Oxford Aviation Employment Statistics

[jamestkirk]

112 got jobs.

of which;

71 - paid for TR with Ryanair
16 - on the netjets scheme (if they are actually flying!!!)
6 - Thomas Cook (was that through CTC)

Leaving only 19 who went to A N Other.

Is it really that bad out of OAA. How many total cadets were there last year.

I am not slagging OAA off. Its just interesting to see if the main FTO in the UK is finding it hard to place people with an airline (SSTR excluded).

[Superpilot]

Actual repayments with interest will be more than £100k (full mathematical breakdown available for those who are interested). And what's worse I know of people who did just that and now are stuggling to get flying hours (RYR pay by the block hour). That's not a ******* career! :mad: :mad: :mad:

[v6g]

Considering that it's paid back with after tax money, then it's more than £200k of earnings.

[ab33t]

Check through these forums and you will find many OAA people doing their nut due to no job as promised after laying out all the dosh. OAA fees and then still paying for a Ryan air TR ouch wish I had the bucks

[jamestkirk]

Does anyone know how many integrated cadets went through in 2009. And I am sure (work with someone who is one of the statistics) they count graduates from previous year(s) into the year they got a job. Not entirely accurate employment statistics then.

[Cirrus_Clouds]

That's what I've wondered. The student may have studied & completed part of their training at OAA and then completed it at another organisation e.g. like CTC and then found a job. Then quite likely OAA and CTC both show stats to recognise the achievement.

I believe OAA/CTC/FTE/Cabair etc are only useful in the good times (even though people are willing to pay up in a recession and take a risk) when it comes to getting a job, otherwise join the queue/backlog until the good times emerge. But by then, being further in debt to keep current or getting rusty, or by paying for a TR could potentially cause many problems if you haven't got a plan B.... but then again, you wouldn't have signed the dotted line for an integrated course if you hadn't got a plan B surely?

It would be interesting to know how past integrated students are coping (who are not in the RHS) and how they are getting by in times like now. Maybe their security did come in useful and they are keeping quiet or some sort of delayed payments were involved.....

The fact that FTE are doing modular courses in a recession says something, when the demand for integrated courses would quite likely reduce. Thats the other question, are less people signing up for integrated programs at the moment and holding fire until certain growth/progress has been made in the economy?

[hollingworthp]

NetJets cadets are currently flying

[TheBeak]

Yes they use people from previous years - if someone graduated 5 years ago and has only just been 'selected' to pay for a TR with Ryanair then when the FTO report is requested Oxford know a job has been achieved and so notch another stike on the bed board. Their statistics are so manipulated and Byzantine (I have word of the day loo paper) that they are nothing more than a sales tool. Ignore them, wipe your ar5e with them (like my loo paper but less useful) but definately pay them no attention. Oxford have played no part in the majority of their employment stats as well - certainly in the last year or two. Though to be fair, they are now playing a great part in twenty fine young little mummy and daddies boys and girls paths to becoming a real life, all singing, all dancing, Ray Ban wearing, once a day Facebook status updating (with their 'is in Malaga' or 'is in Rome' or 'travelled 2681 miles today') little pilot - with Easyjet. At least for 75 hours and at most a summer. :ok:

[shaun ryder]

NetJets cadets are currently flying

Maybe..

But at the rate you guys fly it will 2020 before you manage to get your ATP. Some might even see a command this century if they are lucky.

[jamestkirk]

I did the modular groundschool there a few years back. OAA were getting very up themselves and saying things like, quote; 'we are thinking of stopping modular training as we dont need the business'. Stupid w@nkers!

I dont think they would be taking that view now.

[UAV689]

Check through these forums and you will find many OAA people doing their nut due to no job as promised after laying out all the dosh. OAA fees and then still paying for a Ryan air TR ouch wish I had the bucks

No sympathy for them. If you graduated this week from OAA you started training right in the middle of the sh*ite. Blatently clear this mess would be with us for ages. Even people that started in 2007 should have seen the writing on the wall.

If they are going mad 'cos oxford promised them a job they must be retarded. How can a school promise anyone a job??? Any potenial oxford wannabes dont even pay a deposit, dont even think about starting.

[PPRuNeUser0165]

Not all Netjet cadets are flying! What about the 8 who had to take the 3 years of until further notice?? I believe they started after you hollingworth but graduated in 2009!

[Superpilot]

The Oxford Integrated Course is completely pointless and meaningless in the current environment. Traditionally you paid Oxford your £60-70k so they would get you a job at BA, BMI etc where the type rating would be paid for.

This was the big selling point. Now that the doors at these airlines are closed (and even when they do open you would have to fork out for the type rating out of your own pocket), the Oxford APP is not worth the money. This is the biggest lesson to learn from these statistics.

[mad_jock]

I disagree with that super pilot.

The full time controlled intergrated course does have its place in the market.

Theory

People learn in different ways. Some have no problem what so ever having the personal self displine to self study and are able to learn by grasping the basics and then applying that to problems. Doing a full days work then being able to productively study is another issue.

Others maybe through lack of schooling or personal attributes need to be in a controlled enviroment and given the information on a plate. The application of basics doesn't come naturally so a whole range of questions and applications of the basic knowledge have to be covered.

Practical

It does help some people to have continuity with one organisation. In some ways the students who have gone striaght to flight training missing out the Uni experence are doing the same growing up with thier peers that Uni students do in thier First year. They are all young full of cum and high volumes of beer is still a novelty.

I really don't have a problem with anyone doing Intergrated because it suits thier learning style or capabilities. It does suit some people and is worth every penny they pay for it.

Now the marketing bollocks that some believe. That in some way they will be better trained and have special qualities compared to others I do have a problem with.

[TheBeak]

q1W2e3R4t5, too true.

[EI-CON]

I really dont agree with this you cant pay for your type rating with Ryanair lark. I read elsewhere on this website people advising to keep your MEIR current, do a little flying in a SEP to keep current and wait 5 years for the likes of BA etc to start hiring again.

Including accomodation, travel expenses etc I wouldnt have much change out of 5,000EURO doing an MEIR renewal. Doing that for 5 years = 25,000EURO and thats not including keeping current in a SEP!:ugh: Id rather give the money to Ryanair get a couple of thousand hours on the 738 and possibly command within 5 years.

I am against the Easyjet notion of paying for line training and not having a job past the summer but with Ryanair you have a job and are getting paid.

Just my two........

[pilotho]

I feel that paying to be a professional is not really a new thing. Just think how many years medical students have to endure and pay to eventually get a job as a doctor, same goes for a dentist. I also agree that the fees that they pay are no where near as high but then everyone knew the price to pay at the start. Point is, paying to be a professional has been around.

What EI-CON said is very true I think. If you're a new pilot, experience is key and flying around in a SEP and then renewing your ME-IR every year isn't really ideal for gaining experience. Then once the airlines are hiring, it would be the Ryanair pilots who were newbies and now experienced applying for those big airlines job. Who would have a better chance of getting a job then?

[TheBeak]

Just think how many years medical students have to endure and pay to eventually get a job as a doctor, same goes for a dentist.

Completely irrelevant, unfounded, incorrect junk. Unfortunately there is no SD card that you can just plug in to install the knowledge to a person - the length of the course is necessary. The costs are justifiable and not unreasonable. The remuneration reflects the amount invested in terms of both time, work and money. And they don't pay to do the job - they are paid.

The Ryanair debate has barely been touched on and isn't the major point of this thread other than to say that 71 out of 112 of the people that actually managed to get a job from the 300 that actually trained had to pay an extra 33000 Euros and were not helped one jot by the stupid company that are staking a claim on these 'results'.

[EI-CON]

I dont want to take away from the point of this tread but I didnt expect any job help from my school. You pay them for a service of getting you a licence no more no less there not a recruitment agency there a flight school.

Anyways oxford, FTE, PTC etc cant make jobs where there are none! Thank goodness for Ryanair for taking these 71 aswell as the others they have taken from FTE, PTC etc. Only for them there would be a lot more pilots in the dole queue.

[shaun ryder]

You forgot the standard issue Breitling, a very useful tool for an aspiring young sky god! ;)

[UAV689]

Thank goodness for Ryanair for taking these 71 aswell as the others they have taken from FTE, PTC etc. Only for them there would be a lot more pilots in the dole queue.

Hardly pilots! the real out of work pilots are the ones that have recently been laid off and cant get hired by ryan air due to their experience, and get turned away by the young babies with blue books churned out by OAA. They are the real pilots. Dont think you could join the dole queue leaving OAA as you havent been laid off or worked...!

Wait 10 years down the line till the next recession and they will be experienced and get the chop for the next batch of youngsters....

apologies for the thread creep sir.

[EI-CON]

UAV689,

Ryanair is also hiring direct entry captains. And for your info the "babies" cant get into Korean Air, Vietnam Airlines, Wizz Air, Ethiad, Denim Air, Avanti Air, Tyrolean etc who are all or have all been recently hiring due to our lack of hours. Not to mention the amount of other companies who tell us "babies" that they cant accept our applications because we dont have 1500 hours or 500 multi hours etc etc.

So I think you last post was slightly out of context.

[Torque Tonight]

Another Oxford Modular grad here (in employment). I was quite happy with the standard of training I received at Oxford and have no complaints regarding the course (especially as my licence was about £40k cheaper than those of the Integrated guys).

OAA as an institution however provides no employment support for the modular guys and for that reason I do not consent to being used as an OAA employment stat. In fact a recent OAA scheme specifically barred mod grads from applying, which I found so deplorable that I nearly wrote to complain.

I should say that the careers officer, Nick Mylne, is a great chap who goes above and beyond the call of duty to help graduates, mod included. His help is very much appreciated but it is given by him on a personal level, not by OAA as an institution.

[UAV689]

little harder to move over seas with wife/kids etc which is what some of these experienced guys have, most of those airlines you listed are overseas.

If your an experienced FO in UK i think things are bleak, sometimes I really question has this profession gone to the wall and should i stick at my current job rather than pursuing this one!

Any way again sorry for going totally off topic, morale of the story, back to thread is that OAA are sharks out to make a few quid from you all. (not that every school isn't out for a profit, just not to the tune of what oaa charge!)

[jamestkirk]

Nick Mylne is a top bloke. We had him for air law. Only he can make that subject interesting.

I especially like his response when you even got the simplest question right. He just said 'beautiful'.

[EI-CON]

UAV689,

I understand what your saying as I know similar guys who training with me who cant move but in the current market beggers cant be choosers experienced or not!

But as you said back to OAA as that is what this tread is about!

[Matthew Adams]

We get phone calls every day from Oxford students looking for work as instructors at the FTO I work for - many of whom were on some kind of sponsorship scheme which hasn't provided work etc.

Oxford's marketing department is good :ok:

[Oxjob]

Someone needs to send that link to the major newspapers, they'd jump all over it, especially the Daily Mail!

I got made redundant earlier this year thanks to some little wannabe skygods paying to do my job! Now my old airline won't even take on experienced First Officers. Dig a hole for yourselves wannabes, or make a stand and save this profession, not just for us, but for yourselves too!

[UAV689]

media and joe bloggs wouldnt give two hoots about poor old airline pilot

1 - people think they are all rich, why cry for a rich pilot when factory workers laid off..
2 - people dont even understand that an FO can fly the aircraft
3 - people still think everyone is sponsored, and dont pay vast somes to train.

Industry is screwed, only a bad prang will change views and rules.

[Oxjob]

Surely it's time to educate them then....

[jamestkirk]

dont some of us pick a national newspaper each and try and get them interested in the realities

[IrishJetdriver]

Interesting video. It states the truth about paying for line training. If you look back 18 months or so it also states what was actually the bleedin' obvious to anyone who cared to pay attention to the way the market was going.

I do object however to Ryanair being mentioned at the end as although they almost undoubtedly were the first major carrier to require one to self sponsor, they certainy don't do line training deals, the TR has a solid job attached to it and so far i've not met any FO flying less then 700hrs per year.

It's a tough world for wannabe's for sure, but the writing was on the wall a long time ago and if you recently qualified from an integrated course then you ignored all the signs before you started.

I've said it, others have said it, don't pay for line training. It will get you absolutely nowhere at the moment and if there was a general need for pilots then these schemes wouldn't exist as they do now. The knock-on effect is that people who had jobs through graft, tenacity and ability are losing them so that the pay to fly pilot can have the seat. Temporarily of course.

It took me 2yrs to get my first job and I don't know how much was to luck or timing, tenacity or ability. A dollop of each I imagine. While I waited I returned to my old office job and paid the bills. I didn't have any loans for flying as I was able to do the self improver route but I did have a mortgage and wife and daughter to support.

Most people seem to be so young and so desperate. Get some life experience doing something else that pays. You've got years and years ahead of you to fly, and i'm sure for many it will happen in the end. Be patient, batten down the hatches and don't subscribe to a system that clearly will not only not get you anywhere but also destroys other people's lives.

[fischerflyer]

because most people on this forum are all talk and no backbone. When it comes down to it, people only care about themselves. I have already leaked aload of stuff to one leading aviation publication. But guess who their advertisers are!? :ugh:

[v6g]

I wonder what the effect would be if, say, some pilots who had lost their jobs for these pay-to-fly kids, stood around easys check-in desks (in uniform so as to attract attention) and handed out leaflets explaining that the aircraft they're about to fly on will only have 1 professional pilot on board.

[student88]

I do find it somewhat offensive that every OAA graduate is branded with the ‘rich daddy brush’.

..and most Essex girls get tired of being branded with the Essex bird brush - but they mostly laugh it off and get on with life.

Somewhat offensive? Man-up soldier.

OAA, CTC, FTE et al and these Ryanair/easyJet pay-to-fly schemes are the cancer that are going to slowly and painfully kill our profession.

Simple as.

Stick with instructing for as long as you can and find a career which offers you respectful pay, security and terms & conditions.

Here's a hint, you won't find it at an airport.

[wanabe2010]

soon there will be plenty of A320 pilots with 75-500h on type. Where they will go? BA? KLM? lufthansa? oh maybe Alitalia? ahah! or Emirates, yeah I eared they are looking for experimented FO.

this profession is :mad: I can tell you.There is no way to get a job if you pay to fly.
I bet you will see Ryanair doing the same in a few days/weeks and many other airline will follow the same type of scheme (scam?).

They will suck you dry(squeeze the lemon, until no pulp left), then kick you dry on the streets with your debts to pay.
"but Sir, you have 500h on type, with this you can find a job, good luck "
"sure I can find a job if I pay to fly , again...!":ugh:

[Cirrus_Clouds]

Keeping in mind we're only talking about 2 airlines (EZY and Ryanair) who have these sorts of schemes. Around the world there are 100's if not a few 1000 airlines, not to mention Business Jet companies and other flying jobs all together, so there will be some time yet if things become across the board in terms of TR and Line Training.

An EZY pilot I know who got in before all this stuff happened is on a different contract all together, so is not affected it seems. Only new cadets. EZY got rid of quite a few of CTC cadets last year as they no longer required their services (especially with schemes like this coming about).

If this industry ends up going like EZY and Ryanair (whilst Ryanair actually employs pilots for another £24k!!) in all companies (I doubt), then I'll hang up my bags as common sense kicks in, as it's becoming a career not worth pursuing, especially the Line Training part, that's a complete joke! :* "why not pay a company so you can work for them, rather than them paying you".

[Tex®]

A said by someone before I think that this industry is really over. As a pilot. :yuk: You cannot get any money from that. Not worth the price anyway, considering all the efforts both emotional and economic we all dealt with... And, yes, needless to say, things will get worse with time as globalization goes on. It's just a market rule : as long as there will be the demand for, offer will be present...Italian's "market" has a lot of airlines offering the same schemes proposed by Easy and Ryan as well...
It's funny that there's still a lot of people who keep on depicting this as a common, fairly democratic and non-elite job...

[CaptainJim]

If you have a £100k to play with invest it in property not an over priced shiny blue license.

Don't give up on your dream either but start your flight training when you can expect to get a job after it and remember once you go 1 year without a job or flying after license issue your seen as damaged goods and its even harder to land a job.:ugh:

I'm currently flying 737s and I can tell you there are a lot of unemployed 737 pilots out there with 000s of hours. Who do you the think the airlines will choose? (other than the type rating factories ie EZY & FR)

[CaptainJim]

Well said mate good luck with finding a job.:ok:

[Callsign Kilo]

You invest heavily in sales and marketing and it pays dividends.
You cleverly manipulate statistics and it pays dividends.
You expand into the TRTO market and it pays dividends.
You advertise 'airline partnerships' and it pays dividends.
You promote yourself as a global player and...yep, you guessed it.

The average age of an Oxford cadet is what? 20, 21, 22?

Naivety is still ripe. Oxford thrive upon it and it will continue. They are a business after all and there are still plenty who will throw 70K+ at an ATPL.

Even if you stood up in the middle of one of their open days and managed to successfully contradict many of their statements, those around you would only ignore your rants. These guys are already 'sold' and you will merely be the annoying chap who spouted a load of guff at their seminar.

Fair play to Oxford, they have made a nice little bed for themselves. They are more than aware that many potential suitors will see through their 'sh1te'
however the number that refuse to see beyond their 'razzmatazz' far outstrips those who won't.

[Damianik]

Alitalia Flight School did the same to its cadets 8 years ago. Of 450 pilots out of the course, 150 didnt get in Alitalia due to bad timing (post 9/11) and of those 150, 60 are still not pilots, of the 90 left, 50 paid a TR to some other company with the money they earned in the 4 years being not flying or from bank.
Of those 50, not all are happy in a big company and a few didnt finish paying off the 100k that all this was worth....
italian newspapers, parlament and judges have been informed of all this and they said "tought luck boys"

End of story

D

PS forgot to mention that of those 300 that actually DID get into Alitalia, 150 of them are now on the streets after Alitalia reorganization...

D

[hollingworthp]

1. Did somebody say 'global' crisis?
2. Is this the new EASA / FAA combined course where you buy one licence
& get one free?
3. New regulations in FAA-land requiring minimum 1500 hours from airline co-pilots?

[smith]

(which makes me a CARICOM national so could potentially be hired by airlines based on ay of the other CARICOM airlines).


Does CARICOM accept a JAA license? The US won't, you will need to convert it to an FAA license to work there. Realistically, the JAA license will limit you to Europe, with a few exceptions. Sorry to rain on your parade mate.:ok:

[UAV689]

Higher higher - good one you for looking in and doing some home work. I am afraid however your dual nationality won't really help. OAa will give you a jaa cpl, to work in the countries you mention means you will need more money to convert to FAA and then have to get 1500 hrs min which is the norm in the states I believe but as always stand to be corrected. Your only 19, save up get a back up job, go modular and part time and you will have saved enoughed dosh to get the FAA ticket as well. And that I bet will cost you the same as full time at the oaa sharks. Think of it as a buy one get one free

[EI-CON]

Guys and Gals,

Firstly can all the people putting Ryanair in with Easyjet please get your facts right. Ryanair do not have a pay for line training scheme like Easyjet so please stop telling others they do!! Ryanair make your pay for your type rating just like a lot of the so called "proper" airlines do.

Example, a friend of mine completed his ATR type rating to fly with a well know Irish regional airline last year. It cost him almost 30,000Euro. After 6 months he was made unemployed with around 500 hours on type. Sound familiar??? Now I know he lost his job due to the economic climate however had he joined Ryanair he would have done 900 hours that year, this year, next year etc and his type rating would have cost him the same.

Secondly, I finished training last June and have sent out liturally hundreds of CV's since then. Out of all the companies I applied too including airlines, cargo, private jets, servey companies etc, only ONE company showed any interest in me. The rest all told me I didnt have enough hours, I didnt have multi crew hours, I didnt have enough twin hours etc etc. So I think all this is being blown slightly out of proportion. Dont get me wrong I do not agree with paying for line training and i think what EASYJET are doing is terrible but Im just giving this all some perspective.

[cambridge]

MikeEcho.

YouTube - easyJet, CTC, Oxford PILOT ABUSE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RmaaPMDAYo)

The press and radio/tv would be very interested in this one.
The one thing Easy and co. don't like is bad publicity. In fact, it would make a good "Watchdog" type TV programme. :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[LetsFlyAway]

I understand that what is happening with EasyJet is not doing the industry any favours.

However the press would not be interested in this film. So some guys are paying for their opportunity to be flying. They are qualified individuals and therefore safe pilots. What EasyJet are doing is not illegal, its just not helping the industry.

What does Joe Public care if the person on the flight deck has paid their money to be there (and is qualified), than EasyJet paying it for them...

I dont agree with what EasyJet are doing however it would make no difference to the public image, people will still fly with them as they are cheap.

[MrMutra]

Letsflyaway is right, the press couldn't give a damn nor could the public.

Only ones who care a jot are the mass of unemployed pilots who object on moral grounds. As there are no morals anymore, its just a case of how deep are your pockets ?

Why would an airline object to a workforce paying to come to work ? No other company in any other industry would object to being treated like a charity.

It really is a sad joke now, none of my friends can believe me when they hear of pilots paying to go to work.

So very sad

MrM

[demomonkey]

There are undoubtedly major 'structural' problems in this Industry (and fly by night cowboys) and yes, new entrants to this Industry are getting a very very raw deal.

But the problems are throughout the entire industry. The rest of the world has moved on and created flexible employment conditions. But we hang onto archaic practises that allow employers and a few at the top of the scale to enjoy significant advantage.

Yet those people who we pay to represent us every month through our pay packets have no plans to change our world for the better. Trebles all round?

I often wonder what EZY/FR pax would do if they knew that their FO annd CC were actually subsidising the cost of their seats. Maybe they'd have a 'whip round' like people do for coach drivers!

[jez d]

the press would not be interested in this film.

Not necessarily. It depends entirely on how you present it.

"Crippling debt and lack of job security leads to dangerous levels of stress on the flightdeck"

There's a headline they'll no doubt lap up.

Regards, jez

[LetsFlyAway]

jez_d im afraid i dont agree..... if anything i feel your comment would make the situation worse.

Lets not forget that this industry is an a deep depression just now.

If we go out to the press and explain that due to this programme, we have pilots who are stressed due to the amount of debt they have accumulated along with possibility of not being able to keep their job.

I think the only thing this will do will make the public lose faith in aviation as a safe mode of transport.

As far as im concerned the bottom line is that you cant try and explain this to the press. All that will happen is the industry will suffer more than it currently is.

[jez d]

Yes, I'm not actually suggesting it should be done, just pointing out that's the angle they'll be interested in.

[EI-CON]

I love how everyone just stepped over my previous post because it was not exactly what you all wanted to hear.

This forum is very balanced...........:ugh::ugh:

[Skyhigh86]

Well if Oxford want to advertise their latest scandal in their "employment" statistics then they should be reported to trading standards!

[therapist]

Years ago the integrated course (eg Hamble, Perth and Oxford years gone by) represented fly one day, ground-school the next. In this way students were able to apply the knowledge gained in ground-school almost immediately to real life flying. The system whereby a student will complete their ATPLs in six months and then and only then commence flying training is flawed. Speak to any Instructor who is faced with training students so trained and he/she will tell you generally how poor their average standard is. Moreover, if following a six month crash ground-school course the student is shipped out to receive sub-standard training abroad, the result is disaster. It was a sad day when our CAA succumbed to school and accountant pressure to change to the present system of what in effect is modular training under the expensive guise of an 'integrated' label. Do not be fooled that training under one large roof is any better or more integrated than a modular route at a high-standard school.

[Whirlygig]

to change to the present system of what in effect is modular training But with modular training, a student flies and studies whilst doing a PPL, builds hours and studies for ATPL exams.

The present system as you describe is not like modular training; it's worse. :}

Cheers

Whirls