Private Charter Aircraft?

[MAXTHRUSTV1]

Hi,

I have been looking at a bunch of aircraft to use for executive and non executive charter in the UK. I have considered the SE GA-8 airvan and a C206 but this limits my operations to day time only. On the ME side i have looked at C402,C340 Piper Cheyenne, Chieftan, MU2K and Marquise.

Does anyone have any experience on these types or flying a similar operation? Im looking for any feedback or any help as to which one would be the best fit. Can the ME aircraft i have listed be operated single pilot?

Thanks

MAX :ok:

[learjet50]

MAX

Re your query re aircraft to operate

My old company has not operated these aircraft for over 10 years but from what I Remember (AND I STAND TO BE CORRECTED) these are the answers to some of your A/C

Forget single engined A/C they are too restrictive to operate .
C402 Ok I Think and Ok for Single Pilot Operation However I am not to sure on the single engine performace but think its OK

C340 Bad A/C single engine performace not good and it has small Cabin although its pressurised.
I Think you ae Ok Single Pilot but only if the Autopilot is Working

Cheyenne Good Aircraft Pressurised and reasonble size Cabin
as its a turbo Prop which means you have to have 2 Type rated Pilots for Commercial Flights

Cheiftain Good Aircraft Ok for single Pilot but again Autopilot has to be working otherwise 2 Rated Pilots.


MU2K and Marquise Never been certified on UK Register ND i THINK IT WOULD BE EXTREMLY COSTLY TO DO)


Just remember if you choose a Piston Engined A/c More and more Airfields especially to Larger ones do not hold stcks of Avgas any more so you will be limited to using smaller airfields if you need fuel

Please dont get me wrong as there are still Many Airfields sell Avgas but are more restrictive (IE Landing Aids /Opening Hours) than the Larger ones.

Of course Turbo prop Aircraft are a lot more expensive to Puchase than Piston A/c .
I hope this helps and please forgive me if I have upset anybody but the above are as I Remember them However I am 60 now and me memory is not what is was in my hayday


Regards


Gerry (Ex Northern Executive Manchester 1970-2007)

[Manual Reversion]

Turbine Islander (BN2T) I think can be operated single crew.
Just a thought!

[ab33t]

Also look at Commander and King Air 90

[Daifly]

King Air can operate single crew.

[lear60fellow]

Exactly, stay away from MU-2,I´ve flown them, very bad aircraft and too noisy for pax. MU-2 it´s the only aircraft where if you have an engine faliure after take-off you must not raise the gear, crazy, no?

King-air it´s good option and for Cessnas stay away from 421, they are great but corrosion on wing pillars and turbos are no the best, very expensive to maintain. Better a 414.

[NewTimer]

Twin turbine/jets need two rated crew for Commercial Air Transport operations under EU-OPS. Twin turboprops need only one.

NT

[what next]

Hi!

Twin turboprops need only one.

Yes, but with high requirements regarding the flying experience of the pilot. In my part of the world (don't know how the UK CAA is handling this), the number of flying hours required is stated individually in the OM-A of each commercial operator and can be "negotiated" to some extent with the authority. For a start-up business it will be quite difficult to find pilots who meet the requirements. Additionally, single pilot operation is penalised by the duty time regulations and mostly incompatible with executive operations (A to B in the early morning, B to A in the late evening...). Anyway, most executive customers don't like single pilot operation, some require two pilots always and some even require yearly simulator refresher courses for all crewmembers!

Regarding piston twins: Stay far, far, far away from them (for commercial operartion). I have co-owned a charter business for ten years pre JAR(EU)-OPS operating a fleet of up to six aeroplanes (C421, C404, C340) and it was never really profitable. The highest cost factors were maintenance and AVGAS. The aeroplanes have aged another 10 years since then, hourly rates of mechanics have more than doubled, availability of spare parts can be very problematic. The price of Avgas has risen a lot and is becoming more and more difficult to find.

So I personally would not start with anything other than a modern - still-in-production - turboprop. The choice is very limited and prices are high.

Greetings, Max

[His dudeness]

The real qusetions are:

what do you want to do ?

what can you spent ?

how much running costs can you afford ?

are you prepared and able to loose money before you make any ?

The Cheyenne is a nice airplane, but dated. Spares start to become an issue.

As what next pointed out, a piston twin too limiting, AVGAS is hard to get a a lot of places...

[what next]

Hi!

The Cheyenne is a nice airplane, but dated. Yes! And if you are very brave, you can also have a look at Merlins and Metroliners. They are excellent aircraft in terms of payload and fuel burn, very versatile (at least the Metro III and 23 that can carry either 19 passengers or two tons of freight through a proper cargo door) and can be found at absolute bargain prices. Ridiculously cheap even. But beware: You will need experienced pilots for such an aeroplane, otherwise the cost for maintenance and repair will get over your head.

Greetings, Max

[MAXTHRUSTV1]

Hi Everyone thanks for the replies and all the advice provided. My friend has around £1 Million so far to start up which is not a lot in avaition and is looking to raise more funds. Just to check that im not totally wrong on something its is correct that in the UK an EU no single engine aircraft is allowed to fly at night VFR or IFR for a commercial operation which would include for example a C208B? We did look at the DHC-6 but the prices are very expensive even for 75 models!! I will take the advice and look at some king airs and commander aircraft.

I have heard that the BN2T will not climb on single engine so put me off that one slightly! We are really looking for simple cheap aircraft to operate and maintain for executive air charter and also a scheduled service linking areas only covered by long train times which are rather remote in the North! Our initial thoughts on this were the GA-8 airvan for its carrying capacity of 7 pax and 1 pilot and its ability to land and take of on short strips also costing £390K brand new from factory! As mentioned we would be limited with this aircraft and are looking for additional ideas for a capable ME so thank you all for the input and advice i greatly appreciate it!

MAX

[what next]

Good morning!

My friend has around £1 Million so far to start up...

Thats quite an impressive amount of starting capital! Keep in mind that you don't have to buy your aeroplane(s) with that money, you only have to pay the leasing rates. Expect something like 1-2 percent of the aeroplane value per month.

Plan to use a substantial amount of of your starting capital for publicity. Before you have not spent at least 100.000 Pounds, no one will even know that your company exists. Always allocate monthly funds for publicity. Even if you really find your own littly niche, you will always have to face a lot of competition. And once the competition has found out about you and your niche, they will start aiming at your customers offering better aeroplanes at lower prices for the same service. If they are big enough, they will push you out of the market in no time, especially if you neglect your own publicity efforts (learnt this the hard way myself).

Do not underestimate the time it takes to get an EU-OPS operating license for a startup business. A year passes like nothing! And you need to have access to an aeroplane all that time (and pay the associated bills), because without an aeroplane, you cannot apply for the license. Get in touch with your CAA as soon as you can (today!) and listen to their advice. Also, you need qualified (!) postholders for your operation. Again, ask your authority how many posts can be held by a single physical person. You may have to pay all those people during the idle time that it takes you to be issued your operating license. You will need to have access to instructors and examiners (class rating or type rating depending on the aeroplane) for every type of aeroplane that you have. This fact alone may exclude some exotic types from your list... (e.g. how many MU2 examiners are there in the UK? And are they willing (and allowed) to co-operate with your company, that might be in competition with their usual employer? How much do they charge for a checkride? How much will it cost to fly them in and put them up in a hotel? I know these things from my Metroliner days, believe me...)

Just to check that im not totally wrong on something its is correct that in the UK an EU no single engine aircraft is allowed to fly at night VFR or IFR for a commercial operation which would include for example a C208B?

Yes, this is correct. I don't exactly know about night VFR (that might differ between variuos contries), but SE IFR commercial is definitely a no-no all over Europe. In my country (don't know about the UK), SE commercial operations are not EU-OPS regulated, but like other forms of aerial work they are under the authority of local aviation administrations instead. Therefore, the plan to start with a single engine operation and add larger aircraft once it is up and running does not work here, because there are totally different authorities involved. Again, that might be different in the UK, though.

I have heard that the BN2T will not climb on single engine...

I have flown quite a bit on multi-engine piston aeroplanes (still do as an instructor) and believe me: The only place where an MEP will climb on one engine at MTOM is inside the publicity leaflet of its manufacturer. Any Part 23 MEP at least. All of them. Because Part 23 does not require specific climb rates/gradients on one engine, but simply "positive" climbing capability. And obviously 0.01ft/min is positive enough for certification.
I for myself (after the third egine failure) have sworn that I will never ever again fly commercially with a piston aeroplane. I will never allow my wife or son to get on board a commercially operated piston eroplane. With no exception whatsoever. (Instructing is different because you do not fly at MTOM, therefore you have some reserves for single-engine operation - which is still marginal however!)

...carrying capacity of 7 pax and 1 pilot and its ability to land and take of on short strips...

Twin Otter. Do228. But only with two pilots please.

Good luck,
Max

[Pace]

Whats next

EV-55 Outback - New Generation Utility Aircraft, Twin Engine, 9 Passengers (http://www.evektor.com/outback/project-update.asp)

This all new twin turbine looks very interesting. They claim low purchase cost and running cost. It certainly looks the business.

Cannot see that it is pressurised? as they quote 220 kts cruiise at 10,000 feet.

But its STOL ability is amazing.

having had a lot of experience in light piston twins I take your point on very low level engine out peformance but that is climbing.

Level flight most are good on one engine and level flight can be 500 feet.

Most pilots have it ground in them to climb when often it maybe better to set up a level cruise.

Pace

[plugster]

Your mission statement is far from precise.
As for the older piston twins: Still cheaper to operate than any turboprop on missions less than 500nm ( don't get me on details here). Easier to get pilots, class rating vs. typerating on a turboprop. Don't try your luck on exotic types unless you have a very special mission that the very aircraft fits. The MU2 never saw light in europe. Even the cheyennes are getting old and it's becoming more and more difficult to get spare parts.
The KA90 is still more expensive to operate on most legs than a 421 as the early versions lack speed. The 421 has one advantage for the passengers and that is noise. You won't come close in a 414 plus its a runway hog. (depends on your mission - again)
There is always a reason for an aircraft to be cheaper than others on the market. Either its more difficult to handle (e.g.C421), or the operating costs are higher.
Whatever aircraft you operate: Make sure it flies often enough. On piston engines corrosion is a big killer and can only be avoided by flying it on a regular ( no, not once a month) base. The only way for these engines to ever make TBO is flying them frequently.
Chosing the right airframe is one part, the other one is avionics. It sure looks great to have a ton of instruments in the office but who will repair it? Spare part availability comes into play again. The more common the avionics the better.
Don't expect to buy a cheap airframe and put in a bit of maintenance work to make it fly/look good again. A thorough prebuy inspection is an absolute must. Don't save money here. Paying a maintenance engineer of your choice 5k$ for the prebuy is nothing compared to the **** you may run into without a proper prebuy.

[Pace]

Plugster

One big problem looming with piston/avgas twins is the fuel.

With mogas shooting sky high some estimates for 2010 of £1.20 per litre for cheap unleaded what on earth will AVgas hit?

The bigger twins will cost a small fortune in avgas every hour. :ugh:

Pace

[what next]

Hello!

With mogas shooting sky high some estimates for 2010 of £1.20 per litre for cheap unleaded what on earth will AVgas hit?

I have been to places in Italy where Avgas is sold for 2,60 Euros per Litre already now. At the typical consumption of a C421 of 230 lbs/hr (twice that during climb...) the fuel alone costs 370 Euros per hour. And with five or even six people on board (*) you need to refuel on the return flight. Every time!

But the biggest problem (for me) with vintage piston twins is the availability of spares. A '421 that I used to fly was grounded for almost six months because there was no spare oil pump to be found anywhere. And when they found one, it cost over 5.000 Euros. Because it was the only spare oil pump for a Continental GTSIO 520 worldwide at that time. Next time, they will ask 10.000 Euros for one. Or twenty. Simply because somebody will pay for sheer frustration. You cannot base a commercial operation on anything like that. If your aircraft is grounded for technical reasons, it must be back in the air within a couple of days. Otherwise you lose your customers.

Greetings, Max

(*) Interestingly, the smaller and cheaper the aircraft, the more passengers will be inside (watch next time when you are on a GA apron). Customers who charter a piston twin because that's all they can afford will always come with as many people as there are seats. Because they pay for it and they don't want to lose those seats they pay for. Thats also why you always operate piston twins at (or above) MTOM with absoultely no performance reserve.

[His dudeness]

class rating vs. typerating on a turboprop

you mean a ME class rating vs type specific classratings or what?

The 'classic' KingAir rating is a a class rating (90-99-100-200).

In fact any FAR 23 rating is a class rating, even the Jets like CJ´s and the like are classratings.

If you can´t afford a rating, better don´t start at all, me thinks.

[plugster]

You will agree on the point that there aremore MEP classrated pilots out there than King Air rated ones. That was the point I was trying to make.
Let's say you employ a pilot without the beech classrating on a king air, he stays 2 years and moves on further up ( typical scenario i would say). Make it a rough 10k for the class rating. With 200h/pa flying ( which i suppose is a lot for a startup) thats about 25€/h typerating costs,x2 for AOC operation. Makes 50€/h. Would you call that nothing?

If you read the first post again you will notice that the operation is ment to be established in the UK, a bit far from Italy and their ripoffs to do serious business with decent payload on a piston twin at least. Fuel costs are not to be underestimated, however it's just a part of the whole thing. Replacing the gear or leaking fuel tanks on a 20 year old king air isn't cheap either.
A PT6-21 comes at about 160k€ each, hot section inspection not included.
I know the issues with the 421s, the one I flew is waiting for a new gear since september and may do so till august.

[V1 VR V2]

I have noticed a lot of air taxi and charter companies using DA-42 aircraft only for this purpose. Are these aircraft any good i understand that they would be much cheaper than some of the above mentioned but only can carry 3 PAX and dont even consider a climb out with an engine failure!

V1

[12Watt Tim]

Max

Friendly piece of advice. If you are asking these questions on a public forum then you are going to be haemorrhaging money while you learn this business. It is a very tricky sector, and you don't even seem to know the basics.

Instead of coming on here, I would suggest that you hire someone who knows GA. It will save you a lot of money in the long run. I would have offered my services if you'd asked a few months ago, but have a new job myself. There are people out there that will help you with all of this, but there are also those that will over-sell their skills or massively overcharge you. For example, I know a new start that spent more than twice the time and money it should to get an AOC, because of one individual who claimed he knew what he was talking about but didn't, and many people pay £20k or more for an ops manual, whereas I know a very highly-respected professional who would write one for £5,000.

Hey, on a part time basis I'll advise you. In a couple of hours a week I could save you ten times what you paid me, just through my experience.

I almost simply posted that you would get eaten alive, but I reckon that is a more constructive post.

V1 VR V2

Quite the comedian, eh?