Go fly a caravan or......

[digitalsoul]

What is the best...? A job on a twin turbine with with a chance of 1 or 2 flights a month...ratings and training by the company. Company don't fly a lot...charter
OR
A job, right hand on a Caravan, fly about 80 to 100 hours a month... What's the best way to go?

[Agaricus bisporus]

RH seat in a single pilot aircraft - ie Caravan is logged as passenger time. Ain't no column in any logbook I've seen (apart from junior jet club) for that. After all, what would a second pilot in a Caravan find to do, except look out of the window???

[digitalsoul]

u mean to say that all those van flyers started right away on the left hand seat with their 300 hours, no previous gas turbine experience...and carried pax? I mean eventually i am going to get rated on the aircraft and checked out on it...... but for begining i don think any operator in their right mind would put you in command right away in their van with 300 hours piston time....

[Journey Man]

I'm not sure the operators would object too much as long as you weren't a berk and the insurance companies would sanction it. As it is you'd probably need a minimum of 1,000 hours to get insured as PIC of a van - and no doubt it's closer to 1,500 hours. I'm sure that would also have some turbine time requirement attached as a cooked engine is pretty pricey.

AFAIK, the van is twin-crew in many countries, especially for any night work. How that translates if you're trying to get those hours recognised on another licence is a different kettle of seething worms. And as has been said, you'd probably get tired of operating the flaps and doing radio calls 800 hours, unless the view is spectacular and there are future opportunities available within the company.

[ab33t]

You will not fly left seat until you have 1000hrs on the caravan if its the same company Im thinking of . If you have JAA CPL/fATPL you would not even be able to log the time on the caravan if you do not hold a TR so you would have to pay for your own TR. If you are looking at getting any meaningul work twin turbine is the way to go .

[ab33t]

If you do decide to go caravan please pm me the lead for the twin turbine .thanks

[Journey Man]

You will not fly left seat until you have 1000hrs on the caravan if its the same company Im thinking of . If you have JAA CPL/fATPL you would not even be able to log the time on the caravan if you do not hold a TR so you would have to pay for your own TR. If you are looking at getting any meaningul work twin turbine is the way to go .

If you're on a local licence, by an authority that requires multi-crew operation on the Van, why would you not log it? It may not count towards your JAA ATPL, but that doesn't mean you wouldn't count the time on your resume. Obviously you're talking about Susi, but there are a fair number of other Van jobs around at the moment so might be another operator.

[digitalsoul]

I would have gone for the twin, but these guys don fly at all...you are looking at around 2 or 3 or 1 or none hour a month.... they already have 8 pilots for their twin...two aircraft but mostly one is used....

[ChiyaWena]

I might be wrong but the way i understand it, is that if the operator or type of operation itself requires more than 1 pilot, the operator must nominate another pilot and that pilot is entitled to log the flight time. how you do that i don't know. the time might not be worth much but that flightcrew member is still allowed to log the time.

part 135 says that IFR or night flight requires a min of 2 pilots. unless in the case of a 'turbojet', a bunch of other certain requirements have been met. a Van ain't no turbojet and under the conditions mentioned it can't fly without a 2nd crew member. same as an aircraft that is certified for 2 crew uses a P3 for long haul flights. the P3 is entiteled to log the entire flight time.

bear in mind that a King Air and even a 1900 are also certified as single crew aircraft. so what's the difference with logging time as an F/O on those aircraft? in terms of logging F/O time on a single pilot aircraft that is. i know some people don't agree with it but it is done and recognised by the CAA.

bottomline is that there is nothing wrong with F/O time on Van's. it's all learning adding to a pilots experience and you are contributing to the operation. i'd rather hire a pilot with 400 hours on van's in the last 6 months than a pilot with 25 hours on a king air over the same time.

6 months as an F/O on a Van and i bet you'll get into a company that will also sit you in the right hand seat of another 'single pilot' aircraft and do more than 1 or 2 hours a month. it might just have another engine.

go for the Van and enjoy the flying, and by the way, i've never even sat in a Van. so no bias here.........................

[digitalsoul]

i appreciate this much time...thanks. keep the post coming, maybe also if there is someone who started out on a van like am about to...he could also say something...

[Journey Man]

UK CAA will recognise FO time on the Van as long as operator and DCA supply a letter confirming local regulations require twin-crew operation.

[Woof etc]

I would go with the twin turbine and get something else (instruction etc.) to keep the hours ticking over. Caravan pilots are dime a dozen - the twin turbine job might not provide lots of hours now, but it is a foot in the door and when something better comes along you are rated with some experience. And the rating is free!

Is it a certified multi crew turbine? What type?

This is also a twin turbine.....

http://www.coolorwhat.net/blog/images/29/o_CriCri.jpg

[ab33t]

I would not want twin time in that thing , where is the remote control

[oompilot]

Take the van job, there are plenty around and that’s what you want, a rating on a common plane. In SA the rule is quite clear. From SA law,

(8) Any appropriately rated pilot occupying a pilot seat as co-pilot of an
aircraft requiring more than one pilot under the type certification of the aircraft,
or as prescribed by the regulations under which the flight is conducted, must
log the flight time as co-pilot

So the law says log it. But if you look at ATPL requirements…

For the purposes of sub-regulation (1), in the case of single-pilot aero-
planes operated by two pilots according to operational requirements as ap-
proved by the Commissioner, both pilots must have successfully completed the multi-crew co-operation training as specified in this Part.

So if you have completed a MCC you may also count the time toward a higher licence.

Remember you van rating will be a P1 so technically you can fly all your hours from the LHS and gain the required experience in the correct seat but still log it as P2 as the Captain is sitting in the RHS and taking responsibility for the flight. So I would log, as the new log books accommodate this, P2 single engine time and in the remarks column put something like flew from LHS.

[Spidaman]

I agree whole heartedly with Oompilot, alot of pilots today are situated in very good airline jobs that started their careers on a van and you can ask any ex van driver and they will tell you that it is one aircraft that they miss flying the most so i say go for it and enjoy it while it opens doors for you....

[digitalsoul]

Thanks lots. I think van route is the way to go. lots of flying...loving the flying side..I appreciate more advice. thanks

[NovaScotian]

I'm in Canada which I gather has much different rules than the UK but I started right seat on the van and that lead to the right seat on the PC12/45 which lead to the left seat of the van which has lead to the right seat of the B1900D. Here in Canada you can log the time (we recive a pilot comptency check (PCC)) for the right seat, although I believe to use the time towards an ATPL you need a letter from your operator stating that the aircraft was operated as a two crew airplane or something like that. I dont know if the UK has the same PPC/PCC as we do.

[togabutton]

Go fly the van. My first exposure to turbine time was gained in the right seat of the van in 1997 in the bush. My total time back then was also quite low. Shortly after flying right seat in the van I found myself in the left seat, then the King Air 200, the 1900, a Citation 1, the 737-200, 747-400 and the 777.

Everybody has to start somewhere and the journey will always be different. Perseverance is key though. 80 to 90 hours a month, even if it is in the right seat of the van, will give you far more exposure to flying than 1 to 2 hours in a twin. Some other opportunity will present itself and you will be better placed to take advantage of it. I still love the van. Good luck with your flying and enjoy it while you can. Don't be in too much of a rush to fly heavy iron.

[Springbok614]

great post togabutton!

i started in the right seat of a van and soon ended up in the left seat of a twin turbine.

now i fly from the right seat of a jet and miss the days flying a 208!

it is really ironic that one has all these worries at the start of your career and sometimes you look back and think "how the hell did i get here so fast, i wish i was still flying in the bush!".

[austra1998]

yes...heavy iron...as he says, its boring as hell!
i'm flying an A 320 now and i do not know what to do with myself when i'm at work!

missing the van and the african bush!:-(

take your time...

austra

[Gooneybird]

Simply my advice but go for the most hours at your stage. Be happy to be employed too. You can get your first 1000 hours however you like, after that you'll find more doors open.