aeronautical engineering degree

[greyb33]

How well regarded is this degree within the industry when it comes to people recruiting pilots ?

[HolyMoley]

No more or less than a degree in any other numerate discipline, that is, no more than an A-level in maths or physics and a whole lot less than a fATPL and the ability to pay for your type rating.

[greyb33]

I have a A-level in physics and a as in maths. Just curious if it worth doing before a ATPL

[smith]

How well regarded is this degree within the industry when it comes to people recruiting pilots

About as much use as a chocolate fire-guard

[TheBeak]

Only do it if you want to be an aeronautical engineer for crying out loud.

[The African Dude]

Doing a degree is good in many ways, not just for becoming an engineer. As far as the basic minimum requirements for becoming a pilot go, it is absolutely not required in this country. In Canada and the US, as I understand, it is sometimes used as application criteria.

If you are interested in the subject matter and want to be educated beyond A-level standard, as I was, and are not in a hurry to get straight in to flying given the currently poor prospects, then go for the degree first. In the same way as a frozen ATPL is only the ticket to the starting gate for pilots, an engineering degree is, as far as employment goes, also only good for entry-level graduate work unless you have professional experience.

Hope that helps you a little, as I once pondered the same question.

Cheers
AD.

[stefair]

From my experience a university degree does have benefits.

I went to university because I wanted to. I wanted a degree as a ticket to a high paid job to secure a loan, which would have funded my flight training. Fortunately, my ol' man pitied me and helped me out so I could start flying while still attending uni.

University teaches you a lot of valuable skill which you can use later on in life, e.g. meeting deadlines, improving interpersonal com and so on.

I also wanted a degree to fall back on should flying not work out the way I wanted it to.

In terms of having an edge over other applicants in the job hunting process I think it's useless, at least with the airlines as ready entry. To make it into the sponsored programs it is more valuable. Apart from that, all it comes down to is hours, hours, and hours, and knowing people, at least in the GA.

To give you one more example from my experience. I have just been hired by an aerial photography company flying a little twin. They also want me to do office work, such as processing data, setting up their website, sales. Having a university degree helped me negotiate a much higher salary.

Would I do it all over again and go to uni? You bet.

[theycallmemaurice]

An aeronautical engineering degree is a fantastic asset to anyone considering a job as a pilot.

Im currently studying it in the university of brighton, and it makes me laugh to read people's replies on here saying it makes no difference , its useless etc. If you really loved flying and airplanes then it would be blatantly obvious to you that this degree is a fantastic one to have. not only do you get to study a vast array of exciting subjects but you actually understand everything about flight and how it happens which you wont learn from watching the discovery channel!

So if you are serious about becoming a pilot then this degree is for you. It will for sure and certain give you an edge in the interview process but on a personal level it will fascinate you. Don't listen to people who say otherwise because more than likely they will see it as a threat because they went straight to Jerez or Oxford out of school and will only ever learn how to be computer managers in an airbus, not like you who will understand the relationship between the 'bus and the sky!

Best of Luck , and if you would like to chat in more detail about the degree let me know and ill help you out, as i said im doing it at Uni of Brighton.

[The African Dude]

Maurice, I'm sure your input is valuable. May I only say that I am speaking from the perspective of somebody who has not only finished the degree but then actually gone through flight training afterwards (and the associated interviews).

I am sure that nobody here wishes to suggest your decision to do the degree was the wrong one, but it is a personal choice for all - the truth is, all the understanding of flight-related topics is covered in as much detail as necessary during the flight training programme.

Best of luck with your studies, I hope you enjoy them.

[CDR A320]

an engineering degree is always an asset. It would always be an alternate career option for if you dont land up your job as a pilot . I personally am a mechanical engineer and strongly feel that graduation is a must.

[theycallmemaurice]

African dude most guys today seem to care more about the uniform than how the plane fly's, so I'm saying that doing this degree should be a fantastic opportunity to study what you love, and not considered as 'the long way around' to getting a uniform.

For example you said that all understanding of flight related topics is covered in as much detail as necessary. I just don't see the passion for flying there.

If you talk to BA pilots or Aer Lingus ones they'll tell you that most of the F.O's recruited over the last few years have some engineering background.

Im not bothering to write on this forum for the sake of an argument, if I wanted an argument I could call my sister! :ooh:

[SpreadEagle]

I have a degree in Aerospace. I also worked as an engineer for Airbus for 4 years. I have my frozen ATPL. Do I have a job? .... drum role ... NOPE!

It is a hard degree, lots of hours compared with something like geography. The lecturers will find ways of sucking the fun out of even the most interesting experiments. I hated every minute of my degree despite loving aircraft. Its a very very hard degree. Would I do it again? Not for an FO seat with BA!

There's faster ways to get where you want and they all have a £ sign in front of them.

Good luck.

[206Fan]

Grey,

You can do Aeronautical Engineering Degree's that include pilot studies towards the PPL / ATPL.

Aerospace Engineering with Pilot Studies: MEng (Hons) ~ Undergraduate degrees ~ The University of Liverpool (http://www.liv.ac.uk/study/undergraduate/courses/H402.htm)

Dave

[The African Dude]

Relax Maurice :} I don't disagree with you. I'm merely drawing attention to the fact that, as far as recruitment of pilots goes (the original question), it's less than significant. The degree itself was an exceptional investment for other reasons though :) I will resist the urge to tell you to say hi to your sister for me... it sounds like I might have dated her once!

Edit to say: djfingerscrossed - is THAT where my bald spot comes from...

[Matt101]

greyb33,

Have you found somewhere that accepts just the AS for an engineering course, It used to be the full A Level was a pre-requisite.

University is great for many things and in the current climate is a fantastic idea given the likelihood of getting a job on graduation from an FTO is fairly slim right now.

Maurice,

Whilst I don't wish to contradict you too much and I whole heatedly agree that a degree is a good thing, the ATPL lessons go no further than GCSE/A-Level physics, and very basic Math.

Insofar as getting a RHS job, the Degree MAY help at initial screening but I highly doubt it (I got the job without one). What you actually need at the moment is a LOT of patience, the willingness to look outside the UK and have several thousand hours on type or a few thousand Euros to give to FR.

To be clear a degree is not a pre-requisite for employment - a licence is.

(But still go and get the degree - I left early and am completing mine via distance learning - thankfully it worked out well for me and I still got a couple of years of uni life which I wouldn't trade for anything!)

Best of luck!

[High-higher]

As far as I know, all the cadets that BA hand-picked from Flight schools (mainly oxford) have a degree in something relevant, although you really have to be getting extremely high marks in all your tests in exams and have a bit of luck for this to happen, but having a degree will increase your chances.

[kilafaki]

Having a degree is an excellent idea, and should be a requirement to all commercial pilots.:ok:

When you are planning a commercial flight you are required to have at least one plan B (an alternate), as you should have when planning other important things(LIKE YOUR LIFE). :ouch:

I think that the airlines have mixed feelings about highly educated pilots, the pros are that you have proven that you have some brain and an interest in technology.
The cons are that you have more balls than the desperate CTC/Oxscam victims and will be more difficult to bully and abuse. :yuk:

So overall it probably wont matter to an airline if you have a degree or not, but it could mean the world to you.

So a good plan could be to start studying for a degree, fly gliders and get a PPL, and when you have you degree you could take a look at the state of the airline industry and make your choice. :ok:

A bad plan could be to enlist in a integrated course at CTC/Oxscam, and when you have you frozen ATPL fork out another 30 KG for type-rating and line training, and then spend the next 20+ yers working double time as a taxi driver to repay the bank. :ugh:

[portsharbourflyer]

djfingerscrossed,

Actually very easy to get back into the engineering industry after a spell of flying (although as a contractor), got myself an engineering contract a day after getting laid off from my turboprop job mid 2008.

Also I knew another retired airline pilot and former engineer who returned to engineering after about 25 years in flying. Further to this I have another colleague who got a 737 job for a year and walked back into his engineering position after getting laid off.

So aero engineering can be a very good back up career and also a route to funding the frozen ATPL, however only do it if you think you could happily spend thirty years in engineering if the flying doesn't work out.

[Abagnale]

theycallmemaurice (http://www.pprune.org/members/241788-theycallmemaurice) ,just out of curiousity,how many fliyng hours have you got?What??? Did I hear this correct?Zero? And you are trying to tell me that people without degrees are just computer operators? Why would they listen to a pimply youngster,who thinks that he rules this world just because he went to University?Until you get at least 1000 hrs on something heavier than a cessna 172 please make me a favour-shut your mouth and think before you write,because if someday you're going to make it to a RHS(and I think you'll never make it,haven't got the right attitude),you'll have to think twice before speaking or making any decisions...I personally have a degree,but it doesn't make me better than anybody else,I've seen people with degrees and without and generally those with a higher level education perform better,but there are many exceptions.In current climate not getting a degree wouldn't be a very clever idea and it looks like this tendency will remain for a couple of years.

[theycallmemaurice]

abagnale, sounds like you need to get laid :ok:

[206Fan]

Just to add..

I noticed the Cathay Pacific Airlines cadet pilot programme requires that you hold a Degree in their requirements. I know this is different than going straight into the job itself but just thought I would add.

Cathay Pacific - Careers : Careers Home (http://www.cathaypacific.com/cpa/en_INTL/careers/flying/cadetpilot_requirements)

********************

Maurice,

Are you studying the Aeronautical Degree?

Dave

[portsharbourflyer]

Djfingers crossed, I should add it will depend what your specialisation was in industry as to how easy it will be to get contract work again. On the mechanical side of things there has been no real radical changes in the last twenty years, also when you consider how long some projects lasted (Merlin, nearly 20 years from concept to production) then a 5 to 10 year break would not see you that far out the loop.

But on the Avionic/s side of things a five year gap would probably have more of an impact.
Anyway I have returned to engineering on two occasions, first time after completing the initial training (cpl/MEIR fATPL) and the second time as described before.

Theycallmemaurice,

If some one intends to be pilot then I too find it staggering that they wouldn't study an aviation related degree. However once you start searching for flying jobs you will soon become very demoralised at how little credit you will get for an aero degree. A high percentage of the pilots out there will only have studied the technical side to the ATPL level; therefore it shows you can still safely operate an aircraft without properly understanding the technical aspects.

[Scuba Steve]

Hey,
newbie here and a recent aero eng graduate. Im not working in the industry but I guess I graduated at the wrong time! All i can say is i would highly recommend an aero eng degree even if you want to fly afterwards. You'll gain good life experience in college and be that bit maturer once your finished...hopefully!;) Its always good to have a backup plan, which is why I did it. Plus it shows you can commit to and succeed a tough 4 year course. It may not be the deciding factor on landing in the FO seat but it sure as hell wont be frowned upon! :D

[kilafaki]

If you are planning to become a professional pilot you should start thinking like on. ;)

A professional pilot does the extra effort to make sure hies plans can be completed, he carries the extra fuel so he can make it to hies alternate, should it not be possible to land at destination. :ooh:

So start your journey by uplifting a careerer that are relevant to aviation and can be used as an alternate if you cant land a desirable flying job. :ok:

[Abagnale]

theycallmemaurice:
abagnale, sounds like you need to get laid http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif
Sorry,mate,I am straight ;)

[Matt101]

Just to add..

I noticed the Cathay Pacific Airlines cadet pilot programme requires that you hold a Degree in their requirements. I know this is different than going straight into the job itself but just thought I would add.

No they don't you missed an important word which i will highlight..


5 passes in Hong Kong Certificate of Education Examination / GCSE (O Level) including Physics and Mathematics, together with 2 passes in Hong Kong Advanced Level Examination / GCE A Level, Science subjects preferred OR
Passes in Physics and Mathematics to year 10 and completed high school with the required university entrance qualifications, Science subjects preferred OR
Hold a degree or diploma in any discipline.

Sorry - but I wouldn't want someone getting the wrong Idea and not applying as a result.

Okay again I will say it "Go and get a degree". Don't do it in Aeronautical Engineering for the sake of it though - especially if you have no intention of ever wishing to work in AE or hate it or don't have the aptitude for it.

Do something you love, something that will be a good back up and something you will pass. (Try to resist the rubbish ones though - you know the ones).

I'd also just like to point out one of the niggles though that these threads always bring up. Holding a degree does not prove maturity, dedication, determination or some magical level of aptitude. Yes they are useful, yes, by all means if you have the opportunity to get one you should, but beware anyone who says that having a degree makes you a better person - this person is most likely a t@sser.

I have lived with graduates and non graduates and it was never a determining factor in who was better at their job, or more clever or for that matter more able to look after themselves on a day to day basis.

Sorry just needed to clear that one up.

[206Fan]

Hi Matt,

Yes I did see that. I should of made it more clear in my above post that the Degree was an optional requirement. (Rushing as usual) Thanks for the correction.

It does go to show that a Degree is not a total waste if you are thinking of becoming a pilot through a Cadet Programme, but as mentioned it's not needed either.

Dave

[Matt101]

Davy as I said, not having a go, just wouldn't want someone giving up on the idea so thought I'd point it out (in a somewhat ott way for which I apologise!:ok: )

[raven777]

Dear Grey,

Let me introduce myself, I am a 4th year (and final year) undergraduate student currently studying Masters of Aeronautical Engineering at Imperial College London. I want to share my background with you so it may help you to make your decision. At the age of 16, I started flying Vigilant gliders with the Royal Air Force CCF (Combat Cadet Force) at Samlesbury, England. I was fortunate to be awarded with a gliding scholarship and had achieved a solo flight at the age of 17 (before I could drive). The trainings I received were tremendously enjoyable and I wouldn’t swap it for anything. And at that moment, I knew instantly I wanted to pursue a career as a commercial pilot.
I am not from a wealthy background; I could afford school because of scholarships. I was never in a position where I could afford the expensive flying hours required to gain any pilot licences, nevermind the ‘inexpensive’ PPL. So I had two options, study a degree or join the RAF for 18 years.

So there I was at the age of 17, filling out my UCAS form, I knew Aeronautics was the best choice for me because it is something to do with planes and aviation. And I did Maths & Physics for A-levels. I enjoyed solving problems you see. I was absolutely delighted to have made it into Imperial, but then to find out the course was (and it still is) seriously difficult. However, I have met so many great friends during my time here and met great students and staff who share the passion for aviation. That is a network of friends you cannot find if you decided to go on and do fATPL.

In essence, the degree has matured my overall attributes required to become a pilot. I learnt to deal with difficult situations, both personally and academically. I have become a better team player by working in internships during my summer holidays. My communication skills have definitely improved as I interact with people from different cultural background every day. So all in all, I believe it is an all-round talented pilot that airliners are looking for, especially if you are thinking to apply for top airliners. It’s not just a licence with low hours and no type rating.

My next step is to get into the cadet pilot program for X airline and recently I have received an invitation for 1st interview. I’m still in my early 20s and I am confident I can always get a fATPL in my 40+ years career path (provided I stay medically fit), but I can’t always graduate with one of the most prestigious and rewarding Engineering degree. :cool:

Let me tell you why I think Aeronautics is a prestigious Engineering degree. I actually get to design a plane for my final year project. I am aiming to reconstruct a Grob Tutor, so I'll be doing calculations on the flight dynamics and the aerodynamics aspects of the aircraft. (I'm not really a structural guy). The initial model will be tested in X-plane during the early stages. Eventually, as my model iterates and hopefully improve in its dynamics. I will be given an unique opportunity to test it in a FAA-approved full motion Flight Simulator in our department (costs 5 million pounds). It excites me because I know it is only an Aeronautical Engineering degree which gives me this opportunity. How many ATPL pilots in this world can say at FL350, they know how to design a plane?

Nevertheless, I know it doesn't really help you in terms of actually becoming an professional pilot. But look at Michael Schumacher and Lewis Hamilton for example, they are both exceptional drivers. They drive their F1s to limits, because they know every aspect of driving and excel both technically and practically. I think you get my point there. To become someone good, you have to be exceptional first.

I really hope speaking from a personal point of view has helped you making your decision.

Best Regards,
Raven777

P.S. During my time here, I have met the most amazing girl, who shares the same passion and background as me. I cannot tell you how weird but yet amazing to find someone so similar to me. It’s the degree that brought us together. But I let her go though, the only thing in life I regret. Don't make the same mistake as me, what ever you decide it's likely to be a good one but make sure it's something you wouldn't regret in the future.

[Abagnale]

beware anyone who says that having a degree makes you a better person - this person is most likely a t@sser
Exactly,that's what I've been trying to say here...And Theycallmemaurice is the visual proof of these words :} What most people don't understand is that you should only get a degree if you want to,but not because "it should be a requirement for all commercial pilots".

[Matt101]

BUT I must say that the social skills I manage to grasp during my university days were invaluable. I'm not saying go to university and come out a necessarily better person but it definitely gives you the opportunity to round your character. Of course going into paid employment will offer the same opportunities.

Oh I agree it certainly does offer that opportunity, I do think though, sometimes, some life skills are only picked up when Mum and Dad really cut the umbilical cord and for many that can be after university. For most it is an excellent opportunity for self development, all I would say is that I think that has more to do with the individuals inherent personal attributes as opposed to the environment they are in, people who CHOOSE to go to university (as oppose to falling into it) seem to get the most out of it, but I think the same can be said of those who CHOOSE not to and pursue a non academic path.

Take two of the house mates I have had in my life; the first during university studying somethingology. The only thing he was committed to for the few years I knew him was his bong and not washing. Not to say he wasn't very interesting and a good (yet smelly) mate but god help him in the real world clasping his 2:2 and an ounce.

The other didn't go to uni, self improved at a city business, did the courses necessary, now may be looking at distance learning with the OU but in the meantime has been very successful - worked hard to achieve.

There are plenty of examples I could think of the other way around though, I just get slightly uncomfortable with generalisations, especially this one :ok:

On the aircraft front, I love learning about the intricacies of the aircraft I am flying but the day the skipper comes to me and asks me to go back and have a look at the turbine is a day we are all in trouble. (Not only do I not hole a degree which would enable me to deal with such things I am doubtful as to my ability to speed tape her up at FL370).

My main point remains: Got the opportunity, go to uni, but do it for the right reasons and do the right course for you.

[portsharbourflyer]

djfingerscrossed,

Just to clarfiy, this is my second time back in engineering. Anyway PM me if you want some pointers on getting to back to engineering.

As said first time after CPL/IR, then contracted for a couple of years, then became a full time instructor and gained a turbo prop job; laid off from tp job in 08 and returned to engineering contracting again.

Just shows you can jump between engineering and flying and I expect I will for the remainder of my career.

Raven777, make the most of your design project because this is probably the last and only time you will design a whole aircraft. The majority of jobs in industry will only involve working on a a small part or a sub system of an aircraft and you will rarely see a whole airframe. There are exceptions, but many of the DEGs at Airbus these days rarely do anything technical they just manage and liases with sub contract houses. After a while you realise that mechanical engineering is pretty much the same irrespective of what vehicle the part or system is from.

Any of the companies where you could work on a whole airframe rarely got the thing certified and even rarer made any money (examples Farnborough F1, Centaur Seaplane , CMC Leopard).

I don't mean to sound negative, but the good thing about aero engineering is contract rates for mid-experienced engineers are in the region of 28-35 pounds per hour.