Jet2.com BALPA Recognition VOTE

[Spikedog]

This is now on the front page of the BALPA website:

REGISTER YOUR SUPPORT FOR RECOGNITION AT JET2.COM

As part of the process towards delivering recognition it is important to demonstrate that this goal has the full support of the membership and we call on you to participate in the survey and HAVE YOUR SAY.

• The main purpose of the petition is to demonstrate to the Company that BALPA does accurately represent the views of the majority of pilots at Jet2.

• It is available for ALL pilots at Jet2, ie BALPA members and non-members, to register their wish to see BALPA as the pilot's representative body.

• It is totally confidential and the names of individual pilots who sign it will be held on the secure server and only used statistically for the purposes of demonstrating the desire for recognition. Everyone can sign knowing that the result will be presented purely in terms of the percentage of pilots requesting BALPA recognition.

• It will be necessary to enter your details simply to verify that the vote is accurate and could be used as proof of backing for recognition. If evidence was ever needed to follow the statutory route to recognition rather than the much preferred voluntary route the voting details would only be released to independent officials who were representatives of the CAC, the Central Arbitration Committee, who adjudicate in such cases.

• It is extremely important that you register your support for recognition and make sure that your colleagues, both members and non-members, register their support as well.


BALPA - Jet2.comSupport (http://www.balpa.org/Jet2-comSupport.aspx)

[Spikedog]

Keep voting guys/girls!

[unablereqnavperf]

Allow this shower in at your own peril gentlemen and ladies all it will do is cost you more money each month!

[al446]

Would you like to put some meat on the bones of your prejudice?

[JW411]

al446:

Would you like to put some meat on the bones of your prejudice?

[al446]

jw411 - I have no, nor have I demonstrated, prejudice. I do however have a belief that a workforce is better protected by organising amongst themselves a collective that speaks and negotiates for them all and that the employer should recognise that collective, as enshrined in law. A quick trawl of my past posts will demonstrate that I am no recruiting sergeant for BALPA, simply a realist with a background in trades unions. I was simply challenging a post that takes a stance against this without but without posing any argument of justification. I would have thought my view of that being prejudice is reasonable.

OK with you?

[maat]

"I do however have a belief that a workforce is better protected by organising amongst themselves a collective that speaks and negotiates for them all and that the employer should recognise that collective, as enshrined in law"

It's been tried. From the days of the Fleet Rep Meetings to the present day Crew Council - it hasn't worked.

[al446]

If at first you don't succeed.........

Also very different climate these days.

[Looker]

I agree with Unablereqnavperf

I've just resigned from BALPA after 12 or so years of being a member. When I needed them to back me against a clear breach of contract by my employer all I got was hmmms, haws and a lot of hot air. In the end I had to rely on home ins legal cover to fund a solicitor to take up the case against my employer.

I used to dismiss the Dan Darers accounts of BALPA now I've experienced it first hand.

I'm sure you can find something more reliable/fun to spend £60 a month on.

[Captainkingkong]

Pop it in your pension with some tax relief worth about £90 a month multiply by 12 months and then how many years left to work ? A tidy sum me thinks:D

[maat]

I used to dismiss the Dan Darers accounts of BALPA now I've experienced it first hand.


What happened to the Dan Darers Looker?

[Looker]

Maat

Life's too short to spoon feed everyone who is too lazy to use the search function.

[Crosswind Limit]

Well it seems clear that not everyone supports Balpa recognition.
Put simply, if you support it then sign and if you don't then don't sign.
I'm not sure if everyone understands exactly what Balpa recognition would mean. I admit that I'm not entirely sure myself. My current understanding is that with Balpa recognition the Crew Council would become an elected Balpa Crew Council consisting of Jet2 pilots and that management would be legally obliged to consult with it on policy changes affecting Jet2 pilots. I don't think that if recognized all Jet2 pilots would have to become Balpa members and pay the subs.

[al446]

First off, I am not a pilot, member of BALPA or a recruiter for them.

I don't think that if recognized all Jet2 pilots would have to become Balpa members and pay the subs.

You are totally correct, under UK law nobody is obliged to join any collective unless it is a regulatory body such as BMA. This was brought in years ago to outlaw the practice of closed shops. As a trade unionist I am glad this happened as we must fight our corner harder to maintain our membership. The downside has been seeing those colleagues who enjoy the fruits of our strife but decide to save the paltry amount of subs by remaining non members. I have had several approach me when the sh1t has hit the fan asking for advice/representation. Too late.

As far as I know recognition would mean that the company would have to consult the union on changes of T&Cs, at present they may give you 90 days notice of imposing a change and it is up to each individual to fight this. With recognition the co must recognise the collective body and negotiate if the membership find it unacceptable. In the past the CC may have been consulted with recognition it must be, if so accepted by BALPA (more on that later).

It would also give you the right to take industrial action if agreement cannot be reached, without recognition every individual is exactly that and cannot withdraw labour without breaking their contract of employment, as a member of a recognised union you may do so with certain important caveats. This is a weapon that is not deployed lightly, unions exist to keep their members in work rather than out. The possibility of it being used is usually more than enough for companies to think twice before trampling over T&Cs, I can think of at least one loco operating in UK that has fought tooth and nail to avoid recognition, possibly because of this.

As I am not a pilot I have no idea how you elect your CC but would have thought that the majority on there already would be people with the best intentions towards those who elected them so probably ideal candidates for union membership and leadership.

Do bear in mind that any union is shaped by its members so you, if you joined, would be BALPA with a voice equal to all others. It is not the AA where you join to expect something, you join to be a part of it and participate to whatever level you wish. Nor is any union the answer to all the problems within their sector of operation. I have read several times on other threads about probs in other locos and the question "What is BALPA doing about it?", I think of CTC/OAA within EZY. The answer is they can do nothing overtly but can work behind the scenes and improve things to a certain extent even though they do not act directly for members.

I would also like to say as a bystander that the previous perception of BALPA being a home for BA only no longer applies, the chairman is an EZY pilot.

I have no idea how the T&Cs at J2 have held up but you seem to have done very well in comparison, recognition would simply mean that you keep it so.

[Captainkingkong]

Industrial action mentioned by the 3rd paragraph above, no wonder PM goes into meltdown.

[maat]

Life's too short to spoon feed everyone who is too lazy to use the search function

You don't know then.

[al446]

Industrial action mentioned by the 3rd paragraph above

Should I have left it later perhaps? then you post would have read "Industrial action mentioned by the 4th paragraph above", no difference to my mind. Or perhaps left it out? That would really have been remiss of me, would it not? It would be misinformation by omission.

A question was asked and I answered it in the least partisan manner I could, you may disagree with me and that is your perogative but I consider it better that people being asked to commit towards a certain direction be as well as informed as possible. I note that you express no other point of view apart from your imaginings of PM, who should have nothing to fear, especially if he reads my qualification of it shortly after. I do hope you read it as many who have a very closed mind on these matters may just glance over it. NO union wants to cause disruption in the workplace.

[tocamak]

al446, very good post indeed which highlighted especially the sense that the union is controlled by its members which also means that if the members are not prepared to get involved then really no-one else can be expected to do it.

[Crosswind Limit]

aI446, thanks for taking the time to explain. I'm sure it will help many to understand that BALPA recognition may help prevent errosion of T&Cs for Jet2 pilots without it spelling the demise of the airline.

[al446]

Thanks for that Crosswind.

[tonker]

Too complicated for me:bored:

[Captainkingkong]

Now don't get me wrong i am ambivalent on this BALPA thing, however there does seem to be a suggestion that as long as you have BALPA then your Terms and Conditions are protected and guaranteed and will not to be taken away over the coming years. Is that true ? As that seems to be what the BALPA team are suggesting ? This is surely a misrepresentation of the truth as all they can ever do is ATTEMPT to maintain your terms and conditions. It takes two to dance and therefore requires a willingness on management side to listen to the negotiating team be they BALPA or the CC. Now the implication i think from previous posts is that BALPA WILL protect your terms and conditions and i am really at a loss to understand how this is guaranteed especially in the current market place. If i have misunderstood this please correct me, if BALPA are not guaranteeing it then they need to say so, as i say i stand on the fence at the moment and the full facts should be stated. Clear facts not promises that cannot be kept, if BALPA can offer something then we need clear facts, clear offers, clear objectives as we are being asked to invest our salary in joining this organisation, personally i would like to see the small print not the big head lines ie "WE will save your T's and Cs" as thats emotive stuff, hard facts will sway this argument.

Now don't jump all over me as a BALPA basher, i have been a member in the past and have seen some of the good work BALPA have done but have also watched as they have been unable to save colleagues in other airlines as they "go to the wall" or have terms and conditions reduced.

I also have one more question for those in the BALPA know as personally its a bit of a deal breaker in my view. Did the chairman of BALPA take a pay rise this year and did any of the senior BALPA staff ? Yes i expect abuse from that question but i would like to know the answer and its an honest question. No i am not a member of management just someone who wants the facts (not emotive chanting) laid before them before they make a decision. I look forward to the feedback from my colleagues more in the "know" than me..

[eagerbeaver1]

http://www.balpa.org/Document-Library/Publications/Annual-Report/BALPA-Annual-Report-2009-12-04.aspx

Try this.

[tocamak]

Captainkingkong

Did the chairman of BALPA take a pay rise this year

He works for Easyjet so I suppose if their flightcrew got a payrise the answer is yes. He does not get paid by Balpa. If however you mean the General Secretary who is a Balpa employee I don't know the answer.

On the more general point made about Balpa guarantees then I agree totally with what you say and it is important that false promises are not made. I still think that having an organisation behind you which does have the experience and resources to defend your Ts &Cs is going to be better than a sole company employee committee.

[jet2.con]

BALPA will be able to give advice and legal support to our BALPA crew council when the inevitable tweeking of our T&C's next arrive.

How many letters have we had saying we've learnt by our mistakes? We will endeavour to do this and try to do that! These promises well meaning at the time of writing go to the wall when the operation gets tight on crews or the operation needs some extra slack. 3 rdo's? removed at a whim to make sure we had crews over the summer. A cap on leave over the summer was just put in place with no consultation! Again for the good of the operation but at the expense of our families and lifestyles.

Will BALPA sort it? I'm not expecting great things overnight or in the near future, just a support structure that our management will have to recognise and negotiate with. A support structure that has legal advise immediately at hand who we can turn to when my T&C's etc etc require attention.

My last point, if we think its bad now and we dont get BALPA the current warm cuddly world will be gone in the blink of an eye!

[al446]

To take your questions in reverse order -

I also have one more question for those in the BALPA know as personally its a bit of a deal breaker in my view. Did the chairman of BALPA take a pay rise this year and did any of the senior BALPA staff ? Yes i expect abuse from that question but i would like to know the answer and its an honest question. No i am not a member of management just someone who wants the facts (not emotive chanting) laid before them before they make a decision. I look forward to the feedback from my colleagues more in the "know" than me..

I cannot answer this as I have absolutely NO connection with BALPA, a trawl of my previous posts will show that I have long held the view that they should be subsumed into Unite, but I will make some general observations on your query.
I am a member of Unison and, while I may take a view on the level of payrise awarded to Dave Prentice it would certainly not be a deal breaker. What would matter is the effectiveness of that organisation in negotiating reasonable (or better) T&Cs for me, protecting me at work (legals etc) and whether they properly represent my viewpoint. The fringe benefits such as cheap loans I can do without.
I would ask you if you got a pay rise and if you did not why not? You would be a very rare creature if you did not aspire to one as I am sure your bills over the past year have risen, so it is with everyone. Unions exist to try to negotiate the satisfactory fulfilment of that aspiration so why shouild we treat our employees any different?

Your point re not saving others going to the wall - if the company goes bust then what can any union do to save it? What hey can do is try all means to ensure that the coffers do not get cleared out before the inevitable happens and ensure there is sufficient available to make proper redundancy payments. I say 'try' but never forget the debacle that was Robert Maxwell's Mirror Group, nobody saw that coming and nobody saw the books. Unions cannot do magic.

As to your main point. If anyone from any union offers you a guarantee of preserving or improving your T&Cs then you are looking at one really naive person, if so naive ask him/her to give you a personal guarantee backed with collateral, watch them run.
No union can give a GUARANTEE but those who in companies without the recognition of a strong union are certainly in a position where the company can impose revised T&Cs, including pay cut, by giving 90 days notice and they cannot carry out any collective action in protest without being in breach of contract. As employers are aware of this it may lead to dubious practices being carried out, many of which are extremely devious and can lead to individual breakdowns etc. A union, if run correctly, levels the playing field and allows each employee to be an individual also.
It also allows for a collective voice rather than the loudest in the crew room.
A further function is to meet with the employer and suggest ways forward for the business in good times and to protect their members in times such as now. An example of this is BALPA negotiating with BA in a minimal reduction of T&Cs for pilots when it was looking like BA going down the tubes rapidly, as opposed to what BA wished to impose. A further example is their involvement with EZY to improve the T&Cs of CTC pilots even though they were not obliged to do so.
I am interested in your use of ambivalent as in having feelings that draw you in opposite directions on this matter. As I posted previously, if you are a member YOU are BALPA unless you let a rabble take over, in which case more fool you and your colleagues, in which case I would say you have nothing to lose but the monthly subs and, hopefully, some time to fully participate, you may actually find that involvement invigorating.
Please remember we are a long way from the 'bad old days' of perpetual strikes on Merseyside or wherever and in a far more realistic world. I do find it sort of funny that the best the right wingers can do these days is to use images of the 60s & 70s to raise the spectre of militancy. That was over 30 years ago and it proves that they are fearful of a collective voice.

Hope this helps, awaiting incoming flak.

[Captainkingkong]

al446 lets start with the opening line you have absolutely no connection with BALPA now i am assuming you have no connection with Jet2 so in that case what do you have a connection to ?? As you have some very knowledgable union orientated responses and i would say are not sitting on the fence in this debate. i would like to know why ? Who ? And motives ?

The reason i asked about the BALPA management. The airline industry is facing its toughest time and employees are taking pay cuts, some captains are being returned to the right seat in some companies and therefore restricting the promotion of F/O's to Captaincy. Therefore by default the F/O does not get the salary rise they may well have q.e.d a pay cut. For the head or senior management of a representing body to take a pay rise in these times i would find just a little crass. That was why the question was asked. Now i am sure they deliver value for money but so do all the members who pay their monthly subs and those members currently taking a pay cut to watch those representing them arrive at a meeting knowing the senior management of that union took a pay rise for me would be a deal breaker....

The statement "going to the wall" was a maybe a little overdone, how about a company that is struggling as Excel did. Would the union offer a reduced set of terms and conditions for a set period to try and ease the company through that period. I have always thought that in the current climate when jobs in the UK are not clogging up the "Situations Vacant" in Flight International that 80% of salary is better than 100% of nothing and the nothing arose due to employee inflexibility prompted by a tough strong union negotiating position that trys to keep T's and C's fixed. That personally worries me. As i am sure most of the people who work at Jet2 are prepared to show a large wedge of discretionary flexibility if it were required on a large scale to keep the good ship flying the way it does. Whether that stance would be supported by a union ? This is the point that my uncertainty about the representing body advising the BALPA backed Crew council would worry me.

I would never suggest that unions can do magic or fire silver bullets but nor should they puport to do so to the more naive or less experienced members who are voting on this matter need a clear picture.

"I do find it sort of funny that the best the right wingers can do these days is to use images of the 60s & 70s" at what point did i or any of my colleagues become a right winger when debating the relevance of a union., this is an apolitical issue.

"Please remember we are a long way from the 'bad old days' of perpetual strikes on Merseyside" you stated however if you remember you also stated in your first post on this forum you that industrial action was an option in the 3rd paragraph of your opening gambit ??? So strike is an option or it isnt ? As for airline pilots striking, on the front of my license it states "Professional" and personally i would continue acting in such a fashion and no i am neither Right wing nor left wing. Seems you have a contradiction in your sequential posts.

"I cannot answer this as I have absolutely NO connection with BALPA, a trawl of my previous posts will show that I have long held the view that they should be subsumed into Unite, but I will make some general observations on your query"
My final point and i shall make isn't Unite the shower that's trying to take British Airways cabin crew down a dark alley and doing untold damage to British Airways long term profitibility with court cases that are lost before you even step onto the court steps?

re
British Airways, Union Hold Talks to Avert Strike (Update1) - BusinessWeek (http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-02-04/british-airways-holds-informal-talks-to-avert-strike-union-says.html)

So personally if BALPA are voted in the last thing i would ever want them to do would be to amalgamate with a more radical union such as Unite. So Mr/Mrs/Miss i appreciate that you are trying to help us all along in our decisions to vote and some of the information has been useful. However the terminology has for me an undertone of confrontation and "us and them" politics and maybe in times of richer pickings that may have its place. However in the current economic climate confrontation does not build strong airlines. Can someone with BALPA links please comment on what will be offered as part of the BALPA package for the 50 odd quid a month. I do agree with some fo your points that that the vailidty maybe a good working knowledge of employment law in negotiating apart from that i am not seeing a lot. Convince me ...

[al446]

To answer your first para, I have no connection with BALPA or J2, other than as an occasional pax but I do have an aviation background from my RAF days, albeit that that was a long time ago. I have been involved in trade unions for many years so you are right, I am not sitting on the fence. I think that all work forces deserve their legal right to be represented by a union of their choice to be recognised if it is the will of the majority of members (with certain caveats). My motives are quite simple and pure, if you guys get screwed then we lower down the food chain can expect even worse. I would have not entered into this fray had I not seen a thread running on recognition within RYR in which those who appeared to management stooges were giving out dubious information regarding the vote, I sought to correct this and the almost inevitable flak started. On here a question was asked and I sought to give a clear answer. Hope that clears that up.

Your 3rd para re Excel I thought I had covered in my example of BA.

I agree with you re silver bullets, that is why I am taking the time to try to give clear and unambiguous answers.

I also agree that this should be apolitical, unfortunately this has not been my experience on here, well certain other threads. I am far from a rabble rouser but have been accused of being so and in another thread the best response that could be achieved by another couple of posters was pictures of Red Robbo. I made that statement to try to avoid this kind of thing. In the same way that some naive people will seek to 'big up' a union others will try to paint it as militant. I prefer truth. That is a general comment and meant in no particular direction.

I consider it quite right and proper to advise that one of the tools open to unions is strike, it is the final sanction and no member considers it lightly but it remains that it is there. I do not gloss over it nor do I emphasise it.. You hold a certain view of professional, so do I. Others may hold similar or dissimilar views, if the majority of members hold views contrary to yours and decide to withdraw their labour temporarily reasoning that they are not being respected as either human beings or professional then that view will prevail. What you then do is a matter for you. I have yet to see where I contradict myself but I am sure you will enlighten me.

Re the BA/Unite dispute, I only know as much as you do having read it on here. As far as I can see, BA CC are represented by BASSA, a BA section within Unite and the decisions are being made by them as opposed to them being dictated by Unite. I have insufficient information on this dispute to form a view never mind comment on it. I was unaware of Unite being seen as a radical union.

You suggest that my posts have an undertone of confrontation, my intent has always been quite the opposite, that is why I mentioned the positive role that unions can play in companies, especially in times of dowturn. Every worker in this country simply wants to go to work in dignity and be paid fairly in addition to seeing their company thrive. That is far from confrontational.

Re your 2nd para, I stand by what I have posted previously.

[DjerbaDevil]

JET2 have recently added one B737 and one B757 to their fleet bringing the total number of frames to 33. Assuming an average of 10 pilots for each aircraft gives a total of approximately 330 pilots at JET2. If all 330 pilots become members of BALPA paying dues at say 50 pounds per month average that gives a total monthly membership fee to BALPA of 16,500 pounds every month, which is a yearly membership fee paid to BALPA of 198,000 pounds. Who's going to be laughing all the way to the bank then??

Exactly what will the JET2 pilots, possible future members of BALPA, get for that enormous sum of money of 198,000 pounds paid up every year for ever and ever..... Certainly they will NOT get their money's worth or anywhere near it. Most of that money, if not all, will be wasted in administration, glossy brochures and reports that no one reads, and paying union officials high salaries and their cars, their assistants, their secretaries, their offices and expenses, and all of that, a very long way away from Leeds/Bradford airport and the JET2 management. Most, if not all the 198,000 pounds in fact will be spent in West Drayton next to the prestigious Heathrow Airport no less.

If BALPA are so wonderful, they would do well to export their negotiating expertise to the Sandpit, where it's needed most. I am sure they would be made very welcome by the management and owners of QATAR, EMIRATES and ETIHAD.

With all certainty, we can be assured, it would not happen now, but when there were strikes in the "bad old days", it was the Union officials and their buddies who didn't need to send their wives out to work in order to provide for their families. No that that wouldn't happen now if there was a strike. Of course not. It would be the Union officials who would be the first to stop taking their salaries and would stop their NI contributions and send their own wives to work to bring in enough for feeding their families and paying the mortgage. Oh yes, and it would be the Union officials who would contribute to a fund from their own personal savings for the hard up strikers to be able to feed their families.... I am sure.... They ARE NOW all honourable gentlemen...

JET2's present recruitment drive and the offer of 70% salary (all year NI contributions too) for 58% part time work is a good offer. If they had work all year round, they would offer full time employment. If there was a shortage of pilots and an excess of fare paying passengers, all airlines would be making their T&C's more attractive for pilots. The truth is that the present situation is the reverse and most airlines in Europe are experiencing serious financial problems. What active actions is BALPA taking to help the management of UK airlines to get over these problematic times? Yeah, don't worry folks it's only a rhetorical question, I don't expect an answer from any BALPA official, sitting in his plush warm office watching the cash hitting the bank to guarantee HIM a life time job with a massive pension second only to a banker.

If management don't listen to a reasonable request, then your feet are the best negotiators, maybe not convenient today, but there's always a tomorrow. There are far better things to do with your 50 quid or better said 600 pounds of yearly subscription to any union, suggestions have already been made before in this forum. A reasonably intelligent pilot and confident of his own abilities, does not need anyone to stand between him and his employer to defend/negotiate his employment contract.

I quote from Ian Saunders, BALPA Chairman's letter of introduction to the BALPA report for 2009: "if you would like to see what life is like outside BALPA, just look at the case studies of Ryanair, Jet 2 and DHL"

In contrast to the above statement, overall things at JET2 are good without BALPA and the company doing much better than most with the management doing a good job protecting employment within the company by keeping it profitable and expanding and creating job opportunities. Suggestion: If Ian Saunders can sort out Easyjet, his own employer, whom he avoids mentioning in his letter, then he might be welcome to invite others to join BALPA. What did he do for the 137 Thomson pilots recently made redundant, who had previously accepted a reduction in salary in a last ditch effort to save their jobs? Were there any redundancies at BALPA head office to compensate for the loss of membership fees? Not likely, and probably an increase in staffing to pursue membership at other locations. Jobs for the boys are sacred.

"No, no, no, all lies!!!! Victimisation!!" They cry. BALPA is magnanimous and their Chairman and officials are honourable men and want the best for YOU and are not avariciously waiting to get the yearly membership fees of 198,000 pounds from JET2 pilots to help maintain their staff and plush offices at West Drayton just down the road from Heathrow Airport (nothing less) and would happily give all this up for a portacabin (unheated if need be) at Leeds-Bradford Airport to take up the representation of JET2 pilots for free, as they have been so badly treated by JET2 management or might be in the near future... or might not but, but, but YOU never know...

Must rush now to fill in my BALPA membership application form and give my bankers' details for the monthly sub of 1% of my salary to become a member. Don't wait holding your breath, BALPA union officials, I may take a while to arrive..... Ah yes, and thanks for NOT helping my steelworker Dad to support his family, when you called him out to strike. Of course he was only a member and not one of the priviledged elite within the Union! :E

Give us a break al446, you are all waffle and no substance and certainly not worth my 600 quid every year. I can do much better without you and the likes of you.

[B-727]

DjerbaDevil and co :

If you are employees of Jet2, then may I remind you there is a private forum for Jet2 employees on the BALPA website. Real names are shown and the forum is 100% secure to members. If your passionante about BALPA at or not at Jet2, you'll have the balls to show your real name..........

If you are not Jet2 Flight Deck members then I'd ask you to keep your opinions to yourselves.............. How can you comment on the T & C's of an airline and the role that BALPA could or could not play if you have no connection to the airline :rolleyes:??

For any fellow Jet2 colleagues, I'd urge you all not to listen to too many spoutings on PPRuNe and make your own minds up, for or against, from talking to colleagues or from the monthly Jet2 BALPA updates, as well as thoses from the airline. :ok:

[al446]

I was awaiting the incoming and here it is. I was going to ignore it based as it is on supposition to start and then goes into a rant but finishes with.


Give us a break al446, you are all waffle and no substance

From the Compact Oxford English Dictionary

• verb speak or write at length in a vague or trivial manner. • noun lengthy but vague or trivial talk or writing.
A question was asked on this thread, I answered and then gave further clarification when requested. No waffle.


B-727, I understand and respect what you are saying but some, such as Crosswind, do not seem to be members. It was to crosswind that I replied.