it is capable of carrying out the CAS task required on Op HERRICK. Therefore there is absolutely no requirement to buy single-role A-10s (even if we could) as there is no "capability gap".
----------------------
* Please don't start on the relative merits of Tornado crews vs Harrier / Jaguar crews. The protagonists in this particular debate (including me!) took sides as 23-year-olds graduating from Valley and will not change their minds based on a PPRuNe thread! It's worth noting that the Typhoon force seem to take a much more equitable view of their 2-seat brethren, possibly due to the diverse nature of their backgrounds.

[BrakingStop]

Er, I think you did just start the debate between Tornado and Harrier by stating that the GR4 now carries a CAS weapon load more flexible than anything the Harrier managed. Can it carry all that at the same time as your beloved Raptor or DJRP? I'm thinking not.

[Spugford]

Thank God some sense finally being talked on this topic...

recce_FAC, I think the point is a fair one that to air such strong views off 'second-hand experience', particularly around these parts, is a bit risky at best. If you're trying to get a rise out of people, then fair play, you'll manage!

BobV, you should be ashamed, trying to feather your own nest like that! And I can't believe the comment about how cruel axing the Jag Force was hasn't been corrected/slapped down, or maybe it just wasn't worth the 'ink'!

[Easy Street]

BrakingStop (no prizes for guessing your allegiance then!):

My asterisked paragraph said I hoped to avoid the subjective 1-seat vs 2-seat debate. The point about the weapon load stands apart from that and is wholly objective.

Since you ask, you can have 2 Paveway IVs and the gun together with RAPTOR. And the Litening III recce package is now doing (by day and night) the kind of tasks formerly allocated to (day only) DJRP, so DJRP is effectively redundant. Every Litening III pod is equipped this way on every sortie. So there!

[BrakingStop]

Easy Street,

I would suggest that the GR4's loadout is roughly equivalent and no more or less flexible than the GR9's. However, the Harrier airframe is far more capable in Afghan than the Tonka.

5 Forward, 6 Back,

Quote:
"the Harrier force has got too small to do anything, really. If there was a way to suddenly generate another 5 squadrons' worth of jets, and shove anyone on the GR4 force with single-seat pretensions through training to fly them, then it might be possible. It could handle HERRICK while Typhoon gains capability."

We "handled" HERRICK for 5 years through some of the most intense periods of fighting seen for decades and we did that with only 3 front line sqns thank you very much. Many people outside of JFH have said that JFH was broken when we came home. We weren't broken, but we had suffered from skill fade in other areas - CVS and Night LL for example, which is why we are home now regaining those skills.

What is true is that unfortunately for recce_FAC and his mates we won't be going back to the Stan and our survivability in the future is 99% tied to the future of the 2 carriers. Post the recent announcement that we are losing a sqn, we will shortly become (but not yet) almost too small for anything other than CVS based ops. Fingers crossed for the SDR. If the carriers, and hence the GR9 survives, then there is a big risk that GR4 will take a massive hit...

BS

[Two's in]

Intentionally or not, recce_FAC has highlighted that a decision has been taken to prosecute an Air Warfare centric doctrine with GR4, rather than subscribe to a future with GR9 that requires more Jointery and Combined Arms Ops. Now I would expect the RAF to defend a decision that keeps them in the driving seat rather,, than having to play nicely with Dark Blue and Green all the time, but call it what it is instead of obfuscating behind an apparent "equipment" decision - it's doctrinal and all about controlling the assets.

[Wrathmonk]

Quick question - are there sufficient aircraft, pilots and maintainers on JFH to maintain the level of operations that they were undertaking in AFG on a permanent basis and still maintain any sort of harmony and still maintain competance in all the other roles/disciplines expected of it (in particular day/night deck currency)? Of course we could throw harmony out of the window by declaring 'war' and post all available JFH pers to AFG permanently ..... or use an equally capable force that can do the above.

As for the war vs a war discussion. A similar lack of foresight i.e. not preparing for what is coming around the corner, is exactly what has got this government (and a fair proportion of the population) in such a financial mess. Spend spend spend - don't worry, by the time the problem comes back to bite you on the a55 it will be somebody elses problem.

Edited to add - just seen BrakingStops post and that sort of anwers my question. JFH can either support ops TFN or support its other roles, including the CVS. Ignore CVS and it may be cancelled (possibly). By putting the GR4 in theatre and allowing GR9 to demonstrate the usefullness of carrier ops again (albeit not in an op theatre at the moment) it will better guarantee, IMHO, the future of the carriers. Which, again IMHO, is a good thing (taking cover from Jacko;)) but we're back to the war vs a war argument. If you want to fight the war, especially with the GR9, then you will lose the carriers. And of course if you're only fighting the war there is surely no need for a SDR until the war is over?

[recce_FAC]

I started this thread basically wanting to know the reason why GR-9 (In my opinion, the best CAS A/C with have) I would not be so stupid to have a bash at GR-4. GR-4 is our (in the FAC/JTAC world) our work horse. My posts on this thread are genuine,however my point of view is based purely on my role as a JTAC/FAC/TACP on the ground. Ive used GR-4 on Telic several times but with no kenetic effect and as I have already stated I have used GR-9 almost everyday of a 7 month Herrick tour with several ''kenetic events''.. In short I think i'm fairly well qualfied to discuss this topic and I know you pilots worked pretty damn hard at school compared to me , however I am the '' customer'' and you know what they say about customers?

Its not about the SCL of GR-9/ GR-4 that us on the ground care about. PW-4 is the best bomb around and it fits most situations where you need a Kenetic effect. Most of the work in Afghan is NOT blowing s@@@ up , its checking in,sweeping a route, pattern of life, show of force if the ICOM kicks off or your in contact and then ultimately ''warheads on foreheads'' The last thing we want is a jet to check out bingo off to AAR after a SoF. With GR-9 namely IV sqn when ever we visited them at KAF, us FAC's were treated as a vital member of the team,nothing was too much trouble and indeed good friendships were formed.

Back to my basic point. At the this time where the British armed forces are in need of CAS like never before, the powers that be have decided to cut back/scrap/mothball/send to sea whatever you want to call our best CAS aircraft. Please dont insult me with ''air politics'' I am a soldier on the ground ,I dont give a stuff about that rubbish,or egos that may have been bruised way back at Valley on hawks. Just ask your nearest FAC whats his favorite jet , Im certain I know what his answer will be.

On to GR-4 yep 7 sqns however the difference in CAS skills between these sqns vary a lot. Guess you could say the same about FAC's.I just wish they would turn up as fragged on the ATM and if the jet does go U/S they would have the decency to call us whilst we are freezing our kn@ckers off on some hill in scotland. I know we didnt try as hard as you in school but thats no excuse to be rude or ''special''. Harrier pilots always turn up and if for some reason they dont ,they call you get your address and send you a bottle of Whiskey.;)

Banter over with, lets hope the MOD see's sense and stops putting politics before capability. Because on my next tour, if the GR-4 is U/S and I get another Dutch F-16 to get me out of the brown stuff (you can see why they have that call sign ,JTAC-'' Can I have a GBU 12'' Dutch pilot'' R@@@@T !) Anyway GR-9 or GR-4 your all still head and shoulders above the Dutch,French,USAF, Belgies. Next time your supporting FAC's in UK just remember you should be trying to impress us as well as admiring yourself. Cheers :ok:

[The B Word]

There is another RAF asset "delivering the good news to Terry" that we have failed to mention...MQ-9 Reaper. It now flies night and day with a mix of 500lb LGBs and laser guided missiles (using about 4 a month on average since 2008). If we're into Tornado and Harrier bashing ask how many "deliveries" RAF MQ-9 has made in comparison to them during their concurrent deploy periods - granted "show of force" is a bit pants from an MQ-9!!!:ok:

By the way, IMHO, I think that "THE War / A War" banter is the biggest load of b0ll0cks invented by the Army - it's a war, pretty sh!tty like any other war, but is still just a war. If it was "THE War" then it would imply that it is the ultimate one and I reckon that there are few more to come yet! Otherwise, we're in for a Woodrow Wilson moment of a "War to end all wars"!

Oh, and I may have been wrong about the "show of force" :E

http://patdollard.com/wp-content/uploads/predator_cloud.jpg

[andy148]

Hmmm i dont know much B word but is that a Predator and not a Reaper??? :O But hey they dont call me Stevie Wonder for nothing!!

Recce_fac, do i know you?? Hmm im sure weve met somewhere down range????? Or maybe down in the weeds!! ;)

I think both crews do a sterling job, if only the Government did as good job!! TW!Ts!

[The B Word]

Hmmm i dont know much B word but is that a Predator and not a Reaper???

Yup, it's a fair cop - I couldn't find a supersonic picture of a Reaper!

BTW, for those not in the know: "The picture of the supersonic Predator UAV is a fake". Shhh! :ok:

[Op_Twenty]

Unfortunately the GR9 will never go to theatre again; luckily the GR4 is there to pick up the baton, it's just politics, it's not personal - shout about it if you will but it won't change, we are lucky to have a jet out there at all. The lack of 'kenetic' effect is due to command and is the General's decision (McCrystal) and not the aircrew or local ground commanders, and a very relevant policy it is too. Fac buddy, go read LRB · Rory Stewart · The Irresistible Illusion (http://www.lrb.co.uk/v31/n13/rory-stewart/the-irresistible-illusion) it might help us all to understand a very complicated situation. Glad you're safe anyway and if the bad people do bring the badness then believe me, the GR4 is more than capable of bringing the 'pain' to any grid square you choose.

That is a fact.

[Bob Viking]

Feather my own nest indeed! I resent that accusation!
When it comes to comments about binning the Jag, I would face far too much banter from those I work with to air my views in public!
BV:ok:

[BrakingStop]

Op_Twenty,

the GR4 is more than capable of bringing the 'pain' to any grid square you choose.

Surely the bombing accuracy of your GR4 is better than a grid square???

BS

[BEagle]

Unfortunately the return of the bona-jet to the UK will undoubtedly mean more deafening air show hover-bovver.....

At least the racket was over with quicker in the days of the GR3!

Seriously though, enjoy your well-deserved break from the squalor of the North West Frontier, chaps....:ok:

I'm sure that both the GR9 and GR4 are far more effective in all roles than the B-word's wretched drones.....:uhoh:

[The B Word]

Hey BEagle, did I see you outside Creech main gate this morning? :p

http://images.townnews.com/lasvegascitylife.com/content/articles/2009/12/07/news/local_news/iq_328132541_thumb.jpg

PS. The man, not the dog...

[Op_Twenty]

Surely the bombing accuracy of your GR4 is better than a grid square???

You're an idiot BS, but without guys like you this forum wouldn't have any posts, off you Viff, go on, shoo. (Someone remind me why we haven't scrapped this pesky little jet yet - apart from all the senior officer love-in?)

[Mr Grim]

I'm sure that both the GR9 and GR4 are far more effective in all roles than the B-word's wretched drones...


...and yet again BEagle demonstrates how divorced he is from combat operations in Afghanistan. The world of military aviation is changing. It certainly won't be as fun as the olden days but it will more effective and cheaper. Deal with it.

ps this isn't meant to imply the death of manned aviation.

pps for recce FAC - it still is a 9 line, or it was last week (haven't had one yet today!)

[BrakingStop]

Op_Twenty,

Pretty weak banter I'm afraid...

[recce_FAC]

Without sounding too much of a geek.It is a CAS BRIEF not a 9-line. A 9-Line is the report for MERT/CASEVAC.Splitting hairs but FAC's/JTAC's SHOULD use CAS BRIEF otherwise people start getting upset and confused in OPS rooms/TACP's. I understand you guys in the jets call it what you will. Standardisation dont you know. I bet a GR-9 Sqn use the correct terminology;) Boring triv stuff over.

[andy148]

Mr Grim... as much as it pains me, i have to agree with recc_fac on this one it is indeed called a cas brief now!

I think that B words est of the MQ9 dropping all that ordnance is a tad hopeful! I know as of last year it was averaging about one a month....with a hit rate of 100% every two months ;) too much time in down town LV if you ask me!! No offence guys....

Unfortunatly i have to side with B word, the need for UAV's is only going to get bigger. Fight as you might, think your as indispensable as the queen and your setting yourself up for a fall! The cost to build an airfix model..(sorry MQ9) and building a F35/Typhoon, manning it, fixing it does not compare (obvious). But with law enforcent in a certain gun crazy country now flying them, as well as customs and excise and border patrols, the cost effectivness of operating UAV's means there use is only gonna get bigger. If i was an F3 pilot i would seriuosly start thinking of maybe reaching for an application form! But id be v v happy to put my money where my mouth is too.... id happily fly the American Pred on anti piracy patrols.....the fact they fly from Male airport in Mauritious has nnothing to do with it! :ok:
Mr Grim call ready copy CAS BRIEF.......

[ranger703]

Recce,

The guys and the airframe(GR4) are well up to the task and are conducting themselves just fine.

Pretty quiet out there at the mo and with the emphasis on kinetic's only in extremis,what airframe delivers the effect is not really a factor.

I know the silly season is going to be soon upon us but hopefully this year we will turn the tide and see the start of a new Afghanistan. If McChrystal's directive doesn't work and we don't see dividends, I for one don't believe we can ever make a difference.

Anyway,take care bud and see you 'down range'.

[RileyDove]

I am somewhat reminded in this thread of Sean Connery saying he would never do Bond again! I think that the chances of GR.9 dropping weapons in anger are still very good for the old workhorse. Politically any government is going to find it very hard to scrap carriers that have already been started - I would anticipate that the potential Trident replacement stands a far greater chance of being abandoned.
As an insurance policy for the future the Harrier stands a good chance of surviving -in terms of technology, advancement of it's capabilities hasn't been abandoned and the airframes are capable of easily being advanced beyond 2018 -it's been looked at already.
So in essence I would say that F-35 has little or no future and the likely hood of the new carriers having a compliment of Harriers is very high.

[andy148]

Ranger, supprisingly it does make a differance what aircraft you have "up there". Its like comparing a ford escort to a BMW, there both cars but both have very differant qualitys!
Is Afghanastan winable? Id say no. We dont have the troops to hold the ground we spend so long trying to cover. Go out day after day, throught he same fields doing the same ****, all the time waiting for the **** to hit the fan! :(
What do i think, controversial as it is lets just get the hell out of there! This will no doubt anger people but hey...thats MY opinion! Feel free to rip it apart!
laters!

[Mr Grim]

Mr Grim... as much as it pains me, i have to agree with recc_fac on this one it is indeed called a cas brief now!

I think that B words est of the MQ9 dropping all that ordnance is a tad hopeful! I know as of last year it was averaging about one a month....with a hit rate of 100% every two months http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif too much time in down town LV if you ask me!! No offence guys....

I'm not saying what doctrine / training uses (only do ops, don't you know) but I have heard a lot (50-100?) of operational 9-lines in the last year and every single one has been called a 9-line by both JTACs of many nationalities and aircrew from a large range of aircraft. Maybe you are right and everyone in the coalition in Afghanistan is wrong!

Second point - if you are implying that Reaper has a hit rate of 50% and/or that UK FJs employ anywhere near the same amount of weapons as Reaper then you are seriously misinformed (again I am talking about ops, Garvie / HWD don't count).

[Pure Pursuit]

Mr Grim,

although you are quite correct that the term 9 liner is used out in theatre, it is infact incorrect. CAS Briefs replaced them a while back and any reference to a 9 line brief should be in connection with MERT!

Most British JTACs are actually using the correct terminology. Call it splitting hairs however, it makes a difference up in C2 when someone shouts, 'A 9 liner has just come in.'

[ZuluMike]

Flying Marines (http://www.flyingmarines.com/Tornado.htm)

[orca]

ZM

I am a little concerned that, due to the way it's written, some people might consider that to be a joke.

Regards,

Orca.

[Thelma Viaduct]

This thread is just a vehicle the OP is using to boast about his/her job, just another pprune acronym chopper IMO.