List of "Pay-to-Fly" airlines

[despegue]

Hello, I urgently need a list of "Pay-to-Fly" Airlines, if possible with their rates/conditions.

Let me assure you that this slavery will end soon... mark my words.

[hollingworthp]

FlyNiki is one

[ab33t]

Ryan ,Easy ,Wizz

[alpha.charlie]

International or just UK?

Astraeus
bmi

[hollingworthp]

I don't think FR strictly counts as PTF as it is a SSTR and you are paid to fly rather than the other way around.

[wind check]

Hello, I urgently need a list of "Pay-to-Fly" Airlines, if possible with their rates/conditions.

Let me assure you that this slavery will end soon... mark my words.


:} ahahahah!

Good Jocke :ok:

BTW, what do you call pay to fly airlines?? paying for a type rating? line training? working for low salary? what could we call a low salary? is there a minimum salary in this profession?...

[pushback22]

I have it on high authority a leading UK newspaper is working on a story about the UK industry slavery pilots after the guardian article. It is going to be juicy, and a few people named and shamed. If I was a journalist I know what catchy headline I would use

"This is your passenger speaking!!!!"::ooh:

[go around flaps15]

Fly LAL, Royal Air Maroc, FlyNiki, and also TunisAir all through Eaglejet. No pay during line training. No pay full stop unless offered a contract at the end of line training package.

[INNflight]

FlyNiki is one

They're not, they even PAID TRs for the people who joined them straight out of flight school.

[WidebodyWillie]

Let me assure you that this slavery will end soon... mark my words

Don't make me laugh. This is the low cost established business model and it'll take more than a days newpaper headlines to change it.

Don't get me wrong I too think it's disgraceful and utterly condemn what the low costs have done to our industry, but it won't change.

Good on ya for trying though! :ok:

[go around flaps15]

They are(FlyNiki). They have taken Eaglejet low hour guys. They also do their own thing with regard to paying for line training through their flight academy flyniki - the programme of courses offered by the Flight Academy (http://www.flyniki.com/en/niki-world/flight-academy/programme-of-courses.html)

[despegue]

WidebodyWillie,
That attitude is exactly what brought us in this mess. Action Boys and girls!
Who wrote to the Guardian/ Independent/ Times/BBC/SKY News/El Pais/ Le Figaro/ La Republica/De Telegraaf,... already? Do it!

[B-HVY]

I believe Air Asia (Malaysian LCC) also has or had a SSTR scheme followed by pay xxxUSD for xxx amount of line hours. However, I am led to believe that visas for these European folks were never eventually approved so I am not sure whether they managed to get flying or not.

[Birdy767]

Have a look on this site:

Pilot Jobs Network - for students of pilot schools and experienced airline pilots (http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/) left side you got a list of "JAA ATPL flight school" whatever that means... They are all playing the Pimp for those low sh>>ty airlines' management. You will find lots of "pilot murderers"

Even Swiss plays this game... with of course no contract at the end of your "self suicide sponsor".

[Charlie Alfa]

Gol Linhas Aéreas (GLO or G3) from Brazil, some pilot´s pay for a course with the name Jet Trainer about 45K Reais (20K Dollars). This course doesn´t give you a Type Rate, but make all the cadet´s to join the company.

By the brazilian laws, the cadet´s can´t pay to apply, for Type Rate, For Training or something like that and need to receive salary in line training.

[lpokijuhyt]

I'm fed up with everything. I have not been able to work for 1.5 years. Typed in 4 different jets (B744, B747, LR-Jet, IA-Jet), 4000 hours, JAA and FAA licensed. For ****s and grins, I applied to RYR's Training organization 6 months ago. They promptly informed me that I do no fit into the cadet scheme. Hell, I never knew a little experience was a bad thing...this is simply retarded. This industry is a frickin' joke. Currently, I work at the cash register at my local supermarket. Guess what...I didn't have to pay Tesco to learn how to use the cash register! There is a god!

[Massey058]

Lion Air in Indonesia via EagleJet. They also use CAE although don't think that deal is like the EagleJet one.

[angelorange]

Good effort!

Although I don't think Capt. J Curd is to blame for the mess we are in as an industry. As far as I know he did some base training for STORM not CTC or Oxford. It was not an EZY get rich scheme.

There was another couple of EZY Capts who had an ATP thing going in Holland in 2008 which was basically PTF.

[angelorange]

Pay for CV to be read
Pay for Interview/SIM check
Pay for 737 Rating (30k)
Pay for Uniform
Pay for Food and coffee on duty
Pay to set up your own company under Brookfield Contract

Pay for LPC renewals?
etc etc

[go around flaps15]

You dont pay for your cv to be read. You dont pay to setup a company. They pay you when you start flying pax.You do pay for the rating, uniform, coffee and sim. Sim is deducted from your wages directly. After line training the rate is 60 euros per hour less 4.50 euros. So that would be 56.50. Then its 70.50 less 4.50 then its 78 euros less 4.50. On average cadets do between 600 and 700 hours a year. And guess what they are payed for those hours. Imagine that!
Not the best deal that was ever put on the table but a million miles from these OTHER by definition "PAY TO FLY pax SCHEMES"

P.S. By the time all the taxes are claimed back for the type rating it ends costing in the region 14. When the company is setup the cadet is immediately entitled to 5 and half k back( does not apply if type rating is done in Swedan because of no vat and the Dutch authorities take their time sorting that out if you have done training in Holland I believe). The rest of the rating is claimed as a company expense and you get half of it back as tax relief. Tea bags, uniform, can be included too. Not ideal but just about workable.

[The Flying Cokeman]

Apelorange,

If you dig deeper I think you will find that the ATP thing that went on in AMS in 2008 was setup by J.Curd. If I remember correctly you had to pay £30.000 for his type rating and you would then get line training in EZY

[angelorange]

RYR were the first EU airline to get the TRSS scheme going - that is PTF

A TR is a requirement for the job and they prefer to take on TRSS rather than TR FOs.

Pay for CV - was the case in 2004-2005

In the UK a LTD company requires registration with Companies House - this costs £ as does an accountant.

Working at Schipol in 2006, I met a RYR newbie who had just paid 30,000E for sim TR.

Compared to pre JAR CPL days this is self employed PTF until you have paid off your TR and interest and are Line Qualified. But paying for legally required licence renewals?!!!!

[go around flaps15]

You dont setup company in the uk. You set it up in Ireland. You dont pay for the CV to be looked at anymore. And yes the SSTR has been there for a quite a while. Not ideal as I said. But the point I am making is that they dont tell you to completely sling your hook after 500 hours or 6 months( unless you dont make the grade that is) and thats down to you.

[Cpt. Sunshine]

Cimber Sterling carry out Base Training for EagleJet, unsure about whether they are one of the Pay to Fly mob though.

[plugg]

I was in Burger King not so long ago. With my 'fantastically' created burger came a leaflet asking if I'd be interested in coming to work for said company.
Listed were the benefits of working for Burger King-

-full training given
-uniform provided
-paid holiday
-pension
-flexible hours

......to name but a few! I'll say no more!

[pushback22]

Is it not ironic that a few years ago the big joke was that after your pilot training you would be behind the counter at Burger King / MacyD's. Now it looks like the better option!!! Unbelievable, totally unbelievable.

[pilot999]

At my last check, mcdonalds did not pay me £98000, and if they did and also payed for my uniform. I'd be off,

Cause you just can't beat a good ole bugger:ok:

[saddest aviator]

Sadly, while our inexperienced colleagues continue to try and shortcut the system because of a desire to fly some shiny new boeing / airbus wonderjet without having to fly less sexy machines this farce will continue. I have found it sometimes very tiring flying with these people though while keen to learn and always good people, have so little experience the pressure put on the commander can be excessive.
The message to you guys who are considering parting with large amounts of cash. DONT DO IT the airlines have a commercial decision to make. Pilots make their aeroplanes fly, when they fly they make money, if they dont they loose money. Its not sensible to loose so pilots are essential.
If all waited on their hands for six months all hell would break loose and these slavery schemes would stop

[wind check]

This is the same sh1t everywhere. With a degree in sciences, computers, etc, you will struggle to find a job. Many guys with 5+ years at university have to prostitute themselves by sending their CVs on youtube or ebay!
So, the sh1t we have in our industry doent mean that anywhere else the grass is greener ;)

Despegue, could you tell us your background and how much you paid to do your frozen atpl training ? how much you paid to do your B737 TR with 100 hours line training with Happag Express???? please answer! :D

[Skyhigh86]

Despite Ryanair being a poor deal, i dont believe it to be a true pay to fly scheme.

The common factor of these pay to fly schemes is that they rely on a continual turnover of FO's. Basically replacing eachother, this simply isnt the case with Ryanair.

Going a while back cadets were actually worse off with regards to pay during line training than they are now, so lets not forget that eh.

35 euro per hour line training, and your likely to do 100 hrs(maybe more) in your first month or so;
A. Your cheap
B. Your not much use until your line checked.

So around 3500 euro gross is not too bad to be honest!

[WidebodyWillie]

I wish you all well in your efforts, but you try telling the 21yr old Joe Bloggs with £100K of his dads money that he shouldn't pay Oxford/ctc and easyJet to fly. Will he listen? They haven't yet!

..and therein is your problem, the root cause of the problem! No matter how much ctc/easy or anyone else charges to fly, you'll need to convince Joe Bloggs not to do it. Can you do that? He really does want to fly that shiny new jet you know, and tell all his friends he's an airline pilot.

Can you convince these people not to continue fanning the flames? Write to the papers but you should also be writing to the students in flight schools to make them understand how they are ruining the industry. easyJet and others don't care they're just looking at the £ signs.

[B767PL]

from what i know LOT polish deducts for the initial TR from your pay.

[LEONIDA]

in italy WINDJET, AIR ITALY, and some others I do not recall now

[Shaka Zulu]

lpok completely and utterly agree with your assessment. I love it how everyone is an expert and likes to see their competitor salary to come down. How about you stand up and be counted for your lot instead of looking over the fence green with envy.
I shall certainly mail respective journo's and also contact my company council.
I know its a political minefield for BALPA but its time we start putting the work in so we can put the hammer down when the financial situation starts improving.

I'm fed up of seeing my job becoming a dogs dinner.
Inactivity and envy wont solve anything.

[Microburst2002]

The moment pilots pay for line training they are stealing someone else's job, and that is ilegal, I am convinced.

At this stage, I don't give a damn for our prestige, or any other things.
I am just very worried and scared because there is a tsunami of people eager to pay for my job.

Any FO in the world should be scared now. And captains too, because the tsunami will reach them too, sooner or later.

It isn't our profession any more.
It's our job what is at stake.

But no journalists will help us.
Only ourselves can do it. I hope we will do something soon.
When all of us are scared as I am now, surely.
Will it be too late?

[D O Guerrero]

"the excellent video on youtube"???
It was bloody awful. And large parts of it total rubbish. It is a sad day if that video passes for campaigning... It was a load of whingeing claptrap with a bad soundtrack. Only 45k a year? Boo-frickety-hoo.... I'm sick of people going on about this. WE ARE ALL VOLUNTEERS. Not only that, we have brought this upon ourselves... The facts are:
Many people want to be pilots;
They are so desperate to achieve this dream, they are prepared to pay to train;
Airlines previously did not realise this;
Now they do.
The only surprising thing about the situation is that they didn't wake up and smell the coffee earlier. Like about 20 years earlier.
I really take issue with this whole "pay to fly" business. Almost all airlines make you pay to fly. I work for RYR and I earn 2 to 3 times that of people in the equivalent job flying a TP for Flybe. Nothing wrong with a TP - just as responsible a job and just as satisfying. But who is really paying to fly? Not me, I'm pretty sure of that.
"Mark my words" - I've marked them alright. Nothing will change.

[sharpclassic]

D O Guerro,

And you think that if Ryanair could find a cheaper way of getting someone to do your job they wouldn't do it?

Sorry, my mistake, Ryanair are the airline the airline that everyone aspires to spend their whole career at.

[go around flaps15]

And lots do stay for life.

[Hahn]

A while ago on a shiny jet airliner a young "pay as you fly" pilot was sent abroad for some days flying. CheapAir paid for the hotel but the poor pilot was on a tight budged and food in the hotel was out of his financial abilities. Thanks to CheapAir´s lovely cabin crew he was fed on left over crew food from the previous crew and every crewmember saved a sandwich to keep him alive. Unbelieveable? No. True! It was the day when I knew for sure that aviation was lost.

[EI-CON]

Sharpclassic,

Ryanair does not make you pay for line training! Im sorry but so many people on this and on that youtube video seem to think they do.

Ok you have to pay for your type rating but once you finish that you are paid to fly the plane. Its Easyjet and the like who make you pay for line training that are the problem.

[Avenger]

Questions folks:

AngelOrange, Is it correct to name people on a public forum whilst you post anonymously..just a thought, given the amount emphasis there is on making the profession respectable again.

Others, some of the airlines mentioned are not pay to fly, this forum is like the FMS.. put rubbish in you get rubbish out! what could be a reasonable debate worthy of a higher profile is losing credability quicker than the government.

On another matter, when you do eventually get a job offer, no doubt the bonding arrangements will also stick in the throat of experienced type rated pilots as well... It's not easy to inform a 16000 hr Captain that he is going to be bonded for a year 15000GBP.. food for thought.

All the best

[hotelmodemetar]

Swiftair also offers those crap deals. They even fired many of their "expensive" pilots who were under a "normal" contract in order to hire new pay to fly guys on EMB 120 and ATR42/72.

I think Astraeus took/takes guys from Hub Air flight school.

[aa73]

You guys are all making a big deal about something so simple to understand.

Supply and demand. There are too many pilots chasing too few jobs. As a result, the airlines can get quite creative with their money saving scenarios, knowing full well that there will always be applicants.

When it reverses, when there are not enough applicants and too many jobs, you will suddenly see some very attracted pay packages, and an end to this pay for training. That is why Burger King and the likes have what seems to be better offers than the airlines. Not enough applicants.

We haven't reached that point in the airline industry yet. I'm not too sure we will ever reach it. Take 9 out of 10 pilot wannabes who are just getting started, they'll gladly say "I'll fly for free!" to build experience and get an "in."

[Avenger]

Don't think you will find Astraeus take pay to fly guys since they divorced from Bond. Fly LAL are bust, only Fly LAL Charter exist, they don't take guys either. The BMI Scheme for A320 includes 150 hrs line training as part of a structured package.. unlike the EJ schemes, it is limited to 150hrs (or less if they mess up) Air Arabia do, but priced per sector through Northern Aviation, RAM do through EJ, as do Wizz. Lion Air, Jakarta also have a deal with EJ, but visa issues there. Rumour has it that some guys may be with a Greek operator, Elite. All in all, the reality is there is not that much capacity.. so the big question is.. where's all the money gone!

[Pugilistic Animus]

How could someone dispsarge this business with such great T@C along with the excellent job secutiy as shown in the you tube video:*

can folks really be that muppetty to fly?:(

[lpokijuhyt]

aa73:

There's a bit more to it big guy. You can take your supply and demand curves and pie charts and flush them down the toilet. I see you are listed as in the USA (there are no Part 135 mins or Part 121 mins over here). A major point of this topic is that the pay to fly schemes are sytematically destroying the industry with every passing hour. You would think an airline would love to interview an experienced pilot. Every airline wants to be safe and experience directly relates to increased safety, right? Nope, the experienced pilot is expensive. Remember that Turkish Air crash at Schipol last year? What do want to bet that the Captain was so frickin' busy making sure that the FO things were being accomplished that he neglected to do one of his routine checklist items? This is wrong. Why not have two "experienced" pilots doing their job? Because it is EXPENSIVE to have two experienced pilots in the cockpit! Airline management could give a rat's ass if the passengers safety is put at risk. You cannot contradict that otherwisae they would have two experienced pilots in the cockpit....get it? Honestly, it is criminal what is going on. And for the people who think this is simply another pilot forum where we bitch about our salaries...please...this is about right vs. wrong on a massive scale.

[One Outsider]

The industry have turned in to ****. That's the good news.

The bad news is that now it attracts all those who think that's good news.

It is the very people who enter the profession that is perverting it.

[TCL68]

Makes you wonder what the Northwest Airlines pilots who overshot Minneapolis were in 'Heated discussion' about! Airline policy?:ok:

[oapilot]

I work for RYR and I earn 2 to 3 times that of people in the equivalent job flying a TP for Flybe..... True, but pilots joining Flybe don't have to find £30k for a type rating, plus money for uniforms, parking, accountants, sim, hotac, command upgrade, plus have little or no previous commercial experience, etc, etc.

Anyway, whilst RYR are no longer exploiting pilots in the same way that EZY et al are, I get the sneaky feeling that they are still making a tidy profit from churning people through the system. Or are the rumours of fewer hours once you get onto higher pay scales not true? Does anyone know how many Brookfield FOs/Captains plus RYR direct employee flight crew there are in ratio to hulls? I suspect it's more than the usual 5:1, but would love to be proved wrong.

Pay to Fly is just the latest tool for airlines to cut costs and managers to earn bonuses, along with SSTR. The difference is that long term pay to fly is probably unsustainable, either due to economics or the inevitable smoking holes in the ground.

Short term the only option we have is to make this as high profile as possible. Write to the journos, your MP and MEP and tell it like it is. While we're at it we should lobby BALPA or the IPA or IALPA to do something useful like amending their careers advice pages/conferences to give an accurate portrayal of how newcomers to the industry can really expect to be treated. Maybe they could even use some of their contacts to get the CAA or DofT to take an interest. (OK, only joking on that last one....). It can't do any harm, it probably won't do much good, but it's better than doing nothing.

oap(eed off)

[captjns]

The industry have turned in to ****. That's the good news.

The bad news is that now it attracts all those who think that's good news.

It is the very people who enter the profession that is perverting it.

Bingo! The problem is that there are way too many pilots willing to prostitute themselves so they can fly a shiny jet:*. When that stops then maybe... just maybe our industry will once again gain some respect.

On the flip side of the coin, the foibles of those who made the news of late isn't helping our cause either:(.

[clear prop!!!]

Perhaps we have just seen the tip of the iceberg!

What happens when the beancounting departments turn their sights on the £100k ('ish') Captains whom they could replace for half the price with highly experienced TP captains for the cost of a discounted TR?...and a bit?

One 'could' argue that this might just bring the overall salary overhead down to a more acceptable level and, kick start the once normal career path back into line, with a more affordable overall wage bill.

Not my view BTW, but someone somewhere, must be thinking along those lines!

Perhaps £100k salaries will become a thing of the past...sooner rather than later, given what's going on at the bottom end.:\

[Dreamshiner]

Does an airline who charges an exhorbitant amount for a TR but with guaranteed employment at the end count?

ie. Actual cost £14k ...... Industry standard SSTR approx. £20k ....... Airline X charges £30k+

Because if we do, we should list the legacy carriers as those who don't ask for those to pay to fly and list every other airline in Europe as falling under this banner. It would make a shorter list.

[6000PIC]

For all the WRONG reasons , there are probably hundreds of inexperienced pilot wannabes reading this thread and frantically copying down every pay-to-fly Airline listed here. These "pilots" are thinking they are outsmarting everyone else , just to get ahead of the next guy. Just what this industry doesn`t need - we have enough of these snakes already thank you. I wonder how many are firing off CV`s and resume`s / applications just to spend a bit more of daddy`s money. Sickening.

[High-higher]

The industry is going through a transitional period.

Naturally some people are struggling to accept this fact.

Move on with your life, one way or another, the industry wont be the same again.

If you still want to be a pilot, you'll find a way, it may be a struggle financially but hang in there, sacrifices are needed. Alternatively, find another profession.

Maybe, just maybe, one day you'll be in command of wide body and will look back on this period thinking it made you a stronger person, and you'll be so thankful that you stuck it out.

I think it's about to for the complaining/analysing to stop....it's just so pointless now. Yeah I'll probably get flamed for this, but so what.

[Dan Winterland]

Quote- ''But no journalists will help us.''

No, but they can sway public opinion which will lead to legistlation changes when the regulators get enough presssure to do so. There's enough opinion that this is is bad thins, with a bit of publicity and enough momentum I reckon we could see the end of these schemes.

[AN2 Driver]

I sometimes wonder why the self sponsoring is under such flack. Not many professions, certainly not in higher education, are sponsored?

If you want to become a doc, you need to self sponsor your University education. Likewise for MBA's or the likes. Do they get lesser standards due to that? I don't think so, the washout process still applies, a bad doc won't advance or even pass his exam, no matter how much they choke up.

Up so far, any profession I have been in, I had to pay for my education enabling me to even apply for that position. Is that abnormal? I don't think so. Yea, right, McD or Tesco may have better conditions on paper, but is it really worth giving up the jobs you aspire for, just because it's easier?

I know, this means that a lot of talented people won't make it into the airlines because they can't afford it, while less talented ones will, but that is a fact of life in just about any profession requiring a higher education. Unless we want to go back (or go towards because outside the East Block it was never like that here) to purely state controlled education, that is the way things are, and even or especcially there, people did not get to their positions on merit either. (What was interesting for our work tough is that pilots had university degrees, something which might be very appropriate and useful here. After all, what lesser education does an ATPL with Jet rating e.t.c. have than e.g. a Lawyer apart from some of the academic requirements such as paper writing?)

For the rest, as has been said, it's a market thing. If the factor is 20 to 1 for each job, applicants will do whatever is demanded of them to get there if the job is still attractive enough. Stopping that could only be achieved by restricting the right to free choice of jobs or by going back to the days when you had to be a military pilot in order to be considered, but this would not satisfy the demand on the market in either way.

Just my thoughts. Self Sponsored CPL/IR/FATPL here, not flying professionally anymore, but still in the industry. Regrets? Not really, past that. What I learnt enables me to do my current job and some more. Like not every MD will become a brain surgeon, not every pilot will make the front left.

[bus_aviator]

Unfortunately N2 Driver, with the relaxed training, and the industry "needs" you that at times happens in aviation even the most untalented, unmotivated and undeserving make the front left, seen many co-pilots holding the hand of the man on the left during an approach, in europe and out here in the pit :(

PS Bahrain Air in the Middle East also uses the PTF scheme.

[beamer]

It never ceases to amaze me that there is a continual stream of 'professional pilots' who are prepared to do anything to enter an industry which has been going down the tubes for so long. What deluded ideas do they have of their futures - the prospect of thirty five years of ever reducing terms and conditions allied to increasing workloads in an evermore automated workplace would fill me with dread !

The industry is awash with young wannabee pilots with no experience whose licence has been paid for by wealthy parents; some ( not all ) seem to think they have a god given right to £50k in the rhs seat of a widebody jet and all the crumpet they can attract. And yes, the pressure is not just at the bottom end - all significant carriers are acutely aware that they have vastly overpaid senior pilots, usually with heavy training emoluments, who they would love to get rid of but are unable to do so due to legislation. Salary and allowance levels gained over many years are an aberration to company management whose bonus payments depend upon reduced expenditure. So the pressure is on for unions to make a stand against such trends but the effects of recession give the Airlines a huge trump card in any negotiations for the forseeable future.

[Kirks gusset]

Slightly off thread here, it is worth mentioning that whilst we all appreciate the whole industry is in a mess, for a number of reasons, it is not only the "wannabes" that find this "situation" frustrating.
Senior pilots are constantly encouraged to find ways of saving operational costs, one could argue that this rationale is protecting their jobs, and that goes without saying, however the primary undercurrent to " reduce the cost per cockpit" is now resulting in an experience gradient verging on dangerous. The highly paid training Captain wants to keep a job and as such accepts that sitting next to a guy with 170 hrs on a mid haul flight is now par for the course, the ordinary line Captain doesn't really want to go into training..why fly every hour god sends and get bogged down in paperwork. These days, a lot of TCs are only paid suppliments when training, they still accept this as their training credits are kept current. The ordinary line Captain gets to fly with the " finished product", only to find the guy gets canned as his paid sectors have finished.. again no stability, and a potential CRM nightmare. All this is very bad for the industry, safety, standards and morale.
The monies saved on crew wages with these schemes seems to dissapear into a black hole, whenever I question this practice I am told this is keeping me in work!
I am aware that some ACMI companies used to use practically every sector for line training, a lot of this was stopped by the clients and hull insurers with the caveat " only company employees to be trained". This has resulted in a shortage of capacity and a lot of people " started but not finished" sitting around waiting for sectors.
There is enough "fat" in the type rating course and line training costs to allow the TRTO/ partner airline to at least provide a small " training salary" whilst the student is line training. The real issue here is greed and reluctance to accept that the "suffering" should be evenly distributed, we cannot stop this practice but we can encourage change.

[Boing7117]

I have no problem in the current process of paying for flight training in order to gain the necessary qualifications required to fly commercially. As far as I'm aware - paying for flight training has always been the case, even as far back as the good old days, with the exception perhaps of those who trained in the military.

Maybe the prices have gone up a little bit more than they should be, particularly if you get hooked on the integrated courses just like I did - it would be very useful for trainee pilots to have some sort of flight training VAT exemption, but whether that ever happens remains to be seen. However - the part about pay-to-fly I DO NOT agree with....

Being taken on by an airline and "bonded" over a number of years so that you in effect repay the cost of your initial training by way of either a reduction on starting salary, or simply staying at the airline for 3/5 years whatever - I have no real issue with that - it makes business sense for the airline, and in my opinion is a fair and reasonable way of doing things.

However, the whole notion of moving things one step further - making the individual pilot pay the whole cost of your type rating in exchange for 75/100 hours of "line flying!, without a contract of employment, without any form of guarantee of further hours, and then to remain unpaid until your a fully line checked is an absolute disgrace.

It should be illegal. It sounds illegal. It's extortion, and if the paying public knew exactly who was piloting their plane on a given flight (of course, being line trained myself, yes there's a safety pilot or at least there should be), and what they'd had to do to get there - there would be outrage.

I hope these schemes are outlawed quickly - and the airlines responsible for this type of practice are held to account and made to explain why they explore this path for recruitment of their pilot workforce.

[Haran_Banjo]

despegue , what was your training course ? Did you really paid for the type and line training ?

Because if you did it my darling, why are you talking about to stop this bleeding ?

You have given your contribute to this situation and you are quite pathetic now that you see your position in danger.

Before or after justice come :ooh:

[Haran_Banjo]

Already another Pprune member has already made the same question but I didn't find an answer from yourself.

Could you please explain your background and why someone is asking you to talk about Happag Express????

If you would not give a serious reply , your idea will show it's completely ridicoulus .

They are right : worst pilot enemy is just another pilot :ugh:.

[jetglo]

I agree that many professions require a degree of self-sponsorship to one extent or another, but I would guess that most of these professions have not seen the continual erosion of both salaries and terms & conditions that ours has. The current 'pay to fly' culture and cv covering letters that state things like 'am happy to fly for nothing to get the experience etc. etc.' only has the effect of devaluing the job for everyone.
So how much are we worth as Professional Pilots? What is a sensible salary for a Captain and F/O? Presumably a lot less than it was and certainly a lot less now than other professions with such responsibility. It seems that, as usual, it is only the beancounters who win on all this. I remember a quote long ago from one who described pilots as 'overpaid prima donnas.' The current trend of 'pay-to-fly' schemes must be an accountants dream but is nothing short of slave labour.

[aa73]

aa73:

There's a bit more to it big guy. You can take your supply and demand curves and pie charts and flush them down the toilet. I see you are listed as in the USA (there are no Part 135 mins or Part 121 mins over here). A major point of this topic is that the pay to fly schemes are sytematically destroying the industry with every passing hour. You would think an airline would love to interview an experienced pilot. Every airline wants to be safe and experience directly relates to increased safety, right? Nope, the experienced pilot is expensive. Remember that Turkish Air crash at Schipol last year? What do want to bet that the Captain was so frickin' busy making sure that the FO things were being accomplished that he neglected to do one of his routine checklist items? This is wrong. Why not have two "experienced" pilots doing their job? Because it is EXPENSIVE to have two experienced pilots in the cockpit! Airline management could give a rat's ass if the passengers safety is put at risk. You cannot contradict that otherwisae they would have two experienced pilots in the cockpit....get it? Honestly, it is criminal what is going on. And for the people who think this is simply another pilot forum where we bitch about our salaries...please...this is about right vs. wrong on a massive scale.

Agree 100%... the problem does exist in the US and is directly related to low pay corresponding to inexperience. I guess in Europe they put inexperienced pilots in cockpits regardless of pay?

[Lotte Beckers]

Hi there,

I'm Lotte, a journalist for the Belgian newspaper De Morgen. A friend of mine told me about the 'abuse' of young pilotes who have to pay airlines in order to fly.

I'd love to make a big story on this, so I'm looking for anyone who can testify about their own personal situation, or can tell me about how it works and what the implications are. For example, I've heard about pilots having to take second jobs in order to pay the airline they're flying for...

So if any of you guys is working (or worked) for what you call 'pay-to-fly' airline, do please contact me on [email protected] or 00 32 472 56 85 20.
Of course you can testify anonymously, I wouldn't want to bring anyone in trouble.

Thanks a lot for your help!

Lotte Beckers
De Morgen

[Microburst2002]

Hi, DAN WINTERLAND

Yes, any help is welcome. However journalists sleep with politicians, who sleep with industry big fishes, who in turn sleep with journalists. So they may be helping one day, and the other kill us or leave us alone.

It is better, in my opinion, to get the energy for the change from ourselves, and then yes, use the press and any other agent to achieve our goal.

The whole situation is getting worse and worse very rapidly. The deterioration of the profession and its terms and conditions seems to follow an exponential law. People is starting to realise how bad it is and that everybody's job is in peril. The tsunami will never stop. It will reach even the major flag carriers. I feel things could begin to change if we just unite.

I know. Looks like science fiction, but the same would think the Spartans if you told them they would fight a common enemy side by side with the Athens armies.

The threat we face is so serious that fear will be the glue that will stick us and keep us united.

We have to lobby our unions (the ones representing the workers). Make them realise which is the number one priority. Which is the torpedo that is hitting us right below the floating line. What to struggle for in the first place, and that all countries unions have to coordinate to solve this problem together. This can be done in the internet era, don't you think?

Not for the proffession. Not for our pride. Not for justice. Not for the unemployed. But for our jobs!

[Pugilistic Animus]

I have more and more trouble controlling my mouth lately:oh:

[Dreamshiner]

Lotte,

You could start your investigation (and probably get enough material from them alone) from looking into just one company called EagleJet. The sole purpose of that company is to facilitate and act as a bridge between airlines looking for extra income or have some slack in their training department and newly qualified pilots willing to pay a commercial operation money to be line trained and increase their logbook hours on revenue generating flights.

However pilots are forced to pay in a number of methods from seemingly above board deals with airlines direct, however these pilots will often be charged well above industry standard for a Type Rating course. Indirect Pay to Flying.

The only airlines in Europe that don't follow these practices (at present and I hold my breath here and hope for the future) are the traditional flag/legacy carriers .... i.e. BA, Virgin Atlantic, Lufthansa, Alitalia, AIr France, etc.

[wasteofcargospace]

A pilot's life: exhausting hours for meagre wages | World news | The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jan/11/pilot-exhausting-hours-wages)

[despegue]

I have never worked for " Hapag Express" nor did I ever pay for line-training.
My first commercial flight ever was with a permanent contract in hand.

Haran_Banjo, Are you feeling the heat? Why feeling cornered by this post? The aim is to improve our industries working conditions, especially for our new and inexperienced collegues.

[wanabe2010]

Aviation is a scam, it's like the "church of Scientology"

people at the church pays as well to work...

it 's all ILLEGAL.:yuk:

[Guttn]

Lotte, if you`re serious about this you could perhaps begin your search by looking at one of the roots of this problem; European flightschools! Look at what they "offer" initially, and what they charge for the initial schooling of fresh students. And then look at what they "offer" in terms of further training when it comes to the end of the initial training. Fact is that you most likely won`t be able to land a job straight out of flightschool due to lack of experience. So what often is being offered is pay-to-fly with a commercial carrier for a certain amount of time to gain experience (read flighthours, not stick and rudder experience). It`s these students who are in the midst of their training, and those presently being offered pay-to-fly linetraining that I recommend you have a chat with:ok:.

And when your article comes together, could you please post a link here as well? Journalists have somewhat of a bad reputation here, mostly because things get mixed up and misunderstood. Good luck!

[wind check]

I have never worked for " Hapag Express" nor did I ever pay for line-training.
My first commercial flight ever was with a permanent contract in hand.


You are a lier my friend ;)

Would you tell us where you did your type rating and what was the deal ?? and what is your background after your type rating plus 100 hours? which company hired you with a permanent contract ? or shall I tell it for you ? :E

Antonio

[Fiske]

Wind check,

You clearly do not know despegue and know nothing
of his background. So I suggest you retract your
defamatory remark and apologise to him.

[callum]

Why cant these PTF wannabees just hold out untill times are better? Couldnt they just stick to a non flying job and rent out a C152/PA28 at their local flying club every weekend or when time permits? Its fun and will save a hell of alot of cash!

P.S Havent BALPA said anything about the PTF schemes?

[wind check]

Wind check,

You clearly do not know despegue and know nothing
of his background. So I suggest you retract your
defamatory remark and apologise to him.



:} you are a funny one! I know despegue as much as he knows me. His nationality starts with a B, his first name starts with a T and his family name starts with a C. He his not very tall, and he currently works for a company painted in blue.

Best regards from a friend from Murcia.

[PTU738]

Corendon aırlınes
Ryanaır
Wızzaır
Pegasus
Eaglejet avıatıon
Astreus

[lpokijuhyt]

Awhile back there was a post concerning the next step in the evolution of this beast...pay to fly in the left seat. Whoever posted that story, could you re-post it. Is this for real? I would like some validation. :uhoh:

[Rosbif]

Of course this will happen. Let's say you have 10000 Hrs, find yourself unemployed, and don't have 500 PIC on a common type. What do you do next? You can'y get a right seat anywhere because those places are for sale. All the contract jobs require 500PIC on type, so you can't go there. So if you can buy 500 PIC on an A 320 or 737NG, then a lot of contract positions become available. $50 000 seems justifiable (disgusting, but justifiable). I am surprised it hasn't happened already.

[Fiske]

Well in that case I stand corrected:eek:

[FR1A]

Ryanair don't charge their pilots to fly.

They pay them to fly.

[TheWanderer]

Awhile back there was a post concerning the next step in the evolution of this beast...pay to fly in the left seat. Whoever posted that story, could you re-post it. Is this for real? I would like some validation. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/worry.gif

I don't have this post you mention, but I personally know of Copilots offering the company to pay for their upgrade training and offered to fly the left hand seat training for their F/O pay, same way as they have already paid for their F/O RHS training.
Fortunately, this case was not accepted by the company due to pressure from the union, but it shows that it happens and that those who buy their typerating as copilot are willing to go further with this.

[loftustb]

And I too know pilots who have done private deals with management.........and those deals were accepted. Some of us lost our jobs and the ones who paid are still flying.

[captain_quagmire]

The Journey to the skies starts here, Become an Airline Pilot ? - Home (http://pilotcafe.weebly.com/index.html)

If anyone wants a good chuckle check this out, Two pay to fly students; Tens of spelling mistakes in the homepage alone.

[angelorange]

What a sad state of affairs - and how many real bmi FOs didn't get the chance to develop their skills and get flying pay because of this scheme?

And what job did these 150h line trained kids get? I see their job site is empty.....

Job Forum - The Journey to the skies starts here, Become an Airline Pilot ? (http://pilotcafe.weebly.com/job-forum.html)

[Airbus Girl]

Also tell the journo to contact BALPA - Carolyn Evans - as she will have lots of info.

[Rosbif]

How are the pilots who have bought the right seat going to move up into the left seat with no PIC on type? If seniority doesn't get you there any more, either because the companies don't last long enough, or they only hire DEC's with 500 PIC (which they must have got at another carrier or "parker penned"), how do you get your first common jet type command. It seems inevitable that airlines will start to sell this experience so that people can get over this unfortunate "catch 22" situation.

[cheakymunkie]

I'm fed up of hearing people blame the new cadets who are "prostituting themselves". They've just paid £70k for training and now they are facing an industry in crisis. They have the choice of paying an extra 30k for a type rating or refusing to do this on point of principal. I suppose they can then enjoy their clear conscience as they stack shelves at Tesco and contemplate repaying there wasted 70k initial training.

How about a bit of respect and encouragement for these up and coming aviators who are the victims of bad timing. The assumption that they are all blowing Daddys money so they can impress their friends with their jobs "flying shiny jets" is rediculous and oh so patronising. I suggest that sort of person is in a huge minority.

[Rosbif]

Agreed, and unlike any other trade (which is what it is), the qualifications are perishable. If you don't get a job, in two years you won't be able to get a job without some very expensive retraining. And most employers want you to be current (or recently so) on type.
What is needed is some clear, enforcable, universally recognised legislation which makes it illegal to turn a cockpit seat into a revenue seat. Until we have it, pilots will be forced to pay to play, or leave the industry.
We need a commercial pilot's licence to fly for airlines. The implication is that pilots are paid to be there.

[Skyhigh86]

The assumption that they are all blowing Daddys money so they can impress their friends with their jobs "flying shiny jets" is rediculous and oh so patronising. I suggest that sort of person is in a huge minority.


Surely you mean majority?

[cheakymunkie]

Are there more people in a huge minority or a tiny minority? I don't know... Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that in my experience, people who go throught flight training without a worry about the cost or are doing it to impress their freinds with a cool job, are few and far between.

[Mister Geezer]

cheakymunkie

I'm fed up of hearing people blame the new cadets who are "prostituting themselves". They've just paid £70k for training and now they are facing an industry in crisis. They have the choice of paying an extra 30k for a type rating or refusing to do this on point of principal. I suppose they can then enjoy their clear conscience as they stack shelves at Tesco and contemplate repaying there wasted 70k initial training.

How about a bit of respect and encouragement for these up and coming aviators who are the victims of bad timing. The assumption that they are all blowing Daddys money so they can impress their friends with their jobs "flying shiny jets" is rediculous and oh so patronising. I suggest that sort of person is in a huge minority.

I was a victim of bad timing - 9/11 was right in the middle of my training! However I have never paid a bean for a type rating, nor sold myself short either.

I will admit that the industry has changed considerably in that short space of time, yet paying for a type rating and working for a packet of mouldy sweets is not the only way of getting a foot on the ladder. I did not carpet bomb every airline but I targeted a few turboprop operators and worked hard to build up contacts and get myself known and get invited for a interview. I Instructed and flew Turboprops and then moved onto Jets then got my command and became a Line Trainer by the time I was 26, so the old 'apprenticeship' route worked very well for me personally. It still does work! ;)

Do I regret taking that path - not in the slightest. I know that I have already seen the best days of my career which is alarming to some extent yet I now have the chance to leave the airline industry and move into the corporate world. I feel somewhat relieved, since I feel the business aviation sector is less likely to resort to the 'dirty tactics' that seem to be so widespread in the airline industry.

Don't let the buggers grind you down and hold onto your cash! :)

[angelorange]

No they don't need to pay!!!!!!

They need patience and perseverance and character not the flash in the pan X factor, zero to hero if you can get a loan response. They need encouragement to try flying something other than an A320 simulator. Like a year in Africa or working at a Flying Club to gain hours and contacts.

I know a professional pilot who took 8 years just to get a CPL (in the days when you needed 700h minimum). It took him 2 years to save enough for a PPL. He did the postman, welder, stacking shelves jobs and he managed to get a grant to pay for £1k towards training. Now he's a Captain with over 5000h of excellent worldwide flying experience.

[Mister Geezer]

Like a year in Africa or working at a Flying Club to gain hours and contacts.

I agree totally and the old chestnut of 'that does not pay well' no longer washes really when you get paid peanuts after investing serious capital for these so called 'schemes'. (Some one pass me the sick bag please.... :yuk: It won't be long until pax need to pay to use one of those either :})

My other half is a 'tea lady' with the Orange Order and she is embarrassed to talk about how she and everyone else in the cabin earns more than the cadets!

[Van G]

I'm fed up of hearing people blame the new cadets who are "prostituting themselves". They've just paid £70k for training and now they are facing an industry in crisis. They have the choice of paying an extra 30k for a type rating or refusing to do this on point of principal. I suppose they can then enjoy their clear conscience as they stack shelves at Tesco and contemplate repaying there wasted 70k initial training.

How about a bit of respect and encouragement for these up and coming aviators who are the victims of bad timing. The assumption that they are all blowing Daddys money so they can impress their friends with their jobs "flying shiny jets" is rediculous and oh so patronising. I suggest that sort of person is in a huge minority.

So tell me. What about the people who have passed selection with an airline, not with a cheque book, but good old interview and sim check ability, and have now been waiting for years (whilst working menial jobs to pay the bills) for a shot at the RHS only to have one of these pay to fly chaps jump the queue. You expect me (and the many others) to respect them?

You're saying they are the victims?! Give me a break. :ugh:

[Vortex Surfer]

Hi Mister Geezer,

I think it is a good idea that pilots should have a "black list" of airlines that ask their cockpit crews to fund their entry into the company either by:

1. paying in advance their type rating or,
2. having it deducted from their salary or,
3. imposing a sub-scale salary for an extended period of time.

Indeed, even flag carriers impose this "sub-scale" salaries for up to two or three years to recover training costs!...

In the end, no matter how the airline does it, it always comes out the newcomer's pocket. Since training is part of an airline operational cost, it should be paid by the airline and never to be paid (in any form, see above) by the pilot.

I understand, on the other hand, the airline's concern for the newly hired to come in their airline, take a free type rating and then scram to another one. Then, the airline should be allowed to recover its costs. Logical.

Therefore, a type bonding should be the only reasonable solution and should be limited to two ot three years in time, no more. And not 5 years, like we tend to see nowadays...

It is time this aviation prostitution stops. If you want to pay to fly, go buy yourself a private licence and enjoy flying! If you still want to make a career out of it, never accept to fork out the dough. Let your conscience do the right thing and boycott these unscrupulous airlines from taking your parent's, bankers or your money to do the job that make them do profits.

[lpokijuhyt]

I think it is a good idea that pilots should have a "black list" of airlines that ask their cockpit crews to fund their entry into the company

Wow. I could only imagine the size of that list. It would stretch halfway across the Atlantic.

I understand your principles completely. But, the industry has changed into something quite repulsive in the last 2 years. It will never go back to how it once was. Unfortunately, the self funded Type Rating is here to stay. Do I agree with this principle...no way...but it is a fact of life in today's forever changed aviation landscape. I'm telling you, airlines bonding a new hire are like a dinosaur....extinct.

Principles and idealism are great.....except they don't put bread on the table.

[flapsfullretard]

do you think spending £105000 is bread on the table??????

[lpokijuhyt]

I was talking strictly about buying the Type. I have 4000 hours tt and Typed in 4 different jets....but one of those jets is not a 737. So, can't go the DE Capt route nor am I considered a cadet (since there is no need for me to spend thousands on ratings I already have....that doesn't make me too appealing to the airline or the training centre). So where does that leave me? Out in the cold, brutha.

[TheWanderer]

In Germany there have been cases going to court for type ratings / repayment / bonding of type ratings.

The Federal Labor Court, which is the highest labour court in Germany, has decided in 1994, that the value of a type rating is binding for maximum 1 year.
All agreements that bind the employee for more than 1 year are void.

The decision is based on multiple facts, including the fact that a type rating is only valid for 1 year and must be renewed after 1 year.

The text of the judgements can be found (in German) at BAG, Urteil vom 16.3.1994 - 5 AZR 447/92 (http://www.lexrex.de/rechtsprechung/innovativ/ctg1086615658094/1793.html) and BAG, Urteil vom 16.3.1994 - 5 AZR 339/92 (http://www.lexrex.de/rechtsprechung/innovativ/ctg1086615530461/248.html)

The same judge has also decided in the first sentence, that a Copilot has usually the status of an employee and not of a self employed, as he gets his roster from the company and has to obeye the orders of the Captain.

Since these are sentences of the Federal Labour Court, these decisions are binding for all Labour Courts in Germany and may be referenced to.

[Damianik]

i like this...please go on, somebody any input about this?

[lpokijuhyt]

TheWanderer: Thank you very much for this information. I wish my German language ability was a bit better because I would like to read the ruling.

[TheWanderer]

To clarify my previous post:
The type rating concerned was a Boeing 737-300 type rating.
The cost of the rating was contractually defined as 80.000 DEM (before the Euro, converted to Euro it is 40.903,35 EUR.)
The judge's sentence says that a bonding up to 1 year is acceptable, but not more than 1 year.

[TCL68]

Try using the translator. www.babelfish.yahoo.com (http://www.babelfish.yahoo.com). Copy and paste the web address, select the languages (to/from) and there you go.

It misses a few words, but you can get the gyst.

[cheakymunkie]

Van G

The cadets coming out of training now didn't know it would be like this when they started training. They are desperate, many of them have massive debts, and they will grab any opportunity they get.

I understand what you're saying, and I think the scheme is shocking. I didn't post on this thread to tell people to feel sorry for them. I posted as I found some of the stuff I read on here quite offensive. A friend of mine has recently got his frozen ATPL and is reluctantly considering this option. All I'm saying is don't blame the player, blame the game.

[FR1A]

Ipokxxxxx

Why would an airline take you on with 4000 hours -

Especially when you refer to them as scumbags

HR - have done a good job here and eliminated the .........

We want quality and not quantity in your case.

[FR1A]

By the way Ipokxxxx

4000 hours and 4 type ratings ain't great value no matter who's paying the bill.

[wanabe2010]

Ipokxxxxx

Why would an airline take you on with 4000 hours -

Especially when you refer to them as scumbags

HR - have done a good job here and eliminated the .........

We want quality and not quantity in your case.


another stupid comments.
we want quality, ahaha!!! wrong, they want MONEY!!!
HR have done a good job... HR has nothing to say as money decides who will have a foot in the cockpit.

we want quality!!! Mouahahahah! please stay away!

http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/buttons/reply_small.gif (http://www.pprune.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=5445363&noquote=1)

[nav8tor]

As a newbie on this forum I felt that the posts to date have been accurate and kinda scary. I'm a yank and we have been having similar probs on this side of the pond. The only saving grace (although it scares the SH*T out of the airlines) will be the age 65 rule finally catching up with them. Then they'll have to start hiring and training folks at a rate that will make their heads spin and their balance sheets run red. They'll also have to bring back those incentives to keep folks on property, but they won't have a choice. No tricks no, exemptions, no exceptions.

Then and only then will all of these "nice people" start to feel our pain. What's more if the new FAA proposals finally gain traction at some point in time, even the regionals will not be able to go after any one out of flight shool or one of these training academies (which are as close as you can get to pay to play since a lot of them run these so called certificate factories) since the new hiring mins tack on the requirement for a boatload of hours and an ATP.

What happens on this side of the pond will ripple outwards (the airlines would have hoped that it was the other way around with some of the aforementioned cost cutting schemes currently in play in the EU) and its effects will be felt far and wide.

As of now we have deal with them having their boots on our throats. I'm a recent furloughee with a regional airline that was driven into chapter 11 by our management types (guess who was asking the bankruptcy court judge let them keep their bonses?).

Until then keep yer heads down and don't take any crap!

[lpokijuhyt]

FRIA:

I find your willingness to put me down really childish. You don't even know me.

Man, I feel sorry for you. If you are that ignorant, you are truly a lost cause. Don't you get it big guy? The airlines accountants are not concerned with quality (as you stated). Do you think Oxford will promote an integrated ATPL student or modular student to the front of the pack for the airline interview? Geee...which one results in more profit for both the airline and the training organization? Buddy, the HR's movements are controlled by the accountants. Get it?

[FR1A]

Hey Ipokxxx

Sorry mate don't mean to be offensive.

Just trying to make the point that FR don't owe anyone on here a living. And contrary to popular belief on this site, it's not that easy to make the grade. As you know things have slowed down a lot lately and so has recruitment in Ryanair. With regards to training they have better success from freshly minted "cadets". We all know it's a revenue stream, but in fairness to Ryanair they haven't milked it as much as they could have, and only recruit what they need for operational purposes.

[Mister Geezer]

The cadets coming out of training now didn't know it would be like this when they started training. They are desperate, many of them have massive debts, and they will grab any opportunity they get.

I understand what you're saying, and I think the scheme is shocking. I didn't post on this thread to tell people to feel sorry for them. I posted as I found some of the stuff I read on here quite offensive. A friend of mine has recently got his frozen ATPL and is reluctantly considering this option. All I'm saying is don't blame the player, blame the game.

cheakymunkie

I appreciate what you are saying but bear in mind that this has to be the last option for anyone with big debts!

It is the same as asking your bank for another mortgage when you are struggling to pay the one that already exists!

"Hello Mr Bank Manager. I am in serious debt but I would like to try and sort it out but getting myself into even greater debt. Oh.... by the way I don't have any idea as to when I will be able to pay it off."

It is totally laughable and that is exactly what this farce is - laughable. It is not an 'opportunity' and please please persuade your friend to not embark on such a scheme. In years to come he will be very grateful that you talked some sense into him.

[Vortex Surfer]

Quote: "The cadets coming out of training now didn't know it would be like this when they started training."

1. Then why doesn't the flight school or academy tell them exactly that as they walk in the door? There are also plenty of Aviation & Aerospace Intelligence and Economic info available in the papers and on the web... Your banker or, at least, your garantor should know about this before handing you the big check!!!

Quote: "They are desperate, many of them have massive debts, and they will grab any opportunity they get."

2. So now what? Getting into more debt is the only solution??? Look, when a Doctor or a lawyer ends his studies, is qualified but inexperienced, does he or she begin to practice by immediately handing out a big fat check to his new employer when joining the team? Don't think so.

Conclusion:

Look, I think the German Gov. has done the rightful thing by limiting the type bonding to one year. (Read thread #103) Other Governments should act in the same way, starting with the US and their food-ticket paid pilots.

Airlines like any other companies have to stop making money out of their employees and pilots now must just start putting an end to this spiraling effect of funding their jobs and working for free.

You young cadet just fresh out of school, do you remember the best way out of a spin? Then why keeping the spiral motion going, if you know what I mean...

And to you experienced guys out there reading this, inside your collective agreements and labor unions or not, just act within your airlines to stop this trend as well. It's not just because you had to pay your way in, that everybody else has to go through the same as you. Bloody act.

In the end it affects you and your future carreer, as well.

[Vortex Surfer]

Just wondering what the list looks like by now.

Wouldn't it be easier to just make a list of which airlines that just normally pay for their pilots training :confused:

[Gutter Airways]

I saw mention in this thread that easyJet Pilots should get together and strike - why do they need to strike?

Can't BALPA put a case together and take the airline to court over this practice? The Pilots don't really need to get involved here. Yet.

While they're at it, BALPA should take the airlines to court over the ridiculous bonds we have to abide by also.

Someone needs to set a precedent, it's long been talked about in many a flight deck, what would happen if such-and-such was taken to court. With all the money members pay to BALPA, they should take the lead in both these cases.

[Haran_Banjo]

Airlines like any other companies have to stop making money out of their employees and pilots now must just start putting an end to this spiraling effect of funding their jobs and working for free.


Indeed they should but be honest with ourself, 45% or 55% of them they will go bust. They won't fly anymore due to bankrupcy. Some routes are so hard-fought that airlines have an option of just 1% to make money. That means few seat of difference between to make incomes or to make debts.

[Vortex Surfer]

Quote: "Indeed they should but be honest with ourself, 45% or 55% of them they will go bust. They won't fly anymore due to bankrupcy. Some routes are so hard-fought that airlines have an option of just 1% to make money. That means few seat of difference between to make incomes or to make debts."

If an airline operates with a 1% margin profit, then let them go bust. They don't deserve to be in aviation business. Let the real and truthful competiters take over their routes and hire their pilots with the right contracts to start with.

The other problem is that, as humans, we are all greedy. Pilots included. Sometimes airline unions go a little too far in their demands. But when airlines ask their pilots to pay for work (read abovementioned threads), that's just plainly :mad: unlawful.

Where is that list?...

[al446]

Can't BALPA put a case together and take the airline to court over this practice?

I suspect the answer to this is 'no' and I doubt that it is due to lack of motivation, they have substantial membership within EZY who are one of the leading PTFers. It is more likely to be because there is no case to answer, all practices being adopted, whilst distasteful to you and I, remain legal. Those who PTF enter a legal agreement with OAA or CTC willingly, the relationship between the the trainers and companies are legal commercial relationships and I have read no evidence of industrial malpractice due to this being suffered by existing employees. It would be ideal if someone could find the silver bullet to fire to stop this odious and insidious practice but I doubt it has yet been made. On another thread it has been suggested that TCs should refuse to train those who PTF but no union could advise or defend that as the TC would then be in breach of contract.

I think that if it is ever stopped it will more likely be due to safety concerns at a European level or European labour laws and this is possibly where BALPA has a part to play.

[A and C]

The thing we have to think about is return on investment, if an airline EMPLOYS you and pays for your type rating they should be able to ensure that they get some return on that investment.
A training bond is an acceptable way of ensuring return on investment IF the bond reflects the true cost of the training and the cost diminishes at a monthly rate over say two years.

The problem we have is that pilots are paying up front for ratings and then being taken on as CONTRACTORS, as a contractor under UK tax law you are required to have more than one sorce of income and be able to determin when you do the work. Now what would be the attitude of Easy Jet (lets say) if a contractor said sorry I am working for another airline today? and did not turn up!

It would seem to me that the best way to shut down the pay to fly thing would be to set the UK tax people off in the direction of these contractors, It is likely that if they find the contractors to be Employees then the airline will have to pick up the tax & IN bill!

[Haran_Banjo]

It would seem to me that the best way to shut down the pay to fly thing would be to set the UK tax people off in the direction of these contractors, It is likely that if they find the contractors to be Employees then the airline will have to pick up the tax & IN bill!

Ohhh, finally a brilliant person. If you want to stop this pay to get experience system you have to make it anti-economical for airliners.

This is an option and more useful that to write a simple article probably nobody would read. People are loosing jobs in many areas and some of them don't even afford to get food, imagine if they care to buy a newspaper and read about Mr. Despegue's tears. They would be really sorry for Mr. Despegue unluck, a person who actually started this system by buying T/R and 100 hrs on type :D

[al446]

Posts 122 & 123 are perhaps a touch wide of the mark. The PTF guys are trainees with the likes of OAA & CTC so not contractors. The contractors are the BRK guys with RYR who are legally taxable entities in Ireland and this is recognised by a reciprocal agreement with HMRC. Sorry to disappoint.

[340dog]

ever heard of the saying..JUST SAY NO...then perhaps these companies would actually hire employees and treat you as such.....as the one post said....Tesco didn't charge him to learn how to use the cash register!!!

[B-HVY]

I've been reading this thread over the past few days, and found it very worrying that PTF schemes with 150/250 hours are being offered not just by ruthless "flight training" companies but these companies being run by airline captains! This is why PTF can't be stopped, at least in its current form! These individuals are within the airline, they charge the chap next to them to fly with them! A name has been made in the thread a few pages earlier, but I wouldn't be surprised if many more were involved. Upon some research, the same name seems to have been involved in a project that never took off, 747 Freighter venture in Greece. Ring any bells anyone?
It is disturbing that these people have the nerve to sit comfortably in their career chair whilst others who are attempting to start out are put in front of a choice like "pay us xxK and we'll give you xx hours on xxx a/c" and then after that, off you go, just as inexperienced, unmarketable to other airlines, with an empty wallet.
This is the problem, with the "supply" coming from within the very profession, this "cancer" will never be eradicated! Someone said elsewhere, "demand" needs to be cut, but I'm afraid there will ALWAYS be someone with heavily-loaded pockets, someone whose dad is a Donald Trump, someone who has "set aside enough" (on a different thread, a certain individual in his late 30s or so claimed to have saved enough to buy up to 1000 hours of line time if necessary! How do you stop that?!?). The chain must be broken on the supply side.
The pilot community must find the unity and cohesion (especially in the LCCs!!! But not just those carriers of course, see bmi in the UK..) necessary to tackle this problem from within, break the supply chain, attract suitable candidates to the profession with appropriate airline involvement and selection.

[Haran_Banjo]

Great answer B-HVY, you said something corrects . There will be always someone with a full wallet and since they are the owners, they have the right and they deserve to invest or use those money as they love to do.

Aviation has a quite high rate of unemployment hence many people don't have any other solution to open their wallets if they want to gain valuable experience. It is not fair, it is no the final solution and some of them they are finally realizing. Mr despegues does it sound to you ?

ever heard of the saying..JUST SAY NO...then perhaps these companies would actually hire employees and treat you as such.....as the one post said....Tesco didn't charge him to learn how to use the cash register!!!


It's impossible therefore to have everybody with a same idea, I mean it's impossible to don't find someone who will say yes. If you think there are people going to a casino and loosing millions or bags full of pounds when in Africa there are poeple suffering starvation you may actually understand that pay to fly scheme are ... Let's say a bit irrilevant, greater dramas happen everyday on Earth surface. :{

[Guttn]

Maybe one should point the rulemakers in the FAA direction, and see how they have done things with their part135 and part121 minimum of experience requirements? And how about those insurance companies? Are they aware that they are insuring companies which allow pilots with absolutely no flight experience outside of their flightschool be at he controls? :confused: And perhaps the ALPA should have roadtrips to these flightschools and have a sit-down with the students showing them what PTF and pay for a rating does with T&Cs? And, perhaps, even names should be named, as done in a previous pst here???:mad:

[climbout]

Quite a few of the guys complaining here failed aptitude tests at the major airlines,and try-whatever it costs-to be pilots. Money should in many ways substitute skills/abilities..
Unfortunately professional airlines like LH,BA,KLM have to compete with this 'airlines'

[getting_poorer]

Has anybody actually contacted any of these people?.. Ie. journalists, the Authorities, Insurance companies.. Its one thing bitching to one another on this forum.... we all know what is going on!:ugh: We are not the people who need to be reading about it. I sent an email to a certain journalist highlighting this and a couple of other threads including one on the buffalo accident, but just got an automated out of office reply.. Anybody else?....

[zondaracer]

Here in the states, Gulfstream Academy is the infamous pay for job, and their practices have come to light after the Colgan Air crash.

Pilot Complaints Highlight Hazards of Regional Airlines - BusinessWeek (http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/dec2009/db20091231_408437.htm)

"
Fatal Crash

Continental Flight 3407, operated by Colgan Air Inc., crashed in icy weather on Feb. 12, 2009, outside of Buffalo, New York, killing all 49 people on board and one person on the ground.
The plane's captain had been trained by Gulfstream, which also has an aviation school known as Gulfstream Academy. The pilot and his first officer may have erred in responding to a stall warning by pulling up the nose of the plane rather than pointing it down to increase speed, the National Transportation Safety Board found.
Gulfstream also trained the co-pilot on the last fatal commercial airline flight before the Continental crash. That involved a Delta commuter plane, operated by Comair Inc., which used the wrong runway in Lexington, Kentucky, in August 2006, killing 49 people.
Gulfstream also previously employed the two pilots who crashed a Pinnacle Airlines Inc. (PNCL (http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/snapshot/snapshot.asp?symbol=PNCL)) plane with no passengers after deciding to fly at their jet's maximum altitude to have fun, the NTSB found. They crashed and died in Jefferson City, Missouri, in October 2004. The first officer attended Gulfstream Academy, according to the NTSB. "

"We offer the fastest possible transition to the 'Right Seat' of a commercial airliner," Gulfstream says.
For $32,699, students get 522 hours of training—including 250 hours as a first officer for Gulfstream International Airlines. That means student pilots are paying Gulfstream for the privilege of flying as first officers.
"Gulfstream is selling the job," says Charlie Preusser, a regional airline pilot who flew for Manassas, Virginia-based Colgan Air. "When you've got a guy fronting the cash, there's a lot of pressure on the company to keep him onboard no matter how bad he is." "

It's 5 pages, but an interesting read.

[TheWanderer]

It should be mandatory for all commercial training flights, that a second, fully qualified first officer with at least 1 year experience on type, is a member of the flight deck crew.

[737 Speedbrakes]

TheWanderer (http://www.pprune.org/members/307708-thewanderer), Was that not the case in the Amsterdam 737 accident?

[clanger32]

I think theWanderers suggestion is spot on. Not so much in that it would stop accidents occuring - if it all goes tits up in the last fifty feet for example, only the Captain or FO in the RHS is going to be able to even attempt to rectify. Accidents will always - unfortunately - happen regardless of the flight deck experience.

Why I think it's a great idea though, is that it removes the financial benefit to the company of having a PTF FO in the RHS...therefore starts to end this odious practice.

Not only that of course, but if something does happen to the Captain, the strain on the occupant of the RHS shouldn't be too big to bear.

[Takeoff53]

Farnair offers now as well Type Rating Courses ATR with Line Flying under Supervision.
Those who want to do Line Flying under Supervision (50 Sectors with a minimum of 65 hours) have to pass a screening/assessment (to be paid by the applicant) and if you pass the screening, the price for the type rating ATR42/72 and the 50 sectors comes to a grand total of approx. EUR 30'000.00

[alpha.charlie]

Flybe.com - Flybe Training - Pilot training (http://www.flybe.com/training/pilot_training.htm)

Am I reading this correctly? FlyBe offering TR and line training experience??


Type Rating Course
Aircraft Base Training
Line Training
Line Experience Flying
Type Rating Instructor Course
Doors and Exits
Emergencies and Evacuation

[go around flaps15]

They have been advertising that for a while.

[unb5]

Well I think someone should develope a EUROPEAN wideTrade Union that includes all JAA-ATPL holders sowe have a common voice in parliament. Maybe than we would have a chance to end the lunancy in the industry.:ugh:

[Q400 Pilot]

I think you will find that Flybe offer these services to other airlines, not to individual PTF pilots.