RAF Officers' Hats

[E L Whisty]

Advice would be welcome. I have a friend who is shortly to be in need of a new SD titfer (I hope). In my day the favoured bonce cover was supplied by Bates. I cannot find them on t'internet. Can anybody advise where I might be able to get a hat of similar quality and style?

[Bushfiva]

Stylish Hats and Caps, Hat Makers in London, Traditional Hats - Bates Hats in Jermyn Street in London - Welcome! (http://www.bates-hats.co.uk/index.html)?

[E L Whisty]

Thanks Bushfiva - cannot imagine why I could not find it!

[OHP 15M]

See link for a good selection of RAF officers hats (and other accessories):

RAF officers’ hats (http://www.costumesinc.com/t195/Clowns-Funny-Costume-Themes.html)

:ok:

[Tankertrashnav]

Herby Johnson's hats were IMO opinion just that bit better than Bates, but Bates were certainly pretty good. Better than the Gieves thing I foolishly bought when at OCTU. Here's a link if you want to compare with Bates.

Herbert Johnson military hats and uniform hats and headwear (http://www.herbert-johnson.co.uk/)

Just noticed their price is £135 before the recent VAT increase! I think mine was about a fiver in 1964, but then that was about 3 days pay as an APO, so I guess things haven't got any worse.

PS. OHP - Tut :=

[Old-Duffer]

The Bates hat was the creme de la creme of officers' titfers - but not anymore.

The pattern which made the Bates hat so distinguishable from all the others was not transferred when Bates transmogrified from what it was to where it is. Recent Bates hats do not have the style of the old version and I was told that all hats were manufactured by the same firm in south London and then labelled by whoever was selling them but I don't know how true that is.

Hats can be bought from supply sqn stores for about £50 and the various tailors at Cranwell - E C Snaith et al sell hats. Unfortunately, they are all much of a muchness - great pity.

[Samuel]

I always had a Bates in the RNZAF, although by the time I got to Singapore in ANZUK in 1974 it was looking a bit faded, so I acquired a brand new one from a friendly RAF type for a bottle of single malt! Still have it somewhere!

I also have one of those RAF-issue, solid teak book-case/writing desks which is used on a daily basis. It's as good as the day it was made.

[barnstormer1968]

OHP 15M
The hats in your link are very good indeed. If one needed to stand out from the
crowd, then they would be the ones to choose:ok:

[kiwibrit]

I still have my parade hat - Bates - still in its Bates box somewhere - unused since 1992. Bates hats were far superior than anything else.

[wokawoka]

Try contacting Gieves and Hawks (Think it's Saville Row) and ask for a Garry Carr.
He sells the Mac hat that was designed by one of our colleages who is very much into his tweed, uniform, old england, drives a morgan etc.....
It is designed to be rolled up and put in your flying suit pocket without being creased or damaged. Excellent for us chaps who do not want to wear a beret when we go for a night stop somewhere.
However it will set you back £205, though 10% goes to RAFA.

It is worth it and is the copy of the hats you see in the old WW2 movies, edges falling nicely around your head as opposed to the Cranwell version of the Russian General's hat.

Wokawoka.

[E L Whisty]

Many thanks, one and all!

[SirToppamHat]

Not directly related to the original question, but I was surprised, just before Christmas, to note that the cost of Oxpats in Supply had been reduced from about £52 to about £44.

A few other things had dropped in price as well, but that was the one that caught my eye.

STH

[XL319]

Surely dont you get one issued with your uniform? I did..still got mine and my No 1, but they aint for sale :ugh:

[Tankertrashnav]

Officers issued with their uniform? Good God, what's the world coming to? Never happened in my day!

[Old-Duffer]

If Kiwibrit has the genuine article and not the mass produced Bates hat, to which I referred in an earlier post, then it will be worth a good deal of dosh (depending on size of course).

The thing that grips me ('cause I still wear the Firm's stuff in the VR(T)) is that if you leave a decent SD hat in the cloakroom of a mess, it's likely to go walkies whilst you're at lunch. At Cranwell not long ago, one of the senior DS had his (much treasured) greatcoat take a walk from the cloakroom - not likely to be a case of: 'sorry I picked up the wrong one' but it is probably sculling around somewhere, cut down into a 'British Warm'.

As an aside: I was a supernumerary officer at an AOCs parade and as I marched on, my brand new SD hat blew off in the wind and was promptly run over by the coach bringing people to the parade. Hat was duly retrieved by orderely and returned to my bonce but in v-sorry state. So far so good, as I was at the back. However, His Nibbs decided to inspect the supernumeraries 'cause we were all trainees. When he got to me, he said; "Your hat's a bloody disgrace, get a new one". I didn't seem the time or place to explain but the next time I met the great man, I didn't need a hat at all and apart from confirming who I was, I didn't have a speaking part, nor did he invite me to sit down and have a cup of coffee but I did notice his carpet was a bit threadbare!!

[A2QFI]

Re the suggestion that all SD hats are made in one location and given different labels I cannot be sure. However, a colleague at Cranwell allegedly found an R E City work ticket in a pocket of his Gieves No 1 uniform

[Fareastdriver]

Officers issued with their uniform? Good God, what's the world coming to? Never happened in my day!

Certainly happened in 1960. At South Cerney we were given £10 to purchase a hat, gloves and a pair of shoes. Bates, Moss Bros and Poulson would knock you back £12.10s.. Your No1 came from stores.

Some of my fellow cadets, ex-UAS APOs bought their own No1 and specified red lining a la Fighter Command. They, too, ended up as V force co-pilots.

[Vasco Sodcat]

Last October, prior to attending a graduation parade, I emailed Bates because I couldn't find a price for an SD hat online. I didn't even get a reply! :* Got a perfectly serviceable one from stores at a fraction of the price :ok:

[Talk Reaction]

Got a 'Patey' hat from Snaiths at Cranwell last year, only about £70 and much better quality than their own and far superior to the things stores sell!!

(Although a mate trawled thru the hats in stores and found a half descent one)

[Geehovah]

My RE City hat survived the years and will see me out on my last day in Service. It showing some flak damage on the peak but it evaded a few Stn Warrant Officers over the years.

37 years is good in anyone's book.

[Union Jack]

Although a mate trawled thru the hats in stores and found a half descent one

Presumably off the peg ....:)

Jack

[Biggles225]

I do hope that 'stores' isnt a euphemism for the hatracks! :uhoh:

[Champagne Anyone?]

I recently had occasion to contact Bates in order to purchase what would probably be my last service cap and had a lengthy discussion with a long standing member of staff there.

During the conversation it was disclosed that Bates have actually never made the RAF officers cap in the 35yrs the member of staff had been there and in fact, they are and always were, produced by Patey, who happen to be just around the corner.

I contacted Pateys to place an order and they confirmed this had always the case. They labelled them as Bates and then Bates in turn added their cut on top.

So the secrets out!!


And you can still order them!

[SASless]

Any truth they only come in Size 14 and up?

[Surplus]

During the conversation it was disclosed that Bates have actually never made the RAF officers cap in the 35yrs the member of staff had been there and in fact, they are and always were, produced by Patey, who happen to be just around the corner. That's not going to please the 'discerning' Bates devotees. :E

[reynoldsno1]

Them Bates hats were always called the "Bates Bashable" ISTR as they were amenable to being shaped to the users' 'ead.

I gave my "500 mission" hat to a young F/O when I left, as he apparently had admired my cranial creation from afar since arriving on the Sqn ...

[Four Types]

Approx 20 years ago when I was in need in a new No 1 titfer (the original one had done many hours stuffed down the side fuselage of a Shacklebomber) my friend's wife was working in clothing stores at RAFC Cranwell. She would phone us up when the latest round of recruits had been chopped and handed back their kit. A quick dash to stores, try a few on and paid £30 (?) for one that fitted the best (I had to have a haircut each time so it worked out well). Still have it gathering dust on top of the wardrobe.:)

[Party Animal]

STH,


Not directly related to the original question, but I was surprised, just before Christmas, to note that the cost of Oxpats in Supply had been reduced from about £52 to about £44.




How bizarre. Where I languish, the cost of Oxpats from Supply has dramatically increased from £58 to £135!! Good job my original 80's variants are still holding together!

[Danny42C]

Bright & McIvor, Grand Hotel Arcade, Calcutta (1943), Rs.28 = £2/2/-.
(Not bad, would translate as £80 today, or £96 VAT-inc. Not too far out from today's prices).

Sad to hear that all Bates's were "ringers". Last Patey/Bates bought ca. 1967, around £5 as I recall. Again, inflation plus VAT would be about £110 today, still level-pegging.

"The label's but the guinea stamp - a hat's a hat for a' that". (pace Burns)

D.

[MPN11]

Oh dear, I bought a cheap one. Don't ask how much it was, but an Alkit was cheaper than a posh Bates ... and I was only Air Traffic anyway. So Messrs Alkit duly provided.

So it was soft and comfortable, but started to lose shape (i.e. Looked 'operational') of its own accord. And after a tour in Singapore it really looked quite weary ... to the point that certain senior officers make pointed suggestions about a replacement being required. However, all was not lost: a couple of years after that I took up Service Weapon shooting at Bisley. Long before issued combat kit ... you wore what you could scrounge from the RAF Regt, or wore an old blue uniform, etc. So my old Alkit SD hat came out of retirement, as it was excellent for keeping the sun out of my eyes, and you could wear ear defenders over it comfortably ... and it soldiered on in that role
into the late 80s.

At this stage, DPM was in issue, and a beret should really be worn ("But, Sir, only airmen and Regt officers wear berets"). And eventually the word came down the line from a 4-star that a certain officer should stop wearing "that hat". Another retirement was advisable.

Until late in 1993, when on my last working day in the RAF I gathered up my very faded, limp and slightly frayed Alkit ... and in a gesture of defiance wore it to work. From my Graduation Parade, through tropic rain and sun, to temperate rain and sun on ranges, it staggered along for 29 years. It is still in the attic ... how could I discard such an old friend? :cool:

[LooseArticle]

get 2.............and be a 2 hat!;)

[Chugalug2]

Is nothing sacred? Bates stood renowned within the RAF as the hat of style. Now we learn that it was a ringer, pretending to be what it was not, a sham, a mere artifice. I feel betrayed, used and sullied!
MPN11, your mention of the critical comments of Senior Officers reminds me of an AOC's Inspection at RAF Colerne. Said VSO stopped in front of a certain Hastings captain (who will remain nameless) on parade and enquired, "Haven't you got a better hat than that?". The response was,"Yes Sir, but I save that one for special occasions". Lack of appreciation ensued.

[teeteringhead]

enquired, "Haven't you got a better hat than that?". The response was,"Yes Sir, but I save that one for special occasions". ... similarly, one recalls a (perhaps apochryphal?) exchange between Very Senior Officer and Supplementary List (remember that!) Pilot:

VSO: Flying Officer!! Is that your only hat?

SLP: No Sir!! .. (long pause) .. it's my best hat!

[Al-bert]

AOC's buffet lunch in crewroom (AOC an ex staish from way back when):
AOC to Al ' what? you're still flying Al and no ground tours - how I envy you guys'
Al to AOC 'well sir, if you'd played your cards right, you could have been spec aircrew too'

Sense of humour failure caption illuminated!! :ok:

ps my best hat by Gieves - will sell cheap.

[oxenos]

Like MPN11, I had a very tired SD hat I wore on the range. Last day of a competion the AVM and his wife turned up for prize giving. "What a fine hat" she said, " was it your father's?"