View Full Version : SIA Speed on Final
Angle of Attack
31st Dec 2009, 11:48
Just wondering if SIA have a delayed flap policy on final or if they always drag it in at minimum speed on a 10 mile final. Often I have been forced to slow up because a 744 or 777 is at 155 knots at 4000ft while I'm planning a 230 knot at 1500ft approach in my 73. Is it just me that SIA clogs up arrivals?
While I agree that 155kts at 4000ft is quite slow, dont you think 230kts at 1500ft(4-5nm out) is a little excessive?
Nil defects
31st Dec 2009, 12:41
I don't fly for SIA but I am sure like my company they have a stabilised approach policy with a maximum speed at 10 miles of 180 kts. And that will normally mean fully configured at 1500 feet to be fully stabilised at 1000 feet with Vref+5. (Around 150kts +-5)
MetoPower
31st Dec 2009, 13:39
No one clogs up anything.
Most companies around the world have the policy of being stable by 1000ft IMC (500ft VMC) and probably your as well (should be in your AOM).
One has to remember that a 747 has a bit more inertia than a 737, and that combined with an average human brain time reaction to the unexpected may lead a few to show some respect to the third (vertical), and fourth (speed) dimensions for which we (pilots) have not being created to evolve in.
I find myself regularly behind 747’s on approach (including SIA) and never experienced any problem, but having some wide body experience (and over 30 years on the job) helps me anticipate accordingly (as I know what they will do within the next few minutes).
And yes, 230 IAS at 1500ft is definitely excessive even in a 737 (that I currently fly)
This is a culture issue; the only one you impress is yourself.
slayerdude
31st Dec 2009, 13:44
AOA: delayed flaps or drag in ?????? you've answered it obviously.... good detective work..... now it's time to go fly for a proper airline
GlueBall
31st Dec 2009, 14:46
During busy periods at large airports, approach speeds are regulated for sequencing; typically 180kts to 10miles final, and thereafter 160kts to 4 miles final. 230kts at 1500' would be excessive for any airplane at any airport, unless you're making a high speed pass.
stable approach
1st Jan 2010, 01:44
Current SIA policy (for 777, not sure about the 744) calls for gear down, flap 20 at 2500', and flap 30 at 2000' to be stabilised by 1000'. It used to be 500' lower, but the FDAP was showing too many unstabilised approaches. Bear in mind that if it's in the morning, the guys have been flying for 7 1/2-8 hours through the night before making the approach, and often will be making their first approach at that airport. The route network on the 777 is huge - I have averaged about one trip per year to each of the Australian destinations, so most of the guys will not be as comfortable as the average domestic Aussie pilot at your airport, and will probably prefer to err on the conservative side.
Statisical analysis of industry wide incidents and accidents after landing show overruns primarily associated with an unstabilised approach.
Consequently, SIA and its subsidiaries have established a SOP for all approaches.
Our stabilised approach criteria requires the airplane to be in the landing configuration on speed, on profile and in the slot at 1000' AGL (VMC or IMC).
The only exception is when conducting a visual approach or sidestep approach from a change of runway (for eg., in LAX, DFW, ORD etc) in which case the airplane must be in the landing configuration on speed, on profile and in the slot by 500' AGL and 300' AGL respectively.
Additionally, when below 5000' AGL on approach, airspeed must not be greater than 250 kts unless ATC require a greater speed, and must be not greater than 210kts below 3000' AGL.
Simple stuff. Fit that into your SIA approach profile and there won't be any FDAP triggers to explain. It's all about minimising the statistical probability of an overrun.
AoA has raised an interesting profile for New Year's reading.
It reminds me of an A320 accident in Bahrain...
When I fly behind an SIA aircraft I feel their approach speed is too slow. Being stable at 1000 feet doesn't mean that you should be at minimum clean at 20 miles and start using flaps at 18. 230 knots at 1500 feet is not that fast, all depends how far you are at 1500 feet . . . Strong headwinds should also be taken into consideration . . .
expat400
1st Jan 2010, 08:19
There are two options here. AoA and Novmo are either teenagers dreaming of becoming pilots or they are trying to wind you up.
Let the thread die.
expat400
1st Jan 2010, 08:23
By the way, I think I got it now. AoA is the Indonesian Yogokarta Captain ...
minibus330
1st Jan 2010, 08:23
Every company has their SOP and policies. If your company allows you to be at 230kts at 1500 ft, then you are entitled to do so. But pilots in SIA and other established airlines are duty bound to comply with SOPs. Otherwise disciplinary action could be taken against them.
Again, ATC will determine the speeds to be flown if traffic is heavy. In many airports speed limits are imposed to manage traffic flow unless ATC determines otherwise for separation purposes. Yeah, I have done 250 kts on downwind in Chicago O'Hare on a B744, but that is becoz' ATC requires me to do so due to traffic separation.
Airmanship plays an important part as well. In airports where speed control is not mandatory, if one sights traffic ahead on their TCAS system or visually, one should adjust his speed accordingly to allow proper separation. If you are number one for approach, then by all means, keep up your speed (within SOPs and ATC's approval of course) to minimise delays.
PK-KAR
1st Jan 2010, 09:23
Often I have been forced to slow up because a 744 or 777 is at 155 knots at 4000ft while I'm planning a 230 knot at 1500ft approach in my 73.
At how many NM from the slope intercept would that be? (for the 230kts @1500?) or 230/1500 @ 10NM from runway? Wanna go take a dip or go fishing at the pond on the far side of the runway mate?
When I fly behind an SIA aircraft I feel their approach speed is too slow.
Try flying behind Garuda... 210 KIAS below 20,000... but, at times... if say they're held at 7000, and get told to go down to 2000... U'll see them dive @300KIAS or so :o ... the reason being many new FOs I'm told, keep SPD on 210 on the MCP, but select V/S at 3000fpm... *puke*
Since the JOG accident... "strict adherence to stabilized approach policy"... so, the old timers think... "Hey, we get paid per actual flight hours... let's do 210 from 20,000 all the way!" Now, that's holding things up for a little "spare change" ! :=
Let us Stabilize by 1000AGL if not BRavo Lima will issue 'warning' letter and profanity.
:ok:
a345xxx
2nd Jan 2010, 02:49
this is just a wind up thread or a post from an inexperienced pilot.
With the advent of TCAS, its quite easy to spot traffic trends and position oneself in the scheme of any approach in most places. The exception being high density airfields like Kennedy, or Chicago, etc.
The one thing you do not want to do as an international aviator, is to expect others to think, or perform the way YOU feel it should be done.
The Dominican
2nd Jan 2010, 07:45
We get paid by the minute AOA, chill:ok:
Captain Oryx
2nd Jan 2010, 09:37
"We get paid by the minute AOA, chill."
Not to mention the extra meal allowance if you arrive outside the "window".:ok:
gengis
2nd Jan 2010, 10:27
155 KIAS @ 4000 ft is too slow for both 747 & 777. Not unless ATC required it.
FlyingAkhi
2nd Jan 2010, 16:41
155 kts at 4000'... mmmmm. Give them some slack guys.
They're Singaporeans!
:ugh: harharhar
etops777
3rd Jan 2010, 01:41
155 kts at 4000'... mmmmm. Give them some slack guys.
They're Singaporeans!
Just exactly what do you mean?
PK-KAR :Try flying behind Garuda... 210 KIAS below 20,000... but, at times... if say they're held at 7000, and get told to go down to 2000... U'll see them dive @300KIAS or so :o ... the reason being many new FOs I'm told, keep SPD on 210 on the MCP, but select V/S at 3000fpm... *puke*
for sure, you're not being told, you're being bullsh_t !!
saying 210KIAS blo FL200, you better have FOQA record.
do you really have Mach Airspeed indicator ?
PK-KAR
3rd Jan 2010, 16:50
for sure, you're not being told, you're being bullsh_t !!
Well, if the guys who told me fly under GA/GIA flight numbers, carry GA ID cards who flies PK-G** for a living... is it as you say... bullsh_t?
If I was the following traffic behind, at the same flight level in descent, at 10NM behind, and we had to go to select 210KIAS in order not to converge and later requested to deviate... is it as you say bullsh_t?
Maybe you should talk on your fellow former colleague D___nt__o... if I'm bullsh_tt_ng, then U're mate and his other current and former colleagues are too then...
SPD SEL 210 V/S -3000... welcome to the GA way! It's good that not all of them does it that way, and I hope that includes you. ;)
Just following policy or atc speed restrictions.
Better safe than sorry.
or else its coffee up on the 4th
if say they're held at 7000, and get told to go down to 2000... U'll see them dive @300KIAS or so :o ... the reason being many new FOs I'm told, keep SPD on 210 on the MCP, but select V/S at 3000fpm
this is also bullsh_t, after a brief level off with 210 knots, you won't get near 300 knots with 3000 fpm V/S to loose 5000ft, UNLESS you put some N1.
If I was the following traffic behind, at the same flight level in descent, at 10NM behind, and we had to go to select 210KIAS in order not to converge and later requested to deviate... is it as you say bullsh_t
at a certain point .. YES! HE is your traffic, not the other way around.
you don't seem to know flying, boy! let alone current on transport-jet.
there are a lot of fake pilots, don't listen to them.
slayerdude
4th Jan 2010, 07:48
This thread is obviously a windup by AOA, NOVMO and FlyingAkhi......
well done for provoking thoughts.... now boys leave the heavy metal flying to us and please please go get proper flying jobs......things are indeed looking up in 2010
FlyingAkhi
4th Jan 2010, 13:19
good detective work..... now it's time to go fly for a proper airline
well done for provoking thoughts.... now boys leave the heavy metal flying to us and please please go get proper flying jobs
ClaSSSiC!!! :D
SSS: Singaporean Superiority-Complex Syndrome
typical :hmm:
flying akhi, you nabeh, dont waste everybodys time on this site with your cock. go play with yourself if you have nothing better to do.
9v-SKA
5th Jan 2010, 06:54
SSS: Singaporean Superiority-Complex Syndrome
I beg to differ.. In my opinion unhappiness or soreness of TS for having to following behind SIA.
I just dislike people who think that they are too good to follow behind someone. If ATC is not complaining? Why should you? If they are really holding up traffic, ATC would request for them to speed up.
Not all Singaporeans have Superiority Complex. And even then. Very few has. So please grow up and stop second guessing..
I guess all of us pilots know that in aviation, ego kills...
slayerdude
5th Jan 2010, 09:27
FlyingAkhi.... my location might say singapore... how ever the assumption that I am singaporean is flawed.... not good detective work.....
As for the SSS.... i have yet to meet one....however I admit I suffer a complex
TEPS
The Employed Pilot Syndrome........
again dude..... go get a proper flying job!!!
FlyingAkhi
5th Jan 2010, 17:40
Hey, I was just sharing my thoughts on the factors that could be the reason towards your ultra-conservative habits. There's no need to get emotional.
dont waste everybodys time on this site with your cock. go play with yourself if you have nothing better to do.
It does sound fun but you could have suggested that through private message. I would have done it without you telling the whole forum. Now everyone's gonna know. Me shy!!! :O
I admit I suffer a complex
TEPS
The Employed Pilot Syndrome........
again dude..... go get a proper flying job!!! :yuk:
I feel like throwing up now. I'd appreciate a Singapore resident's perspective on a PROPER FLYING JOB please?
Honestly I have great admiration for the people who work real hard hoping that one day they could get into an airline. Are they not already doing proper jobs?
Since you went through the whole SIA Cadet Scheme up to the level you are at now, you don't qualify to talk about a PROPER FLYING JOB as all you've done is "play safe and lick ass" your way up.
mmm... arrogant bastards... :hmm:
Hi FlyingAkhi,
If you were rejected during your assessment in the past, I recommend to send your application to SIA again. Jokilah is no longer there :}
Ok-lah, cheers .
slayerdude
6th Jan 2010, 03:11
FlyingAkhi..... another incorrect assumption... I was not from the SIA cadet scheme!!!!!! You probably also assumed that I am with SIA.....
If you are indeed an aviator... you would know that assumputions are the biggest mother of all #$%*up!!!!!
again I reiterate: please go get a proper flying job!!! and that doesn't just mean flying in the airlines.... !!!!!!! time to grow up
230kts at 1500' would be excessive for any airplane at any airport, unless you're making a high speed pass.
Yup, gotta agree.
My trusty TriStar will do 210 knots 'til 5 miles in a pinch, but 230 is stretching it a bit...a big bit.
Sounds like sim retraining bait.
How did this thread deteriorate so quickly and so thoroughly?
PPRuNe is a mess. My father-in-law brags how he starts threads, for god's sake. He, like many others it seems, is retired, knows absolutely nothing about flying and yet maintains a PPRuNe 'handle'.
There are few pilots left here to contribute. Those that do tear their hair out at the stupidity and lack of logic employed by contributors who have no idea about aviation - in general or in minute detail.
Moderators wax on about how the site needs contributions from non-aviators, which translates to 'we're ineffective at stopping this trend'. To that end, they're right. Which serves to prove by extension that this site fails pilots.
SIA is a fine company, populated by diligent pilots who strive to maintain a high standard. This thread does nothing to reflect that.
CAPTAIN WOOBLAH
7th Jan 2010, 07:35
I concur. With the aforementioned post.
Wooblah.
slayerdude
7th Jan 2010, 09:32
I am just as guilty for the degeneration... however I concur to reconcur with forementioned post.....
parabellum
7th Jan 2010, 10:29
Well said 4PW, well said indeed. You will have noticed that there is a group who will willingly 'bag' either SIA or Singapore ATC but they rarely come armed with facts!
Flaperon777
8th Jan 2010, 02:28
There are two modes of establishing our reputation: to be praised by honest men,and to be abused by rogues.
It is best however,to secure the former,because it will invariably be accompanied by the latter.
I think we have seen a little of both here...
Cheers now..
:)
poleposition
12th Jan 2010, 01:24
WTF has this whole issue gotta do with Singaporeans being arrogant?
Taking a swing at some nationality only puts yrself and yr countrymen in shame.
Tsk tsk... so juvenile and immature. :rolleyes:
southernmtn
12th Jan 2010, 05:52
This latest post by novmo just proves that he/she is not even a beginner of heavy jet flying nor acquiring any air experience at all, PERIOD!
He/she is just another JAFO!
LG SING
12th Jan 2010, 07:24
They are not all Singaporeans! Some of us are Aussies too!
bobmarley
17th Jan 2010, 11:30
gentlemen
i have noticed a lot of experienced guys are following this tread, based on the responses...and this wud be the best place to get advice on an issue....i have heard from a few senior pilots, with varying degrees of conviction, that an airline captain will still retain his rank if he switches to another fleet in another company...my question is, if a fresh faced cpl holder joins an airlines 320 fleet, gets his command in 5 years, serves 3 more years as a cpt and then decides to move to a wide body fleet of a diff airline, would he remain a captain? Is there any possibility that he may be downgraded to an SFO? thanks in advance guys...
yes Bob, the pay that counts !