Aussie Jetstar workers held in Vietnam [Archive]

Long Bay Mauler

8th Jan 2010, 07:22

From the West Australian:

Vietnamese authorities have arrested the former head of Jetstar Pacific and prevented two of its Australian employees from leaving the country after the carrier reported losses on fuel contracts, state media said.
Luong Hoai Nam, 47, former general director of Jetstar Pacific Airlines - a partnership between the government’s investment arm SCIC and Australia’s Qantas Airways Ltd - was taken into police custody in Hanoi on Thursday, the Tuoi Tre (Youth) newspaper said.
Online newspaper Vietnamnet reported that two Australian executives of Jetstar Pacific, identified as Daniela Masilli and Tristan Freeman, were not allowed to leave the country.

A spokesman at Australia’s Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade confirmed that the two Australians have been prevented from leaving Vietnam and said the Australian embassy in Hanoi is seeking further details.
The Tuoi Tre newspaper quoted a report by state investigators that Nam and the two Australian deputy general directors flouted a board of directors resolution on buying aviation fuel futures, leading to losses of more than $US31 million ($A33.81 million).
The resolution only allowed the general director and his two deputies to buy fuel futures up to the end of 2008, but they extended the purchase until May last year, the report said.
Police also searched Nam’s homes and offices in Hanoi and the southern commercial hub of Ho Chi Minh City, the newspaper said.
Officials at Jetstar Pacific and police were not immediately available for comment.
State media has quoted Nam as saying that most airlines in the world suffered losses from buying fuel futures because of volatile oil prices over the past two years which peaked at $US143 per barrel and then slumped to as low as $US39 per barrel.
In 2007, Australia’s Qantas bought 18 per cent of Pacific Airlines and turned it into a low-cost airline, operating as Jetstar Pacific. Qantas’s stake has since increased to 27 per cent.
Nam was the general director of Pacific Airlines since 2004 and resigned late last year citing personal reasons.
AP

sand_groper

8th Jan 2010, 09:31

interesting news from the land of pho bo and honda wave's...

One would hope that the DFAT officials act accordingly to protect the legal rights of the involved Australian individuals and ensure a just investigative process prevails...

Given the volume of Australian aid and surge in foreign investment since Vietnam's succession to the WTO, this should prove an interesting test of practiced standards of legal transparency and diligence in Vietnam.

:ok: Sandy...

Buster Hyman

8th Jan 2010, 10:05

http://blogs.smh.com.au/lostintransit/archives/jetstar_magda.jpg

Sunfish

8th Jan 2010, 17:29

This is not Qantas bashing but....

1. DFAT will do absolutely nothing to help these guys that would possibly endanger the career prospects of any Australian employee of DFAT. That has been proven time and again. The applicable phrase is "All assistance short of actual help".

2. Working with Asian companies in partnerships works like this....

The Asians are not supposed to lose money - ever.

Western partner is supposed to lose money and at some point Asian partner buys them out, then the business starts making money.

To put it another way, Qantas's overseas investments are a waste of time and money that will absorb far too much Board and senior management time, let alone money, compared to their eventual value. Give it away now. There is nothing Qantas has in the way of expertise that Asians can't access for themselves without a partner.

To put it yet another way; the list of western companies that have bankrupted themselves trying to make money in Asia is very long.

breakfastburrito

8th Jan 2010, 19:48

Vietnam scores poorly for corruption, political rights, press freedom & civil liberties. Overall it ranks 131th out of 150 on the democracy profile.
On the corruption scale it ranks 94 out of 149.
But the business Masters of the Universe know better & can roll all before them.
Source: WorldAudit.org (http://www.worldaudit.org/countries/vietnam.htm)

tail wheel

8th Jan 2010, 20:51

To put it yet another way; the list of western companies that very profitably and successfully operate in Asia is very long.

They include Proctor & Gamble, Shell, BP, Amoco, Texaco, Occidental Petroleum, Boeing, Pratt & Whitney, Kenn Borek, Texas Instruments, Microsoft, Cisco, Mercedes Benz, Volkswagen, BHP, ANZ Bank, PricewaterhouseCoopers, KPMG, Ernst & Young, etc ad infinitum.

Sunfish, give it a rest, eh? :ugh:

Windshear

8th Jan 2010, 23:05

Jetstar executives questioned in Vietnam over $34 million
From: news.com.au January 08, 2010 4:22PM Increase Text Size Decrease Text Size Print Email Share Add to Digg Add to del.icio.us Add to Facebook Add to Kwoff Add to Myspace Add to Newsvine What are these? TWO senior Jetstar Pacific executives are reportedly being questioned in Vietnam and are not allowed to leave the country.

The chief operating officer, Daniela Marsilli, and the chief financial officer, Tristan Freeman, are being questioned over the loss of almost $34 million linked to petrol reserves costs, the ABC reports.

Jetstar Pacific's former chief executive, Luong Hoia Nam, was arrested yesterday.

A spokeswoman for Australia's Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade said authorities had prevented two Australian employees of the company from leaving Vietnam.

caneworm

9th Jan 2010, 02:34

A business deal has gone south and money has been lost, someone must pay and someone must be punished and it won’t be the Vietnam Govt.

Tailwheel, you’re right because all of these companies would have exercised due diligence upon due diligence and then some. They would have made sure they understood the industry, the market, the SWOT analysis and most of all the people they were about to hop into bed with.

Sunfish, you’re right because Qf, (in Dixon’s haste to expand J*’s empire) would have slipped up on a few of the above, most of all on understanding their new business partners, they being the W & the T in SWOT.

I cannot imagine for a moment there has been anything dishonest or underhanded in Qf’s handling of this matter. It’s probably a combination of not understanding the lay of the land and the Qf juggernaut going up there to reinvent everything and tell ‘em how it’s gonna be. It doesn’t work like that in Asia, particularly in Vietnam.

One could conclude, (by the advanced state of things with J* and Air Asia) that Qf saw this ****estorm looming and decided to cut & run, meanwhile leaving J* Pacific management to mop up the mess.

indamiddle

9th Jan 2010, 02:48

fin review today suggested the 1 arrest and 2 non detentions are political re hedging losses.
someone with egg-foo-yum on face not happy and wanting to move the blame?

KABOY

9th Jan 2010, 02:53

Tailwheel,

I think he was referring to any JV with an asian organisation. The companies you mention are not involved in any joint ventures, they are their own entity.

However, you will find some of these companies are in JV under another name and what Sunfish mentions is not far from the truth!

hongkongfooey

9th Jan 2010, 09:42

Just a thought :
The wee little one says that they have just lost the money on hedging like every other airline.
Did every other airline lose an average of 6 and a bit million per aircraft ( fleet of 5 for US 31 million loss ) :confused:
The local news in 'Nam ( yeh I know, questionable credibility ) is insinuating a certain pair of Aussies ignored the wishes of the rest of the board, serious allegations indeed :eek:

LostInSaigon

9th Jan 2010, 18:16

hongkongfooey is right, this pair decided they were smarter than the board and went against their wishes and decided they knew all about fuel hedging. The end result was a loss of an significant amount of money not to be sneezed at especially when it is mainly government money as the airline is still 70% owned by them. Of concern for the investigators is the lack of traceability of where this money has gone, you don't mess with government money in this country.

It is not just the fuel hedging that is being investigated but apparently mis management of the airline, tax evasion and safety issues.
The above appears to be typical of the management team from JQ/QF in Vietnam, being often quoted 'this is not how we do it at Jetstar/Qantas' or when dealing with the local authority the CAAV its 'this is not the way CASA would do it'.

At the end of the day it is not that hard to work or do business in Vietnam, you just have to understand the lay of the land and the fact it is a different place to Australia which i think some of these people never came to grips with.

The media in Australia has been slow to pick up this story and JQ/QF has been keeping it quite. Locally they have been running it for a long time especially since the termination late last year of two long serving foreign engineers (one Kiwi and one Ozzie) who were sacked because as they say for raising safety matters within the airline. An investigation was carried out by the CAAV and it was found that the claims of unsafe operations were true plus a lot more as well as finding the terminations were illegal. Prior to this the JQ/QF management (including the two currently held) were stating none of the claims made were true and that as they had the backing of the safest airline in the world (Qantas) everything was fine. After the investigation they were very quite but the results had a big impact on the airline with managers found to have obstructed the investigation, some suspended, terminated or removed from their positions, LAE licenses taken and the maintenance activities of the airline restricted until they got their act together including the revoking of the ability to carry out A checks on the aircraft which had to be flown overseas to Singapore.

The operation of the airline has become a real mess with at times only two aircraft out of the fleet of six flying, the others AOG awaiting repair or spare parts, this having created many angry passengers left stranded at airports around Vietnam. Though some improvements to the operation have occurred it appears that the Jetstar cutting costs has gone to far by the implanted JQ/QF managers, perhaps focusing on their bonuses at the end of their two year contract rather than the future of the airline.

In the local media questions are being asked about the high salaries of these foreign managers- $20K USD a month, plus luxury accommodation and bonus when over the last two years significant losses have been made at the airline.

When Qantas first invested into the airline hopes were high that big things would happen but this never got off the ground, granted the tough fight with Vietnam Airlines, economic crisis and high fuel prices have not helped, the management control of the airline by the JQ/QF implants has been seen to be very poor and to blame for the current state of the operation. Some are speculating that Qantas are not interested in making money here rather promote their brand for Jetstar Asia and Jetstar Australia.

At the end of the day as the old saying goes when there is smoke there is fire, these two have broken (or bent) the rules and will be held to account for this. To compare this with Rio Tinto Executive Stern Hu detained in China as some media outlets in Australia have implied is wrong, Vietnam is a lot smarter than this.

Since the introduction of economic reforms or Doi Moi in 1986 the country has held its arms open to foreign investment and is not about to put this at risk by playing political games. The government here understands the international implications on the country of holding two foreign nationals as part of its investigation and i sure there will be transparency on this issue.

DirectAnywhere

9th Jan 2010, 20:21

Hanoi calling Jetstar, ‘get lost’

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Plane Talking, by Ben Sandilands

Hanoi wants Jetstar out of Vietnam, and the ‘country arrest’ of its two Australian executives is nothing more than crude bargaining.

The ‘get rid of Jetstar’ agenda of the communist regime first flared into public view in October. Like the latest development, concerning fuel hedging losses, the object is to end the $US 50 million 27% Qantas stake in Vietnames domestic carrier Jetstar Pacific.

Back in November we broke the news, as far as Australia goes, that the carrier had been given until this coming October to remove its identity, and especially its logo, from the small clapped out fleet of 737-400s that operate most of its services.

This reflected an ideological split in the Communist regime concerning national identities and the spread of trans border franchises, like Coca-Cola, and its aviation imitation, the Jetstar low cost carrier franchise.

(November 11, 2009) News reports from Asia tell a story of tensions arising over national economic policy between the Communist Party in Vietnam and its Communist Government.

According to those reports, there is a conflict of ideology occurring between those who believe state enterprises should be seen to be uniquely Vietnamese rather than subsumed by trans border or multinational branding, and those who argue for leveraging global branding to grow the national economy.

That dispute apparently remained unresolved until December 24 when its two Australian senior executives were blocked from flying home for Christmas.

The commentary from Qantas CEO Alan Joyce that fuel hedging losses were commonplace during the financial crisis is true, but beside the point. It would be implausible to hold the view that Hanoi doesn’t know all about fuel hedging and its risks, and about trans border franchises.

The real agenda is to end the Jetstar involvement in Vietnames air transport, something presumably supported by the country’s national carrier Vietnamese Airlines.

The fuel losses followed two related crises, soaring jet fuel prices in 2008, following by a global financial crisis that deflated fuel, but also collapsed several hedge funds.

Cathay Pacific for example lost close to $300 million from such a combination, in Lehman Bros, which took the money, and then it is claimed failed to deliver the fuel as per contracts, after it filed the largest petition for bankruptcy in US history in September 2008.

It isn’t clear exactly what form the Jetstar Pacific calamity, which is said to lost over $US 30 million on its hedges, actually took. But it sounds just as Joyce describes it; a typical airline experience with fuel hedges in the previous year.

The more interesting question is whether there is anything to salvage for Qantas. If the ideological environment in Vietnam is this implacable , will it negotiate an exit price which recovers as much of its investment as possible? The only logical explanation for these events is that they are part of such a process.

The alliance announced with Asia’s largest and most successful low cost carrier franchise Air Asia this week has potential benefits that make Vietnam seem like a minor misadventure on the way to bigger things.

So it looks like Jet* Singapore hasn't worked out, nor has Jet* Pacific. I wonder what the majority government owned Malaysian airlines might have to say about the QF/Jet*/Air Asia tie up?

Higher wages are part of the cost that the QF group may have to "endure" to enjoy the advantages of transparent and open government regulation.

bonvol

9th Jan 2010, 22:08

In support of his executives AJ should hop on a plane and go and sort this out :E

airsupport

9th Jan 2010, 23:02

For anyone that hasn't worked there you must understand that living and working in Vietnam is different to most places, or it certainly was when I did it back in the 1990s.

Hopefully it has improved a LOT, but by the sound of this maybe not enough yet.

I was part of a group that operated the first ''western'' airliner there, and although we were operating FOR the Vietnam Government under the banner of Vietnam Airlines, they made operating VERY difficult.

Don't get me wrong, NOT the people they were GREAT, but the Government.

Everything from we were not allowed a phone line at first for fears we would spread anti Vietnam messages by fax or phone, had to send, and receive all messages via the Hotel office centre where they were checked (censored) before we sent them or received them.

Took us months to get all the manuals in to Vietnam, as they had to be checked.

They have a very different idea too on law and order, on the way to the airport one day the (local) driver of our Crew bus was stopped by Police for supposedly going through a red light, they just took him away and we had to sit there waiting for another driver.

We managed to survive and finish the contract somehow, and at that time there were other Aussie Companies (apart from ours) operating there including the ANZ bank and Telstra.

Also VERY touchy then about advertising especially anything American, I had to go in to the Airport one day when our Aircraft was idle, had these Government Censors with me, had to run all of our movies we had on board for showing in flight. They were NOT concerned about any violence, they LOVED that, but forbid us to use any that had shall we say adult themes and especially any that showed big advertisements, as lots of movies do, for say Coke or Maccas etc.

As I said, sure it has improved since then, GREAT people in general, but so different to anywhere else in the World I have worked.

bonvol

9th Jan 2010, 23:20

mohikan

9th Jan 2010, 23:22

Sandliands is wrong in this case - the line he is peddling here is from one of his back door QF sources who is part of the push to shape the ground to provide an excuse for the imminent failure of the JQP project.

Read lost in Saigons post carefully. He is right on the money according to my sources.

The JQ execs need not worry though, they are a protected species in the Qantas group and regardless of any incompetence or illegal behaviour they will not be held accountable.

No doubt the operational losses incurred have already been sheeted home to the appropriate Qantas cost centre.

airsupport

9th Jan 2010, 23:41

That concurs with what a friend of mine has told me. He was involved in setting up JV's for the establishment of a number of Western branded 5 star hotels.

Before he would let any western executive operate in the country they had to do a "cultural awareness course".

This ensured, as far as practicable that they didn't run foul of the local authorities by acting like....westerners.

We should have had one of those courses, but were just left to work it out.

I almost got arrested in Hanoi one night, would have been except for our Company having some very high up contacts, just for doing something any normal Westerner would do, that didn't know the local rules.

We had permanent rooms in Saigon at the Rex, at that time probably one of the better ones, but this day I had to overnight in Hanoi, so as I was NOT leaving Vietnam, as we often did, only still staying IN Vietnam I left most of my valuables including my passport in the safe in my Hotel room in Saigon.

Well what a drama, ALL Foreigners were supposed to have their passport with them even INSIDE Vietnam. :ooh:

What The

10th Jan 2010, 00:22

Originally posted by Lost in Saigon

hongkongfooey is right,

This pair decided they were smarter than the board and went against their wishes and decided they knew all about fuel hedging. The end result was a loss of an significant amount of money not to be sneezed at especially when it is mainly government money as the airline is still 70% owned by them. Of concern for the investigators is the lack of traceability of where this money has gone, you don't mess with government money in this country. It is not just the fuel hedging that is being investigated but apparently mis-management of the airline, tax evasion and safety issues.

The above appears to be typical of the management team from JQ/QF in Vietnam, being often quoted 'this is not how we do it at Jetstar/Qantas' or when dealing with the local authority the CAAV its 'this is not the way CASA would do it'. At the end of the day it is not that hard to work or do business in Vietnam, you just have to understand the lay of the land and the fact it is a different place to Australia which i think some of these people never came to grips with.

The media in Australia has been slow to pick up this story and JQ/QF has been keeping it quiet. Locally they have been running it for a long time especially since the termination late last year of two long serving foreign engineers (one Kiwi and one Ozzie) who were sacked because as they say for raising safety matters within the airline. An investigation was carried out by the CAAV and it was found that the claims of unsafe operations were true plus a lot more as well as finding the terminations were illegal.

Prior to this the JQ/QF management (including the two currently held) were stating none of the claims made were true and that as they had the backing of the safest airline in the world (Qantas) everything was fine. After the investigation they were very quiet but the results had a big impact on the airline with managers found to have obstructed the investigation, some suspended, terminated or removed from their positions, LAE licenses taken and the maintenance activities of the airline restricted until they got their act together including the revoking of the ability to carry out A checks on the aircraft which had to be flown overseas to Singapore.

The operation of the airline has become a real mess with at times only two aircraft out of the fleet of six flying, the others AOG awaiting repair or spare parts, this having created many angry passengers left stranded at airports around Vietnam. Though some improvements to the operation have occurred it appears that the Jetstar cutting costs has gone to far by the implanted JQ/QF managers, perhaps focusing on their bonuses at the end of their two year contract rather than the future of the airline.

In the local media questions are being asked about the high salaries of these foreign managers- $20K USD a month, plus luxury accommodation and bonus when over the last two years significant losses have been made at the airline.

When Qantas first invested into the airline hopes were high that big things would happen but this never got off the ground, granted the tough fight with Vietnam Airlines, economic crisis and high fuel prices have not helped, the management control of the airline by the JQ/QF implants has been seen to be very poor and to blame for the current state of the operation. Some are speculating that Qantas are not interested in making money here rather promote their brand for Jetstar Asia and Jetstar Australia.

At the end of the day as the old saying goes when there is smoke there is fire, these two have broken (or bent) the rules and will be held to account for this. To compare this with Rio Tinto Executive Stern Hu detained in China as some media outlets in Australia have implied is wrong, Vietnam is a lot smarter than this.

Since the introduction of economic reforms or Doi Moi in 1986 the country has held its arms open to foreign investment and is not about to put this at risk by playing political games. The government here understands the international implications on the country of holding two foreign nationals as part of its investigation and I am sure there will be transparency on this issue.

May be easier to read.

airsupport

10th Jan 2010, 00:53

What I find ironic about this, is that it is all about fuel. :rolleyes:

When we were there, Qantas used to transit Saigon once a week or so (can't remember exactly how often) and they NEVER uplifted fuel there as they didn't trust the quality of it. :eek:

We used it though (had to) in similar B767, as did TEA and Regionair later on.

caneworm

10th Jan 2010, 01:55

Quote:
The JQ execs need not worry though, they are a protected species in the Qantas group and regardless of any incompetence or illegal behaviour they will not be held accountable.

We all (should) enjoy the company's protection so long as we have done nothing wrong. But if these two have acted against the advice/direction of the board then surley all bets must be off.

Sadly Moh, I think you're right.
Will they be sacked?....doubt it.
Will they get to keep their bonuses?....probably.
Will their stellar-like airline careers continue to flourish?.......hmm, that could be an entirely different story.

LostInSaigon

10th Jan 2010, 06:04

Having lived and worked in Vietnam going on a half dozen years now there has been some dramatic changes in my short time here, talking with some 'old timers' here some whom have been since the opening up of the country i can relate to some of the previous posts but the current Vietnam is a lot different. Many international companies are coming to do business as well as individuals western as well as return Vietnamese. Not many people get themselves in trouble, most are very successful here.

Ben Sandilands seems to have his facts wrong in saying that Hanoi wants Jetstar out of Vietnam, JQ/QF are doing a great job making a mess of the situation and getting themselves kicked out. What could have been a great investment has turned very sour. I think all they have to blame for this is themselves.

The Vietnamese government opened up the door for Qantas with their investment into Pacific Airlines, though the JQ/QF managers were implanted into the management structure with a Vietnamese manager above them this was more of a figurehead with the Australians having control of the operation. A very big concession by the government when Qantas only had an 18% stake in the airline (now 27%), a lot was expected from such a large well known carrier to reform what was a very poorly managed airline.

Now the airline is in such poor shape and some senior Australian managers have been caught out doing the wrong thing the government here is starting to realize they have made a mistake in trusting Qantas with their operation and down south Qantas is realizing that the management team they sent up here may not have being doing such a great job. The vocal support given by Alan Joyce to these people in the media i believe is not quite the same as what is being said in private.

airsupport

10th Jan 2010, 07:47

LostInSaigon

10th Jan 2010, 09:20

airsupport

10th Jan 2010, 18:47

No Macca's yet airsupport but plenty of KFC, Pizza Hut etc. Believe Macca's is on the way this year.
Still cheap to live here by western standards though slowly getting more expensive.

Thanks for that. :ok:

We would have killed for KFC and Pizza Hut etc when we were there. :{

Still have very fond memories of Vietnam, particularly the tunnels at Cu Chi, guess you have been there.

Is the American Market still operating in Saigon?

denabol

10th Jan 2010, 19:26

This story in the Sydney Morning Herald has me puzzled. Maybe its also wrong.

Qantas digs in for battle in Vietnam (http://www.smh.com.au/business/qantas-digs-in-for-battle-in-vietnam-20100110-m0s0.html)

If Vietnam wants Jetstar to stay why would they tell it to jack its name, and then drag it into the pits for a roadworthy like the highway coppers do around here when they just don't like you? Looks like any excuse to do Jetstar over will do, not that this doesn't seem like a bad thing to me having done my first and last flight with them a few years ago.

According to the story, Qantas was allowed to increase its interest from 18 to 27% so why was everything rosy then and tits up later? Maybe they don't want them after all. Wonder if Air Asia would put up its hand?

727ace

10th Jan 2010, 22:29

Well it looks like time has caught up with DM --bad karma always gets its person---:D you shaft others then you be shafted in time

Sunfish

10th Jan 2010, 23:38

Tailwheel, I'll give you the long version..

If you wish to expand your business into another country, you require complete and absolute control of Two or preferably all Three of the Three ingredients for any successful business.

Those ingredients are

1. People.

2. Capital.

3. Technology and intellectual property.

If you do not have control of Two out of those Three, then you will inevitably by pushed out at some stage.

The companies you mentioned; Shell, KPMG, etc. understand that, the typical Australian company that goes in via a "joint venture" with a local company does not.

This normally means that as soon as you have transferred your technology and intellectual property, trained the locals how to do what you need done and invested heavily in a new plant, the process of pushing you out begins.

By my fathers count, there have been Five times since 1935 when the "Asian Tiger" was thought to be going to make westerners a very great deal of money - based on the "Gee there are Two billion Chinese and if I can make even Ten percent buy my new (toothbrush/scissors/TV) I'll be a billionaire" business strategy. It doesn't work unless the "Two out of Three" requirement is met.

I had a personal friend who bankrupted himself and his private company via an ill advised "joint venture". He eventually committed suicide. I know many others who have had their fingers very badly burned as well.

Having said all that, our family company traded in Asia from 1960 to 2000 very profitably, but we used agents and knew what we were doing.

One has to ask exactly what unique product Jetstar Asia is providing that Asia couldn't provide for themselves cheaper and better?

Teal

11th Jan 2010, 00:14

This normally means that as soon as you have transferred your technology and intellectual property, trained the locals how to do what you need done and invested heavily in a new plant, the process of pushing you out begins.

An Asian proverb comes to mind -

Meeting is merely the beginning of separation

flyingfox

11th Jan 2010, 03:12

At least one of these 'executives' has a track record of failure and dubious values. Promoted for all the wrong reasons from day one, it was bound to end badly. The previous QF top brass must have had another agenda in mind when placing said person in Vietnam.

Juice Rider

11th Jan 2010, 04:14

LOL. was wondering how long it would be before this was bought up. Recon said executive would be used to being at the center of losses.

cunninglinguist

11th Jan 2010, 11:06

727ace and Fying Fox, I have only one thing to say to you

SPOT :mad:ING ON !! :ok:

LostInSaigon

11th Jan 2010, 15:55

Just reading the media reports back in Australia and i am surprised how the story has been twisted around (is it the Qantas spin doctors at work?).
How has it become that these two executives have become caught in the middle of a fight between different factions of the Vietnamese government, where is the evidence of this?
The facts are they carried out illegal fuel hedging against the instructions of the board as well as mis managed the airline which has cost the operation tens of millions of dollars.
If a couple of foreign nationals did this in Australia do the think the Australian government would let them leave before an investigation was carried out?
I think the same action would be taken by most other countries as what the Vietnamese have done.

RedTBar

11th Jan 2010, 21:38

Like most people I don't know the full story nor do I know the people involved.
I agree with Owen Stanley that if you do something wrong then you have to expect to be caught up in the legal/political situation in whatever country you have been involved in.
You only have to look at the recent mess with the Garuda Capt to understand that logic has little to do with the justice system of some countries.
Thinking back to a recent event of the cargo price fixing debacle then if hypothetically the execs in Vietnam did anything wrong on instructions from Sydney what would happen?

Toruk Macto

12th Jan 2010, 04:48

Would these managers really have continued to hedge when the board instructed them not to . What is the chances they were under orders from head office in SYD to hedge and now its gone south they will cut them lose.

emergencybus

12th Jan 2010, 11:27

To quote Loserinsaigon,
"The facts are they carried out illegal fuel hedging against the instructions of the board as well as mis managed the airline which has cost the operation tens of millions of dollars."
And where might i ask did you establish that these were the facts?
You sound like someone who will spend the remainder of his career making coffee after being booted from your last 3 jobs in aviation!

Mstr Caution

13th Jan 2010, 05:10

Jetstar Pacific 'violated regulations' (http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=999197)

CAAV deputy director Lai Xuan Thanh said Jetstar Pacific had made numerous mistakes which put flights at risk. According to Vietnam News Agency, he cited faults related to personnel appointments, hangars, equipment, and the licences and certificates of maintenance technicians.

The risks couldn't have been that bad, their still flying. But then again the majority owner is the Vietnamese government.

airsupport

13th Jan 2010, 05:55

CAAV deputy director Lai Xuan Thanh said Jetstar Pacific had made numerous mistakes which put flights at risk. According to Vietnam News Agency, he cited faults related to personnel appointments, hangars, equipment, and the licences and certificates of maintenance technicians.

Things HAVE certainly changed then in Vietnam to when we were there, they never worried about any of that back then, and certainly NOT Crew hour limits either. :rolleyes:

my oleo is extended

13th Jan 2010, 12:22

flyingfox,

At least one of these 'executives' has a track record of failure and dubious values. Promoted for all the wrong reasons from day one, it was bound to end badly.The previous QF top brass must have had another agenda in mind when placing said person in Vietnam.

I like your style.The 'said' person was certainly sent over there due to the exact reasons you quoted.That is a true fact.The 'said' Manager, like so many other ambitious and hungry footstools from the past was willing to take those risks to prove their worthiness to join the upper echelon's of the Rat's gravy train, but alas, has failed 'the test'. Career over. Next.

Toruct Makto,

Would these managers really have continued to hedge when the board instructed them not to.What is the chances they were under orders from head office in SYD to hedge and now its gone south they will cut them lose.

You also are spot on. Smart Senior Managers always put in a 'line of defence' between themselves and the 'dirty deal'. In this case, it was 'said' Manager who was that line of defence. If and when the deal goes south, and it did, their is a fall guy (or girl) to wear the blame.The CEO of 'said' airline who put these managers over there in the first place will be grinning knowing that his or her tenure atop of the Rat's tree is safe still because a 'lamb has been sacrificed'. Just look back at a particularly interesting cargo scandal last year and you will see where another 'line of defence' was sacrificied in the same manner.
The CEO in that case now lives a life of luxury upon the proceeds and spoils gained by keeping ones hands cleans while others are paid rather well to wear the risks of undertaking 'suspect practises' and be willing to be the 'fall guy'.It is certainly not a new method of Management, ask anyone who has worked in the 'higher circles'.

Owen Stanley,

I doubt any Australian Government would have the balls (A Conga Line of Suckholes) to enforce any sort of action like this. Maybe if the threat of some serious 'big house' time was there we wouldn't see so many morally bereft business people in this country.

You know your politicians well indeed.I couldnt agree more with yourself and M.Latham, they are truly A Conga Line Of Suckholes. Amazing how Politicians and CEO's operate under the same rule set and always have an underling who will take the bullet for them. How touching !

727ace,

Well it looks like time has caught up with DM --bad karma always gets its person---:D you shaft others then you be shafted in time

Oh my, aren't you naughty !! I agree with you, and have been personally waiting a LONG time to see justice served on 'said' Manager over in Nam. As they say -'you live by the sword, you die by the sword'. Karma. As for feeling sorry for 'said' individual ? Reap it.......

youcangetholdofjules

13th Jan 2010, 16:44

Safety at Jetstar Pacific slammed - Sydney Morning Herald
TOM ALLARD AND MATT O'SULLIVAN

January 14, 2010
SAFETY practices at Jetstar Pacific Airlines, the Vietnamese carrier part-owned by Qantas, have been found to be ''very poor and ineffective'' and defects hidden from supervisors, prompting the country's aviation regulator to demand senior management be removed.
The damning report by the Civil Aviation Authority of Vietnam, obtained by the Herald, also found Jetstar Pacific illegally sacked an Australian engineer - Bernard McCune - who tried to bring the problems to the attention of the airline's senior Australian managers.
Among the dangerous practices identified by the authority was the removal of a defective anti-icing pipe that, rather than being replaced, was welded and placed back in the aircraft by an unauthorised contractor.
''Technical staff did not report [this] occurrence on purpose,'' the report found, following an audit conducted in October.
Moreover, ''many mistakes and violations were covered up deliberately by JPA [Jetstar Pacific Airlines] from the supervision''.
The authority added: ''Technical staffs record incorrectly the size of defects and twisting the fact of defect level.''
Amid deep cost-cutting at the airline, it concluded that there were not enough maintenance personnel and that the maintenance facilities were substandard.
The airline regulator laid the blame for the shortcomings squarely on the company's senior management. The ''quality assurance system operated very poorly and ineffectively, therefore [there have] been many violations occurred within the maintenance process. Managerial staff was actual causes and fully responsible for this system error.''
Jetstar Pacific was ordered to remove the airline's general director, Luong Hoai Nam, a Bulgarian technical quality manager, Atanas Stankov, and the Australian maintenance manager, David Andrew, from their posts.
Mr Nam is under arrest after resigning in November, while a Qantas spokesman, David Epstein, said yesterday that Mr Stankov was shifted from his position on December 25 and would formally leave the company next month. He said Mr Andrew was demoted on the same day for not properly reporting work practices, but only for three months.
The fate of Mr McCune and another engineer - Digger King, a New Zealander - who blew the whistle on the maintenance woes and lost their jobs remains unclear. Qantas has not offered to re-employ them or issued any kind of apology.
Mr McCune was sacked illegally, the report found. It added there was no evidence of wrongdoing to justify the terminations of either Mr McCune or Mr King.
Jetstar Pacific noted it was still able to fly its aircraft, saying the report ''focused on administrative and employment matters''.
''Jetstar Pacific remains confident of its engineering and safety record, and continues to work closely with the CAAV,'' it said.

airsupport

13th Jan 2010, 18:17

Just curious, are their Aircraft registered in Australia, Vietnam or elsewhere?

RedTBar

13th Jan 2010, 19:33

Why do I get the feeling that there is more to this than meets the eye?

emergencybus

14th Jan 2010, 09:14

Maybe one of the clever media people trawling for a story in HCMC could find out a bit more of the background of the ex Jetstar pacific s...stirer, a nightmare for any employer or their own colleagues, especially when they find a sympathetic ear/s with another agenda!

Pegasus747

14th Jan 2010, 21:26

Whistleblowers told: 'You will bring us down'
TOM ALLARD AND MATT O'SULLIVAN
January 15, 2010

''Hated'' … Bernard McCune, left, and Digger King, who upset his colleagues when he raised concerns about Jetstar Pacific.
The men who raised concerns about Jetstar Pacific feel vindicated by an inquiry into the airline, write Tom Allard and Matt O'Sullivan.

DIGGER KING knew his colleagues were unhappy when he joined his fellow Jetstar Pacific engineer Bernard McCune in taking their concerns about safety at the carrier to Vietnam's aviation regulator.

But he did not expect the loud knock on his front door late one night in November.

''This guy came around to my place on a motorcycle and rammed it into my door. He then started to kick it down.''

The man, says Mr King, was David Andrew, his former housemate and the maintenance manager at Jetstar Pacific, in which Qantas has a 27 per cent shareholding.

A police report of the incident formed part of a Civil Aviation Authority of Vietnam (CAAV) investigation into Jetstar Pacific, which ordered Mr Andrew be removed from his post, an edict the airline adhered to.

''There was a lot of hatred there for me,'' said Mr King, a 65-year-old veteran of the airline industry. ''People were telling me, 'You are going to bring us down. This place will go out of business.' I told them if they did something when we first complained about it, it never would have come to this.''

Mr King and Mr McCune spoke yesterday of blowing the whistle on what the CAAV found in a report released this week to be a ''very poor and ineffective'' culture of safety maintenance at Jetstar Pacific.

Mr McCune, who was found by the Vietnamese authorities to have been illegally sacked after he refused to sign a resignation letter drafted for him, said he first raised the safety issues in early 2008.

''The reason we went to the CAAV is because senior managers weren't responding to the safety concerns. There was an intense investigation and we have been found to be correct.''

As well as finding that the airline had committed a number of safety violations, the CAAV report also accused Jetstar of covering up defects.

On Wednesday night, a day after the report's release, both men said they felt vindicated. All they had wanted, said Mr McCune, was to ''fix the safety problems and clear our names''.

Mr McCune has become a minor media fixture in the country. Photos he obtained of a damaged plane laden with passengers ready to depart were splashed across the country's print and online media last year.

Jetstar accused Mr King of leaking the photos. He was suspended two days later on the grounds of making repeated mistakes, a rationale the CAAV found to be unsubstantiated.

Local maintenance staff at Jetstar petitioned for Mr McCune's reinstatement, saying ''he was the foreigner they hated most'' when he started at the airline in 2006 but they soon came to regard him as a ''good teacher and good friend''.

While the CAAV backed the whistleblowers, Bruce Buchanan, the chief executive of Jetstar, said yesterday there would be no apology nor reinstatement for the men.

Mr Buchanan said the CAAV report had been blown out of proportion and he insisted he would have grounded the airline if he had had concerns about its safety. ''This airline is performing well and from a safety perspective it is making giant strides … The safety performance has improved 100-fold since we got in it,'' he said.

Mr McCune denied Mr Buchanan's claims.

He said he had never applied for a promotion at Jetstar Pacific and that both men had presented written and verbal reports on the safety flaws at the airline, including a lengthy email - viewed by the Herald - to a senior Qantas manager based in Australia.

Gas Bags

14th Jan 2010, 23:44

Emergencybus could be on to something......If the media actually did do the background check on the serial troublemaker and uncovered the employment history, the reports may be different.

Hey loserinsaigon......How many jobs have you been terminated from?

airsupport

15th Jan 2010, 00:38

I did ask before, PLEASE excuse me asking again but maybe my question was missed in all the sh1t stirring and fighting. :rolleyes:

Are Jetstar Pacific's aircraft registered in Vietnam, thus solely under the control of the Vietnamese Authorities? OR registered in Australia, or elsewhere?

NO sinister reason for wanting to know, just wondered with all these posts about the quality of the operations especially Engineers and Engineering where they are registered. :confused:

When we operated there the aircraft was Aussie registered, thus under the control of CASA primarily.

dodgybrothers

15th Jan 2010, 00:53

geez gas bags one post and you're accusing people of a conspiracy. Why is it that whistleblowers are all serious troublemakers? Case in point, an engineer was sacked by Alaskan prior to to a MD82 crash because he was a troublemaker for raising serious safety concerns. He he been listened to many peoples lives would not have been lost because of the lack of maintenance to a jackscrew.

I think what needs to be questioned is the ethics of the people being held in Vietnam. Seems strange that both these both these people come from an accountancy background. Karma might be biting back.

JuicyNews

15th Jan 2010, 01:15

To answer airsupport, The aircraft are all VN registered. That means they are registered in Vietnam, and I would guess come under the Vietnamese DCA. You can log on to www.airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net) and check photos of the fleet there to confirm.

bonvol

15th Jan 2010, 01:36

Are Jetstar Pacific's aircraft registered in Vietnam

Pretty sure I have seen VN on the tails.

airsupport

15th Jan 2010, 01:38

Okay thanks, if that is true then they are at the mercy of the Vietnamese Authorities. :eek:

Gas Bags

15th Jan 2010, 02:13

Apologies dodgybrother from a probationary 1 time poster.

I merely meant that the badge of "Whistle Blower" is oft hidden behind by the unscrupulous troublemaker. Case in point the offender in Vietnam. The history of the case in point proves beyond doubt that there is one single common denominator, that has history in more than 1 country!

Again I apologise and no reference to conspiricy was intended or meant.

The reference is more akin to a shark sucker fish. In this case the CAAV being the shark and the serial troublemaker ("Whistleblower") being the sucker fish.

More an asosciation of conveniance than anything else.

Gas Bags

15th Jan 2010, 02:26

Bonvol....You are 100% correct.

See link below.

Photos: Boeing 737-4H6 Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Jetstar-Pacific-Airlines/Boeing-737-4H6/1629422/&sid=2c5ed95d5274729548a40c691b61793c)

:ok:

Artificial Horizon

15th Jan 2010, 07:42

What The

15th Jan 2010, 11:25

Lets just remember that Jetstar Australia actually has no financial interest in Jetstar Asia. It was actually Qantas that purchased the share in this airline and then tried to brand it as 'Jetstar' to expand its little Jetstar experiment into Asia. The whole lot was then 'dumped' on Jetstar to sort out. It has proved harder than expected to do just that.

Just remember that Jetstar Australia actually has no financial interest in anything! All of the investment is provided and paid for by the Qantas workers who are the anti christ according to Qantas management.

Crocodile tears FFS!

framer

15th Jan 2010, 12:04

Lets just remember that Jetstar Australia actually has no financial interest in Jetstar Asia.
Which is more important.....which bank account the capital came out of or who is making the day to day, year on year operational and financial decisions?
I look forward to your reply.
PS it's not Jstar asia, its Jstar Pacific.

Spendid Cruiser

15th Jan 2010, 12:34

JPA's financial decisions are not made by Qantas. They are made by the board made up of SCIC and JPA executives.

However, Qantas is the bank, and as it is the bank it dictates the terms, but not the method.

Despite appearances, I think JPA has turned the corner. From where I sit, DM et al did a pretty good job converting a virtual basket case into viable organisation set to make a good dime. Lots of work still to do and obviously mistakes along the way, a learning curve for all concerned.

Sunfish

15th Jan 2010, 17:48

Oleo is extended, I like your style and you are spot on I'm sure!

Watch now as everyone enters "CYA' mode. My guess is that not one single Australian lower echelon manager in this mess will survive.

I have consistently said on these forums that Qantas should not be investing outside Australia, specifically in Asian airlines, for the simple reason that there is nothing that Qantas can bring to Asia that Asia cannot provide cheaper and better itself.

Now the question.

Do I have to tell any of you how this whole sorry saga ends?????

Yet more from todays "The Age" below.

Airline bosses kept in limbo
TOM ALLARD, HO CHI MINH CITY AND MATT O'SULLIVAN
January 16, 2010

DANIELA Marsilli was about to board a plane home to Australia with her family when a Vietnamese official pulled her aside and told her she was forbidden to leave the country.

''It was surreal, not believable,'' Ms Marsilli says of the travel ban slapped on her and another Jetstar Pacific airline executive just before Christmas.

Ms Marsilli and Tristan Freeman remain in limbo in Vietnam while security agencies investigate the airline's financial dealings, but they insisted yesterday they had nothing to hide.

Luong Hoai Nam, their former boss at Jetstar Pacific, which is part owned by Qantas, was imprisoned this week as part of the investigation, but the Australians are confident they will not meet the same fate.

''I have nothing to hide,'' Ms Marsilli said.

Jetstar Pacific, critical to Qantas' strategy of developing a no-frills airline network in one of the few fast-growing aviation markets in the world, has been buffeted by problems in Vietnam.

As well the investigation of the two Australians and Mr Nam's arrest, its safety record is under siege from whistleblowers, Vietnam's aviation regulator and unions in Australia.

It was also found to have illegally sacked an engineer, whistleblower Bernard McCune. Meanwhile, the powerful Transport Ministry is pushing to have the airline change its logo, saying that its orange star is a corruption of the star on the Vietnamese flag.

Jetstar chief executive Bruce Buchanan, who is on the board of Jetstar Pacific, is confident the airline can survive the crisis and defends the performance of the airline and its managers.

Others, however, are more critical, saying its Australian managers have a poor understanding of Vietnamese affairs.

''Jetstar's inherent weakness is that they haven't got a clue about doing business in Asia,'' a former Qantas executive said.

A former Jetstar Pacific employee said: ''People who think they can go into countries like Vietnam and just change the rules overnight … well, it ain't going to work.''

Mr Buchanan concedes that the company's entry into Vietnam has not been easy. ''It's been a difficult path in terms of the first privatisation of any communist-run business in Vietnam,'' he says.

Part of any commercial airline's operation is to lock in fuel costs by hedging against further price rises, and it was these activities that got Ms Marsilli, the airline's chief operating officer, and Mr Freeman, its chief financial officer, into trouble.

Jetstar Pacific locked in fuel costs when prices had soared to crippling high levels in 2008 amid fears they would go even higher. But the global financial crisis meant prices plummeted to a third of their previous levels, leaving the airline with losses of $US31 million.

Other airlines did the same thing and incurred heavy losses but, for Vietnam's Government, the loss seemed inexplicable.

Mr Buchanan insists the hedging decision was endorsed by the Jetstar Pacific board but Vietnamese media reports say the hedging went well beyond the scope of any mandate.

''The Vietnamese would see a $US31 million loss as someone stealing the money from them,'' the former Jetstar Pacific employee said.

Carlyle Thayer from the University of NSW, one of the world's top experts on Vietnam's political and economic transformation, said the investigation was akin to ''criminalising poor business decisions''.

''It's Jetstar [Pacific's] success that has pissed off other people,'' he said.

But insiders say there are divisions between local and expatriate managers, not least over the large salaries and perks given to the foreigners.

Part of the probe that has ensnared Ms Marsilli and Mr Freeman relates to allegations of over-payments to executives.

Ms Marsilli denied any lack of harmony in the workforce or significant safety problems in emailed responses to questions by The Age vetted by Qantas.

Airline bosses kept in limbo (http://www.theage.com.au/business/airline-bosses-kept-in-limbo-20100115-mck1.html)

frigatebird

15th Jan 2010, 21:05

mohikan

15th Jan 2010, 21:51

Isn't it interesting how many low time / first time posters on this thread are out and about trying to discredit the whistleblowers and pump up the managers accused of financial impropriety. Some of the words being used are very similar to the public statements by Buchanan and Joyce. Smearing the messenger and posting positive spin is classic QF PR tactics and blatenly obvious in this environment.

This from the QF website:

"As I advised on Friday, our colleagues, Jetstar Pacific Chief Operating Officer Daniela Marsilli and Chief Financial Officer Tristan Freeman, have been denied departure from Vietnam, although they are at work and remain free to move around the country.
Daniela and Tristan have my absolute confidence, and the full support of the leadership group. They are highly professional and ethical aviation executives.
I have been in close touch with Daniela and Tristan, both of whom I know well, and they are coping admirably with what is an immensely stressful situation for them and for their families.
While I have every confidence that this situation will be resolved successfully, we should prepare ourselves for the prospect that this may take some time.
In the interim Daniela and Tristan will need - and get - all possible support:
We have put in place an internal executive team dedicated to resolving this issue
I am staying in close personal touch with Daniela and Tristan, as are members of the leadership team
We are doing all we can to ensure the well being of their immediate families
We are working closely with the Australian Government and others to expedite their freedom to travel.
This is a very sensitive situation and, as we proceed, that means I will not always be able to share with you full details of the steps we are taking or the status of the situation.
But I want to assure you of this: nothing is more important to us than the safety, security and good reputation of our colleagues. Our people come first. We will stand by Daniela, Tristan and their families for as long as it takes.
Even if you don’t know them personally, I am sure everyone would agree it is important they have the backing of the full Qantas Group community.
Alan Joyce"

Interesting how almost straight away Joyce comes out with a statement like this when it involves two of his managers who yet still maybe found to have acted improperly according to the laws of the land that they are working in, yet when it comes to the actions of the operational staff in extreme circumstances there is not a word of thanks or praise for the actions of the crews involved in either the Learmonth or Manila emergencies.

Contrast that with Willie Walsh who stood very publicly with the crew of the BA 777 crash at LHR.

If you are a manager in Qantas (particularly in JQ) you can do no wrong and are worth the obscene salaries and perks you are paid. It's all about how much cash you can rip out of the business. On 20K USD per month both these individuals would have been up there with the highest paid Airline execs in SEA. All this for an airline that has four aircraft.

As someone ardroitly put it earlier on this thread, Qantas staff are viewed by management as the anti-christ.

airsupport

15th Jan 2010, 21:55

A refreshing change to see some 'Developing Country' government holding 'Airline Executives' responsible for failed financial management or extreme private decisionmaking without due consultation. A lot think they are 'God' and above that sort of accountability, or can make it go away with a little 'Grease'.

Mind you the Vietnamese Authorities can be extremely hard to get on with, certainly were when we were there. :rolleyes:

Our Company had a good relationship with them in general, but they were absolutely furious with them one time, they insisted on seeing the Certificate of Registration (Australian) for our aircraft. Our Company offered to send any number of copies of it but that was no good. Then they offered to send them certified copies of it certified by CASA, and when that was rejected certified copies of it certified by a Judge, still no good. Reluctantly they ended up having to send the original up to Hanoi hand held all the way by a Courier. They had never had to do that before or since with any other Country. :ugh: