Dealing with the weather?

[Contacttower]

Could someone explain to me why it is so little snow seems to be causing so much trouble?

For example yesterday evening it started snowing at Southampton causing the cancellation of several flights and the airport shut early. A message on their website said that staff would be working through the night to get the runway clear, how long does it take to clear a runway? Is that airports in the south of this country simply don't have the equipment to deal with snow (I can understand it may not be viable to have it since is only used rarely) or is it that the preparation for such weather and the plans in place to deal with it need improving?

For instance at Gatwick, where they have two runways but only use one at a time because they are so close to each other, could they not alternate between the runways so that while one is being cleared the other is being used and then switch over when the other needs clearing?

Is it realistic to expect any better from Britain's airports?

[pulse1]

Until I retired a few years ago I spent 13 years travelling daily between Poole and Portsmouth. I was affected by snow only twice and I don't think it snowed for another three years after that. How can one expect to have the equipment and people trained to use it efficiently when it snows so rarely?

Do you think that the public would be happy to be legally required to use snow tyres every Winter just in case it snowed? This is what happens in Sweden. Why should we expect our airport and local authorities to be any different?

[WHBM]

Actually most airports do have a surprising amount of snow clearance equipment. As I write this I can hear some in action.

Unfortunately the dead hand of Health & Safety and other regulations ("not qualified on this machine", "can't walk on snow without certified boots","hired-in plant stuck on the other side of security awaiting clearance", *proper de-icing fluid not compliant with new environmental rules", etc) means that it just takes so much longer to achieve the same thing as previously.

[PAXboy]

Contacttower, a pal of mine works on snow clearance (amongst other duties) at LTN. I was chatting with him this morning after he came off a night duty. "We'd got the runway cleared by HH:MM and were really pleased and just about to ring ATC to hand it back to them - when it started to snow again. So we waited to see what it was like, and in 30 minutes it was a total white-out. It just came down so heavily, we had to start all over again."

Perhaps that puts another angle on it.

[WHBM]

How do you think that airports in Canada, Scandinavia and Russia manage ? Do you believe they close down for 6 months of the year ?

Why are ski flights delayed departing from London or Manchester, but rarely from Geneva or Salzburg on the return ?

There seems to be an insistence that there is not a snowflake visible on the runway. Yet last year I made a departure as pax in a BA 747 from a Canadian airport in a blizzard. What on earth do you think manufacturers put Contaminated Runway procedures in the Flight Manual for ?

[OFSO]

Thread drift on

I spent 25 years in Germany where we had some pretty hard winters. It was a joke (yes, folks, Germans do make jokes - now and then) that German car drivers could happily go on holiday and drive around Austria and Switzerland when they went down to ski with never an accident, but as soon as they got home to Germany they'd crash on a couple of mm of snow on the road....

Thread drift off

[Dazbo5]

Could someone explain to me why it is so little snow seems to be causing so much trouble?
You've obviously not had much in Winchester then! Where I am, we've had the best part of 20-25cm and whenI parked the car up an hour since, it was -8C. That's not 'so little snow'. I agree that more could be done and other countries cope much better, but there are budgets to consider. Given it was probably 30 years since we've seen snow like this and we maybe get a day or two of snow a year normally, you can't expect £££££ worth of equipment to stand rusting in case we have snow. Of course countries that have snow / ice for months a year are going to be better prepared, they know it's coming and have to deal with it.

My hat goes off to those on the front line dealing with it. You've done a great job in keeping things running the best you can :ok:

Darren

[Airbus Girl]

There are plenty of problems caused by the snow, certainly down south today. Its been snowing heavily much of the day, and there is a good foot of snow here now. Once the runway is clear aircraft can go again, but there are knock on problems. The runway must be tested to see how slippery it is - contamination is one thing, but we can't go if we can't stop in the case of rejected take-off. Similarly for landing, there are restrictions as obviously you don't want to be skidding off the runway. Then there are delays due to aircraft de-icing. With all the snow today it would have been near impossible to get a clean aircraft for long enough to get airborne. The surfaces need to be completely clear of snow or ice, and even when they have been sprayed with de/anti-icer it only lasts a very short time in this kind of weather. Often abroad they have a dump of snow but then its nice weather again, which is no problem. I've been to Lapland numerous times and ski resorts regularly but its rare its actually snowing or forecast to snow during the day.

The other problem of course is that when airports close for snow clearance aircraft divert - leaving aircraft and crew in the wrong places and often the crew will be out of hours before they can move the aircraft again (reduced duty times for 3 sector days).

And also if its snowing heavily visibility is reduced and some aircraft would not be able to legally get in anyway.

Many considerations but I think even in places like Canada and Scandinavia, weather like we have seen in the south today would have shut airports there for snow clearance.

[silverelise]

Could someone explain to me why it is so little snow seems to be causing so much trouble?

How do you think that airports in Canada, Scandinavia and Russia manage ? Do you believe they close down for 6 months of the year ?

Why are ski flights delayed departing from London or Manchester, but rarely from Geneva or Salzburg on the return ?

We get horrible wet snow in this country. Foreigners get nice dry powdery snow.

The latter is much easier to deal with.

:ok:

[al446]

"not qualified on this machine" - Fair enough, we'll just let any old numpty drive or use any machine they wish thereby getting rid of all training requirements. So next time an uninsured tractor ploughs into your pride and joy out on a country road you'll just take it on the chin and enquire after the driver's welfare shall you?
This requirement is in place as a) Nobody wants to put several hundred million guid's worth of a/c at risk because the baggage handler mucking in on snow clearance decides it would be be quicker to just jump on deicing equipment which he's sure he can master as he has watched a guy use it once. Ta ta to A320 wing. Or worse.
b) Insurance company would declare the a/p's policy null and void. Ta ta to public liability hello bankruptcy.

"can't walk on snow without certified boots" - You may think that nobody on the planet matters but you and your nearest and dearest. I have a wider respect. So does the employer as under law he has a duty of care to employee's welfare and safety. This duty would be breached if the employee was required to operate in threatening conditions. Both parties have an equal duty to observe this so if employee is aware that he may slip in the conditions he is in error if he does not make employer aware of this. Dispute can then arise as to what is suitable footwear hence certification.

This is not H&S gone daft, it is genuine protection of all parties including you. It is also to prevent some fool with views similar to you telling their employees to just get on with it no matter what because they are the ones that brought about the original problems which led to these rules being in place.

Have a safe day.

[PAXboy]

One public facility in my neighbourhood where I often have to work is owned and run by the Council. The gardeners explain that they are not given the budget to cope with the (now) occasional bad winter. Consequently, they were clearing the roads and paths inside the gates by hand. They did a great job.

If the whole of the Northern Hemisphere is experiencing highly unusual weather conditions (be they higher or lower than normal) I think that the UK can be let off the hook about this. Thirty years ago, councils might have spent the money on big equipment but the UK decided (through the ballot box) that they wanted councils to spend less money and reduce taxes.

Further, they were happy for the airports to be privatised and to put the shareholders in front of the pax.

So, here we are ...
:p

[Capot]

Could someone explain to me why it is so little snow seems to be causing so much trouble?A lot of the ground has been covered already, but there is another factor at work.

In the olden days, by which I mean before the wholesale privatisation of regional airports in the UK, many airport staffs took huge pride in keeping their airport open come what may. Pace the bloke supporting H&S precautions, and he's not entirely wrong, we just got on with the job, and I can tell you that there's few things more satisfying and enjoyable than being the 3rd in echelon with a blade going down 2Km of runway at 30pmh at 0200 after heavy snow, and enabling the first departure at 0630 .

And guess what, the crew, ops, engineering, airport staff and passengers all managed to get there in time as well, because they were not the brainwashed sheep that exist today who take a day off if they see a snowflake on the News and a policeman intones "Stay at home; it's dangerous out there" as though it really is.

We stayed open while some others closed. It wasn't just pride; we would collect tens of thousands of pounds for diversions that amply covered the cost of not closing.

Now, unfortunately, the bean counters have got spreadsheets that say that staying open is more expensive in terms of marginal cost than the marginal revenue that it earns. They're plumb wrong, because their range of vision is so limited and they cannot quantify the other costs of closure, but once a bean counter starts on about marginal costing, he's off with the fairies and you can only give up.

This applies to the smaller airports now, I think. The airport I'm talking about shut yesterday or the day before with 1 inch of snow, repeat ONE INCH OF SNOW.

If I were an airline based there, or indeed one that has scheduled flights though it, I'd sue for incompetence, disruption and loss of business.

We kept it operational (for up to medium jets) after 1 foot of snow and temps down to -10C, 2 decades ago, using one ex Council urea spreader for surface ice prevention, 3 ex Council blade vehicles for snow clearance, and the will to provide the promised service to airlines come what may. The Financial Director was a whizz with the urea spreader; he was put on that because he would do it as economically as possible without missing a square metre. Management staff worked at night to rest up the proper operators for daytime. If we cleared and it snowed again, we cleared again. If we let it get too deep it became more difficult to shift.

Ah well, those were the days......back to the 21st century.

[Captb747]

For instance at Gatwick, where they have two runways but only use one at a time because they are so close to each other, could they not alternate between the runways so that while one is being cleared the other is being used and then switch over when the other needs clearing?

FWIW GAtwick only has the one runway!!

[WHBM]

FWIW GAtwick only has the one runway!!
I really shouldn't have to post this to a Capt of a B747, but ....

IATA Identifier: LGW
ICAO Identifier: EGKK

Runway Length 26L/08R: 3316m x 46m
Runway Length 26R/08L: 2565m x 45m - this runway used only when 26L/08R is not available.

[strake]

How do you think that airports in Canada, Scandinavia and Russia manage ? Do you believe they close down for 6 months of the year ?


I think we have to apply a little bit of understanding here.

Mrs Strake hails from Northern Siberia where the temp is around -40c Jan to March. We happily fly in there from time to time landing on a runway that is part iced up, part cleared. It's a bit bumpy but otherwise, fine. The fact is, they don't clear the snow/ice simply because at those temps most of the water is removed from the atmosphere and surface and the ice is like concrete. The problem comes at the beginning and end of season when the temps are -10c to 0c. That's when people start falling over and cars have prangs.
In the UK, we just don't have that sort of weather normally so it would be ridiculous to plan and pay for it. Anyway, after a week or so, either everything clears up or we all start getting used to the conditions.

[Avman]

Loved your post Capot, especially:

but once a bean counter starts on about marginal costing, he's off with the fairies and you can only give up..

Oh so true.

[PAXboy]

WHBMI really shouldn't have to post this to a Capt of a B747, but ....How do you know he is a Capt of a B747? His public profile does not give any details, perhaps it's just his PPRuNe moniker? :}

[Captb747]

WHBM..........Maybe I should have been a bit more specific. Gatwick is the worlds busiest SINGLE - USE runway. To say it only has one runway may have been wrong and indeed you are correct in saying they use 26/08R when L is not available but this does not happen all the time now does it.

Also, thank you for supplying the IATA and ICAO cosed for Gatwick however, we were talking about the weather, and I mentioned the single runway bit...Cant see any reference to anybody needing any codes. :}

Lets say we can be as bad as each other :)

[manintheback]

In Pedant mode but I have taken off from both of Gatwicks runways. The shorter one we were told that aircraft with the requisite performance capabilities (and I assume that meant STOL) could use it - we were flying on a BAE 146 - main runway having been blocked by a jumbo melting and welding its breaks on an aborted take-off.

Having lived in Canada (Toronto) for a while they know that for at least 4 months and possibly upto 6 months they could be dealing with extreme weather - not surprisingly they have the equipment, expertise and experience to deal with it. I also had a 4*4 with winter tyres - you adapt.

[Final 3 Greens]

I flew out of ZRH yesterday in -2 and light snow showers.

There was a de-icing bay near the active runway and 6 de-icing trucks working in three pairs.

As an aircraft departed, the de-icers reversed back into position and as soon as the next aircraft taxied into position, they simulaneously decied the wings and then the empennage.

This kept a steady flow of aircraft departing and whilst some time was lost, it was a very slick operation and pretty cool to watch.

Please note I am not knocking the UK, just recognising a very good operation at Zurich.

[Capot]

...just recognising a very good operation at Zurich.

And elsewhere, including, I seem to remember as a passenger, Warsaw.

However, to be fair, these are airports where snow is a feature for several months of the year!

[Final 3 Greens]

Capot said

However, to be fair, these are airports where snow is a feature for several months of the year!

May I respectfully point him to my statement that....

Please note I am not knocking the UK, just recognising a very good operation at Zurich.

[Capot]

Capot says

re Please note I am not knocking the UKNor was I, at least not in post #21. And I felt that other airports should get some credit too, for efficient anti- and de-icing operations.

PS Just occasionally the CAA comes out with some excellent documents. This FODCOM about winter ops (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/FOD200931.pdf) is one of those and worth a read by anyone involved with aircraft operations in winter, as well as people who get FODCOMs anyway.

[mphysflier]

Completely agree with Final3Greens re the efficiency at Zurich - my family and I transferred there last Thus evening and were mightily impressed. We were late inbound from Manchester due to the weather delays and our expected transfer time of ~1hr shrank to 20 mins. Smoothly off the aircraft, onto bus, into terminal, straight onto train, immediate depart, birdsong, yodelling, off train, through efficient security check, onto HKG flight with 5 mins to spare. Six year old daughter then tickled pink at watching de-icing procedure running like clockwork from her window seat - she ducked invountarily at one point when the window copped a spray!