View Full Version : Private vs AOC
Hello fellow Aviators,
As many of us exec pilots are faced with private operation from time to time, I would like to ask you about your thoughts and advices about private and AOC operations.
What are advantages of private ops vs commercial charter flights?
subpart Q duty times? how long will this exemption last?
VAT exemption of Fuel for AOC flights.
No factored landing distance for private ops.
Owner flihts only for private ops.
Do you have any advice for me, where I can find "regs" or exemptions for private flights. What about take off calculations? Do we have to calculate single engine performance on ME aircraft, or is it sufficient to calculate double eng climb out at restricted airfields (like samedan e.g.)
open discussion please.
happy flying 2010
welle
:ok:
what next
6th Jan 2010, 17:10
Hello!
I have been doing both kinds of flying during the last 20 years. Still do. You have summed up all the relevant points already. There is no "right" or "wrong" or "good" or "bad" in any of them. You must weigh them according to your needs (or those of the owner of your aircraft) and come to a conclusion that best suits your personal criteria.
Regarding the duty times, at least in my part of the world, there has never been a difference between the two. Wether or not you as a pilot have to respect duty times does not depend on the type of operation, but on you being paid for your flying. Whatever kind of flying it is. You get paid: you respect duty time regulations; you fly recreationally: you do as you please. I never fly recreationally, so I respect the duty times. Always. The insurance always finds out, if something goes wrong.
Personally, I prefer AOC flying. The safety factors have not been invented without reason. I want to live long enough to meet my grandchildren one day. Also, I do not like to work 24-hour+ shifts. And even less so for the kind of money we get paid (although I can't complain). Therefore, being able to tell a customer or an owner "Sorry, we have to be out of here by 10 PM, otherwise we are forced to stay overnight" or "Sorry, but you can't bring three more guests because our climb performace will not be sufficient" makes life a lot easier for a (corporate) pilot.
Greetings, Max
Welle
Basically private ops you can do what you want when you want and how you want.
You can undercut the AOC guys by a fortune under the pretence of private ops.
You can go to other airfields where the AOC guys cannot hence reaching the parts that others cannot reach.
Always a good selling point! that 900 metre strip no probs unlike the AOC guy wimps :)
Take offs no probs just wind up to max N1 and away you go. Maybe a few palpatations as the hedge almost coincides with VR but then you can always waggle the gold bars at your appreciative passengers as you clear the said hedge :) while trying to look like James Bond in a set of Ray Bans.
Use little Jimmy Whos never been in an aircraft in his life as a co. White shirt, Dark trousers and he will fit the image No probs and he will look good to the pax especially if you give him the emergency check list to look at in a knowing way.
With a bit of luck he might actually pay you for the privalage and you can charge him out at £250 a day. (well we all need beer money :)
Send little Jimmy back every now and again to check on the PAX just tell him not to discuss anything to do with aviation and to waggle bits of the aircraft as if he knows something about it.
As for duty times no probs, fly around the clock and get naps in the cruise just tell Little Jimmy to wake you if anything needs doing like descending to destination or smoke in the cockpit. George will look after the rest.
Is this the sort of info you want? (btw only a jokey response do we really want to start this debate yet again)
Pace :D
hello again:
@max: thanks for your thoughts: acc duty time..., your way is actually as we do know, just having in mind the extra bit of flexibility we can share with the owner.
I heard a rumor that the subpart Q limitations will be imposed on private ops as well in some time..., so that problem should be solved in some time by itself (maybe not for GV and GLEX long range non-enlarged crew ops..)
@pace: I hope your post is just a little bit sarcastic and I do not yet feel offended.
I am in aviation now for more than twelve years (maybe not long enough...) but always on the commercial side of the moon, so private ops is a new theme to me. I have not volunteered in, I just have to take it like it is ( not to undercut the collegues on the other side of the operations)
Nevertheless I feel the need to know about more legal and other aspects.
safe flying
welle
what next
6th Jan 2010, 20:38
Hello!
I have not volunteered in, I just have to take it like it is ...
But hopefully, "your" owner also listens to you. If there might be difficulties with the single engine climbout, let him know. A person who invests multi-million Euros (or whatever currency) in an aeroplane certainly dosn't want to die because of a failing engine.
And be very very careful with illegal commercial flying. Sometimes you simply do not know who pays for a corporate flight. Is it the owner/company or do they charge the passengers? If in doubt, ask! Because you as pilot will always be the one who is held responsible. The charges will initially be brought against you, not against the owner (who can afford a better lawyer than you anyway).
I personally know a guy here in Germany who was fined 50.000 Euros for being PIC on two illegal charter flights (the owner had been approached by a freight broker and accepted several small loads of cargo). His license was pulled too, but later he got it back through court. His career is over nevertheless.
Greetings, Max
learjet50
6th Jan 2010, 20:46
Wellie
we could go on to the end of the Century with this debate
An A O C operation is written down in Black and white so no debate
Private Operation
I Have known many pilot s who do as the owner requests but I also know some who have ended up in the Heaven Holding pattern because there boss cannot understand the words No/Not Possible/Duty hours will be exceeded/Airfield to short.
Its a matter of saying to the boss from the outset THESE ARE THE RULES regretfully so many pilots dont because they are afraid of the boss saying FxxK off I will get someone that will. Well Quite frankly let him and ask him to be put on the Mailing list for His Funeral
Any respectable Business Man will listen to what you have to say
Its Swings and roundabouts with Private operations but NOTHING should effect saftey We all have Familes we would like to see again
I would sooner shovel SxxT that be an Arxx licker tosome Wanxer that thinks he knows everthing about Aviation
Kind Regards
MAXTHRUSTV1
7th Jan 2010, 00:02
I have a friend that has been looking to set up a small charter operation, he has all costings in place except the fee's for an AOC? I know it is specific to each individual business but can anyone advise on a general cost i.e is it likely to be in the £100000 range or is it charged per flight hour?
He is going to be starting with a single engine 8 seater if this has any effect on cost?
Tried the CAA and all information on the website doesnt lead to an answer or he hasnt found it yet!
Thanks guys
MAX
And be very very careful with illegal commercial flying. Sometimes you simply do not know who pays for a corporate flight. Is it the owner/company or do they charge the passengers? If in doubt, ask! Because you as pilot will always be the one who is held responsible. The charges will initially be brought against you, not against the owner (who can afford a better lawyer than you anyway).
I take issue with this.
As captain you cannot be held responsible for knowing what agreements are written or made between the owner and people he carries. If you knowingly carry an illegal charter yes, but if in good faith you believe you are carrying a legal charter you cannot be held responsible.
It is not the duty of the Captain to wade through every legal agreement or to understand such agreements or to be present when such agreements are made and this is I can assure you in law is fact.
Pace
NuName
7th Jan 2010, 04:28
Lets not forget the many businessmen or company's that have an aircraft to use for the benifit of the exploitation of their business who have no interest in chartering, legaly or otherwise, and have chosen to operate on a user friendly registration. A perfectly legitimate thing to do, saves money and makes finding crew much easier. Being successful peeps they have a vested intrest in staying alive so invest in safety. I have met many of these types and this is where a private operation is desirable and an AOC would not be considered.
As far as advantages are concerned, I have never hear of a private flight being upgraded (if thats the word) to charter, for any advantage, but I have heard and experienced the opposite.
what next
7th Jan 2010, 08:31
Good morning!
Pace: If you knowingly carry an illegal charter yes, but if in good faith you believe you are carrying a legal charter you cannot be held responsible.
Thats why I wrote: "If in doubt, ask." If the boss answers that it's legal, then you can play the "good faith" card. But if you suspect something (and be honest: _all_ the guys who do this kind of flying know very well when and when not to be suspicious) and don't do your best to find out, you will be held responsible (at least partly). Some aircraft owners may not even know what they can legally do with their plane. Who, if not their pilot is able to tell them?
MAXTHRUSTV1: can anyone advise on a general cost i.e is it likely to be in the £100000 range or is it charged per flight hour?
I could tell you a lot about the fees in Germany (EU-Ops as well), but since CAA might charge on a completely different basis, this won't help you much. Just pick up the phone and ask. Our authority is very helpful, they even have a brochure with all relevant information for start-up aviation businesses. Fees to be expected included. But in short: For your size of business, I would expect an initial fee below 10.000 Euros and yeary fees in the order of 3.000 Euros. Plus the fees associated with the maintenance programme (google for "CAME" if you have never heard about it) that may be an extra 3.000 Euros per year and aircraft (no actual maintenance included!). Or more.
Greetings, Max
CaptainProp
7th Jan 2010, 10:04
I think we will actually see the end to this discussion in the not too far future... Is it not correct that sometime in 2011 (12?) all turbojet aircraft and aircraft over a certain MTOM has to be on an AOC, regardless of being operated in "private" or commercial ops (EU)..? Anyone with more info on this?
CP
what next
7th Jan 2010, 10:18
Hi!
Anyone with more info on this?
Ask our friend google about "EASA NPAs 2009-02"!
Happy reading, Max
I think we will actually see the end to this discussion in the not too far future... Is it not correct that sometime in 2011 (12?) all turbojet aircraft and aircraft over a certain MTOM has to be on an AOC, regardless of being operated in "private" or commercial ops (EU)..? Anyone with more info on this?
Most of what comes out of EASAs think tank gets kicked into touch as a bad idea including nearly EASA itself so I would be surprised if that ridiculous idea ever came to fruition.
What would be the basis for loading private jets with the massive costs of operating under an AOC be?? other than jobs for the boys all round? none!
Pace
S.F.L.Y
7th Jan 2010, 12:29
No AOC for private ops but OPS 2 regulations which might be based on the International Standards for Business Aircraft Operations (IS-BAO).
As such safety issues, fatigue and other matters would be regulated and documented through adaptive and result oriented procedures. Still much more flexible than AOC with enough safety & quality standards.
SFLY
I am totally in support of plugging safety holes where they are apparent through accident stats. But you dont need an AOC for that.
I am opposed to saddling our industry with even larger costs just to keep burocrats and quangos in employment.
Pace
Years ago I was asked to set up a corporate aviation department in the middle east.
The company, the second largest in the world in petrochemical/pipeline construction, had a fatal accidet with their first corporate airplane (Lockheed JetStar) some years before, and the board Chairman was adament...pilots never ever fly fatigued, period.
As time went by, the demands of local management were such that I found myself flying over 100 hours/month, and the airplanes needed urgent deferred maintenance, yet the local management was undeterred...we must continue to fly.
I called the company Chairman in California (at 2am, his time)and explained the 'situation'.
The Chairman asked to speak to the local manager.
Thereafter was the most vocal ass-chewing I have ever heard (it was on speakerphone) and the local manager turned white as a sheet when the Chairman told him he would be replaced forthwith, if he dared to interfere with my aviation department.
Thereafter, nothing but co-operation from the local folks.
The Chairman had his name on the side of the building...and took no BS from anyone, regarding their aviation departments...we reported to him, and no one else.
Paradise Lost
7th Jan 2010, 17:24
Despite some of the tongue-in-cheek replies above, the truth is that operating (and obtaining) an AOC under EASA regs varies considerably in both complexity and cost, between one aviation authority and another.
IMHO, the sooner EASAOPS 2 is introduced, the better. It will eliminate the excesses of some private operations, while making it more relevant to corporate ops than the current -OPS 1 which is designed for scheduled airlines.
For example, how can you operate an a/c to a Cat C airfield on an ad hoc charter? For the airlines flying set routes, it is easy to qualify crews to fly in and out of specific airports, but in our type of operation, it may well be the only time the crew have ever, or are likely to, land at a particular location.
...but in our type of operation, it may well be the only time the crew have ever, or are likely to, land at a particular location.
And this is somehow a serious particular problem?
If so, then...why?
Lots of charter operators (even using large jet aircraft), do this every day, and quite safely, too.
CaptainProp
8th Jan 2010, 12:14
Yes, but operating under JAR OPS you can't really do that. I don't have the JAR reference but our OPS manual states:
"Prior to operating into a category C aerodrome, the pilot in command
must be briefed about and visit the aerodrome as an observer and/or un-
dertake instruction in a flight simulator approved for that purpose and/or
fulfill any requirements and instructions defined in the respective AIP for
that particular aerodrome."
So, to accept a charter to a Cat C airport is not "possible", not without said training. Cat B is a different thing since you are allowed to "self brief" on the particulars of the airport.
Yes, but operating under JAR OPS you can't really do that.
Then clearly JAR OPS is out of touch with reality (no surprise there, certainly).
No wonder private ops are desirable.
411A..... You have to wake up a bit. There is dozens of airport in which you cannot get in IFR ( using an ifr approach in) without prior training and/Authorization; regardless being Private, Public Transport, Fractional or Astronaut.
Some of these are in Europe (Innsbruck, Sion, Lugano, London City, etc..) but others in the US of A, like Bishop,CA for RWY 30 or RNAV Y in Palm Springs, CA on 31L or JFK on 13L (RNAV rnp as well); actually you have over 50 airports as such in the states. Even Bhutan has a cat C airport.
So sorry to wake you up; but you will soon see things coming in america, that will make you read english again. ( have a look at the NPRMs).
Good thing for you , you dumped SA and FC for METAR and TAF...the rest is following, no worries ;-)
Categorizing an airport is an ICAO request, and as such is enforced with more or less efficiency, depending of the country.
thank you gentlemen...
....for the good discussion. there were some good inputs and thoughts so far!
I have tried do download the ICAO annex 6 part 2 from the web, but so far no result, as ICAO does not share their docs without money ( being on tour here and there - no chance to get it now...) any advices?
I am still looking for some answers: what is legal on private ops, what is illegal?
all regs I have found, just concern commercial ops so far.
e.g: on departure: single eng. climb gradients or not?
flying approach CAT C with a CAT D aircraft? possible? or not?
don´t get my posting wrong, please: I fly in a very safety orieted environment, but once the box is opened, I want to know things more precise.
best regards
welle
lear60fellow
8th Jan 2010, 17:28
ICAO annex 6 part 2 just tells you that the captain is the whole responsible for everything, not like part 1 where the operator is responsible.