Float plane flipped Gold Coast [Archive]

QldPilotGuy

9th Jan 2010, 04:10

Three injured in seaplane landing

January 9th, 2010

EMERGENCY services have rushed to Tipplers on the Gold Coast after a seaplane had a hard landing injuring three people.
RACQ CareFlight has winched down a paramedic to the scene to assess and treat those injured.
Initial reports indicate there were six people aboard the plane at the time of the incident.
The accident occurred about 12.45pm.
At this stage the extent of their injuries is unknown.

goldypilot

9th Jan 2010, 04:51

ouch

Anyone have any photo's??

goldypilot

9th Jan 2010, 04:59

just saw it on the tv. cloud nine cessna 185 it is

Shimmer

9th Jan 2010, 07:00

If anybody knows if the pilot is okay could they please PM me asap?
Very concerned and can't get in contact with him!

superdimona

9th Jan 2010, 07:23

It's kind of sad that most of the time there's a plane crash, the media reports about the state of the passengers but the poor old pilot may as well not exist.

eocvictim

9th Jan 2010, 09:35

News reports indicate he is A-OK :ok:

Other than he is 19 and now they're questioning his experience :=

Apparently he clipped a crab pot.

All gathered from nine news so my post is moot.

goldypilot

9th Jan 2010, 10:23

ahhhh the old 19year old pilot. I dont like how people are getting this idea that the young pilots these days can't tango like the old fella's. Well i do admit i have seen the odd young driver that just cant do it yet. However, i have also seen alot of young drivers that have just as good stick and rudder skills as the old blokes. Not taking a dig but it is just something i have noticed latly.

Tilster

9th Jan 2010, 11:25

All else considered, of course.... how much more experiance would an experianced pilot be at getting caught in crab pots???? hmmmm :confused:

Shimmer

9th Jan 2010, 12:06

Seems to be a more detailed story than what other sites are posting...

Seaplane flips after crabpot tangle Local Gold Coast News | goldcoast.com.au | Gold Coast, Queensland, Australia (http://www.goldcoast.com.au/article/2010/01/09/177161_gold-coast-news.html)

"The pilot of the Cloud 9 (http://www.cloud9seaplanes.com/) seaplane decided to abandon the take-off as the crabpot was banging into the plane off South Stradbroke Island.
Cloud 9 part-owner, Michael Cooke, said his pilot had done a marvellous job putting the plane down under the circumstances.

``He decided rather than to keep flying and endanger the lives of those on board he would put it down.'' said Mr Cooke.

``Another boat was in the channel and he hit the sandbank."

A freak accident with no correlation to the experience of the pilot?

ab33t

9th Jan 2010, 19:36

Thank goodness they got out ok

clinty83

9th Jan 2010, 21:16

Great news all are out ok. I say big deal the pilot was 19. He/She I'm sure will learn a lot from what happened in reflection. Just hope they get back on the horse.

dghob

10th Jan 2010, 01:14

I've just come back from a week's cruising southern Moreton Bay and during that time I noticed that there seemed to be more crab pots than normal put out in what are usually fairly busy channels at this time of year. Also a lot more pot floats seemed to be hard to spot because they were dirty or small. It's possible some of the pot placements are from holidaying people new to crabbing. With some of the very low tides earlier this week a lot of pot lines were floating near the surface at slack water. I didn't go near Tipplers but it's not surprising if the float plane hooked a pot in an area where he might not have expected to find one.
dghob

The Green Goblin

10th Jan 2010, 02:31

And a lot of inconsiderate crabbers have 30m of line on pots in 3m of water. So you avoid the float only to get caught in the 27m of line adjacent to the float......

Very annoying for boaties out on the water......Must be a pain in the arse for the float operators!

FOD_Hazard

10th Jan 2010, 05:09

Glad to hear that everyone got out OK, almost makes me cry seeing yet another float plane upside down though. How many times has ELQ been upside down now??

"Well i do admit i have seen the odd young driver that just cant do it yet. However, i have also seen alot of young drivers that have just as good stick and rudder skills as the old blokes. "

Stick and rudder skills will certainly help you as a float pilot once you are airborne....they wont help you a bit when you are on the water surrounded by power boats, jet skis, sail boats, fishermen, boat wakes, para sailers, swimmers, snorkellers, kayakers,sandbars etc etc. Its when you are on the water that you want every bit of experience you can get. Flying a float plane is very simple once you are airborne.

Float pilots earn their $$$ from the moment the plane starts till the time it leaves the water they then start earning the $$ again from the time they make the decision where to land till the time they shut down. The part in between leaving the water and landing is the easy bit.

I have seen 400hr pilots that start flying floats pick it up much easier than 2000hr guys. I have also seen guys with 3000hrs TT and 500hrs in a relatively simple and sedate float environment attempt to make the step up to larger aircaft in coastal areas and not be able to cut the mustard. Having flown in that particular area I am sure that cloud nine would have thoroughly checked out the pilot before letting him lose in such a difficult environment but experience in the air and good piloting skills can mean very little on the water.

Just wondering why the water rudders are down in some photos and up in the others.....Rapid decel may cause the handle to flick forward, But I doubt it...just hope I never find out.

dash 27

10th Jan 2010, 05:59

With more lives than a lucky cat, ELQ has risen from far worse.
I've many thousand hours on the old girl and the challenge of Tipplers is probably the most challenging esturine operation in the country. I picked up a crabpot in the broadwater before dusk and felt it when attempting to raise the rudders. They jammed, so I shut down to investigate. Finders keepers in a channel and i emptied the contents into the float locker. Getting it out after dark was more of a challenge. Never took one flying. Imagine only possible if you forget to retract the rudders. Under normal circumstances the rudders tuck back in the water flow. The danger is rudder reversal if they are hang out far enough. And the northern sandbank has won against 2 now and tipplers boasts 3 flips now. Age means nothing. I used to fly ELQ at tipplers when I was 19. Just glad all are ok. The back row of ELQ never offered any favours/comforts for inverts. Favourite and first floaty to fly. I remember the technique with the edo 3730 converted amphib floats. Doesn't look like she wears those shoes any more. Hope all parties including ELQ are airborne again soon. ;)

goldypilot

10th Jan 2010, 08:08

thank you dash 27. age means nothing. This was a simple way of sayin what i am thinking.

zulugurl

10th Jan 2010, 18:37

Yeah, like FOD Hazard, it breaks my heart to see another floatplane broken like that. They are far too beautiful and rare to kill off - lets hope someone does decide to fix the graceful old bird and restore it to its glory.

Glad to see everyone is safe too - it could have been worse. and what a lesson to the rest of us floatplane pilots and new ones to come. Learn from other's mistakes because life is too short to make them all yourself!

The water rudders? hmmm..... in the first pics posted - they were down ..... in the next pics - they were up ????? My first thought was that the pilot had forgotten to pull them up when taking off - that would probably account for some noise as he became airborne (once the pressure of the water was not there and they flicked free) ?????

Lets hope that the young pilot gets back on the horse.

clinty83

10th Jan 2010, 20:27

Hi all

Just wondering if I'm correct here I am sure they're are many more experienced float pilots around then I. (dont hesitate to correct me)

I have done an amphib endorsement on a Beaver but only the endorsement. The job I had lined up was affected by the GFC and I never got a chance to start.

Water rudders go up at the moment the power goes up for take off. If you dont do this the rudders become super sensitive, because of the dynamic movement of the water around them, and it would be hard to keep control. It may also bend or damage the rudders.

If I'm correct I would suggest the forces of the accident deployed the rudders considering the rapid decellaration and, when the water rudders are picked up the leaver is pulled aft. As for why they are up in other pics I dont know maybe the cable sanpped and gravity is just affecting them. I must say though I hadn't seen the pics.

Glad all are ok, hope the young fella is able to get back in the cockpit soon.

FOD_Hazard

10th Jan 2010, 22:14

Clint,

If the water rudder cable snapped and the plane is upside down then the water rudders will be in the up/retracted position (observing the laws of gravity)....not pointing towards the sky in the down position. In the first few pics they are in the down position and actually defying gravity. The reason I asked about the position of the water rudders is that they should have been retracted before the start of the attempted take off. If they had been retracted at the start of the take off run then it is more than likely that the plane would not have been dragging the crabpot during the takeoff run.
Many experienced float pilots have left the water rudders in the down position for the occasional takeoff, Once up on the step they tend to flap around and can cause damage to the transom of the float rather than affecting the directional control of the aircraft. For crosswind takeoffs the water rudders are usually left in the down position during the power up phase and retracted once the air rudder becomes effective.

Goldy,

I agree that age means nothing...some pilots start flying at 16 some start at 50..... but experience is everything. Thats why most operators have min experience requirements rather than min age requirements.

Beavers rule

11th Jan 2010, 02:15

Pleased to heat everyone is OK. Have to agree with a couple of posters about the water rudders. Don't forget water rudders are also spring loaded to keep them in the water for max efficiency especially on x wind take offs until the aircraft gets on the step. Once on the step the air rudder takes over directional control and the water rudders are retracted. I would have thought if ELQ was on the step when it picked up the crab pot line, the only thing to snag the line would be the water rudders. Assuming they were down, they should have flicked up allowing the line to drop off. In many hours of float flying the only times I have snagged any sort of rope is at idle speed or there abouts with the water rudders down. Can't see how else it can be done, Floaties draw very little water when full bottle on the step. BR

Diatryma

11th Jan 2010, 02:54

If the crab pot became tangled in the rudder/s I would think it would be tailling behind the aircraft in flight rather than banging around on the outside of the aircraft somewhere as described?

Di

CaptCirrus

11th Jan 2010, 04:45

I don't know Di, those cray pots are pretty heavy and would have quite a lot of drag in the water, kind of like a sea anchor.

drunkensailor

11th Jan 2010, 08:46

I don't know Di, those cray pots are pretty heavy and would have quite a lot of drag in the water, kind of like a sea anchor.
Esp when they are full of sandies :eek:
just heard the news, one of the pax is an old mate from a while back. punctured lung for one, nothing major. It is a slightly extravagant way to let the world know that even at 31 you can pull a 21yo bit o fluff.:}

Ejector

11th Jan 2010, 11:58

Upside down in the water, good work to get the old folks out.

I presume ELQ the old girl is owned by the insurance company once again now and insurance requirements go up again.

What kind of floats are they Just Curious?

Hope the lad gets back on the horse again.

Lunch Lady Doris

12th Jan 2010, 22:27

This is the greatest spin story of all time! Where is the crab pot? Not to be seen in any of the pictures...

Seems to me the big point is being missed, running into a sandbank at low tide! It happened on exactly the same sandbank 15 years ago because the guy didn't know the waterways well enough.

No crabs were harmed in the making of this story...

FOD_Hazard

13th Jan 2010, 00:00

LLD. Thats exactly what I thought but if you take a look at the pics you can see quite a large dent in the lower ventral fin...pretty sure the flip would not have caused any damage to the lower half of the aircraft unless the whole tail section has moved downwards due to the impact of the tail fin on the sandbar (ie bent spine). Am surprised that the pilot did not notice a lack of performance during the takeoff and abort sooner (as CC stated it must have been like towing a sea anchor).

As for the pilot getting back in the air...unfortunately, post accident the considerable rise in insurance premiums are usually the deciding factor.

Beavers rule

13th Jan 2010, 01:40

Can't possible see how a reasonably loaded 185 would be able to fly dragging a crab pot or anything else for that matter.
If the pot was snagged on one float there is no way known you could even keep the machine in straight line let alone lift off :ugh:

FOD_Hazard

13th Jan 2010, 03:15

Well said BR the whole crabpot story does seem like BS but I wasnt there so im not going to say either way.

After looking at the pics for a second time pic 4 clearly shows the ding on the ventral fin I was talking about. Same pic also shows some nice big creases in the empenage no doubt caused by impact so not all that unlikely that the ventral fin damage i spoke of in previous posts was also caused by impact.

Seems to me the big point is being missed, running into a sandbank at low tide! It happened on exactly the same sandbank 15 years ago because the guy didn't know the waterways well enough.
That would come down to pilot experience and we better not question that. As previously stated, Experience does count...Last week I was airborne before the sandbank with exactly the same load on board....but last week there was a 15kt headwind today there is only 5....

Lunch Lady Doris

13th Jan 2010, 04:27

Age does not equal experience, and experience does not equal hours.

If you run a floatie into shallow water and bump sand she slows down, then she bites and slows down real fast then you have an 'experience'.

Fantome

13th Jan 2010, 10:21

dash 27

ELQ the 1968 surviver
With more lives than a lucky cat, ELQ has risen from far worse.

'Far worse'? Pray tell what ever exceeded the latest?

Down on the west coast of Tasmania in 1987, ELQ ran out of noise near Sarah Island.

Two years late, ditto, between Green Island and Cairns.

Believe it or not the driver was the same on each occasion. HL, (aka 'Last Light'), forgot to put the cap back on after refueling, due yabbering too much to the waiting pax.

Our man was also an accomplished piano man, of the jazz variety. Gave the floats away for a while. Went back to Jupiters. If he left the lid up on the goanna, seemed there was little risk of running out of noise.

BULLDOG 248

14th Jan 2010, 00:47

Sure looks shallow to me :{

Ejector

19th Mar 2010, 00:44

Is there a report yet on this accident with the collision with that shallow sand bar at low tide?

Did the company get over Vh-ELQ kissing the sand bar and get back on the horse and continue or did they fold up shop? I hope they got over it all OK after the media feeding frenzy.

How many float hours do you need for the insurance companies to say you are experienced as a water plane pilot and offer much lower premiums?

Ejector

21st Mar 2010, 13:29

Any idea when it should be out then?

Interesting from their web site,
" Our Aircraft :Cloud 9 Seaplanes operates a 5-passenger seat Cessna aircraft. We have invested in the latest equipment to ensure the safety and comfort of all our passengers." A quick search of the aircraft in question VH-ELQ would hardly agree with that comment with it being a 1968 machine.
But may be this person wrote that, also from the website, "About Us : Cloud9 Seaplanes is owned and operated by the oldest flying family in Australia, dating back to 1915."
Well, i am sue would be factual of some distant relative, why else would you publish stuff like that, but what a bizar statement. Really Bizar.

Maybe I could invite a 3rd great nephew in law of Wilbur Wright to invest $1 into my scenic flight company and out do it and better that statement, well it is a Rumour Network here right :)

Gezz, I was not trying to sound hard, I just giggled. :eek: I hope they go strong and update their fleet to 1970's :ok: Even a aviator form 90 years ago would be happy with that.

At the end of the day, a lot of money and head aches would be in a operation like this I would think and often mortgaged the house, no one wants to see that screwed up over a crab pot.

I ant to see if the accident report will try to ban crab pots at that resort as a reaction. Or even better, see in the regs later in the year, Do not hit crab pots, penalty 50 units.

1915:O

Numbers Up

22nd Mar 2010, 03:59

New floatie back in the sky's over GC - VH - NTK C206 over the last week or so - can only assume its cloud 9's replacement..

Ejector

22nd Mar 2010, 06:56

Well that is good news, wish them the best of luck to pick up and get going again. One would think the collision with the sand bar did the damage, the crab pot sounds a bit craby :} (tongue and check). **** happens I understand sometimes. :ok: I remember reading online about CASA making that Sydney operator making a STC for a quick release for a float C206 called VH-WHI so that if or when it flipped on take off or landing with the flaps down one could open the rear doors easily. I wonder if all C206 on floats in oz had to have that so they are not flying coffins or just that Sydney operator?