assisting disabled passengers in an emergency

[Thames virtual]

My husband and I have just had an excellent flight LHR - Miami and back courtesy of Virgin Atlantic. My husband is completely deaf and walks with great difficulty with crutches (he uses a wheelchair to the aircraft door, but can walk from the door to his seat if given lots of time). Getting up from the seat is a major performance, even with a bulkhead seat for extra legroom! On loading we get on first, and on unloading get off last, which suits us fine.

I was wondering what happens if there is an emergency, such as a crash, where everyone has to get out quickly. And I know we're not supposed to carry anything with us on the slides, but if he doesn't take his crutches, he won't be able to walk/stagger away at the bottom.

What do you expect the disabled person and any accompanying person to do in an emergency landing, and what are the cabin staff able to do to help, given that they'll have rather a lot on their plate?

TV

[WHBM]

This is one of those points in life where you have to look after yourself. If there is a sudden incident which requires rapid evacuation (eg Air France in Toronto, everyone out safely in 2 minutes, but aircraft destroyed by fire) then each person has to take their own responsibility. Everyone will do their best, but you do have to think about any particular limitations you may have. It's an extremely rare event, and my guess is that you think the minimal additional risk is worthwhile.

I would expect any person who is going to take the time of 10 or more other passengers exiting, to exit after the others, just like the normal unloading you describe. If it's any consolation I don't think there's a Captain or FO around who would leave the aircraft before you do. If there's a need to improvise, it will happen.

[gooneydog]

It's an interesting dilemma a "Sully" type water landing could affect any crew on any day Any aircraft with up to a dozen wheelchair pax in a water landing could be difficult I suppose the pilot would have to drown with the "infirmed" pax to be a hero Not an answer just a comment

[TightSlot]

This is going to sound bleak, and I've struggled with some nicer way to present it. The 'you' in this refers to both you and your husband.

In a full-scale Evac, you will (hopefully) come off last. The last thing that the crew need is for you to attempt to exit with all the other pax, as in doing so, you will temporarily block, or at least slow, the flow rate to an otherwise usable exit There is a good chance that if you attempt to leave earlier, you will be knocked over and trampled underfoot. The slides can accept you in any position - head first, feet first, face down etc. Any position away from the standard will not be comfortable, either at the time, or afterwards, but it will get you out alive.

Once down and at the foot of the the slide, your husband can be dragged (hands/belt/jacket) by somebody else away from imminent danger. Crutches are not essential for life, and carrying them represents a significant hazard to others, as well as your husband, in the cabin. The odds are that in the fast descent and then sudden slowing on the slide, the crutches being carried would fly loose and could injure otherwise fit people assisting at the foot of the slide.

We would expect you to assist and take responsibility for your husbands exit from the aircraft, but, if possible, we would assist you. The central driving concept behind an evac is 'Greatest Good for Greatest Number' - CC need to be focussed on maximum flow rate out of the doors they are manning (womanning?) to the exclusion of all else. Once down the slide, somebody will help you at some point.

In a catastrophic evac, the pilots will usually exit by the forward doors, or even by the flight deck windows. Crew are instructed to check the cabin area near their doors if possible before leaving the aircraft.

Smoke and heat may well be your greatest dangers. If there is smoke, while waiting to get out, cover your face and get low. Headrest covers, blankets, pillows will all slightly slow smoke ingestion. The floor has illuminated lights that, if crawling, will lead you to, and then indicate, the exits.

In a ditching, all of the above applies, however your lifejacket will stabilise an incapacitated or disabled person in the correct position once in the water. The light on the life jacket helps others in the sliderafts to locate people in the water and therefore to pull them into the sliderafts.

[Piltdown Man]

Tightslot - A very honest and forthright explanation. TV - the question you have raised is a very worthwhile and sensible one which I'm afraid, the majority don't even consider. But the same questions should be asked for every form of transport and their relative safety records. Whilst the answer provided by Tightslot might be pretty grim, it may well be that flying is a risk worth taking - but as an informed couple.

PM

[rmac]

The content matter of this discussion is why I refuse to let an airline seat my children in different rows from myself and wife as they have tried to do from time to time.

[PAXboy]

Absolutely rmac. You can only rely on yourself and those emotionally bound to you. I expect that, tne of the greatest dangers in an evac will be other pax. They will not know what to do, they will take hand baggage with them, some will be obese. Human panic is not good to observe, leave alone be inside of it.

[lowcostdolly]

I couldn't agree more paxboy/rmac. It would probably be every man for himself in this situation!! You would look after you and yours as the survival instinct would kick in.

This is exactly why the CAA issue "guidlines" which most airlines will call "rules" if required to enforce them on boarding re the seating of children near their parents. For those that don't on the day and it's a problem for you personally i would start quoting those guidlines which any parent can find on the CAA website.

It would impede the flow of an evacuation if Dad goes to search for junior who is seated a few rows away and he would. I know as a Mum I would!

Nobody (Pax or crew) unless they have been there knows how they would react in this situation. What I do know (from experience) is the pax will probably not be studying their safety cards and a lot of airlines include this as part of their drills.

The post by Tightslot is spot on re the realities on board in this situation for pax with restricted mobility

[herman the crab]

Although the OP's husband boards as a disabled person it is worth considering that your loved one maybe become disabled during the 'crash' and would be in a similar situation requiring the same sort of help... maybe everyone should do a little preflight planning instead?

HTC

[amf1966]

I find some of the statements made here troubling.

This is a subject close to my heart being a frequent traveler
with my family and being a disabled person using the definition of the word.

TightSlot said:
"In a full-scale Evac, you will (hopefully) come off last. The last thing that
the crew need is for you to attempt to exit with all the other pax, as in
doing so, you will temporarily block, or at least slow, the flow rate to
an otherwise usable exit There is a good chance that if you attempt to leave
earlier, you will be knocked over and trampled underfoot.

lowcostdolly said:
"The post by Tightslot is spot on re the realities on board in this situation
for pax with restricted mobility"

Now then, the implication here is that disabled pax would "hopefully"
go off last - would this actually translate to prevention of evac to a disabled person
by flight crew?

I am a total realist regarding the situation on board that would necessitate an evac.
I have absolutely no doubt that the "every man/woman for themselves" would
be a total reality.

And here's my point.

I was deliberately vague about what makes me disabled at the start of this post.
Most readers minds would immediately have pictured
a wheelchair user, or someone of "restricted mobility" as lowcostolly said.

I am, in fact, visually impaired, and otherwise very physically capable being
6 feet tall, strong and actually an ex-Olympic swimmer.

Being visually impaired, I'm probably better capable of finding my way out
of an aircraft full
of smoke and dust than someone who has never had to cope without vision.
The implication that I would slow the evac or be knocked over and trampled
I strongly challenge.

So, what would be the view here amongst flight crew?

Would it be, that guy is disabled, so leave him 'til last...
"no, please wait sir, you're disabled"....

I wouldn't actually take any notice of you, I'd be out (after my wife/daughter)
before you knew what was happening I'm sorry to say; as I
have an equally strong sense of self-preservation to anyone else.

I suppose the real question is, how does the view on disabled passengers
actually come into play at the point of an evac?
Do you apply blanket rules/guidelines, or would you take
a more individually tailored view of each pax?

All comments accepted with interest.

PS - please don't be politically correct, say it like you believe/think it, so
we can further this debate usefully.
I post here without ranker in order to better understand.

[Bealzebub]

amf1966

There is really no clear cut answer. Tightslot has given a very comprehensive reply that clearly outlines the general strategy. As you say there are varying degrees of disability that may apply to individual passsengers, some of which may be completely unknown until a situation arises. In addition there are almost limitless scenarios that might involve an emergency evacuation.

The crew are primarily tasked with controlling the exits and directing the evacuation through them, however that might well be modified depending on the nature of the accident or incident. It is therefore impossible to take a tailored view of each disabled passenger that would encompass every possible scenario. Clearly the aim of a successful evacuation is to get everybody off the aircraft with the minimum level of injury. Where that is not possible, the aim is to achieve the maximum level of success in this regard. Normally the most critical element is time, and it follows that anything that may impede the evacuation flow will increase the time taken to complete the task, and therefore it has to be accepted that there might have to be compromises made with individuals who would impede that evacuation.

A disability in itself would not necessarily result in somebody being the last person to be evacuated, although in the most extreme cases that might obviously be the case. Nobody is suggesting that somebody with a disability should be required to wait. As you say you were deliberately vague with the degree of your own disability, indeed you still are. Visual impairment might range from being totally blind, to mild presbyopia. Even in the case of the former it is highly likely that the individual would be able to use their own resources to either evacuate relatively normally, or to be carried along in the general flow.

When it comes to individual passengers, it is only those that cannot help themselves to any degree, that would remain at the end of the process and would then be assisted wherever possible. The emphasis being of course on wherever possible.

[Final 3 Greens]

amf1966

Please get medical help to get that chip off your shoulder.

The OP described someone who walks with great difficulty with crutches and that was the context of the replies from Tightslot and Lowcostdolly.

I am sorry that their comments give you some trouble,as they seem entirely reasonable to me in the context of the original question.

[amf1966]

Bealzebub, thank you for your constructive reply.

I take everything you say onboard and agree with you.

Essentially, you can't plan for every contingency that might arise and your
primary objective is to get the most people off the plane in the shortest time
- however that is best achieved given the circumstances as you see it.

I better understand this now.

Final3greens - forgive me for broadening the discussion in order to better
understand the situation - I felt it was worth exploring.

[Two-Tone-Blue]

As a pair of pensioners, we have always had "a plan" ... perhaps because we're both ex-military?

I, being stronger and bigger, will drag my wife to the nearest exit [routes pre-planned, we ALWAYS read the cards and listen to the briefing].

If anyone is in our way through [I]obvious disability, we'll drag them with us to the best of our ability. Anyone trying to retrieve their kit from the overhead lockers will be flattened to the floor. Tough world, isn't it!

We brief every time we fly. I'm a boring old git.

[lowcostdolly]

amf 1966 bealzebub has said most of what I wanted to say to you but has probably been far more articulate than me!

Apologies for not making clear I was responding to the context of the OP as I think Tighslot was as well.

A couple of points I would like to pick up on here pertinent to what you describe as your "disability". CC are not allowed to use this term as it's not PC. We have to say "Passengers requiring assistance" which can mean anything from a full blown paralysis to slight visual impairement or deafness.

Please be assured that any SCCM worth their role will know how much assistance you need because they will ask you. If you boarded my flight the ground staff (if you have notified them) will tell me you are "blind" and will pre board you. I will either then brief you myself on safety and exits or I will delegate this to a crew member to do this. Part of this briefing will be for the CC to establish how much you can actually see and to tell you how many rows you are from an exit. Despite the fact we have the free for all seating policy I will allocate you a seat so I know exactly where you are in the event of an evac.

In a pre planned emergency landing all PRM's (passengers with restricted mobility) are allocated in theory an able bodied person (ABP) to assist them. If they are travelling solo thats a big ask for a stranger sitting next to them as their survival instinct will probably kick in. It's better to rely on the PRM's travelling companions but there is always the chance they could become incapacitated. In an unplanned emergency it would be everyone for himself.

If you could make it to the top of the slide I wouldn't make you wait because you are "disabled". I would push you down it just as I would anyone else!! If you had your white stick I would take that from you as it could damage the slide and make it unusable for anyone else or it could fly off and injure someone.

If you couldn't get to the slide and only if it was safe for me to do so I would try and assist you. If I felt my life was in danger I would be off and telling the airport fire and rescue service where you were sitting.......sorry if that seems harsh.

Two-tone-blue has a good approach :D:D

Also a general observation here. If anyone requires assistance please tell the CC and please be honest about how much you require. To us it isn't just about telling the dispatcher to telex Malaga re the amount of wheelchairs. We have to tell the Capt re PRM's in case we do have an evac and there are regulations re the amount we can carry.

The amount of pax whom I see being lifted onto the plane at LGW as a PRM only to skip off the plane the other end because they don't want to wait for their assistance is shocking. It also diverts limited resources away from those who genuinely need it.

[VS-LHRCSA]

I flew for a regional carrier for a while that required any disabled passengers to be briefed before every departure in what to do in an unplanned emergency evacuation, depending on their situation. We were required advise them of the nearest exit and to ask how we would lift them without causing any further pain or injury (if possible). We also told them to remain seated until other passengers have evacuated, then we would take them out as we ourselves evacuated.

In a pre-planned evacuation, there is the option to line up Able Bodied Passengers to assist with the disbabled person.

[Thames virtual]

Thank you all for your responses. They've basically confirmed what I expected (I'm a doctor, and have been involved in enough emergency planning scenarios to appreciate that overall priorities are not necessarily the same as an individual's priorities).

My main concern was indeed the mobility problem. His complete deafness is also a problem (you can't lipread in the dark!) but there's not much you can do about that.

I'd been thinking about what information should be given to disabled passengers who require assistance to evacuate and must admit I've been surprised to find that VH-LHRCSA's description

I flew for a regional carrier for a while that required any disabled passengers to be briefed before every departure in what to do in an unplanned emergency evacuation, depending on their situation. We were required advise them of the nearest exit and to ask how we would lift them without causing any further pain or injury (if possible). We also told them to remain seated until other passengers have evacuated, then we would take them out as we ourselves evacuated.

has never taken place on any flight we've been on. The middle of an emergency is NOT the time to start briefing passengers on what you are going to do with them, especially when they are deaf.

This statement
We also told them to remain seated until other passengers have evacuated, then we would take them out as we ourselves evacuated.
I think is a good way of putting it. It clearly makes the point that the cabin crew will hopefully be there to assist the passenger to safety (albeit after everyone else has gone), rather than giving the feeling that "your rather unfit middle-aged wife will have to struggle on her own to get you out".

TV

[Hartington]

I'm always impressed (and grateful) how cabin crew are reported to react in emergencies.

The one time I found myself in what I considered to be mortal danger I was in Bolivia when a revolution broke out and the factions were taking pot shots at one another. After a couple of days the locals were out on the street so I figured I could join them. Walking across the main street in La Paz as a tank came up the road. Everone elese ignored it so I did.

Until, that is, someone popped his head out of the turret and started shooting over our heads with the machine gun fixed there. At which point everyone (including me) scarpered quick.

Nothing special you're saying, I'd probably do the same. But I wasn't alone yet, in that moment, I forgot my family and went for cover.

The point I'm trying to make is that we none of us know how we'll react until we face the situation. I always listen to the safety brief and work out where the exits are but when it comes to it will I remember? Will I help anyone else? I'm not sure.

[InSeat19c]

Hi TV !

All I an add to this is the view of a friend of mine who is disabled and travels all over the place with her husband and two young children.

She can't walk and gets carried on and off the plane by her husband and she has told him that if the worst happens, he is to get himself and the kids out and leave her behind.

It sounds very grim I know and I'm sure that the crew or someone nearby would do their utmost to help her, but they've had a "worst case scenario" conversation and it's probably one we should all have even if we aren't disabled.

Obviously the crew have a duty of care to all their passengers, but you just don't know what the situation might be that you might find yourself in and what the crew might be doing.

You and your hubby should probably have "that chat" too.

Sorry for such a depressing post x

[SassyPilotsWife]

TV, thank you for your post. What you have done is not only ask very important questions, but you've also given these professionals something to think about and place themselves in the position that they don't want to ever be in but now, they have some foresight on it and will hopefully ask more questions or simply know the " plan of action".

What you need to do is ask yourself " what if we are in this situation, how will we handle it ourselves" Reason being is that as grim as it may sound, chances are you will be last ones off and that is not meant in a derrogatory way but in what is called the START system or Universal Triage Response to an MCI and an Emergency Evacuation of an aircraft becomes an MCI ( Mass Casualty Incident) because the resources available are less than the patients ( passengers in this case) that need help.

As a very experienced US Paramedic with not only 911 experience but also experience responding to MCI calls and experience with the MCI command system and FEMA response, it all boils down to saving the most viable people involved. We have to look at it as saving 10 rather than trying to save 1. Without direct training as far as a cabin crew professional I can only vouch that most are trained in the same way and will have the same reactions and response. Here are my recommendations.

First, as any other potential emergency ( especially house fires) is HAVE A PLAN OF ACTION. First of all is pre planning. When making your travel plans, make sure that the airline knows ahead of time any disabilities so that they may place the passenger in the best possible seat available with regard to possible emergency evacuation and possible notification to flight deck crew and cabin crew of this passengers limitations ( same as if your booking a flight for a diabetic who needs a special diet ) Upon check in at the airport, remind the CSA of the physical limiations so that they can notify crew upon check in and modify seat accordingly. This may seem redundant and unnecessary, but just ask those on Sully's flight if they thought their day would wind up in the Hudson. Lastly, notify the CC when you board the flight of any disabilities, especially those that could hinder and/or slow down emergency evacuations and it never hurts to become friends with the passengers next or near to you. I can tell you from experience, when i talk to my fellow neighbors in the cabin and they find out i'm a Paramedic, they have sometimes felt more at ease sitting next to me and have often shared with me any pertinent information such as " dad's a diabetic so if we have an emergency, he has insulin in his bag" . As a Paramedic i prefer sitting in an aisle row ( not for the extra leg room) but to know that if required, i can definitely handle the job and assist the CC upon their delegation and direction. I hope you never have to use this information.

[WHBM]

It seems therefore that we have come back to the beginning, evacuating the 10 AB passengers first, before the disabled passenger.

The only issue here (starting on our plan of action as recommended) is that this seems to mean it is therefore appropriate to seat these passengers far from the exits, at the midpoint between them, and on a widebody in the centre seats, so any emergency evac will be in a "logcal order". Which is the opposite of what many expect. There is still a widespread belief among passengers that those disabled should get the emergency exit seats, which is not always rebutted by the crew on board, but even then pax are often allocated the next row, to be "close" to the door. Should this be changed ?

It costs the airframe manufacturer a fortune to design and manufacture the emergency exit provision (it was a key reason behind how the A380 turned out the particular shape it is), and there is also a very large operating cost in all the crew training, etc. There needs to therefore be some more thought given to where passengers of differing mobility standards are actually placed relative to these exits, to use them most effectively.

[VS-LHRCSA]

Seating passengers with reduced mobility near but not at an exit does make sense. If they need assistance evacuating, after the other passengers have evacuated, then they are handy for the door, to be assisted. Otherwise the crew member or rescue personnel would have to, as you suggest, walk into the mid-cabin, which could put their lives at risk.

If they are near the door and ready to go, it's safer for all concerned. If the crew member is incapacitated, they are more visible to others who may be able to assist them off. If absolutely necessary and the only option was to crawl or drag themselves to the exit, it would be one or two rows as opposed to 7-10 rows.

[Pontius Navigator]

As a pair of pensioners, we have always had "a plan" ... perhaps because we're both ex-military?

I, being stronger and bigger, will drag my wife to the nearest exit [routes pre-planned, we ALWAYS read the cards and listen to the briefing].

If anyone is in our way through [I]obvious disability, we'll drag them with us to the best of our ability. Anyone trying to retrieve their kit from the overhead lockers will be flattened to the floor. Tough world, isn't it!

We brief every time we fly. I'm a boring old git.

As I read through the earlier posts I thought how we would react, having already made appropriate plans - footwear, clothing etc. Then I read TTB.

Snap. Interestingly our backgrounds are remarkably close although we probably have not met.

He says "we'll drag them with us . . ."

Now in a crash that I am aware of this person suffered a broken thigh. At the time it was thought it was occasioned by his seat collapsing and that he was lucky. Subsequently it was determined that the break had occurred as he was assisted out of the window by a size 10 boot,

[SassyPilotsWife]

Placing a pax that has a mobility disability ( not just legs, but could include vision as well ) would definitely benefit being closer to the exit rows. I would recommend he/she be sat closest to the exit row in an aisle seat and make sure who ever is in the exit row ahead knows of the pax respectively and discreetly. If i were in the position to assist this pax, I would try my best to evacuate this pax #3 so that 2 other pax were able to assist the disabled pax once he/she reaches the ground.

Its too bad that the airlines don't allow automatic exit row seating for those in fire/ems/police by showing proof of licensure. Chances are it won't be needed, but it will sure help ! It will also allow CC to know who to go to in the even of a medical emergency that they may require extra help. I have been on a couple flights where I did have to assist in medical emergencies and would volunteer anytime, even if i'm seated in steerage :) I saw where some airline ( Lufthansa i think ) was going to give extra miles for Doctors who would respond to inflight medical emergencies if needed. That is extremely unethical and illegal in some parts of the globe to accept " gifts" for services performed. If you have the skills and training, just help !

[Pontius Navigator]

Its too bad that the airlines don't allow automatic exit row seating for those in fire/ems/police by showing proof of licensure.

What about aircrew?

As for seating geninely disabled pax, they are generally boarded first and disembarked last and seated in row 1 (for short haul) where they are near the CC and the emergency exit door rather than a small window exit.

Problems arise with those undeclared disabled pax - the size 20 plus etc who take up rather more space than the average. They should be nearer the main doors too.

[Scumbag O'Riley]

Fortunately these accidents are so infrequent as not to be something to worry about, but I'm sure that computer simulations would prove that tp maximise the number of survivors you put the more able bodied ones nearer the exits and less able bodied ones further from the exits.

Wasn't one of the lessons learned from that manchester fire on the runway is that to maximise your individual chances of survival you fight your way to the exits, going over other peoples heads if need be? Such survivors had issues with guilt afterwards, but they lived to feel that way.