Cape Town Ops

[jetway]

Last week, a Etihad heavy departed CPT Rwy 19, and within seconds got a TA. The flight crew sounded extremely unimpressed with ATC for not bothering to provide a pretakeoff caution for helicopter traffic. Sadly, this is just one of numerous TA's experienced by fixed wing aircraft operating in and out of CPT. This can be quite alarming and distracting at a critical phase of flight. By African standards, Cape Town is becoming a major airport, and rotary wing ops need to be reviewed by the CAA. Apart from heli traffic transiting the zone, there is a chaotic situation with mixed ops in the general aviation area. As if that is not bad enough, many of these movements are R22's doing training. Heli operators should really be encouraged to relocate, and those who remain should be subjected to far more stringent control. Hopefully, I am totally wrong, but it seems to me that it is only a matter of time before there is major heli incident at the airport.

[farmpilot]

Why should the helicopters move?

Everyone's under positive control and everyone has a transponder. If ATC missed it then surely it's an ATC problem and not a helicopter problem?

[ab33t]

Just the fact that it is an International airport makes me think that heli ops close by with student pilots could be a potential risk

[reptile]

I tend to agree with Jetway.

We arrived in CPT yesterday just before noon. Cloudbase was at +-1000' and we were vectored for an ILS on RWY 19. About 20 seconds after breaking cloud we received at TA, triggered by a light fixed wing shooting circuits. I don't mind the the GA aircraft and fling wings operating into and around the airport, but a bit of traffic information from the controllers would be handy.

P.S. farmpilot - having a transponder and an assigned squawk code DOES NOT mean you are under positive control. At best, you are radar identified.

[nugpot]

The problem is with untrained heli pilots. They don't seem to realise that flying towards another a/c will irritate the TCAS.

On numerous occasions, I have had the frantic palmtree pilots fly directly towards my a/c because they will obviously pass behind, but the TCAS doesn't like it and shows a TA symbol.

Luckily the TA audio and RA's are inhibited, but the TA symbol does catch your eye and I would go around if I did not have the chopper visual, because I don't trust the chopper students to stay clear.

[EladElap]

Maybe if the all the papa charlies should just squawk mode alpha instead :}:}:}:}:}...

The controllers at George, are very good about warning scheduled traffic about possible TCAS traffic. But then again they are not nearly as busy as FACT, use procedural separation, and only one controller on one frequency.

The helicopters use the disused secondary runway to the south of the active, which is also pretty close to the main runway. Would be interesting to hear from the guys flying into FAGG if they have TA's often there from the trainers at George?

[EltorroLoco]

I dunno so much, maybe the answer lies somewhere in the middle.

Sure it's nice to have traffic info, but if they are separated, why should you? In Jhb when you have IF at 8000 and the VFRs at 7500 one would have to give traffic info all day instead of control instructions.

Methinx some (not all) of airline pilots with a TCAS just sit back with their feet up. When flying into busy airspace, TCAS is great, but situational awareness and diligence are better.

ATC can obviouly be better, with appropriate additional information and control instructions, but still it's a TA and not an RA, sorry if you dropped yr paper but you were still safe.

One last thing, airports are open to everyone, that includes fling wings, trainers etc. Let's not forget where we came from or embrace the diversity of flight - twin jets only would bore me to tears.

[groundfloor]

"Sadly, this is just one of numerous TA's experienced by fixed wing aircraft operating in and out of CPT. This can be quite alarming and distracting at a critical phase of flight."

It`s an advisory, so whats the problem? At least it adds to your SA, why should it "distract" you? Sounds like the crew are used to operating out of large a/c only airports - Heathrow, JFK etc..The most important instrument in any a/c is the window - use it..

As for the TCAS bleating "Traffic Traffic" within a CTR at the critical phases of flight - the one I am used to only gives a visual filled in white diamond - perhaps the mode selector needs to be in the correct position for take off and landing, that would be TA only?

[reptile]

As for the TCAS bleating "Traffic Traffic" within a CTR at the critical phases of flight - the one I am used to only gives a visual filled in white diamond - perhaps the mode selector needs to be in the correct position for take off and landing, that would be TA only?

Really?

Α filled diamond shown in either cyan or white, but not the same colour as
the own aircraft symbol, is used to depict Proximate Traffic. Proximate
Traffic is non-threat traffic that is within 6 nm and ±1200 ft from own
aircraft.

Your advice about mode selection also happens to be BS.

The Sensitivity Level (SL) on large commercial aircraft changes automatically between SL1 and SL2 depending on the aircrafts proximity to ground. In other words, the system will make automatic mode changes and the pilot only has to ensure that the transponder is switched on. Aural annunciations are inhibited below 500±100 feet AGL and RA's are inhibited below 1000ft +- 100 ft.

Therefore, it is quite possible to have threat traffic announced aurally and with a solid amber circle on the TCAS display while on an approach. And yes, despite your views, it is distracting to get a TA at 600' while on an ILS approach.

[Propellerpilot]

Maybe it is time, that the military finally releases a part of Ysterplaat to civil aviation. That would surly solve a lot of issues and bring in some extra life and revenue to a otherwise dead location.

Just another long term possibility to seriously consider...

[groundfloor]

From an Airbus FCOM: Pre take off and landing

"
TCAS () Mode selector TA or TA/RA
The FAA recommends selecting TA mode :

In case of known nearby traffic, which is in visual contact.
At particular airports, and during particular procedures, identified by an Operator as having a significant potential for unwanted or inappropriate resolution advisories (closely-spaced parallel runways, converging runways...). "


another one

"
ADVISORY INHIBITION
Some advisories are inhibited, depending on the aircraft altitude :

All intruders flying below 380 feet AGL, when the own aircraft altitude is below 1700 feet AGL.

All RA aural messages below 1100 feet AGL in climb, and 900 feet AGL in descent. In this case, the RAs are converted into TAs.

"Descend" type advisory below 1200 feet AGL in climb, or 1000 feet AGL in descent.

"Increase Descent" RA below 1650 feet AGL in climb, or 1450 feet AGL in descent
.
All aural messages below 600 feet AGL in climb and below 400 feet AGL in descent


...eish lotsa "stuff".

So when landing/taking off IMC in Cpt, the poppa charlies and angry palm tree`s won`t be a hassle when the field is IMC as only one might be sculling around special VFR.

If VMC there might be a few but why get "distracted" when VMC? If you shoot ILS`s head down VMC...thats your choice..:p.

[reptile]

...eish lotsa "stuff".

Your point???

TCAS mode selection into CPT will normally be in AUTO. The FCOM instruction you've so kindly posted does mention that TA mode should be selected when operating into airports with closely-spaced parallel or converging runways - none of these are applicable in CPT.

Secondly, into and out of CPT in IMC, the PC's and fling wings often are a problem. They do get special VFR clearance and very often. A lot of heli traffic requires runway or extended centre line crossing clearance when routing from the V&A heliport to the winelands and also local based light aircraft routing to and from the GFA's . As you may or may not know, it often happens that a band of cloud stretches from the Melkbos area, over the airport to False Bay while the rest of the peninsula and Boland is in brilliant sunshine. When this happens, local ATC is more often than not accommodating and allows special VFR traffic. It is specifically in these cases that ATC need to pass more traffic info.

The example I cited in my first post hardly constitutes a VMC ILS - head down or not.

Before you continue writing crap about TCAS/ACAS, take a couple of minutes and read the following downloadable document:

Introduction to TCAS II - US DoT and FAA (http://www.arinc.com/downloads/tcas/tcas.pdf)

[groundfloor]

Before you continue writing crp about TCAS/ACAS, take a couple of minutes and read the following downloadable document:

Eh? ok seeing as all the tech data was cut and pasted from an Airbus A340 certified document why don`t you tell them at:

ATTN. Flight Operations Support - STL
[email protected].


For instance no TA/RA or TA only mode selector? and the TCAS must be in AUTO? (transponders have ON/AUTO SELECTIONS)? So maybe your transponder/tcas is not as advanced? again from FCOM:

Mode sel TA/RA : Normal position.
Proximate and other intruders, TAs and RAs are displayed provided :

The ALT RPTG switch is at ON, and
The ATC mode selector is at ON or AUTO.
TA : To be used in case of aircraft degraded performance (engine failure, landing gear extended or approach on parallel runways). All RAs are converted into TAs. TAs, proximate and other intruders are displayed.

STBY : TCAS is on standby.

[reptile]

Eh? ok seeing as all the tech data was cut and pasted from an Airbus A340 certified document why don’t you tell them

1. I have no problem with the information supplied by Airbus - the problem I have is with the wannabee copying and pasting out of context in support of some stupid argument the he barely grasps himself.

2. This thread is now drifting way off target. Let's try and stick to topic of traffic separation and advisory service in and out of CPT. Please start a separate thread for ACAS/TCAS if you really feel you need to pursue this any further (as soon as your homework is done and mommy says its ok to use the PC...:ok:)

[groundfloor]

So because the Fixed wings all have TCAS now and all a/c have transponders there is a new "problem" of numerous TA`s in the Cape Town CTR especially around the extended centreline and approach path.

Question: Whose problem is it? ATC, the PC`s/ Heli`s or the Operators with TCAS. What must be done? How far behind/ ahead and at what alt must the "proximate" traffic be not to "irritate" the TCAS? Well from my info there is no definitive answer due to different models integrated into different airframes with different avionics. So even if you "educate" the VFR chopper pilot what will you tell him/her?

At present heli`s can no longer overfly the Apron so that leaves the tower or the thresholds behind departing arriving traffic. A well informed heli pilot will pass behind and slightly above - wake turbulence - How far behind is enough - obviously aim to miss...how far not to inititiate a TA - you tell me. ATC also want the Heli`s to expedite this exercise so they can keep the movements going.

ATC to inform of possible TCAS traffic - they do when they can - but hey nothing stopping you a la Etihad from asking before blasting off - It`s actually an Airbus recommendation to use the TCAS to help build up your SA before taking off or landing.

So Fixed Wings are "suffering" numerous TA`s at Cape Town during approach and landing in controlled airspace - the solution is to do away with the other traffic?

[Shrike200]

Technically, ACAS ranges aren't really relevant to legal seperation are they? I mean, why should ATC care (other than as a courtesy) about exactly when some instrument in your cockpit starts bleating? All they need care about is whether the traffic satisfied the requirement of being 'seperated'. If that can be proven to be true, then ACAS warnings are no more than nuisance, but not proof of transgression, and thus there isn't a situation that needs 'fixing' (other than maybe taking a little more time to note who's flying where, and maybe asking ATC about them). Flying into Lanseria presents the same problem. SA has to be built up in a very proactive manner when in the FALA TMA/CTR, so WHEN you get the 'Traffic, Traffic!', you know what it's referring to at least.

[Tinytoon]

There is no mention in any ICAO DOC that ATC has to pass TFC info when there is tfc close to other that could result in a TCAS TFC alert. I agree is a nuissance but...
If anyone is no happy, it can send a request for ammendment to the ICAO council.:}

[birrddog]

Is it me or does this sound like someone having a bad hair day?

CPT is hardly the busiest airspace in the world, and I bet it must be really tough having two people flying the plane and share the workload.

Is that second pilot too busy getting their makeup ready on final approach for the R&R stop in Cape Town, and thus too busy to have eyes out side to look for those scary helicopters and maintain some situational awareness?

The heli-ops in CPT are some of the most professional in the world, the training first class, and there is always attention to not scaring the (apparently easily scared) f/w pilots, and working with ATC for separation and noise abatement.

Would knowledge of helicopter holding / crossing / manoeuvring points and procedures at CPT be a benecificial addition to your pre-flight briefing to help understand what to expect when you see rotary wing traffic and trying to anticipate how that affects your situational awareness?