Near miss question.

[testbenchdude]

Hi all,

I was wondering if anyone could give insight into the number of near misses that take place at airports these days. The reason I'm asking is that one of my flights was almost involved in one last year, but as hard as I looked after-wards I could not find any news about the incident at all. I only just recently found this site, which is why I'm posting about something that happened last March.

March 6th, 2009. Northwest flight 1488 from Minneapolis to Philly, Airbus 319. I was on the left side in a window seat, and I could very clearly see another plane coming in for a landing on one of the opposing runways at the same time as we were. We were over the tarmac, and it sure looked like the other plane was, too; at the last possible moment (I thought) the other plane stopped descending and started climbing, and we landed normally.

I'm sure I was not the only person to see it, and as I was walking off the plane I remarked to the pilot (who was standing at the front, watching us disembark) "How about that near miss, huh?" His eyes locked on me, his smile slightly diminished, but he said nothing, and I didn't want to hold up the passengers behind me, so I kept on walking.

Does this sort of thing happen very often? I'm afraid enough of flying as it is without having to worry about this new (to me), additional hazard.

Thanks,
Mike

[Skittles]

I imagine he didn't say anything because he was thinking 'What near miss?'

If you are not a pilot/otherwise interested in aviation/hold a general knowledge, then a routine go-around or missed approach can often appear as a near miss, when in fact it's a perfectly standard and regular occurrence. Near misses are more common in small private aircraft, which don't have aircraft collision systems etc. All big jets however, do and are carefully regulated by ATC.

I don't think it would have been a near miss. Just because planes are in close proximity doesn't make it a near miss. Hope that settles your nerves.

[Avman]

testbenchtube, "near misses" do not go unreported. What you perceived to have seen and what actually happened can be two very different things. If, indeed legal seperation could have been compromised, ATC or PF would have initiated a G/A. It's a perfectly standard and safe procedure which in effect avoids the "near miss" scenario. It was also likely that the G/A you witnessed had in fact nothing to do with your own flight. Many US airports are extremely busy and move a lot of tin. Sometimes things don't quite go according to a very complex plan. This may result in a G/A but does not constitute a near miss.

[testbenchdude]

Thanks Avman and Skittles; I'm not up on the terminology. It shook me up a bit though as both planes seemed to be heading toward each other at the same altitude, rate of descent, and speed, and the other plane couldn't have been more than 100 feet over us when we passed where the runways crossed. Like I said, I don't know what technically constitutes a near miss but that sure seemed too close for comfort for me.

Cheers~

p.s.: I should probably say that I'm pretty interested in aviation, and was stationed at NAS Pax River as an IFF tech in the mid 90's; even so I am only just slightly more informed than the general public.

[chevvron]

Why do people (especially the press) persist in using the misleading term 'near miss'? If two aircraft nearly miss each other, obviously they must hit each other. The correct ICAO recognised term is 'Airprox'.

[Fernanjet]

Why do people (especially the press) persist in using the misleading term 'near miss'? If two aircraft nearly miss each other, obviously they must hit each other. The correct ICAO recognised term is 'Airprox'.

not neccessarily true......

a "near" miss......is meant to describe 2 aircraft missing each other but in "near" proximity... (airprox)

standard seperation is not a near miss as they are not "near" to each other....

a collision is a crash.....

Simple!!

[K.Whyjelly]

March 6th, 2009. Northwest flight 1488 from Minneapolis to Philly, Airbus 319. I was on the left side in a window seat, and I could very clearly see another plane coming in for a landing on one of the opposing runways at the same time as we were. We were over the tarmac, and it sure looked like the other plane was, too; at the last possible moment (I thought) the other plane stopped descending and started climbing, and we landed normally.

Not knowing the full details and relevent ATC instructions to the aircraft involved it will never be possible to ascertain what the other aircraft went around for (if indeed you're assumption is correct).

The only thing that comes to mind is a common (and sometimes fatal) operation in the USA known as LAHSO. see below to understand how this works................


AOPA Online: Land and Hold Short Operations (LAHSO) (http://www.aopa.org/asf/publications/lahso.html)

[Sky Wave]

Don't the US have SOIR's?

Simultaneous Operation of Intersecting Runways.

I guess this is what the poster saw as to whether the go around was caused by a lack of separation or for some other operational reason is anyone's guess. It is however definitely not a near miss.

Many aircraft go around every day because the preceding aircraft did not clear the runway in time, it's not a near miss, it's a small inconvience which is inevitable when trying to achieve maximum use of the runway.

SW

[crispey]

""Don't the US have SOIR's?""

They certainly do.Try watching from the departure lounge windows at KSFO and marvel.

[Hartington]

The place I usually go to watch San Francsico is Coyote Point. A couple of miles down 101 heading towards San Jose. It juts out into the Bay and you get a nice view of the landing stream onto 28L/R with the opportunity of taking pictures of the paralell landings that make it look like every one is a near miss. And in the distance you can watch the take offs on 01L/R. At busy times you get landing 28L followed seconds later by landing 28R and as soon as the 2nd landing crosses the intersection departure on 1L (with a left turn out) followed by a departure on 01R (with a right turn out). Of course the actual order varies a bit in terms of which happens first each time L or R. Then there's an occasional hold in the landing stream while something with a heavy load needing more runway than the 01s provide to allow a departure from one of the 28s.

If they ever get permission to reconfigure and separate out the runways it will be a pity from the point of view of a watcher.

[Northbeach]

Mike,

As the Captain of my airliner standing in the doorway greeting/thanking my passengers for flying for us, I have absolutely no idea who you are, or what you are like as you walk past me. Most people are wonderful, however a fraction of the crowd isn’t. When I have nearly 200 people on board there are going to be one or two of them that are potential problems.

If somebody I don’t know walks past me and were to say “How about that near miss?” I too would be taken back. Your perception of what happened and the reality of the situation may be completely different. What did you want the Captain to say? Let’s say there were a loss of separation and the two planes came closer than they should have do you expect her/him to say: “Yeah, I just loaded my pants too-we could have died, I’m shaking like a leaf also?” As you walked by this individual and dropped a verbal grenade, with no time for him to answer your question as the line of passengers keeps moving, how in the world did you expect the commander to respond?

Next time try this angle. Mention to the flight attendant that you have a flight related question you would like to ask the flight crew after the flight. Wait until everybody else is off the plane. Present yourself to the flight crew in as non-threatening was as possible. If you present yourself in those terms they may be more likely to try and “help” you rather than get defensive about the possible ramifications of the conversation that is about to take place. Show them that you are not part of that fraction of the population that makes their life on the job infinitely more complicated. Tell them you are frightened/uncomfortable about something you experienced on their flight, and ask them to help you understand what you experienced that is troubling you. If you want their answers/help then not imply that their conduct of the flight was dangerous/unprofessional, even if you feel that way.

Give your flight crew no reason to see you as a “threat” or a member of that small percentage of the travelling public that makes their life on the job unpleasant. Acting this way will go a long way in getting the information and customer service that you want.

Saying “How about that near miss” as you walked by is a “lose/ lose” proposition for the flight crew. “His eyes locked on me, his smile slightly diminished, but he said nothing”, you put him in a terrible position. He is a “risk manager” and by not responding he allowed the moving line to take this “risk” (you-your motivation/personality) off his jet. I would have probably done exactly the same thing and thought to myself “there goes another one."

Respectfully,

Northbeach

[Hyperborean]

Quite agree. The question,"How about that near miss?" falls into the same category as, "Are you still beating your wife?" There is no safe answer, so no answer is safe. In any event perspective can be very misleading, even to experienced observers.

[crispey]

HARTINGTON

Are you near there by the way?Lovely place

I've stayed at a large hotel-Clarion?-which sounds as if it's pretty close to the point you mention.Yes,brilliant spot.

I was jump seating once on a B744 on an approach to 19L.The go around was quite spectacular when an arriving 757 on 28R seemed to get too close.I wonder who paid for the additional fuel?

[adverse-bump]

people like you shouldnt be allowed windows!