Jumping from a Chieftain to a Global Express XRS. Advice needed please!!

[Champy_th]

Hi,
I have been reading this very useful site for quite a while but never posted anything here, so please excuse me if i am doing anything wrong.

I am a JAA frozen ATPL holder (IR and class1 expired as i have moved back home from the UK after my flight school and got my licence converted into our country's CPL IR ME, class1). I have just over 1000hrs total time. I work for a small company operates a PA31-350 Chieftain doing both IFR and VFR charters plus some aerial survey/mapping flights. We also do some contracts on news coverage involving mostly VFR flights and some air taxi flights on a Cirrus SR20-G3. Apart from charter flights and air taxi, we also do ground handling and maintenance for GA aircrafts. Luckily, one of the aircrafts is a Citation X belongs to a friend's parents and i happen to know the pilots very well as they also fly with me on the Chieftain so i got a chance to observe many flights and get a few landings on the X.

Let's get to the point. I've just had an offer for a new job as a co-pilot on a Global Express XRS, operating in UAE with an A6 reg. waiting to be delivered from the factory at the end of March. It is a privately owned and company managed aircraft. This aircraft belongs to a very close family friend so please don't be surprised why they chosen me for the job.
I have a very little information about anything as everything is done through my father who has no aviation knowledge and please trust me, i tried my best to get as much information as i can but i couldn't get much.
The only sure facts for me are...the aircraft type, operation type (part 91, i guess), the UAE A6 reg and i will go for my training with another co-pilot(who i think is MUCH more qualified) 4-6 weeks prior to the aircraft delivery (i was told that it is going to be in Montreal and the company who is going to be managing the aircraft will contact me soon).
In the mean time, i am getting myself ready by studying an online courses from King Schools Online on 'Part 91 get it all kit' which involves Jet transition, RVSM, high altitude endorsement ground, TAWS, WX radar, icing ops certification, MNPS certification, Oceanic RNP certification and P-RNAV B-RNAV certification. I am also looking to do some more online course on SMS at FSI etc. as i am doing nothing much at the moment (the aircraft delivery has been delayed a couple of time already :(

My questions for those of you who can help are :
1) should i go back to the UK to get my licence renew and do the conversion from JAA to UAE CAA as i will benefit from the frozen ATPL instead of from my only CPL i have in my country?
2) if so, do i have to go back to the UK or can i do it some where else (i have US and will soon get Canadian visa)
3) what else should i do to prepare for my very first sim and has anyone been into the BD700 sim at Montreal? What will i face, any comment on the instructors?
4) any more advice will be greatly appreciated.

Lastly, I would like to thank you in advance for any help, advice and read my boring lengthly post :)

Champy

[PLovett]

I cannot answer your questions from personal knowledge, only a gut reaction, but I suggest that even with your limited exposure to jet operation (the Citation X) the biggest challenge you are going to face is the transition from piston/straight wing to jet/swept wing.

You are about to enter a world of difference from your prior experience and anything you can do to help that transition would be beneficial. There is a thread running on PPRuNe about the usefulness or otherwise of the book, "Handling The Big Jets". This may be an excellent primer on the subject. There may well be others.

The other major difference is that you will be entering the world of automation as distinct from just having an autopilot. I have seen the cockpit of Global Express and it is light years away from a Chieftain. Some prior reading on cockpit automation also would not go astray.

Finally, I am totally envious and wish you well for your future. :ok:

[PPRuNeUser0215]

Hi

I am not sure which FMS you have on the GRS but if you can get hold of a software for you to train on then do it. Kind of not difficult to use and maximum exposure before the real thing will help you to relax for the first flights (and during the sim, thanks to basic FMS programming knowledge).

Enjoy !

[Der_Fischmeister]

Sit in ...enjoy ...learn ....simple!!!

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Hi

I am not sure which FMS you have on the GRS but if you can get hold of a software for you to train on then do it. Kind of not difficult to use and maximum exposure before the real thing will help you to relax for the first flights (and during the sim, thanks to basic FMS programming knowledge).

Enjoy !

That's the best advise you can get especially the Enjoy bit (even when your head is coming off).

You must if at all possible try and get an FMS simulator for work at home, inbetween exercises in the sim is just wasted time if you cant operate the FMS. The less time you are head down with the instructor telling you which button to press is more time that you have actually operating the sim in the air.

Dont expect to be able to fly the aircraft well when you leave the sim, set yourself a goal of getting a first time pass for the FAA type, you can learn all about how to fly the aircraft when on line. Yes you'll have to demonstrate steep turns / UA / Stalls in three different configs and the FAA want to see these done well - very well but the airwork can be "taught" and with some batting practise in the sim you can get some polish on them.

Prepare as much as possible and put the hard work in, somebody is paying a very large amount of money for your training so to a greater or lesser extent then when you walk into the training centre you do become their problem.

If the instructors see you struggling and see you doing all you can to help yourself they'll stick with you and get you through it.

The FAA Checkride is more stringent than the JAA one and you have the Oral exam

[340drvr]

As everyone else says, "prep, prep, prep." I'm sure the sim training center will send you advanced training materials, it's very helpful to obtain all the training manuals/checklists/books ahead of time and study them cover-to-cover.
Another smaller point, if you're not used to flying with a flight director, any prior experience with such might be helpful. Good luck!

[Empty Cruise]

Champy,

First of all, congrats on the job, a good move forward in the current climate. The FO I fly with has just gone through a similar process from the PA31 to the CL30, so based on his experience, here's my shortlist....

As stated earlier, get to know the FMS pretty well, as well as the FGCS, they are essential to getting the most of your type rating. However, knowing how they work and what they do doesn't help you unless it's in a context, so...

...get a copy of your new outfits SOP - this is by far the most important bit. You need to have all your call-outs and sequences down before you hit the sim. Make sure you train on their check-lists (if different from bog-std Bom checklists), so get copies to bring along.

Otherwise, it's just about enjoying it. Flying is never going to be the same, the Chieftain job has given you a good background in basic instrument flying, but apart from that, it's not going to help you much in your new job. it's a brand new ball game, so be prepared to ditch all the old habits and get on the new SOP asap.

Cheers,
Empty

[Gulfstreamaviator]

I second the above policy.

Learn the FMS.

Yes learn the SOP, but also learn the normal checks. Until you can do them with your eyes closed.

The Global is easier to fly than the PA31.

The only point I would make, is always think in terms of TIME, not distance or height.

ALL aircraft take 10 mins to travel 10 mins, then you will never be behind the aircraft.

I lied: second thought: the application of power takes longer than a PA31 to take effect. Never get behind the power curve. If you have the power levers to idle, there will be a problem very soon, be alert to the speed vectors.

Have fun.

glf

[Lime Rock]

eight years ago. Had way less hours than you have and I remember that I wished that I had a cockpit layout scheme to study prior to going for the sim. Kind of frustrating spending 20 minutes just to start the darn engines.

It does help to know where everything is placed in the cockpit so you know where to look for the stuff. Being stressed out and not finding what you want will only stress you further, and the frustration will hamper your own performance.

TheSOP study with calls is very sound advice as well as the FMS part.

Good luck with everything!!

[Champy_th]

Dear all,
I would like to thank you guys so much for the above info. It has really guided me to the right direction of what i should be focusing on right now especially the Flight Crew Operating Manual, FMS and checklist etc etc...
Having been a by-stander on this site for quite a while, I really do not want to be a ''baby-sat'' low time co-pilot, causing my captain to focus on me from making mistakes instead of performing his duty fully.

Once again, thanks a lot for your help, I will surly be enjoying the sim training and the job :)

Champy

P.S. Anymore advice is still greatly welcomed.

[Champy_th]

...one more thing, what do u guys think about FSI online 'Universal FMS Fundamentals' course?

Cheers,

Champy

[AtthePNR]

http://www.rcoco.com/sdChampy

My advice is to go to http://rcoco.com/sdoc/ download the systems for the XRS and read over them so that you are reasonably familiar with them all (not expert) including the Limitations section. This way when you start ground school you will not look like a deer caught in headlights. By having done this you will be able to stay ahead of what is being covered so you can turn your attention to the Operations Reference Manual (ORM) and the Quick Reference Handbooks (QRH) Which will all but tell you what to do and say!

As for the flying, yes it is different but it is still an aeroplane.

If you have been using GPS units the FMS is just a very complicated one, but you do not have to be expert on it to pass your checkride. Initialize, Performance, Departure, Arrival, and Approach......not necessarily in that order mind you!

When you start the sim's... be prepared you will be given the scenario’s that you will be flying on Day One...so nothing should be a surprise to you there. Enjoy it relax.....just remember there are two of you in the Cockpit and you do not have to "hand fly" all the time use the auto pilot that's what it is for. One last thought......everyone has bad days in the Sim and I mean everyone, don't let it get you down! Understand what you did wrong and move on ...QUICKLY! You do not have the time to procrastinate about it.

Then it is just a matter of working out all the good cheep places to eat at in Dubai.

Good Luck

[Red Goose]

Hi Champ!
This "Universal FMS fundamentals" course is based on the UNS-1 (manufactured by Universal). It will give you a general idea about FMSs, but the Global Express is Honeywell equipped, and it's quite different.
Honeywell do have FMS simulating programs to run on your home computer (they work very well!), and they provide their customers with it. Since the aircraft is new, you should be able to obtain one (through the training provider, maybe?).
Anyway, have fun. Nice aeroplane!
Goose

[RAFAT]

I cannot answer your questions from personal knowledge, only a gut reaction, but I suggest that even with your limited exposure to jet operation (the Citation X) the biggest challenge you are going to face is the transition from piston/straight wing to jet/swept wing.

Champy - With respect to PLovett's opinion I tend to disagree with the above, but definitely agree with his point about automation. Myself and many former colleagues have transitioned from prop types to jet types and it's nowhere near as big a deal as some would have you believe; by far the biggest factor is learning the information in front of you and how it's presented. On my last type rating course my sim partner (from a steam-driven non-EFIS type) struggled greatly to decipher EFIS information and was totally baffled by the FMS.

Therefore my own recommendation for pre-course learning would definitely be EFIS and FMS. I personally transitioned from a DHC8-400 to a Citation and it was a doddle, they're so similar I didn't need to do a thing before the course.

[His dudeness]

Champy,
as almost everyone else I´d emphasize the importance of the FMS/FGS.

I would try to contact the simulator training provider you are heading to and squeeze out a few days up front or in between to sit in the sim or a procedure trainer. An open word with the program manager might help you.

If you already have an experienced pilot in that operation, he could possibly give you good guidance.

To further aid what we told you, just a little story from myself:

after having flown EFIS and FMS equipped airplanes for 16 years I went on a CL30 rating, the first FMS with a 'scratchpad' for me (had flown UNIVERSALS, GNS- XL and XLS´s and the Bendix KNS660 plus and old one I don´t even remeber the name of)

I used almost 99% of my tiny little brain to get around the habits and patterns that were printed into my circuits and almost blew all the sessions.
Only on the 2 last sessions I was coming to grip with the system. All of a sudden I could handle the rest. I should have taken extra training, but was a tad to overconvidend at the time. Lession learned.

So don´t be afraid, if I hecked a similar airplane I´m sure you can do it as well, just stay focused and help yourself to a little extra training.

[Champy_th]

Hi,

Thank you again for more usual advices. I am currently trying my best to get as much pre-training knowledge, material etc. as i can. As i have mentioned in my first post, it is very difficult as i got this job though my family and the aircraft belongs to a family friend who lives in the UAE where all communications have had to past through a few individuals, each direction :sad:

By the way, i've just got a soft copy of the Global Express XRS Flight Crew Operating Manual which i think it is a genuine one. It contains all subject such as airplane general, power plant, automatic control system, global 5000 differences etc.
It has a Bombardier Global Express logo on the top left corner and these version codes on the bottom of all pages ''REV 41, Jul 08, 2004
Flight Crew Operating Manual CSP 700−6 12−10−14''
Is this the right one for me to go through in the mean time?

cheers,

Champy :)

[specialbrew]

Think the current revision is 62 but 99% or more of the info will be correct.:ok:

[unablereqnavperf]

Champ_th
If you can find out the serial no of your aircraft it will 9*** or something along those lines you may be able to get some info from the Bombardier training centre in Montreal they have an e-learning department which is very good. I'll try look up the phone number for you. the lady in charge is called Jennifer .... (sorry can't recall her surname). As pilot type ratinga are often part of the aircraqft purchase package you can probably get al lot of the stuff for free.

PM me if you need help.

The rest of the advice you have got on here is pretty good all I'll add is don't be afraid of the machine as it is basically a Chieftan with some clever toys that flys a bit quiker. All the basics are the same. As others have said and you seem to be making progress with, learn to understand the G-WIZZ kit as much as possible so you waste less sim time scratching your head. Try closing your eyes and imagine your flying the aircraft in your mind think about what happens next and get procedures stuck firmly in your head that way you'll have more time in hand and be ahead of the airplane.

Work hard and most of all enjoy its a real nice airplane! You can probably renew your JAA ATPL at the training centre in Montreal I did.

[Lindberg]

My questions for those of you who can help are :
1) should i go back to the UK to get my licence renew and do the conversion from JAA to UAE CAA as i will benefit from the frozen ATPL instead of from my only CPL i have in my country?
2) if so, do i have to go back to the UK or can i do it some where else (i have US and will soon get Canadian visa)

Dear Champy,
at first congratulations to the new job! I am on the Global now since 5 years and still happy with that. You will convert from a pilot to a system operator, but this is what modern aviation is about :rolleyes:

Anyway, you are talking about license.... I dont know the UAE rules, but according JAA you have to hold a (frozen) ATP for this kind of aircraft. Even as copilot! I am quite sure, to be captain, you need it as well in UAE. So as long as it is easy to renew your UK license, I strongly recommend to do so. Otherwise you will have a bad surprise in Montreal. You can't start the course, as long your paperwork is not correct.
Unfortunately I can't tell you where you have to renew it, depends a lot how long it is expired. Basically you can do it in any JAA country and most probably also in Montreal with JAA examiners. But be there than well in advance, to have the license renewed before the course starts... mail can take a while...

May be some one knows more and has the latest infos on this... please correct me :ok:

By the way, even if the frozen ATP is not required in UAE, a JAA rating is a very valuable thing, because there are many JAA reg Globals around, also in UAE.

The new thing for you will be to tell the aircraft what to do. You are not acting anymore on the controls, you have to tell it different computers with confusing names :) what to do. So always stay ahead :}

Good luck and I am sure you will enjoy it. And keep one leg in the piston twin, just for fun flying...

Brgds
Lindberg

[S.F.L.Y]

There is no fATPL in UAE and without a full ATP you only obtain a CPL with no way to upgrade without taking back the whole exams...

The best would be to contact your operator (AOC holder) as they are those who will proceed with your paperwork. Who will be the operator?

[Champy_th]

Thank you again and again for all your kind advices :)

S.F.L.Y, this aircraft is privately owned, so i guess it will not be operated under an AOC (kinda Part 91, i think). My dad, who has no aviation knowledge what so ever (as i early mentioned), is starting to get annoyed with me asking too many questions regarding this.....he kept telling me to wait for the training to begins but I also keep telling him that i do not want to be a 'baby sat, unprepared' low time co-pilot when i get there :ugh: , so i still have no idea who is/will be managing both my training and the aircraft i will be flying.

Anyone who happens to work or have anything to do with the BD700 production line, please p.m. me to shad any light of who is managing this aircraft and when exactly this aircraft will be handed over (i was told it is end of March.... (i don't think there are many A6 tail number aircraft sitting around on the finishing production line :cool:

Cheers

Champy

[S.F.L.Y]

In UAE there is nothing like part 91. You need an AOC for any type of operations, as such the aircraft will definitely be managed/operated by an operator. I strongly recommend you to get in touch with them as many have excessively specific requirements for flying crews. You should make sure everything is ok between you and them well before going for the training, otherwise things can go sour.

[Champy_th]

Ahh, got it!!, thanks for the head up, that kinda explains the reason why they told me i need to leave home 4-6 weeks prior to the aircraft delivery date (coz i know the course only takes 21 days);), again i will try my best to get more info despite the layers of communication complication:bored:

[xsbank]

With all due respect, try and get your licensing stuff in order with your new 'employer' first. They will be sending you on your training and will provide you with the documents that you will present to Bombardier. You will be expected to operate the aircraft to the same tolerances and Practical Test Standards as the captain. Once you get your traing slot you will be told which on-line courses that you can begin and you will receive a password for them. That document you are using is 6 years out of date so don't waste your time memorizing numbers from it. Your biggest detriment is lack of experience so I would recommend you spend some time learning generic aircraft systems like pressurization and bleed systems, perhaps how a jet engine works; know your ifr rules cold. The rest will be taught to you in class in a structured learning environment that integrates ftd and sim with classroom. Do not expect to do ANYTHING except study and work your *ss off for 3 weeks. All of this is coordinated through your CP or your captain - ask them.
Have fun and enjoy the chance to learn a spectacular aircraft!
s

[Champy_th]

Thanks xsbank, with respect to the documents i had (the 6yrs old one), there was a gentleman here kind enough to send me the whole updated ones;) (2009 FCOM, QRH, AFM etc.). I have just also been doing a few online courses such as jet transition, RVSM, oceanic RNP etc...)
About my license, i hope there should be no problem because i am holding an ICAO CPL which was converted from a JAA Frozen ATPL (there is no fATPL in my country). I have ask a few people and had a few different suggestions
1) my class mate from Kuwait who is flying for Kuwait Airways and had his fATPL unfrozen by sending his proof of hours etc. back to the UK (i am still not 100% sure if i understood him right, he may have been converted his JAA fATPL to the Kuwait one when he first started the job, i will double check with him again)
2) another gentleman from this web has told me that there is no such a thing as fATPL in the UAE, so i will have to sit the whole ATP exams again when i reach the hours no matter i have sat the whole JAA ATP ground :{(i am now just over the 1000hrs mark).
So is there any suggestion of any least complicate method to do this conversion stuff, bearing in mind that i will have to go back to the UK from here to get my IR ME class 1 revalidated if i have to convert my license from the JAA fATPL... OR should i just forget my JAA one and convert my current CPL to the UAE CPL??? (because as u know, license conversion is far less hassle than sitting the full exams)

[xsbank]

Give Bombardier a call, 1 514 344 6620 and explain what you have and what you need. They have SFEs that can do your checks and licensing in the sim and their Standards department will determine the suitability and requirements of your license.

[galaxy flyer]

It'll be longer than 21 days--it is at least 24 or 25 now that HUD/EVS is integrated into the TR course and eval. But the training will be very thorough and complex; it will be challenging, I can assure you. Once you take delivery, you should have pilot support for two weeks with a qualified pilot to take your department thru in the Entry Into Service phase

GF

[DA-10mm]

learn the memory items and limitations as a new FO...and enjoy yourself.
It's a jet...a lot less levers to pull/push in the cockpit

[NVpilot]

If you're trying to get ahead, I agree to contact the training facility to obtain some training materials, another previous post that mentioned handling the big jets is great information, if you are operating the PA-31 single pilot, you are already well ahead of the program, the jet will be easier, enjoy the school. :ok:

[Paradise Lost]

Champy, you need to practice sitting in your armchair for 12 hours without getting a sore butt, and how to select what refreshments you would like during those 12 hours!

[welliewanger]

Paradise Lost, you don't need to select your refreshments... for you it's always coffee.

I've recently moved to the GLEX from instructing on PA28, so I know it seems pretty daunting. When I trained I couldn't find a good FMS simulator, the only one available was only capable of taking you through a couple of examples. Here's the two things I'd recommend:

1. Learn about the automatics. If you understand them, it unloads you so much for everything else.

2. Everything in these large aircraft has a procedure to it. Fly by numbers. In the real world a little bit of creativity may be required, but in the sim just do everything as and when the manual says. Monkey see - monkey do. Then there's much less brain work involved. This applies to everything from "When should I put the slats out for the approach?" to ":mad: LEFT ENGINE FIRE!" If you just do it in the sequence it says in the manual, cool and calm, you've got all the time in the world.

Oh yes, and finally... don't overdo it! My training reduced me to a gibbering wreck! I worked too hard. This was probably counter-productive.

[DC Diesel]

Champy, if you get to the UAE and find yourself short of a warm body for the left seat, lemme know, I just walked away from yet another closed down shop....yes I am current on BD700. Good luck with training...drinking from a fire hose is what they call it!

Ciao

DC

[aulglarse]

Champy, one challenge I had many years ago was leaving the single pilot ops and learning to fly with someone else calling the shots.

If you haven't already, try to get hold of a multi-crew ops book/material, which can give you a good insight into 2 crew operations on all levels of performance machines-enjoy.

[fizzzz]

What a big step!

You can ask a lot of numeric docs in montreal before going, they will be happy to help.

Keep in mind that there is NO day off during the initial course.
It' a lot to swallow event coming from big jets.

Good luck & congrats!

[Ibis]

The Course goes Monday to Friday, Sa & Sun off with the possibility to go into the SIM/FTD for a free 2 hour session to exercise cockpit flow.
Second week finish Friday with the TRTO exam.
Sunday 1st sim session, Friday than the LST.
Yes, lots of stuff, but manageable :ok:

Yes, there are "OFF' days scheduled, but with all the material to study, one better use most time available to get up to speed!! :}
It is manageable!! hundreds of pilots did it before you, hundreds will do it after you. :{