ATP for copilots

[wanabe2010]

is the bill passed?


There's another piece of legislation that may have an impact on your career path as well. The House passed a bill (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c111:7:./temp/%7Ec111j2mfMv::) five days ago that requires an ATP certificate to fly for any passenger carrying airline, which means that co-pilots will now be required to have a minimum of 1,500 hours total flight time instead of 250. While it was rather rare to be hired by an airline at 250 hours, many regionals required at least 500 to 800 hours to be hired last year.

[ab33t]

There was another piece of legislation that was being comcidered a while back something about MCC training all done on a sim and then you qualify as a fATP .
That 1500 hours would work at the moment but if the market were to pick up I dont think you would have enough FO

[bfisk]

Oh, there will be enough FOs. There just won't be enough FOs willing to be screwed around with like people have to put up with today!

[southflyer]

Anyone jumpseat on an RJ lately???

Surely you will see the need for at least the 1500 airline hours.... and not just a paper ATP with just "instruction given" PIC time on it...

[jimmygill]

There was another piece of legislation that was being comcidered a while back something about MCC training all done on a sim and then you qualify as a fATP

Is it a combination of committee and consider?

[atpcliff]

Hi!

The House version of the bill passed with ATP required. The Senate version has not passed, and it currently has not ATP required. When it passes the Senate they will have to reach a compromise with House before the bill gets passed to the President.

Also, the FAA itself has put out a Notice of Proposed Rulemaking, and has asked about the ATP requirement, and if the 1500 hrs should be reduced for various college courses, etc.

If the FAA invokes a new rule, that Congress approves of, then the Congressional bill will not need to become a law.

We are all waiting....

cliff
NBO
PS-the FAA's Crew Flight/Duty/Rest new rule is now due out in March? If it changes the way most of us think it will, virtually ALL of the use Part 121 carriers will have to hire more pilots, especially the regionals!

[Shiner Pilot]

Any more news on the above bill?

SP

[bfisk]

Anyone jumpseat on an RJ lately???

Surely you will see the need for at least the 1500 airline hours.... and not just a paper ATP with just "instruction given" PIC time on it...

How will a person get 1500 airline hours, if 1500 airline hours is required to hold the liscence to fly an airline? Or did you mean that the PIC should have at least 1500 airline hours?

[cjslondon]

By Jerry Zremski
NEWS WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF
Updated: March 13, 2010, 6:44 am / 2 comments
Published: March 13, 2010, 12:30 am


WASHINGTON — Senators have reached a compromise to dramatically increase the number of flight hours new commercial copilots need to get a license, though the figure falls short of what the group Families of Continental Flight 3407 was seeking.
Under a deal brokered by Sen. Charles E. Schumer and announced Friday, new co-pilots would have to have 800 hours of flight experience in specific, rigorous conditions, up from the current 250 hours of general experience.

[weasil]

The Senate bill has a lot more detail to it from what I've read. For instance, it requires the FAA to implement this rule within a certain time frame - and also says that if the timeline is not met the requirement will automatically revert to 1500hrs for copilots. It includes multicrew experience and other operating experience such as flight in icing conditions before being employed as a first officer at an airline.
Of course the House version might be the one that gets included in any final bill or none of this could pass so nothing certain yet.

[flyhelico]

H.R. 1586 Oberstar Amendment Summary
Pilot Qualifications: Requires airline pilots to hold an Airline Transport Pilot (ATP) certificate (1,500 minimum flight hours required). Requires the FAA to raise the minimum requirements for the ATP certificate. Requires pilot training for effective performance in: an air carrier operational environment; adverse weather conditions, including icing; high-altitude operations; and a multi-pilot crew. Enables the FAA to consider allowing certain academic training hours that may increase the level of safety above the minimum requirements to be counted towards the 1,500-hour ATP certificate requirement.
House Joins, Re-Passes FAA, Safety Bills

Press Release
House Joins, Re-Passes FAA, Safety Bills
Merged authorization bill sent back to Senate

March 25, 2010


By Jim Berard 202-226-5064

In an unusual amending process, the House today combined and reaffirmed support for two important aviation bills and returned the blended bill to the Senate, setting up the possibility of a conference committee to reconcile the Chambers’ differing versions of the legislation.

By a vote of 276-145, the House amended H.R. 1586, the Federal Aviation Administration Air Transportation Modernization and Safety Improvement Act of 2010 and ordered the bill returned to the Senate. In the process, the House replaced the Senate’s aviation language with the text of H.R. 915, the Federal Aviation Authorization Act of 2009, and H.R. 3371, the “Airline Safety and Pilot Training Improvement Act of 2009”, both of which passed the House last year.

The action sets up the possibility that the Senate and House versions of the bill can be reconciled in a conference committee or by other means.

The current FAA authorization was due to expire in 2007, but has been kept in force through a succession of extension bills. The current extension expires March 31, but a bill to extend the authorization through July 3, 2010 passed the House earlier this week and is now pending in the Senate.

Following are the prepared remarks by Rep. James L. Oberstar (Minn.), Chairman of the Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure, and Rep. Jerry F. Costello (Ill.), Chairman of the Subcommittee on Aviation.

FLOOR STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE JAMES L. OBERSTAR
MARCH 25, 2010
...
Modernizing the air traffic control system, increasing capacity, and ensuring small communities maintain access to service are all important issues, but none of these issues could exist without a safe system. To this end, this amendment includes the provisions of H.R. 3371, the “Airline Safety and Pilot Training Improvement Act of 2009”, which improves aviation safety by increasing pilot training requirements, addressing pilot fatigue, making pilot records easier to obtain, and strengthening FAA’s safety programs. This legislation was developed as a result of the crash of Colgan Air Flight 3407, where 50 people tragically perished outside of Buffalo, New York, on February 12, 2009. In October 2009, H.R. 3371 passed the House by vote of 409 to 11.

...

Importantly, this bill also amends the Railway Labor Act (RLA) to clarify that employees of an “express carrier” shall be covered by the RLA only if they are employed in a position that is eligible for certification under FAA’s rules, such as mechanics or pilots, and they are actually performing that type of work for the express carrier. All other express carrier employees, such as truck drivers and baggage handlers, would be governed by the National Labor Relations Act (NLRA). This change would remove the disparity in current law that Federal Express drivers are governed under the RLA, which requires organization for collective bargaining on a nationwide basis, while drivers for the United Parcel Service (UPS) and other express carriers are governed by the NLRA, which permits organization on a local basis. This provision was debated in the Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure and agreed to by a recorded vote of 51 to 18.
FLOOR STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE JERRY F. COSTELLO
THE HOUSE AMENDMENT TO H.R. 1586,
THE “AVIATION SAFETY AND INVESTMENT ACT OF 2010”
MARCH 25, 2010

...

Second, H.R. 1586 as amended, provides consistency in collective bargaining rights throughout the express carrier industry by allowing employees working on the ground and driving trucks to organize under the National Labor Relations Act, which enables employees to organize at the local level as opposed to at the national level. Workers who are directly involved with the aircraft operation portion of those companies, like pilots and mechanics, would continue to be under the jurisdiction of the Railway Labor Act.

In addition, this legislation also includes one of the strongest aviation safety bills in decades, H.R. 3371, the “Airline Safety and Pilot Training Act of 2009”. This bipartisan legislation was written and introduced by Chairman Oberstar, Ranking Members Mica and Petri and me last year. The legislation was introduced after hearings and roundtable discussions and with the input from the families of those who perished in the Colgan accident in Buffalo, the pilot groups, airlines, the National Safety Transportation Board (NTSB), the DOT Inspector General, and Members of Congress.

Throughout 2009, the Aviation Subcommittee held hearings and roundtables on safety issues related to the Colgan accident, culminating in the introduction of H.R. 3371.

Regional airlines have been involved in the last seven fatal U.S. airline accidents, and pilot performance has been implicated in four of these accidents. Our bill took action to strengthen pilot training requirements and qualifications.

There are five important provisions I want to highlight that were originally included in H.R. 3371 and in the bill before us. First, to address pilot qualifications, the bill increases the minimum number of flight hours required to be hired as an airline pilot. Currently, a first officer only needs a Commercial Pilot’s License to be a pilot, which requires a minimum of 250 flight hours. There is a consensus that 250 hours is simply not enough experience to be an airline pilot and that safety would be improved by raising the standard.

Under our legislation, all airline pilots must obtain an Airline Transport Pilot (ATP) license, which is currently only mandatory for an airline captain. The ATP requires a minimum of 1,500 flight hours and additional aeronautical knowledge, crew resource management training, and greater flight proficiency testing.

The legislation also strengthens ATP qualitative minimum requirements such as demonstrating the ability to function effectively in a multi-pilot environment and training to fly in adverse weather conditions, including icing.

Second, we mandate several outstanding NTSB recommendations related to pilot training that were discussed at our hearings, such as those on stall and upset recovery and remedial training.

Third, to ensure that airlines can make informed hiring decisions, the bill requires the FAA to create and maintain an electronic Pilot Records Database. The database will allow an airline to quickly access a pilot applicant’s comprehensive record for hiring purposes only.

Fourth, fatigue has been on the NTSB’s Most Wanted List since 1990. The bill directs the FAA to implement a new pilot flight and duty time rule, taking into account the operating environment of today’s pilots and scientific research on fatigue. As part of the rulemaking, the National Academy of Sciences is tasked with studying the effect of commuting on pilot fatigue. In addition, the bill requires air carriers to create fatigue risk management systems to proactively mitigate fatigue.

Finally, the bill requires all Internet Web sites that sell airline tickets to show, on the first web page display, the name of the air carrier operating each flight segments of a proposed itinerary.

[atpcliff]

Hi!

To answer the earlier question:

If the House (1/2 of the Congress in the US, the government body that creates laws...the other 1/2 is the Senate) version of this bill stays intact, then yes, BOTH the Capt AND the FO of a Part-121 (Delta, Mesaba, Southwest) will have to have their ATPs, to fly any passengers. That is the FULL ATP, NOT a frozen one. To get your ATP in the US, currently, you need 1500+ hours of flight time.

All new hire FOs, to Mesa, for example, flying a Dash 8, will need over 1500 hours and will have to have their ATP to work there.

cliff
LFW

[chongololo]

It looks like it's gone back for re-negotiation.
The 800 hours they bargained for may or may not stand.
We shall see.

[atpcliff]

Hi!

What the Senate said is that 800 hours is the MINIMUM, and that if the FAA does NOT change their rules, it AUTOMATICALLY goes to 1500 hours.

The House of Representatives (the other 1/2 of Congress, where the US laws are made) said they do NOT agree with 800 hours as a minimum, and that 1500 is the minimum.

So, when they are working on a compromise, the 800 hours is the MINIMUM floor, and they may require more hours, up to a ceiling of 1500 hours.

Either way, new First Officers will need a LOT more flight hours to reach the minimums than they do now....the minimum for a Commercial License in the US are now about 188 hours of flight time.

cliff
LFW

[flyhelico]

is it not 190 h on part 141?

I think they will set the minimum at 1200h for first officer.
This time is already for PIC in part 135.

[Shiner Pilot]

Hi
I am a British ATP Licence conversion, did my check-ride and passed, however, I studied the Part 135, will this have a huge effect with regards me trying to get a job with the airlines over here?

Cheers

SP

[SNS3Guppy]

Shiner Pilot,

None at all.

[Shiner Pilot]

Many thanks

SP

[Neptunus Rex]

Remember the days when you had to have 700 hours to qualify for a UK CPL? Seemed to work.

[Shiner Pilot]

Yes, it did work, you now have to take an ATPL skills test too.... Which was a bit boring but who cares when you have the "Green Book" in your hand.

[weasil]

Hi
I am a British ATP Licence conversion, did my check-ride and passed, however, I studied the Part 135, will this have a huge effect with regards me trying to get a job with the airlines over here?

Cheers

SP

No - noone is ever going to ask you which exam you took (135 or 121) - it doesn't matter. All ATP's are equal. However - you may wish to study for any employment exams/interviews you might be planning on taking. For example some airlines use ATP questions (part 121 stuff) as part of their pre-employment testing.